Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29

Thread: Inequality in Bronze Age Europe

  1. #1
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,639
    Points
    301,461
    Level
    100
    Points: 301,461, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.

    Inequality in Bronze Age Europe

    It's based on samples from Corded Ware, BB, and early Bronze southern Germany. I'm trying to figure out some way of getting access to the whole paper.

    See:
    Alissa Mittnick et al (Krause and Haak)

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...cience.aax6219

    "Abstract

    Revealing and understanding the mechanisms behind social inequality in prehistoric societies is a major challenge. By combining genome wide data, isotopic evidence as well as anthropological and archaeological data, we go beyond the dominating supra-regional approaches in archaeogenetics to shed light on the complexity of social status, inheritance rules and mobility during the Bronze Age. We apply a deep micro-regional approach and analyze genome wide data of 104 human individuals deriving from farmstead-related cemeteries from the Late Neolithic to the Middle Bronze Age in southern Germany. Our results reveal that individual households lasting several generations consisted of a high-status core family and unrelated low-status individuals, a social organization accompanied by patrilocality and female exogamy, and the stability of this system over 700 years."


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    it's in line with what they already found out about megalithic farmers
    and it probably already existed long before

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,639
    Points
    301,461
    Level
    100
    Points: 301,461, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Exactly.

    Story as old as time...well, practically.

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,639
    Points
    301,461
    Level
    100
    Points: 301,461, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Razib Khan posted a graphic.



    As we've discussed before, all the initial talk about "wipe outs" or replacements as the result of steppe intrusion were very overblown. At least in Southern Germany, already by the Middle Bronze Age steppe ancestry was down to what, 27%? Add in the WHG, and these people were still majority Anatolian Neolithic, something like a 60% Anatolian Neolithic/40% other split.

  5. #5
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    288
    Points
    4,674
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,674, Level: 20
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 376
    Overall activity: 68.0%


    Country: Uruguay



    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Razib Khan posted a graphic.



    As we've discussed before, all the initial talk about "wipe outs" or replacements as the result of steppe intrusion were very overblown. At least in Southern Germany, already by the Middle Bronze Age steppe ancestry was down to what, 27%? Add in the WHG, and these people were still majority Anatolian Neolithic, something like a 60% Anatolian Neolithic/40% other split.
    Something that has dissapeared can't come back.
    So it didn't dissapear. But maybe it became invisible for the record.
    Maybe the record are just elite burials.
    And after time local DNA seeped through to the elite.

  7. #7
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    288
    Points
    4,674
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,674, Level: 20
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 376
    Overall activity: 68.0%


    Country: Uruguay



    table : 1 in supplemental
    y haplogroup and mtdna types in lech valley
    on y haplogroup: i see majority r1b and 3G cases and some I

    https://i.imgur.com/UFp4EtP.png

    continue of this table :

    https://i.imgur.com/BLxURpf.png


    https://i.imgur.com/Ztdb8PO.png
    Last edited by kingjohn; 13-10-19 at 21:27.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class500 Experience Points1 year registered
    PaterKeklos's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-10-17
    Posts
    25
    Points
    572
    Level
    6
    Points: 572, Level: 6
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 178
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L497
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b

    Ethnic group
    Halstatt Celtic
    Country: United States



    So I don't see a tremendous amount of Y-Chromosome G2a or J2. Does this imply that the Neolithic Farmer males had already been killed off by this point and we're seeing social stratification to the point of possible slavery amongst populations of R1b males?
    Last edited by PaterKeklos; 13-10-19 at 21:18.

  9. #9
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    288
    Points
    4,674
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,674, Level: 20
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 376
    Overall activity: 68.0%


    Country: Uruguay



    1 members found this post helpful.
    i think of the CT/ BT cases could infact be j2 or other G
    so those CT /BTcases are probably low coverage individuals

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class500 Experience Points1 year registered
    PaterKeklos's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-10-17
    Posts
    25
    Points
    572
    Level
    6
    Points: 572, Level: 6
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 178
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L497
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b

    Ethnic group
    Halstatt Celtic
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i think of the CT/ BT cases could infact be j2 or other G
    so those CT /BTcases are probably low coverage individuals
    So then G2a and J2a were most likely slaves?

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-02-10
    Posts
    144
    Points
    10,627
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,627, Level: 31
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 623
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

    Ethnic group
    Appalachian American
    Country: USA - West Virginia



    2 members found this post helpful.
    For quick reference of geographic locations, cultures, and haplogroups...
    # Sample Name Country analysis label genetics Cluster PCA/Admixture genetic sex mtDNA haplogroup Y haplogroup genetic comments
    1 AY2001.A0101.TF1.1 Russia Steppe Maykop Steppe F T2e
    2 AY2003.A0101.TF1.1 Russia Steppe Maykop Steppe F H2a1
    3 I1720 Russia Maykop Caucasus M HV ?
    4 BU2001.A0101 Russia North Caucasus Steppe M R1b1a2a2
    5 GW1001.A0101 Russia North Caucasus Steppe M U2e1b R1b1a2a2
    6 I1723 Russia North Caucasus Steppe M U5b2a1a R1b1a1a2a
    7 IV3002.A0101 Russia Steppe Maykop outlier Steppe M X1'2'3 ?
    8 KBD001 Russia Late North Caucasus Steppe M I4a R1b1a2 2nd degree relative of KBD002
    9 KBD002.A0101 Russia Late North Caucasus Steppe F W1+119 2nd degree relative of KBD001
    10 ARM001.A0101 Armenia Kura-Araxes Caucasus F R1a1
    11 ARM002.A0101; ARM003 Armenia Kura-Araxes Caucasus M K3 G2b same individual, merge bams!
    12 I6268 Russia Maykop Novosvobodnaya Caucasus M R1a J2a1
    13 I6267 Russia Maykop Novosvobodnaya Caucasus F T2c1
    14 I6270 Russia Maykop Novosvobodnaya Caucasus M U1b ?
    15 I6266 Russia Maykop Novosvobodnaya Caucasus M X2f J2a1
    16 I6272 Russia Maykop Novosvobodnaya Caucasus M U1b1 G2a2a
    17 KDC001.A0101 Russia MBA North Caucasus Caucasus M X2i J2b
    18 KDC002.A0101 Russia MBA North Caucasus Caucasus F HV1a1
    19 LYG001.A0101 Russia North Caucasus Steppe M H13a1a2 R1b1a2
    20 I2051 Russia Dolmen LBA Caucasus M H6a1a2a J
    21 MK3003.A0101 Russia Catacomb Steppe F U4a2
    22 MK5012.A0101 Russia Catacomb Steppe M U5a1b1e ?
    23 MK5008.B0101 Russia Late Maykop Caucasus M T1a2 ? 42K SNPs
    24 MK5004 Russia Late Maykop Caucasus M T2al L 2nd degree relative of MK5001
    25 MK5001 Russia Late Maykop Caucasus M K1a4 L 2nd degree relative of MK5004
    26 MK5007.B0101 Russia Maykop Caucasus M U5a1b1
    27 MK5009.A0101 Russia North Caucasus Steppe M R1a1a R1b1a2
    28 MK5005.C0101 Russia Steppe Maykop Steppe F two lineages Steppe Maykop , but mtDNA contamination
    29 NV3001 Russia Lola Steppe M R1b Q1a2
    30 OSS002.B0101 Russia Maykop Caucasus M I5 J X contaminated !
    31 OSS001.A0101 Russia Maykop Caucasus F J2a1
    32 PG2001 Russia Eneolithic steppe Steppe M I3a R1b1
    33 PG2004 Russia Eneolithic steppe Steppe M H2 R1b1
    34 PG2002.A0101 Russia North Caucasus Steppe F U1a1a3
    35 RK1003.C0101 Russia North Caucasus Steppe F R1a1a
    36 RK1007.A0101 Russia Yamnaya Caucasus Steppe F T2a1
    37 RK1001.C0101 Russia Yamnaya Caucasus Steppe M U5a1d R1b1a2
    38 RK4002.B0101 Russia Catacomb Steppe M U4d3 R1b1a2
    39 RK4001.A0101 Russia Catacomb Steppe M U5a1i R1b1a2
    40 SA6003.B0101 Russia Catacomb Steppe M U2e3a R1b1a2
    41 SA6001.A0101 Russia Steppe Maykop Steppe F U7b
    42 SA6004 Russia Steppe Maykop Steppe M U7b Q1a2
    43 SA6013.B0101 Russia Steppe Maykop outlier Steppe M I5b R1
    44 SA6010.A0101 Russia Yamnaya Caucasus Steppe M U5a1g ?
    45 I6278 Russia Dolmen BA Caucasus M T1a2 ..
    46 I6281 Russia Dolmen BA Caucasus F U2e1 ..
    47 SIJ003.A0101 Russia Late Maykop Caucasus F U4c1 1st degree relative of SIJ002, 1st degree relative of SIJ001
    48 SIJ002.A0101 Russia Late Maykop Caucasus M U4c1 L 1st degree relative of SIJ003, 2nd degree relative of SIJ001
    49 SIJ001.A01(SA6002.A01) Russia Late Maykop Caucasus F U4c1 1st degree relative of SIJ003, 2nd degree relative of SIJ002
    50 I2055 Russia Eneolithic Caucasus Caucasus M R1a J 1st degree relative of I2056
    51 I2056 Russia Eneolithic Caucasus Caucasus M R1a J2a
    52 I1722 Russia Eneolithic Caucasus Caucasus F R1a 1st degree relative of I2056
    53 VEK006.A0101 Russia Kura-Araxes Caucasus F U4a2 1st/2nd degree relative of VEK007/VEK009?
    54 VEK007.A0101; VEK009 Russia Kura-Araxes Caucasus M U4a2 J1 VEK007=VEK009, merge bams, 2nd degree relative of VEK006?
    55 VEK008.A0101 Russia Kura-Araxes Caucasus M U4a2 ?
    56 VJ1001 Russia Eneolithic steppe Steppe F T2a1b
    57 I2057 Russia Maykop Caucasus U Questionable, coverage too low
    58 ZO2002.C0101 Russia Yamnaya Caucasus Steppe F [email protected]

  12. #12
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,639
    Points
    301,461
    Level
    100
    Points: 301,461, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I would suggest checking the archaeological information for status versus non status burials and then comparing to yDna before jumping to all sorts of conclusions.

  13. #13
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Dagne's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-04-11
    Location
    Vilnius
    Posts
    413
    Points
    11,728
    Level
    32
    Points: 11,728, Level: 32
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Ethnic group
    Lithuanian
    Country: Lithuania



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Exactly.

    Story as old as time...well, practically.
    Not with Hunter Gatherers, I suppose

  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Dagne's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-04-11
    Location
    Vilnius
    Posts
    413
    Points
    11,728
    Level
    32
    Points: 11,728, Level: 32
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Ethnic group
    Lithuanian
    Country: Lithuania



    double post

  15. #15
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,639
    Points
    301,461
    Level
    100
    Points: 301,461, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    Not with Hunter Gatherers, I suppose
    I'm not so sure.

    What happened to all the C that the Paleolithic Europeans carried once the I2 "Mesolithic" men arrived? There's barely a trace of that Paleolithic HG genetic material left in Europeans.

    We could also take a look at what happened to Neanderthals.

    Almost makes me rethink the whole "toxic masculinity" thing.

  16. #16
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,639
    Points
    301,461
    Level
    100
    Points: 301,461, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Something that has dissapeared can't come back.
    So it didn't dissapear. But maybe it became invisible for the record.
    Maybe the record are just elite burials.
    And after time local DNA seeped through to the elite.
    Yes, that was my point, as it was my point way back when the Haak paper first came out when I said the title of the paper was probably over the top and they might come to regret it as an overstatement.

    You only had to look at the percentages of Anatolian Neolithic in modern central and northwestern Europe. There was no new colonization. It had to have been there all along, although the female/male skew in uniparentals tells its own tale.

    The only places in Europe where Anatolian Neolithic drops way down are in Northeastern Europe where practically no one was living before the arrival of the steppe people.

  17. #17
    Banned Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    288
    Points
    4,674
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,674, Level: 20
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 376
    Overall activity: 68.0%


    Country: Uruguay



    i am a little surprised that there is no E
    not even the european e-v13 ?????
    in the table 1 i posted

  18. #18
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,639
    Points
    301,461
    Level
    100
    Points: 301,461, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i am a little surprised that there is no E
    not even the european e-v13 ?????
    in the table 1 i posted
    I've always wondered whether the E-V13 in Southern Germany, Austria and the Tyrol, and the corresponding high levels of "Dinarics" phenotypically was the result of hangovers from the Neolithic Age or whether it was Roman Era incursion. Perhaps for uniparentals it's more the latter. There's also all those very "Roman" looking ancient samples in Szolad to consider. I'm closer to them than to a lot of modern Italian populations.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-02-10
    Posts
    144
    Points
    10,627
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,627, Level: 31
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 623
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

    Ethnic group
    Appalachian American
    Country: USA - West Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not so sure.

    What happened to all the C that the Paleolithic Europeans carried once the I2 "Mesolithic" men arrived? There's barely a trace of that Paleolithic HG genetic material left in Europeans.

    We could also take a look at what happened to Neanderthals.

    Almost makes me rethink the whole "toxic masculinity" thing.
    The earliest populations are on the bottom of the dogpile of population replacement. Using a 90/10 split for each fused population after a successful demic replacement, the original host population genetics remaining would work out this way:
    Pop A (prior to first wave)-- 100%
    100 * .1
    After first wave-- 10%
    10 * .1
    After second wave-- 1%
    1 * .1
    After third wave-- .1%

    There is likely very little left from homo sapien sapien populations from Paleolthic, maybe nothing from Neanderthals of Western Europe, for this reason.
    Most of our Neanderthal was picked up >60 kya in the Levant as part of the founder OOA population. The Neanderthal of <30 kya in Western Europe may have been annihilated without genetic issue at this point. There's barely a trace of Paleolithic hunter gatherers, a little bit more for the more recent mesolthic migrants, and then more from Neolithic and Bronze Age newcomers. Now, there are new major demic movements, birth rate differences among populations, etc. It goes on and on. Right now, Paleolithic Europeans' genetic legacy is on the bottom of the dog pile (Western European Neanderthal already crushed beneath them) and new pops are piling on everyday. Sorry to see them go.

  20. #20
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,639
    Points
    301,461
    Level
    100
    Points: 301,461, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Razib Khan posted a graphic.



    As we've discussed before, all the initial talk about "wipe outs" or replacements as the result of steppe intrusion were very overblown. At least in Southern Germany, already by the Middle Bronze Age steppe ancestry was down to what, 27%? Add in the WHG, and these people were still majority Anatolian Neolithic, something like a 60% Anatolian Neolithic/40% other split.
    You have some objection to statements of fact, Messier? You have some data which contradicts the above?

    Do share.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    05-01-18
    Posts
    246
    Points
    2,012
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,012, Level: 12
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Irish/British
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by PaterKeklos View Post
    So then G2a and J2a were most likely slaves?
    Peasants, whose elites had been lopped off. Tenants, not slaves, who owed a portion of their production to their "laird".
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

  22. #22
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,409
    Points
    40,352
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,352, Level: 62
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 1,298
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    The earliest populations are on the bottom of the dogpile of population replacement. Using a 90/10 split for each fused population after a successful demic replacement, the original host population genetics remaining would work out this way:
    Pop A (prior to first wave)-- 100%
    100 * .1
    After first wave-- 10%
    10 * .1
    After second wave-- 1%
    1 * .1
    After third wave-- .1%

    There is likely very little left from homo sapien sapien populations from Paleolthic, maybe nothing from Neanderthals of Western Europe, for this reason.
    Most of our Neanderthal was picked up >60 kya in the Levant as part of the founder OOA population. The Neanderthal of <30 kya in Western Europe may have been annihilated without genetic issue at this point. There's barely a trace of Paleolithic hunter gatherers, a little bit more for the more recent mesolthic migrants, and then more from Neolithic and Bronze Age newcomers. Now, there are new major demic movements, birth rate differences among populations, etc. It goes on and on. Right now, Paleolithic Europeans' genetic legacy is on the bottom of the dog pile (Western European Neanderthal already crushed beneath them) and new pops are piling on everyday. Sorry to see them go.
    a bit simplistic, isnt it?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-02-10
    Posts
    144
    Points
    10,627
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,627, Level: 31
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 623
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

    Ethnic group
    Appalachian American
    Country: USA - West Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    a bit simplistic, isnt it?
    Sort of like your response. That post wasn't meant to be more than a simplified illustration of how the genetic contribution of original inhabitants diminishes or even perishes following successive migrations of later populations, each with reproductive advantages to the current, native populations they are subsuming. What do you want, an essay?

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-05-19
    Location
    Kabul
    Posts
    84
    Points
    642
    Level
    6
    Points: 642, Level: 6
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Eurasian
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    IE tribes who colonized W.Europe themselves were minority lineage in E.Europe so how did they manage to wipe out the local farmers to near extinction? IMHO it must have been founder effect of small tribe at the top of the power pyramid becoming dominant lineage over time instead of local farmer tribes being killed by invaders because its extremely hard to wage war from village to village which must have spread over thousands of miles of area. So popular beliefs of polygamy, mass killings of locals by new settlers in BA must be completely wrong for local farmers could have had advantage of 10-1 in numbers which would make it extremely strong defense-wise. When we talk of complete dominance of ydna E-M81 in N.Africa we always say founder effect phenomena yet in IEs case I don't know why people come to baseless conclusions of things like polygamy, mass murders which holds no weight IMHO. I even question the Yamna connection of bronze age IE settlers because they could well be from southern Balkans who could have been farmers themselves migrating with the ydna G tribes but in extremely low numbers we see some Caucasian admixture together with farmer admixture in Neolithic Balkans too so its not just yamna who possessed Caucasian admixture. If questoins of how 1% of population could become half of population without much bloodshed then please study Mtdna H's history in Europe which from 1% in Mesolithic became 22% in Neolithic then 44% in Iron age wow!

  25. #25
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,639
    Points
    301,461
    Level
    100
    Points: 301,461, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    So how come the farmer mtDna survived but the farmer yDna didn't?

    It won't wash, friend.

    Plus, it didn't just happen in Europe, it happened all over the world: Africa, Near East (not lots of G2a there except in the strongholds of the mountains is there?), China, Japan, you name it.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •