"Tombs of the family of Alexander the Great finally giving up their secrets"

Johane Derite

Regular Member
Messages
1,846
Reaction score
880
Points
113
Y-DNA haplogroup
E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
mtDNA haplogroup
U1a1a
"Tombs of the family of Alexander the Great finally giving up their secrets"

Quite cryptic. But some revealing things in this article. Greece apparantly has so far not allowed DNA testing of the most important bones.

Some excerpts:

"
The ages of the deceased in Tomb II were determined from wear and tear on bones: the main chamber contained a middle-aged male and the antechamber a far younger female. This narrowed down the list of kings and queens either side of Alexander?s reign.

But an ?unfortunate symmetry? obscured the background to the double burial in Tomb II?, says London-based historian David Grant who collaborated with the scientists studying the skeletal remains. This led to a ?battle of the bones? among historians, causing a rift which divided the academic community ?obsessed? on proving their identities.

The Tomb II occupants could either be Alexander?s father Philip II and his final teenage wife Cleopatra, or Philip?s half-witted son Arrhidaeus who was executed twenty years later when of similar age and with an equally young bride. Questions of ritual or forced suicide raised their head, because kings and queens rarely died together.

Philip II was a national hero who befitted such a tomb and he had seven wives we know of. But Grant?s research points out the elephant in the room: none of the ancient sources mentions any women being buried with Philip at Aegae. ?What superficially appears to be a two-phase construction of Tomb II, plus the different cremation conditions the female bones underwent, suggest she was buried later than the male in the still-empty or incomplete second chamber.?

On the other hand, Arrhidaeus and his young bride Adea-Eurydice were executed together by Alexander?s mother Olympias when she regained political control of the state capital. She also murdered Philip?s last wife, Cleopatra, along with her new-born child. This ?double assassination? of Arrhidaeus and Adea-Eurydice explains the ?double burial? given to them after Olympias was herself executed.

The Antikas team found new incontrovertible age evidence on previously unanalysed bones, as well as undocumented trauma, which further narrowed down the list of candidates. The woman?s pubic symphysis aged her at 32 +/- 2 years at death, ruling out Philip?s teenage wife Cleopatra and discounting Arrhidaeus and his wife completely.

Dispelling the case of ?archaeological gender bias? was an overlooked shinbone wound providing proof that the armour and weapons belonged to the women, because the unevenly sized gilded-bronze greaves were fashioned to fit her shortened deformed leg. She was, indeed, being honoured as a warrior at death.

A final ?identity-shattering? discovery was made by the Antikas team. ?Forgotten? and unanalysed skeletal remains from Tomb I were found in storage below the Vergina laboratory; they were probably consigned to thirty-five-years of obscurity in the aftermath of the ?great? Thessalonica earthquake of 20 June 1978 when the preservation of unlooted Tombs II and III was the focus of attention. These additional bones from Tomb I contained the remains of at least seven individuals, not just two adults and a baby.

The team?s finds were published in an academic journal 2015. Although hampered by underfunding and a lack of support from those fearing unwanted results, they continued to push for ?next-generation? forensics: DNA testing, radiocarbon dating, and stable isotope analysis on the Tomb II and Tomb III bones.

Permission was denied in 2016, Grant reveals. Instead, the scientists were allowed to test the scattered bones found in looted ?Tomb I?, but with no formal funding provided. Although these bones lay exposed in soil for over 2,000 years, dating and DNA results were successfully extracted, disproving yet more of the identity theories. Moreover, controversial leg bones, which supposedly evidenced the terrible a knee wound Philip may have suffered in Thrace, appeared to be ?intruders? from a completely different tomb. The results have yet to be published and Grant says they will amaze everyone.

What has become clear is that the great earthen tumulus at ancient Aegae was bitten into by looters on more than one occasion, and when exposed, Tomb I became a dumping ground for the dead.

Now Grant?s new book is revealing all, the pressure will certainly be on the Greek Ministry of Culture to take a new progressive stance on permitting the outstanding forensics on the ?royal? bones from the unlooted tombs. With the possible identities greatly narrowed down by the Antikas-team study, new DNA, radio carbon dating and stable isotope analysis of the ?king?, ?queen? and ?prince? may solve the puzzle once and for all."



LINK: https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blog...DbDv4sFtQ3kbswvlcldt9YmaI#eSYtf7LB6mS4M9V5.97
 
The non testing by the greek govnt, is due to...what if the findings state paeonian or dardanian....then the current nation of macedonia can claim more "rights" to this line
 
It's to be expected from Greece since they don't recognize minorities and want to assimilate everyone. I don't get it, a country with such beautiful history is bound to get foreigners who accepted Hellenism among their ranks and they should take pride in it.

On the other hand, there was a huge population shift from North to South everywhere in the Balkans so those ancient Macedonians could have ended up in modern Attiki or North Peloponnesos, thus the results will match much more with modern Greeks. Are they afraid they'll end up overlapping with Albanians or what? Because I don't think they fear North Macedonians due to their North-East European shift during the Middle Ages.

In any case, I hope they proceed "illegally" and provide us some y and audna results. As a history and genetics enthusiast I'm really excited to see the results, I don't really care who they overlapped more.
 
The biggest shock from this would be if what has been promoted as Phillip's tomb/remains belong to Arrhidaeus as Grant is suggesting.
 
The biggest shock from this would be if what has been promoted as Phillip's tomb/remains belong to Arrhidaeus as Grant is suggesting.
Indeed. And why isn't anyone mentioning Cynane the half-sister of Alexander who was trained by her mother Audata (Illyrian princess) in martial arts the Illyrian way, a tradition she passed on to her own daughter Adea-Eurydice?

There's a lot of speculation over this mysterious Scythian woman, but we know that Cynane met her end by Alketas (Perdikas brother) on her way to marry Adea to marry Arrhidaeus, while both Adea-Eurydice and Philip Arrhidaeus were killed by Olympias and all 3 were burried in Aegae.

Wikipedia (being lazy): "Audata trained her daughter in riding, hunting, and fighting in the Illyrian tradition. Cynane continued unmarried, and employed herself in the education of her daughter, Adea or Eurydice, whom she is said to have trained, after the manner of her own education, in martial exercises. Polyaenus writes, "Cynane, the daughter of Philip was famous for her military knowledge: she conducted armies, and in the field charged at the head of them. In an engagement with the Illyrians, she with her own hand slew Caeria their queen; and with great slaughter defeated the Illyrian army." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynane


 
Right, I misread the part about the "amazonian" woman. He is suggesting that the age of the woman warrior cancels out both Phillip and Arrhideus as a possibility. The only possibility then is that this is Cynane's tomb, making the man Amyntas?
 
Absent some miracle discovery, no one is ever going to know who they were...
 
If they used Public Money, People are justified to demand / insist for transparency.
 
Last edited:
Absent some miracle discovery, no one is ever going to know who they were...

You mean that they did not have tombstones clearly labeling who's who?
 
A woman warrior from that time frame with such a venerated tomb can only be Cynane tbh. She commanded whole armies.
 
there is not a chance to be Κυννα,

Kynna was killed much before Kassandros brought her bones to Aiges,

the woman is the Scythian wife-bodyguard of Phillip 2nd.
 
The non testing by the greek govnt, is due to...what if the findings state paeonian or dardanian....

Even if that were true. How is it exactly that you can distinguish Paeonian DNA 4th century B.C. from Ancient Greek DNA 4th century B.C.? If you exclude medieval migrations, the South Balkans would be mostly identical. It is fairly acceptable to have some small gradients of variety within a people. Culture and language in that case are the determening factors.

The whole point for those who argued that Ancient Macedonians were supposed to be different biologically, is that Ancient Macedonians must have had a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Ancient Greeks altogether. In fact, if the Ancient Macedonians do hypothetically have a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Greeks. Then they are probably not related to anyone in the region to begin with. That includes Paeonians.

We have come to the point of splitting hairs sothat some modern nations adjecent to Greece can claim some of the Ancient Macedonian heritage. In that case, I argue, they can claim all Ancient Greek history altogether if they want. They have biological ancestors who are genetically identical to them. In return I would say that we ought not act childish and rob those ancient Greek people of their Hellenic cultural elements absent evidence.
 
Even if that were true. How is it exactly that you can distinguish Paeonian DNA 4th century B.C. from Ancient Greek DNA 4th century B.C.? If you exclude medieval migrations, the South Balkans would be mostly identical. It is fairly acceptable to have some small gradients of variety within a people. Culture and language in that case are the determening factors.

The whole point for those who argued that Ancient Macedonians were supposed to be different biologically, is that Ancient Macedonians must have had a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Ancient Greeks altogether. In fact, if the Ancient Macedonians do hypothetically have a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Greeks. Then they are probably not related to anyone in the region to begin with. That includes Paeonians.

We have come to the point of splitting hairs sothat some modern nations adjecent to Greece can claim some of the Ancient Macedonian heritage. In that case, I argue, they can claim all Ancient Greek history altogether if they want. They have biological ancestors who are genetically identical to them. In return I would argue that we ought not to act childish and rob those ancient Greek people of their Hellenic cultural elements absent evidence.

Very well put.
 
Even if that were true. How is it exactly that you can distinguish Paeonian DNA 4th century B.C. from Ancient Greek DNA 4th century B.C.? If you exclude medieval migrations, the South Balkans would be mostly identical. It is fairly acceptable to have some small gradients of variety within a people. Culture and language in that case are the determening factors.

The whole point for those who argued that Ancient Macedonians were supposed to be different biologically, is that Ancient Macedonians must have had a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Ancient Greeks altogether. In fact, if the Ancient Macedonians do hypothetically have a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Greeks. Then they are probably not related to anyone in the region to begin with. That includes Paeonians.

We have come to the point of splitting hairs sothat some modern nations adjecent to Greece can claim some of the Ancient Macedonian heritage. In that case, I argue, they can claim all Ancient Greek history altogether if they want. They have biological ancestors who are genetically identical to them. In return I would say that we ought not act childish and rob those ancient Greek people of their Hellenic cultural elements absent evidence.


With paternal and maternal lineages in conjuction with auDna we don't have to split hairs. Argead dynasty y-dna would be useful to know, which branch philip, alexander, etc belonged to. This knowledge would split the hairs for us, and put an end to these arguments wouldn't it? I bought this book btw, and I will post some excerpts from it here.

Can definitely recommend it.
 
Very well put.

We have someone here that tries to rationalize the behavior of a government that prohibits genetic testing and you say “well put”, interesting point of view from someone that claims that loves truth. No one is claiming Macedonian history, but we refuse to believe Modern Greeks claims with genetic proof. It is like a son claiming a father without being genetically tested. If the son refused to test his fathers remains that mean that he is lying, plain and simple.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
We have someone here that tries to rationalize the behavior of a government that prohibits genetic testing and you say “well put”, interesting point of view from someone that claims that loves truth. No one is claiming Macedonian history, but we refuse to believe Modern Greeks claims with genetic proof. It is like a son claiming a father without being genetically tested. If the son refused to test his fathers remains that mean that he is lying, plain and simple.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

He didn't even address the issue. He said, even if that's true...

Please read posts closely and apply reason before posting.

One more post like that and you get an infraction as well.
 
I suspect that the Macedonians were Greek but with substantial "Northern" admixture. I have seen some Macedonian paintings and the people there looked different and less "East Med" than the depictions of Greeks on Roman paintings. Maybe they were like modern Mainland Greeks from the genetical point of view. Fact is Greeks are very protective of Alexander the Great and ancient Macedonians for obvious reasons.
 

This thread has been viewed 27886 times.

Back
Top