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Thread: "Tombs of the family of Alexander the Great finally giving up their secrets"

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    "Tombs of the family of Alexander the Great finally giving up their secrets"



    Quite cryptic. But some revealing things in this article. Greece apparantly has so far not allowed DNA testing of the most important bones.

    Some excerpts:

    "
    The ages of the deceased in Tomb II were determined from wear and tear on bones: the main chamber contained a middle-aged male and the antechamber a far younger female. This narrowed down the list of kings and queens either side of Alexanders reign.

    But an unfortunate symmetry obscured the background to the double burial in Tomb II, says London-based historian David Grant who collaborated with the scientists studying the skeletal remains. This led to a battle of the bones among historians, causing a rift which divided the academic community obsessed on proving their identities.

    The Tomb II occupants could either be Alexanders father Philip II and his final teenage wife Cleopatra, or Philips half-witted son Arrhidaeus who was executed twenty years later when of similar age and with an equally young bride. Questions of ritual or forced suicide raised their head, because kings and queens rarely died together.

    Philip II was a national hero who befitted such a tomb and he had seven wives we know of. But Grants research points out the elephant in the room: none of the ancient sources mentions any women being buried with Philip at Aegae. What superficially appears to be a two-phase construction of Tomb II, plus the different cremation conditions the female bones underwent, suggest she was buried later than the male in the still-empty or incomplete second chamber.

    On the other hand, Arrhidaeus and his young bride Adea-Eurydice were executed together by Alexanders mother Olympias when she regained political control of the state capital. She also murdered Philips last wife, Cleopatra, along with her new-born child. This double assassination of Arrhidaeus and Adea-Eurydice explains the double burial given to them after Olympias was herself executed.

    The Antikas team found new incontrovertible age evidence on previously unanalysed bones, as well as undocumented trauma, which further narrowed down the list of candidates. The womans pubic symphysis aged her at 32 +/- 2 years at death, ruling out Philips teenage wife Cleopatra and discounting Arrhidaeus and his wife completely.

    Dispelling the case of archaeological gender bias was an overlooked shinbone wound providing proof that the armour and weapons belonged to the women, because the unevenly sized gilded-bronze greaves were fashioned to fit her shortened deformed leg. She was, indeed, being honoured as a warrior at death.

    A final identity-shattering discovery was made by the Antikas team. Forgotten and unanalysed skeletal remains from Tomb I were found in storage below the Vergina laboratory; they were probably consigned to thirty-five-years of obscurity in the aftermath of the great Thessalonica earthquake of 20 June 1978 when the preservation of unlooted Tombs II and III was the focus of attention. These additional bones from Tomb I contained the remains of at least seven individuals, not just two adults and a baby.

    The teams finds were published in an academic journal 2015. Although hampered by underfunding and a lack of support from those fearing unwanted results, they continued to push for next-generation forensics: DNA testing, radiocarbon dating, and stable isotope analysis on the Tomb II and Tomb III bones.

    Permission was denied in 2016, Grant reveals. Instead, the scientists were allowed to test the scattered bones found in looted Tomb I, but with no formal funding provided. Although these bones lay exposed in soil for over 2,000 years, dating and DNA results were successfully extracted, disproving yet more of the identity theories. Moreover, controversial leg bones, which supposedly evidenced the terrible a knee wound Philip may have suffered in Thrace, appeared to be intruders from a completely different tomb. The results have yet to be published and Grant says they will amaze everyone.

    What has become clear is that the great earthen tumulus at ancient Aegae was bitten into by looters on more than one occasion, and when exposed, Tomb I became a dumping ground for the dead.

    Now Grants new book is revealing all, the pressure will certainly be on the Greek Ministry of Culture to take a new progressive stance on permitting the outstanding forensics on the royal bones from the unlooted tombs. With the possible identities greatly narrowed down by the Antikas-team study, new DNA, radio carbon dating and stable isotope analysis of the king, queen and prince may solve the puzzle once and for all."



    LINK: https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogs...7LB6mS4M9V5.97
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    The non testing by the greek govnt, is due to...what if the findings state paeonian or dardanian....then the current nation of macedonia can claim more "rights" to this line
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It's to be expected from Greece since they don't recognize minorities and want to assimilate everyone. I don't get it, a country with such beautiful history is bound to get foreigners who accepted Hellenism among their ranks and they should take pride in it.

    On the other hand, there was a huge population shift from North to South everywhere in the Balkans so those ancient Macedonians could have ended up in modern Attiki or North Peloponnesos, thus the results will match much more with modern Greeks. Are they afraid they'll end up overlapping with Albanians or what? Because I don't think they fear North Macedonians due to their North-East European shift during the Middle Ages.

    In any case, I hope they proceed "illegally" and provide us some y and audna results. As a history and genetics enthusiast I'm really excited to see the results, I don't really care who they overlapped more.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The biggest shock from this would be if what has been promoted as Phillip's tomb/remains belong to Arrhidaeus as Grant is suggesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The biggest shock from this would be if what has been promoted as Phillip's tomb/remains belong to Arrhidaeus as Grant is suggesting.
    Indeed. And why isn't anyone mentioning Cynane the half-sister of Alexander who was trained by her mother Audata (Illyrian princess) in martial arts the Illyrian way, a tradition she passed on to her own daughter Adea-Eurydice?

    There's a lot of speculation over this mysterious Scythian woman, but we know that Cynane met her end by Alketas (Perdikas brother) on her way to marry Adea to marry Arrhidaeus, while both Adea-Eurydice and Philip Arrhidaeus were killed by Olympias and all 3 were burried in Aegae.

    Wikipedia (being lazy): "Audata trained her daughter in riding, hunting, and fighting in the Illyrian tradition. Cynane continued unmarried, and employed herself in the education of her daughter, Adea or Eurydice, whom she is said to have trained, after the manner of her own education, in martial exercises. Polyaenus writes, "Cynane, the daughter of Philip was famous for her military knowledge: she conducted armies, and in the field charged at the head of them. In an engagement with the Illyrians, she with her own hand slew Caeria their queen; and with great slaughter defeated the Illyrian army." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynane



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    Right, I misread the part about the "amazonian" woman. He is suggesting that the age of the woman warrior cancels out both Phillip and Arrhideus as a possibility. The only possibility then is that this is Cynane's tomb, making the man Amyntas?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    People have feared the truth since the beginning of mankind.

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    Absent some miracle discovery, no one is ever going to know who they were...


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    If they used Public Money, People are justified to demand / insist for transparency.
    Last edited by Salento; 31-10-19 at 05:53.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    ..........................
    Great find! Didn't know this is being re-examined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Absent some miracle discovery, no one is ever going to know who they were...
    You mean that they did not have tombstones clearly labeling who's who?

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    A woman warrior from that time frame with such a venerated tomb can only be Cynane tbh. She commanded whole armies.

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    there is not a chance to be Κυννα,

    Kynna was killed much before Kassandros brought her bones to Aiges,

    the woman is the Scythian wife-bodyguard of Phillip 2nd.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The non testing by the greek govnt, is due to...what if the findings state paeonian or dardanian....
    Even if that were true. How is it exactly that you can distinguish Paeonian DNA 4th century B.C. from Ancient Greek DNA 4th century B.C.? If you exclude medieval migrations, the South Balkans would be mostly identical. It is fairly acceptable to have some small gradients of variety within a people. Culture and language in that case are the determening factors.

    The whole point for those who argued that Ancient Macedonians were supposed to be different biologically, is that Ancient Macedonians must have had a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Ancient Greeks altogether. In fact, if the Ancient Macedonians do hypothetically have a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Greeks. Then they are probably not related to anyone in the region to begin with. That includes Paeonians.

    We have come to the point of splitting hairs sothat some modern nations adjecent to Greece can claim some of the Ancient Macedonian heritage. In that case, I argue, they can claim all Ancient Greek history altogether if they want. They have biological ancestors who are genetically identical to them. In return I would say that we ought not act childish and rob those ancient Greek people of their Hellenic cultural elements absent evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Even if that were true. How is it exactly that you can distinguish Paeonian DNA 4th century B.C. from Ancient Greek DNA 4th century B.C.? If you exclude medieval migrations, the South Balkans would be mostly identical. It is fairly acceptable to have some small gradients of variety within a people. Culture and language in that case are the determening factors.

    The whole point for those who argued that Ancient Macedonians were supposed to be different biologically, is that Ancient Macedonians must have had a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Ancient Greeks altogether. In fact, if the Ancient Macedonians do hypothetically have a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Greeks. Then they are probably not related to anyone in the region to begin with. That includes Paeonians.

    We have come to the point of splitting hairs sothat some modern nations adjecent to Greece can claim some of the Ancient Macedonian heritage. In that case, I argue, they can claim all Ancient Greek history altogether if they want. They have biological ancestors who are genetically identical to them. In return I would argue that we ought not to act childish and rob those ancient Greek people of their Hellenic cultural elements absent evidence.
    Very well put.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Even if that were true. How is it exactly that you can distinguish Paeonian DNA 4th century B.C. from Ancient Greek DNA 4th century B.C.? If you exclude medieval migrations, the South Balkans would be mostly identical. It is fairly acceptable to have some small gradients of variety within a people. Culture and language in that case are the determening factors.

    The whole point for those who argued that Ancient Macedonians were supposed to be different biologically, is that Ancient Macedonians must have had a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Ancient Greeks altogether. In fact, if the Ancient Macedonians do hypothetically have a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Greeks. Then they are probably not related to anyone in the region to begin with. That includes Paeonians.

    We have come to the point of splitting hairs sothat some modern nations adjecent to Greece can claim some of the Ancient Macedonian heritage. In that case, I argue, they can claim all Ancient Greek history altogether if they want. They have biological ancestors who are genetically identical to them. In return I would say that we ought not act childish and rob those ancient Greek people of their Hellenic cultural elements absent evidence.

    With paternal and maternal lineages in conjuction with auDna we don't have to split hairs. Argead dynasty y-dna would be useful to know, which branch philip, alexander, etc belonged to. This knowledge would split the hairs for us, and put an end to these arguments wouldn't it? I bought this book btw, and I will post some excerpts from it here.

    Can definitely recommend it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very well put.
    We have someone here that tries to rationalize the behavior of a government that prohibits genetic testing and you say “well put”, interesting point of view from someone that claims that loves truth. No one is claiming Macedonian history, but we refuse to believe Modern Greeks claims with genetic proof. It is like a son claiming a father without being genetically tested. If the son refused to test his fathers remains that mean that he is lying, plain and simple.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    We have someone here that tries to rationalize the behavior of a government that prohibits genetic testing and you say “well put”, interesting point of view from someone that claims that loves truth. No one is claiming Macedonian history, but we refuse to believe Modern Greeks claims with genetic proof. It is like a son claiming a father without being genetically tested. If the son refused to test his fathers remains that mean that he is lying, plain and simple.


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    He didn't even address the issue. He said, even if that's true...

    Please read posts closely and apply reason before posting.

    One more post like that and you get an infraction as well.

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    I suspect that the Macedonians were Greek but with substantial "Northern" admixture. I have seen some Macedonian paintings and the people there looked different and less "East Med" than the depictions of Greeks on Roman paintings. Maybe they were like modern Mainland Greeks from the genetical point of view. Fact is Greeks are very protective of Alexander the Great and ancient Macedonians for obvious reasons.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    He didn't even address the issue. He said, even if that's true...

    Please read posts closely and apply reason before posting.

    One more post like that and you get an infraction as well.
    So even if that is true, it will not matter after all, genetic or not Macedonians are Greek no proof needed, considering they show up after Bronze Age collapse.

    As for infraction, when you participate as a member on a discussion expect opposing opinions, or just moderate and do not express any opinion. Wearing multiple hats is not fair.




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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So even if that is true, it will not matter after all, genetic or not Macedonians are Greek no proof needed, considering they show up after Bronze Age collapse.

    As for infraction, when you participate as a member on a discussion expect opposing opinions, or just moderate and do not express any opinion. Wearing multiple hats is not fair.




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    How you get from what he said to what you concluded is beyond me. You have to disconnect your hyper-patriotism and ethnic hatred of people, Greeks, who are your "cousins" genetically, at least some of them, and actually reason from what was said.

    Do you have an ancient Paenonian sample? An ancient "Dorian" sample which you people also always argue about? How about a certifiable Macedonian sample?

    When you have them we can compare all of them, including Mycenaean samples, and samples from the appropriate places just north of actual Greece, and from Classical Era Greece, and then we'd know wouldn't we?

    What would you do if it upends everything you thought, as has happened to the pro-Herodotus supporters, for example? Would you accept the scientific evidence or would you try to find some way to deny it.

    I don't see mainland Greeks having a nervous breakdown because the Islanders are closer to the Mycenaeans than they are.

    You really have to get a grip.

    Not everything we were told in kindergarten is true. Sad, in some cases, but the reality.

    You insult another poster or you insult me, it's still worthy of an infraction.

    That's the only recourse you seem to have.

    Post FACTS, verifiable facts, and accept the facts posted by others and you'd have no problems here.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is a very dense book that contains the entire history of work that has been done on these tombs, and David Grant's style is such he states nothing outright but rather develops his arguments over 40 pages, with no quick "tagline" or summary available. This page nonetheless is one quite important one as it has a lot of important chunks:


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    And David Grant does argue that the tomb of the "Amazoness Warrior" does in fact belong to Cynane. He lists all the counter-arguments and history of the differing theories, and still concludes it is Cynane:


  25. #25
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    Cynane was the daughter of Audata, who is the daughter of Bardylis, the most powerful Dardanian king of antiquity we know of. Therefore her mtdna and audna immediately is of great relevance to Dardanian history and thus Albanian history, without making any claims or contestations about the Macedonians or Argeads origins.

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