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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post

    He made a logical point stating the obvious; The L283 Etruscan has a 1000ybp TMRCA with the Dalmatian Proto-Illyrian L283, and so, likely migrated from around Dalmatia.

    If we are to deal with evidence and facts, than the only evidence we have at the moment is that the only L283 that shares the 1000 year distance with the Etruscan sample is the Proto-Illyrian in Dalmatia.

    Is that so hard to understand?
    Without trying to go into a "war" I 'll say: 1000 years is more than nothing + you jump very quickly to conclusions when you speak of this (geographically) old J-L283 "Dalmatian" as a confirmed Illyrian or proto-Illyrian. + linguisitically there is no link direct link between Etruscan and the diverse ancient Balkanic IE languages we have heard of. And first mentions of "Illyrians" are from around the 400 BC, even if we can think they did not appear suddenly from nowhere.
    That said, we have very few Y-haplo's for Etruscans, genuine or not. Y-R1b among them could very well be of Italic or even better of Ligurian origin, and Y-J2 from original Etruscans come from around Pannonia, cousins to this Dalmatian L283.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    @Salento

    My speculation was correct, 836, 57,107, and 113 are Apulian-like samples, which are in the SITALY3-circled area. Though I should have shifted it south west a tad, because 107, and 113 are half-in. Nevertheless, almost spot on.
    Thanks Jovialis, cool :) I circle them out in red in the connected square.


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    Sorry, I went too quick and too far myself concerning Y-J2b - It's distribution doesn't correspond too well to ancient Etruria; it could also be only a lineage picked up by them later. It seems this kind of sedented culture incorporated more easily other male lineages (as it occured elsewhere in Neolithic central Europe) than did the post-nomadic clannic tribes of the first IE'ans. The only thing I'm sure for now is that we lack enough Y-haplo's for a lot of places and times, and precisely for Etruscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Oh please. Hop off your high horse. Any thread I argue with Greeks is where they clearly attacked with filthy speech against my people. Some wrong things were stated so I made it clear they were related.

    Obviously it’s you who does not know what they’re talking about and need to understand things contextually before going on your rant.

    no one claimed the Nuragic/Sardinian L283 was Illyrian. As far as I know that sample was of a different clade unrelated in a historical time sense to Illyrians or Albanians.

    the Etruscan sample is the only one being referenced here. Which clearly has a 1000 year gap from its parent clade in Dalmatia identified as a Proto Illyrian.

    Real slick with that jab. Croatia must be teaming with J2b-L283(sarcasm).

    keep on with with your delusions and ignoring the obvious fact. All of you LARPing with admixture calculators and ignoring hard science. Y chromosomes don’t lie. Supplemental data revealed the subclade of the L283 Sardinian descends from parent clade found in Proto Illyrian Croatia.

    no one is saying Albanians are directly related to this sample. They are however related and more directly related to southern Illyrians which will be distant cousins of this.

    there’s no arguing the hard fact that their Ydna is related. Paternal. That’s what indo European society was built on. Patriarchy. DNA doesn’t lie.

    This Nuragic sample you toss in is far older. The Etruscan sample and Proto Illyrian sample in Dalmatia are closely related. Distantly so to Albanians.

    Iberians and North Italians can’t claim that legacy. Hell, even me, an Albanian can not claim so either in a paternal sense. Despite being part of later phases
    of proto Albanian culture, my line likely came from central/central East Europe with Slavs most likely.

    i don’t make mental hurdles to cope. Neither should you. Simple fact is they’re related more than anyone. Everyone just likes broad generalizations so they don’t hurt anyone’s feelings.

    however, as full genome Y sequencing advances, there will be no more half truths and lies. It’s already headed there whilst everyone has fun with gedmatch finding all their new ethnicities And which ancient people’s they claim.

    You have morons on the apricity taking Mytrueancestry as gospel truth with Italians and Spaniard prancing around calling themselves Illyrian. It’s become a game.

    Simple fact is that Etruscans grand grand grand pappy and so on came from a Proto Illyrian in Dalmatia. Show me a sample from outside the Balkans that is closer in relation sharing the same branching SNPs and distance. You cannot because right now the closest match in a thousand years is a Proto Illyrian.

    How about you bring evidence countering that simple fact and leave Albanians out of the question, which is, Who is this etruscans closest paternal ancestor? The only evidence shows a 1000 year distance between him and his ancestor in Croatia.
    I am not going to allow you to destroy this thread the way you have every thread about the Greeks. You've made your point.

    If any of you keep repeating the same thing over and over again it will be considered spamming and the posts will be deleted. Have I made myself clear????


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Without trying to go into a "war" I 'll say: 1000 years is more than nothing + you jump very quickly to conclusions when you speak of this (geographically) old J-L283 "Dalmatian" as a confirmed Illyrian or proto-Illyrian. + linguisitically there is no link direct link between Etruscan and the diverse ancient Balkanic IE languages we have heard of. And first mentions of "Illyrians" are from around the 400 BC, even if we can think they did not appear suddenly from nowhere.
    That said, we have very few Y-haplo's for Etruscans, genuine or not. Y-R1b among them could very well be of Italic or even better of Ligurian origin, and Y-J2 from original Etruscans come from around Pannonia, cousins to this Dalmatian L283.
    We have one Y-DNA, Moesan. It's little to say that Y-J2 is from original Etruscans who came from around Pannonia. We have just to wait other papers. For years we have had to undergo many speculations based on silly studies, now we hope that more analysis on the Etruscans will come.

    Then, in general, I find it wrong to associate Y-DNA so strongly with Iron Age ethnic groups. Given the distribution today in the regions that were Etruria, it seems to me rather unlikely that all the R1b in modern Etruria comes from others. But I might be wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sorry, I went too quick and too far myself concerning Y-J2b - It's distribution doesn't correspond too well to ancient Etruria; it could also be only a lineage picked up by them later. It seems this kind of sedented culture incorporated more easily other male lineages (as it occured elsewhere in Neolithic central Europe) than did the post-nomadic clannic tribes of the first IE'ans. The only thing I'm sure for now is that we lack enough Y-haplo's for a lot of places and times, and precisely for Etruscans.
    That's right. Its distribution doesn't correspond too well to ancient Etruria but it does exist in the modern population of Etruria. However, the Etruscans were not a sedentary culture. On the contrary. J2b-L283 has been found in the Etruscan necropolis of La Mattonara near Civitavecchia, in southern Etruria, which is on the sea. The fact that J2b-L283 was found among the Nuragics could be an indication of a link. Maybe. We do know that areas of southern Etruria were involved since the early stage of the Etruscan civilization in the trading with Sardinia. Among other things, the outlier believed to be mixed with Phoenician ancestry was found right here in this same necropolis, and the Phoenicians were settled in Sardinia. With the difference that the J2-L283 found in Sardinia had no steppes, while this Etruscan has indeed steppe-related ancestry, and the study hypothesizes a connection with the one found in Dalmatia, Croatia. That is, however, 1000 years older. I'm telling myself, there's no point in speculating on one sample. Perhaps we will discover that J2b-L283 existed among the Etruscans but it was not very common, or how we can discover the opposite.

    Etruscan necropolis of La Mattonara near Civitavecchia (province of Rome).










  6. #231
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The Etruscan and the proto-Illyrian were J-Y15058, right?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/

    I'd like to opine, assuming that YFull age estimation, samples dating and hgs assignments are accurate. I'm not aware of a reason to doubt it.

    The Etruscan would have lived between 2600 and 2700 years ago. The proto-Illyrian, between 3520 and 3620 years ago.
    The TMRCA is 3900 years before present, however, it must be read as 4400-3500 ybp, which is the CI 95%. The actual TMRCA may be then a bit closer or farer in time, naturally, meaning the common ancestor of them probably lived between 800 and 1800 years before the Etruscan and 0-900 before the Illyrian. However, Y15058 SNP has four equivalents. I wonder if the Illyrian was confirmed positive for all. Being younger than the TMRCA doesn't necessarily mean that that specific line thrived*. If not, the TMRCA between the Etruscan and the Illyrian would be slightly different (older), and so the CI 95%. I continue this post assuming the Illyrian was a "complete" J-Y15058, to simplify, since I don't have details on his exact categorization, but also because the equivalents involved are just few.

    "If" the actual TMRCA is closer to the later limit, then it would appear far more likely that ancestors of this Etruscan individual (not necessarily "the Etruscans") did live around present day Croatia ~3500 years ago, migrating anytime after that. Speculating when approximately it left Balkan, and from where it must have arrived, would be another story, which demands a knowledge I don't have. On the other hand, if the actual TMRCA is closer to the earlier limit, then we'd be talking on a relevant time window for dispersal, making more difficult to speculate on the place of the common source.

    We obviously don't have a definitive answer, but it seems to me that the possibility proposed (patrilineal ancestors of that Etruscan individual living in the other side of Adriatic Sea certain time before) deserves to be considered.

    *Side note not that important neither directly related:
    - The extinction of a given lineage could have happened anytime after sample's time, including way after the TMRCA of the related survivor lineage.
    - These old samples usually have low coverage, however, when coverage allows, a supposedly extinct lineage would be well evidenced in general by an ancient sample being positive and negative for some SNPs that defines the related survivor lineage and being positive for SNPs not shared with this survivor lineage. How close this hypothetical extinct lineage is from the survivor lineage would be especially relevant, but it may be difficult to know it, due to the usual low coverage.
    - The condition of an ancient sample way older than the TMRCA of the lineage being positive for some SNPs and negative for other SNPs that currently define it, while proves a "pre-hg", doesn't necessarily prove per se the lineage went extinct, i.e., that it's not direct ancestral to moderns. Of course, finding the remains of such old direct ancestors doesn't seem likely, but...
    - There are some well developed lineages in regards to phylogeny, but also the "underdeveloped" ones, due to undersampling and/or rarity, that's why I used "supposedly extinct". We've old branches still to be developed, so in theory what is a pre-hg today could be an hg tomorrow.
    - Finally, of course: I'm especially talking about hgs currently defined by several equivalent SNPs.
    Last edited by Regio X; 12-11-19 at 19:32.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    If we have only one Y-DNA of an Etruscan, instead on the mtDNA side we have many of them.


    Those published in this study are these and confirm the pattern already seen in the 2013 studies (U5, JT, H):

    - R1015 mtDNA K1a4 (female, Villanovan period, 900 - 800 BCE, female) from Grotta Gramiccia (Veio, Rome)

    - R473 mtDNA U5a1 (female, Orientalizing period, 700 - 600 BCE) from La Mattonara necropolis, Civitavecchia (Rome)

    - R474 mtDNA H (male, Orientalizing period, 700 - 600 BCE) from La Mattonara necropolis, Civitavecchia (Rome)

    - R475_outlier mtDNA T2b32 (female, Orientalizing period, 700 - 600 BCE) from La Mattonara necropolis, Civitavecchia (Rome)


    Very interesting is the confirmation that among the Etruscans there was U5, which in the studies of 2013 was found both in two necropolis in Tuscany and one in Lazio (Tarquinia).


    What do these Etruscan mtDNAs tell us? Angela, Moesan.


    For the mtDNAs of the 2013 study this may be useful


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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    The Etruscan and the proto-Illyrian were J-Y15058, right?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/

    I'd like to opine, assuming that YFull age estimation, samples dating and hgs assignments are accurate.
    Very interesting, thank you very much Regio X. If we really want to face this discussion, however, we must place archaeologically the individual found in Croatia who was J2b2a-L283. It is not enough to say that he was proto-Illyrian. What was the bronze culture to which he belonged? In the autosomal DNA he had a significant amount of steppe-related ancestry.


    Let's remember, this individual was a 5-7 year old boy, found near the town of Vrgorac in Split-Dalmatia County, in southern Croatia.


    Individual I4331, dated 1631-1521 calBCE (~3591 ybp), Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a-L283 mtDNA: I1a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Very interesting, thank you very much Regio X. If we really want to face this discussion, however, we must place archaeologically the individual found in Croatia who was J2b2a-L283. It is not enough to say that he was proto-Illyrian. What was the bronze culture to which he belonged? In the autosomal DNA he had a significant amount of steppe-related ancestry.


    Let's remember, this individual was a 5-7 year old boy, found near the town of Vrgorac in Split-Dalmatia County, in southern Croatia.


    Individual I4331, dated 1631-1521 calBCE (~3591 ybp), Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a-L283 mtDNA: I1a1
    My first post on Eupedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Footnote from "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe"
    Radiocarbon dates and preserved artifacts (hair ornament made of coiled copper wire and fragments of pottery) date these burials to the Early/Middle Bronze Age.28


    28
    Mucić, K. & Kovačević Bokarica, N. Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine
    na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja. In: Arheološka istraživanja na trasi
    autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini (ed M Tomasović) 125-212 (Gradski muzej Makarska,
    2011).


    One last year's work:
    Majića gradina (Drinovci) - novo nalazište licenske keramike u Hercegovini (new find of Litzen ware in Herzegovina)


    U kulturnom i kronološkom pogledu navedene razlike nisu toliko izražene, barem ne u kontekstu promatrane kulturne regije, gdje često i ne postoji uža distinkcija prema načinu izvođenja ornamenta, nego se konvencionalno takva vrsta nalaza, bilo da su oni ukrašeni otiskivanjem dvonitne uzice ili otkane tkanice/vrpce, često deklarira kao licenska.16


    16 Usp. B. Čović, "Posuška kultura", 70, 75, 77-78, T. VIII, 5, T. X, 5, 4; Marinko Tomasović, "Arheološka topografija lijeve strane donjeg toka Cetine", u: Jacqueline Balen - Hrvoje Potrebica (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja u cetinskoj krajini, Izdanja Hrvatskoga arheološkog društva, vol. 27, Zagreb, 2011., T. I, 5-6; Vedran Katavić - Ana Sunko Katavić - Andrea Devlahović, "Istraživanje grobnog tumula, dviju vrtača, gradine i gradinice u Gornjim Rašćanima kod Vrgorca", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 46, kat. jed. 7; Konstanta Mucić - Nela Kovačević Bokarica, "Doprinosi poznavanju povijesti Vrgoračke krajine na osnovi rezultata novijih arheoloških istraživanja", u: Marinko Tomasović (prir.), Arheološka istraživanja na trasi autoceste u Zabiokovlju i Plini, Makarska, 2011., str. 130, kat. jed. 2; B. Marijanović, nav. dj., str. 105, T. LXXXV, 5; T. LXXXVI, 1,2; Ivan Šuta, "Korištenje vrtača u prapovijesti Dalmacije", u: Tusculum, 6, Solin, 2013., str. 11-12, sl. 6.


    So Litzen ware clearly places Veliki Vanik in the context of what B.Čović called Posušje culture, while Govedarica classified it as Dinara culture. Dinara culture was markedly different in comparison to neighboring Cetina culture, as you know Raf Ceustermans of E-M35 Project already put up a hypothesis of connection between E-V13 and Cetina culture. Tying J-M241 with coexisting neighboring Dinara culture actually adds indirectly additional weight to his hypothesis.
    It must be said that Dinara culture has clear ties to Apennine Peninsula.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    My first post on Eupedia
    Thank you very much, Aspurg.

    "Dinara culture has clear ties to Apennine Peninsula". Does it mean to Italy, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Thank you very much, Aspurg.

    "Dinara culture has clear ties to Apennine Peninsula". Does it mean to Italy, right?
    Few quotes about these connections from archaeologist Govedarica who wrote on Dinara culture (Posušje culture per other archaeologist who researched it) from 1989.

    By differentiating Dinara and Cetina culture and by placing the older phase of Dinara culture within the frame of the Br. A2 period, a need arises to reassess the chronological evaluation of the origin of handles with Axe-like extensions, that are among the most recognizable traits in the pottery material of this culture. The question of appearance of these forms in the Middle-Adriatic area is not resolved in an appropriate manner, and this problem is showing itself as one of the most critical moments in the cultural and chronological evaluation of this culture..


    Handles of this type ("anse ad ascia") are best documented on the Apennine peninsula and in the Southeast France, their mass appearance is being connected with the proto-Apennine culture ("proto-apenninico B") whose datation is not fully agreed upon but is most commonly placed in the period which corresponds to the younger phase of the Early Bronze Age per South German chronology, that is Br. A2.


    Individual finds of "pseudobrassarda" from the Dinara culture also have best analogues in the area of Northern Italy, in the late Polada culture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apennine_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polada_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    They are both under Y15058 which has a TMRCA of 3900 YBP.
    Exactly, they split around 2000 BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Like I commented before, the argument of this was not based only on this amazing result, but this result in conjunction with Grugni, and clade diversity & frequency. A proposed shared split of Y15058 doesn't strike me as convincing given the totally assymtrical representation of L283 diversity of other clades across the adriatic.
    With the current level of testing, the greatest J2b-L283 diversity is found in Sardinia. The highest frequency is in Albanians, and it is very diverse too, but it is >99% under Z638.

    As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), there is no Balkan result under CTS6190, but there are Italians. The one on YFull is from Tuscany. Given their MRCA of 3100 ybp, a movement related to the Sea Peoples is very much possible. We know Sardinia's connections to the Sea Peoples, and possibly to Illyrians. We also know that Etruscans had settled islands around Sardinia. So this remains a possibility.

    With splits as old as 2000 BC, we can exclude neither a BA dispersion from east of the Alps (with or without Sea Peoples as an extra step), nor an Illyrian migration. As I said, J2b-L283 was likely one of the main Illyrian Y-lines, but we cannot say that all J2b-L283 was originally Illyrian.

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    Excellent discussion, gentlemen, thank-you.

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    I know the number of remains is limited
    But i took a look and i don't see mtdna h3
    in all periods..... contrary to the last iberian ancient dna
    Paper were it was common

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    Significant genetic outliers for each time period identified by f4 statistics



    Judging by the title, I'm assuming that this is the Official Outliers list.
    Guess who's NOT on the list :)

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf

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    Could it be that R80 and R132 are part
    carthegenian ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Could it be that R80 and R132 are part
    carthegenian ?
    It could be.

    Page 98 - Table S28

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf

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    The fist thing that came into my mind after getting 3 ancient J2b-L283 results from Sardinia, Etruria, and Dalmatia, was the Neolithic distribution of Cardium pottery and its successor cultures where the earliest finds are from Albania and Corfu, then Dalmatia and Bosnia, then crossed over to Italy a couple of hundred years later and so on (approx 6,000 BC).

    Now Cardium pottery might explain only the initial spread of J2b parent clades and not the later Etruscan with TMRCA of 2000 BC, but it could serve as an indication of a specific cultural area which facilitated a sort of "internal migration".

    For all we know, there could have been a strong North Adriatic kingdom destroyed by incoming IE tribes, he could have been a later Proto-Illyrian from Hallstatt, or a proto-Italic, etc. so it's useless to involve Iron Age ethnicities as of yet because we have J2b with TRMCA of 4,500 ybp found in Armenia and even in India, so it could have been any IE or non-IE.
    Last edited by Nik; 12-11-19 at 16:02.

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    I didn't want to comment anymore but was adressed directly.

    Yes, CTS6190 has been found in a turkish guy who says he has Albanian origins. We also have clades other than z638, which has tmrca of 4200 ybp, so its not some young founder effect.

    Sardinia is known for sampling bias and overrepresentation on YFull since it had some study done, but i still think its normal some clades will show up there that wont among albs, but are nonetheless related to same origins.

    Cardium culture and 6000BC is not serious.

    Dalmatian sample is 17th -16th Century BC
    Nuragic Civilization begins 18th Century BC, and the Sardinian L283 samples come from around 13th Century BC and were not found in sardinian samples dated prior to Nuragic civillization.

    The evidence points to seafaring introduction of l283 that is IE. The language those l283 spoke is possibly hinted at by work of non-albanian linguists that have poinyed out certain non-latin words in sardinian language that point to an albanoid linguistic substratum.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I didn't want to comment anymore but was adressed directly.

    Yes, CTS6190 has been found in a turkish guy who says he has Albanian origins. We also have clades other than z638, which has tmrca of 4200 ybp, so its not some young founder effect.

    Sardinia is known for sampling bias and overrepresentation on YFull since it had some study done, but i still think its normal some clades will show up there that wont among albs, but are nonetheless related to same origins.

    Cardium culture and 6000BC is not serious.

    Dalmatian sample is 17th -16th Century BC
    Nuragic Civilization begins 18th Century BC, and the Sardinian L283 samples come from around 13th Century BC and were not found in sardinian samples dated prior to Nuragic civillization.

    The evidence points to seafaring introduction of l283 that is IE. The language those l283 spoke is possibly hinted at by work of non-albanian linguists that have poinyed out certain non-latin words in sardinian language that point to an albanoid linguistic substratum.

    On Yfull, under CTS6190 there are four Portuguese, one Italian, one Dutch, one British, one Russian. There's not a single Albanian.



    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    On Yfull, under CTS6190 there are four Portuguese, one Italian, one Dutch, one British, one Russian. There's not a single Albanian.



    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/
    So he is not on Yfull..? Are you accusing me of making that turkish guy up?

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    I meant the parent clade to cts6190, common to etruscan and dalmatian. Contact J2 project admin for confirmation. I am not falsifying anything.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Nuragic Civilization begins 18th Century BC, and the Sardinian L283 samples come from around 13th Century BC and were not found in sardinian samples dated prior to Nuragic civillization.
    The sample prior to Nuragic era is very small. The TMRCA of Sardinian samples (5400 ybp) suggests an older presence there. Additionally there is also a Tuscan NA20763 who is J-Z585*. The Tuscan is also older than any clades found in Albanians...

    There is no real evidence whatsoever that the L283 arrived to Sardinia in 13th century BC.

    In fact if you go strictly by the find, the only new addition in Nuragic era is J-L283, so logic dictates J-L283 is proto-Nuragic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Significant genetic outliers for each time period identified by f4 statistics



    Judging by the title, I'm assuming that this is the Official Outliers list.
    Guess who's NOT on the list :)

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf
    These WHG results are seriously weird!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    What about it being downstrwam of the mathieson sample do you not understand? Etruscans were not IE, so if it was "common equally" to both an IE and etruscan group, ot cannot always have been. What type of argumentation is that.

    The nuragic j2b2 is also further evidence of illyrian origin, not continental. Im not spamming this thread. Its the most obvious origin for the and the push to ignore it is wholly recationary and ideological.
    The problem with you is that, you already start with a basis which is based on logical fallacy. You already concluded in your mind that Y-DNA J2b2 is Indo-European despite being non-existent at any Indo-European speaking people except for Albanians that they might have well incorporated from non-IE speaking people from the Balkans.

    You cannot make conclusion from scarce almost to non-existent proofs.

    So far, and so less. I am seeing a pattern, Nuragics to a degree, Etruscans to a certain degree, if J2b2 is continued to be found among shore Mediterraneans and Anatolians then this logical puzzle will be solved.

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