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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Am I getting this right?

    435-Prenestini Tribe plots with the Southern French


    One in Spain, four near it but veering toward Sardinia, so even more Anatolian Neolithic?

    851-Ardea Latini plots in the Spanish cluster. Which region is that?
    1021 Boville Latini
    1016 Rome Latini
    473 Etruscan
    1015 Villanovan


    Etruscan 474-Italy, but which province is it actually in? Lombardia?

    R1 Proto-Villanovan-Italy. It looks like it's near Liguria, but which province is it actually in?

    So, anyone want to tell me again that Etruscans are from Lydia in the first millennium BC?

    Both are, as I said, Southern Europeans.

    Good-bye to so many myths.

    Not Basque like so why model with them?

    Did they model with only the steppe admixed Parma Beakers? Where would they plot here?
    Assuming that nMonte with G25 is accurate, the Latins all have a high WHG (12-13% WHG), which is why they move a lot in the direction of Iberia and southern France.

    ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b plots with the southern French because he might have 14.4% of WHG.

    Two Etruscans also have high WHG (8%) but it is more in line with northern Italy than with Iberia/southern France; Villanovan R1015 has around 13% of WHG but her steppe related ancestry is lower than that calculated in the paper. So here it could be lack of accuracy on my side.

    ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1 has the lowest WHG (3%) and higher steppe-related ancestry (37%) and that's why she ends up with the Italians in the PCA and not with Iberians and Southern French. This sample plots with Italian Piedmont and not distantly from other Italian clusters. Liguria has only one sample, so it doesn't form a cluster.

    ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b in the PCA plots in the Bergamo and Veneto clusters (in the area of intersection between these two clusters).

    In the PCA I highlighted the clusters of the regions of Tuscany, Piedmont, Lombardy, Bergamo (Lombardy), Veneto.




    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What happened to the other samples, especially 850?

    ITA_Etruscan_o:RMPR475b seems to be only a 1/4 North African, definitely not half North African. Also nMonte suggests this.

    In the PCA there are also the two Latin outliers.

    ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b and ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o:RMPR850


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    Illyrians are Indo-European speakers, what do they have to do with Etruscans?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    We also have specific R1b clades in sardinia shared with Alb:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563/

    Pf7562 has highest european diversity and frequency in Albanians. Arguing these are not relatwd to the movement of l283 from* albania seems forced.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    These WHG results are seriously weird!
    The outliers list is almost at the end of the pdf, maybe some people didn’t see it, and they focused their attention on other samples.

    ... giving the benefit of the doubt :)



    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Assuming that nMonte with G25 is accurate, the Latins all have a high WHG (12-13% WHG), which is why they move a lot in the direction of Iberia and southern France.

    ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b plots with the southern French because he might have 14.4% of WHG.

    Two Etruscans also have high WHG (8%) but it is more in line with northern Italy than with Iberia/southern France; Villanovan R1015 has around 13% of WHG but her steppe related ancestry is lower than that calculated in the paper. So here it could be lack of accuracy on my side.

    ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1 has the lowest WHG (3%) and higher steppe-related ancestry (37%) and that's why she ends up with the Italians in the PCA and not with Iberians and Southern French. This sample plots with Italian Piedmont and not distantly from other Italian clusters. Liguria has only one sample, so it doesn't form a cluster.

    ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b in the PCA plots in the Bergamo and Veneto clusters (in the area of intersection between these two clusters).

    In the PCA I highlighted the clusters of the regions of Tuscany, Piedmont, Lombardy, Bergamo (Lombardy), Veneto.







    ITA_Etruscan_o:RMPR475b seems to be only a 1/4 North African, definitely not half North African. Also nMonte suggests this.

    In the PCA there are also the two Latin outliers.

    ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b and ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o:RMPR850

    Thanks. It's difficult for me to make out the separate clusters sometimes.

    Also, it just seemed to me that in the PCA in the paper the samples seemed more to be in an almost no man's land between Spain and northern Italy.

    If you don't mind, where would Parma Beakers place in relation to this?

    As the result of that huge gap for the Bronze Age in their analysis it makes it difficult to figure out the direction of flow for the steppe admixed people. Certainly a Balkan route makes sense. Connections with Apennine Culture always hinted at that, but what about a route through the Alps, or even from the direction of France? Was it predominantly one route, a combination? Might Latial be a different route from Villanovan?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    I think there must some kind of odd projection bias in the Global25 PCAs. They look nothing like the academic ones from the study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think there must some kind of odd projection bias in the Global25 PCAs. They look nothing like the academic ones from the study.

    Likely. There's nothing weird about it. They're different tools. Rarely what you see in the papers is exactly identical to what is seen with these amateur tools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Likely. There's nothing weird about it. They're different tools. Rarely what you see in the papers is exactly identical to what is seen with these amateur tools.
    True,

    Here are the southern Italian-like samples highlighted according to region. I used the results that Kingjohn provided, from Global25 FST. Here you can see that samples from Umbria, and Marche cluster closer to the South. The real genetic break is north of these regions. Based on these results, I see a lot of Campanians are similar to many samples:



    Lazio: 1283
    Puglia: 113, 836, 107, 57
    Campania: 56, 58, 64, 65, 1290, 437, 47, 131, 835, 1544, 32, 35, 136,
    Basilica: 49, 54, 973,
    East Sicily: 51, 122, 52, 53, 59,
    West Sicily: 60
    Calabria: 30, 117,
    Abruzzo: 1549,
    Umbria, 111, 118, 969, 970,
    Marche: 36, 120, 121, 1285, 1287,



    I would suspect Calabrians, or East Sicilians to be closest to the 850 Ardea Latini sample.

    Campanians are closest to the 435 Latin.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks. It's difficult for me to make out the separate clusters sometimes.

    Also, it just seemed to me that in the PCA in the paper the samples seemed more to be in an almost no man's land between Spain and northern Italy.

    If you don't mind, where would Parma Beakers place in relation to this?

    As the result of that huge gap for the Bronze Age in their analysis it makes it difficult to figure out the direction of flow for the steppe admixed people. Certainly a Balkan route makes sense. Connections with Apennine Culture always hinted at that, but what about a route through the Alps, or even from the direction of France? Was it predominantly one route, a combination? Might Latial be a different route from Villanovan?

    Sure, no problem. On the basis of the three Parma Bell Beaker samples it is not clear if there were different routes.

    Bell_Beaker_ITA:I1979 is very close to ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b. This sample has both steppe-related ancestry and WHG similar to what two Etruscans and the north Italians have.

    Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2477 is a modern Sardinian.

    Instead Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2478 is close to ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b which plots with Spaniards and Southern French and has more steppe-related ancestry but also the highest value of WHG, almost 14%.

    The difference is all around this WHG.



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    Quote Originally Posted by RHAS View Post
    What happened to J1 after imperial Rome? Did they coincidentally took samples from some immigrant cemetery? Or perhaps some Phoenicians which they happen to have selected. At the very least, one could argue that immigration into Rome stopped at some point. And J1 was absorbed by the locals. As such it decreased rapidly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Very interesting, thank you very much Regio X. If we really want to face this discussion, however, we must place archaeologically the individual found in Croatia who was J2b2a-L283. It is not enough to say that he was proto-Illyrian. What was the bronze culture to which he belonged? In the autosomal DNA he had a significant amount of steppe-related ancestry.
    Let's remember, this individual was a 5-7 year old boy, found near the town of Vrgorac in Split-Dalmatia County, in southern Croatia.
    Individual I4331, dated 1631-1521 calBCE (~3591 ybp), Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a-L283 mtDNA: I1a1
    Thanks, Pax! I agree that the individual must be "contextualized", and also that other variables may possibly help to "refine" the chances we're talking about, since there is a window of time. I focused on the "crude" data, and started the analysis from informations shared in this thread. If I had the time, I'd check details on the "proto-Illyrian" Y-DNA.The categorization of the Etruscan was confirmed by Ted Kandell. These papers usually don't provide the most deep assignments possible. Even errors may occur. For example, Ted assures that R55 guy was G-S2808, whereas the paper suggests G-Z30771. At least they agree he was G-CTS4803.

    @Mals
    SNP and STR diversities are important references, but so is ancient DNA. Natufians should supposedly be mainly G2a, yet E1b was likely the "protagonist" among them. So, what if there wasn't such old sample in Croatia? Who would tell based only on SNP diversity* and hg distribution? Which doesn't mean what you talked isn't interesting, neither that we should despise all "ifs" and third clues, jumping to simple conclusions from isolated data or monodisciplinary approaches.
    Your info on more than 99% of Albanians belonging to the same J-Z638, if accurate, seems also interesting. Is that so? Literally more than 99%? Wow!

    *Generally speaking, wider areas may also be used as reference when it comes to estimate SNP diversity, not only specific countries, so ok. It depends. Still...

    But I'd be careful especially with those Sardinians below J-Z2507. It seems possible they belong to a different context compared to those under J-YP29, J-YP157 and J-YP113. Apparently Cagliari is "overrepresented" in YFull, that's why you may find there Sardinians in "improbable" branches, and it's possible J-Z2507 is one of them. This overrepresentation doesn't seem to explain per se the several Sardinians under those three though.
    Briefly looking YFull results only (no time for FTDNA's, where I'd consider mainly confirmed results rather than predictions), particularly I wouldn't rule out the possibility of J-L283 MRCA originating in Sardinia. If so, they would have left the island very early, possibly before 4200 ybp. In this case, that basal G-Y15058 Sardinian in YFull could result from a "back migration" (indeed, notice that IT-CA doesn't develop that much downstream G-Z2507, despite the mentioned "overrepredentation"), but it's also possible, "in theory", G-Y15058 originated in Sardinia, and, if so, the "out of Sardinia" would have possibly happened after 4400 ybp.
    But... It also seems possible a flow of J-L283 from Balkans to Sardinia beginning very early. Here, sampling bias could perhaps explain the apparent abscence of basal J-L283 in Balkans, after all, they're almost completely G-Z638, at the same time there are tons of Sardinians in YFull.
    Both are however speculative. :)

    As a side note: low frequency and high SNP diversity may coexist. There are many examples, and G-M201 in Armenia, according to Rootsi et al. 2012, is one of them.

    That's also a crude lecture of mine which involves too many assumptions. It still seems an open question. At least for me.
    Feel free to elaborate, but this is my last post about it, 'cause the thread is not on J-L283. If the point is showing that this movement from Balkans to Italy could have happened, then I agree. It seems very possible, as far as I can see. And it's also possible the clade is "Italian" in origin, ending up in Balkan soon enough, also as far as I can see. Who knows!
    Further ancient DNAs may help to solve the "J-L283 mistery".

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Sure, no problem. On the basis of the three Parma Bell Beaker samples it is not clear if there were different routes.

    Bell_Beaker_ITA:I1979 is very close to ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b. This sample has both steppe-related ancestry and WHG similar to what two Etruscans and the north Italians have.

    Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2477 is a modern Sardinian.

    Instead Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2478 is close to ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b which plots with Spaniards and Southern French and has more steppe-related ancestry but also the highest value of WHG, almost 14%.

    The difference is all around this WHG.


    Really as the subject has advanced. Congratulations to the authors of the graphics, spectacular. I am pleasantly surprised when I have seen the graphic with my own personal samples Penestrini. 435, Etruscan 474 and Belle Beker Italy I2478 and how they are situated and related.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Thanks Jovialis, cool :) I circle them out in red in the connected square.
    Sample R850 was found in the necroplis of campo del fico in 1982 by E.Tortorici.......the necropolis was only open for use from 600 bc to 800 bc....it had 24 bodies, 11 male , 10 female and 3 children.....all pottery in the necroplis is the etruscan Bucchero style
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    According to the study, here is where modern populations plot in comparison with the Rome samples. It looks like modern south Italy has a lot of similarity with many of the samples.1F6BEED3-EF9A-420A-9321-FFF12771E494.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think there must some kind of odd projection bias in the Global25 PCAs. They look nothing like the academic ones from the study.
    That is always a problem for me.

    I mean no disrespect to Brick; he's just using the Global 25 created by Polako.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    @Pax Augusta @Regio X

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Very interesting, thank you very much Regio X. If we really want to face this discussion, however, we must place archaeologically the individual found in Croatia who was J2b2a-L283. It is not enough to say that he was proto-Illyrian. What was the bronze culture to which he belonged? In the autosomal DNA he had a significant amount of steppe-related ancestry.


    Let's remember, this individual was a 5-7 year old boy, found near the town of Vrgorac in Split-Dalmatia County, in southern Croatia.


    Individual I4331, dated 1631-1521 calBCE (~3591 ybp), Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a-L283 mtDNA: I1a1
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Thanks, Pax! I agree that the individual must be "contextualized", and also that other variables may possibly help to "refine" the chances we're talking about, since there is a window of time. I focused on the "crude" data, and started the analysis from informations shared in this thread. If I had the time, I'd check details on the "proto-Illyrian" Y-DNA.The categorization of the Etruscan was confirmed by Ted Kandell. These papers usually don't provide the most deep assignments possible. Even errors may occur. For example, Ted assures that R55 guy was G-S2808, whereas the paper suggests G-Z30771. At least they agree he was G-CTS4803.

    @Mals
    SNP and STR diversities are important references, but so is ancient DNA. Natufians should supposedly be mainly G2a, yet E1b was likely the "protagonist" among them. So, what if there wasn't such old sample in Croatia? Who would tell based only on SNP diversity* and hg distribution? Which doesn't mean what you talked isn't interesting, neither that we should despise all "ifs" and third clues, jumping to simple conclusions from isolated data or monodisciplinary approaches.
    Your info on more than 99% of Albanians belonging to the same J-Z638, if accurate, seems also interesting. Is that so? Literally more than 99%? Wow!

    *Generally speaking, wider areas may also be used as reference when it comes to estimate SNP diversity, not only specific countries, so ok. It depends. Still...

    But I'd be careful especially with those Sardinians below J-Z2507. It seems possible they belong to a different context compared to those under J-YP29, J-YP157 and J-YP113. Apparently Cagliari is "overrepresented" in YFull, that's why you may find there Sardinians in "improbable" branches, and it's possible J-Z2507 is one of them. This overrepresentation doesn't seem to explain per se the several Sardinians under those three though.
    Briefly looking YFull results only (no time for FTDNA's, where I'd consider mainly confirmed results rather than predictions), particularly I wouldn't rule out the possibility of J-L283 MRCA originating in Sardinia. If so, they would have left the island very early, possibly before 4200 ybp. In this case, that basal G-Y15058 Sardinian in YFull could result from a "back migration" (indeed, notice that IT-CA doesn't develop that much downstream G-Z2507, despite the mentioned "overrepredentation"), but it's also possible, "in theory", G-Y15058 originated in Sardinia, and, if so, the "out of Sardinia" would have possibly happened after 4400 ybp.
    But... It also seems possible a flow of J-L283 from Balkans to Sardinia beginning very early. Here, sampling bias could perhaps explain the apparent abscence of basal J-L283 in Balkans, after all, they're almost completely G-Z638, at the same time there are tons of Sardinians in YFull.
    Both are however speculative. :)

    As a side note: low frequency and high SNP diversity may coexist. There are many examples, and G-M201 in Armenia, according to Rootsi et al. 2012, is one of them.

    That's also a crude lecture of mine which involves too many assumptions. It still seems an open question. At least for me.
    Feel free to elaborate, but this is my last post about it, 'cause the thread is not on J-L283. If the point is showing that this movement from Balkans to Italy could have happened, then I agree. It seems very possible, as far as I can see. And it's also possible the clade is "Italian" in origin, ending up in Balkan soon enough, also as far as I can see. Who knows!
    Further ancient DNAs may help to solve the "J-L283 mistery".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The outliers list is almost at the end of the pdf, maybe some people didn’t see it, and they focused their attention on other samples.

    ... giving the benefit of the doubt :)





    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf
    Imo, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

    However, that said, the paper also doesn't inspire the greatest confidence in their characterization of these samples with so many samples with these kinds of numbers for WHG.

    We also have a quasi "Carthaginian" sample. Why on earth use Iberomaurusian?

    I'm always disappointed in the papers that come out of Stanford. Maybe because they're taking cues from Piazza's clique, who haven't had a new idea in two decades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Few quotes about these connections from archaeologist Govedarica who wrote on Dinara culture (Posušje culture per other archaeologist who researched it) from 1989.

    By differentiating Dinara and Cetina culture and by placing the older phase of Dinara culture within the frame of the Br. A2 period, a need arises to reassess the chronological evaluation of the origin of handles with Axe-like extensions, that are among the most recognizable traits in the pottery material of this culture. The question of appearance of these forms in the Middle-Adriatic area is not resolved in an appropriate manner, and this problem is showing itself as one of the most critical moments in the cultural and chronological evaluation of this culture..


    Handles of this type ("anse ad ascia") are best documented on the Apennine peninsula and in the Southeast France, their mass appearance is being connected with the proto-Apennine culture ("proto-apenninico B") whose datation is not fully agreed upon but is most commonly placed in the period which corresponds to the younger phase of the Early Bronze Age per South German chronology, that is Br. A2.


    Individual finds of "pseudobrassarda" from the Dinara culture also have best analogues in the area of Northern Italy, in the late Polada culture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apennine_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polada_culture
    Thank you, as soon as I have time I read everything and I look for more information in the books in Italian, English, French and German that I own. And I answer you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Thanks, Pax! I agree that the individual must be "contextualized", and also that other variables may possibly help to "refine" the chances we're talking about, since there is a window of time. I focused on the "crude" data, and started the analysis from informations shared in this thread. If I had the time, I'd check details on the "proto-Illyrian" Y-DNA. The categorization of the Etruscan was confirmed by Ted Kandell. These papers usually don't provide the most deep assignments possible. Even errors may occur. For example, Ted assures that R55 guy was G-S2808, whereas the paper suggests G-Z30771. At least they agree he was G-CTS4803. .

    Agreed, errors may occur. On the other hand, sometimes we get obsessed with the details when in these papers what is most important is the whole picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    The problem with you is that, you already start with a basis which is based on logical fallacy. You already concluded in your mind that Y-DNA J2b2 is Indo-European despite being non-existent at any Indo-European speaking people except for Albanians that they might have well incorporated from non-IE speaking people from the Balkans.

    You cannot make conclusion from scarce almost to non-existent proofs.

    So far, and so less. I am seeing a pattern, Nuragics to a degree, Etruscans to a certain degree, if J2b2 is continued to be found among shore Mediterraneans and Anatolians then this logical puzzle will be solved.
    are you ok?
    J2b2 is the most obvious Indo-European haplogroup besides R1a. It stretches from India, Bangladesh to Portugal and all in between with low frequency, but present everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Sample R850 was found in the necroplis of campo del fico in 1982 by E.Tortorici.......the necropolis was only open for use from 600 bc to 800 bc....it had 24 bodies, 11 male , 10 female and 3 children.....all pottery in the necroplis is the etruscan Bucchero style
    The necropolis time period fits in with when Rome was an etruscan colony

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    What happened to J1 after imperial Rome? Did they coincidentally took samples from some immigrant cemetery? Or perhaps some Phoenicians which they happen to have selected. At the very least, one could argue that immigration into Rome stopped at some point. And J1 was absorbed by the locals. As such it decreased rapidly.
    This fact was raised a couple of times upthread. A number of samples come from the cemetery for the port city of Ostia. Some others come from the catacombs, and we know early Christians were usually foreign, including Jews.

    Unfortunately, these graves provide no context whatsoever. The authors mention inscriptions having been found with Greek names, for example, but if you read the Supplement it's clear that was a general statement, and none of the samples they present have any context as to background, class etc.

    It's very disappointing, nothing like what Patrick Geary was able to get and do with the Langobard cemetery in Piemonte.

    The least they could have done is checked to see if the samples which plot south and east of modern Italians come predominantly from certain cemeteries.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is not meant to be a thread about one particular y lineage.

    I think all the possibilities have been exhausted, and there is no way currently to decide the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That is always a problem for me.
    I mean no disrespect to Brick; he's just using the Global 25 created by Polako.
    Indeed, I too use Polako's calculators. Despite the fact I disagree on key interpretations. But I always make sure to look at it relative to the academic results. As well as the ancient samples relative to one another.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Sample R850 was found in the necroplis of campo del fico in 1982 by E.Tortorici.......the necropolis was only open for use from 600 bc to 800 bc....it had 24 bodies, 11 male , 10 female and 3 children.....all pottery in the necroplis is the etruscan Bucchero style
    What are you trying to suggest, Torzio? If you're insinuating that sample R850 might be Etruscan, you must have the courage to write it down.

    This reminds me a lot when you always confused the alphabet/script with the language. Which is an incredible mistake.

    Etruscans were the most influential cultural group in this period and the Latium Vetus, where the necropolis of Campo del Fico is located, was much backward both culturally and socially than Etruria. it is obvious that in this phase the Latins imitate the Etruscans, as the Etruscans had imitated the Greeks. Latium Vetus in this period has also many relations with southern Italy, especially with Campania.

    The Campo del Fico necropolis from Ardea belongs to the Orientalizing period of the Latial culture. So it is obvious that there may have been foreigners in Latium Vetus coming from outside Italy.






    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The necropolis time period fits in with when Rome was an etruscan colony

    Apart from the fact that it is very incorrect to call Rome an Etruscan colony, but on the other hand I realize that the level of discussion is this. And so what? Torzio you're really old enough to start taking these discussions more seriously.






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    I said I wouldn't talk about it anymore, but I'd like to thanks Duarte.

    @Duarte
    Thanks. je je
    He says "likely" (!) fully developed, then the ancient must have no reads for some equivalent(s). See my first post on the subject.

    @Pax
    Well, yes. Particularly, I'm not obsessed. At the end I was off-topic discussing a very specific point as if it were a thread on Y-DNA.

    @Angela
    Sorry. I'm done. That's a promise. :)

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