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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is not meant to be a thread about one particular y lineage.

    I think all the possibilities have been exhausted, and there is no way currently to decide the issue.
    Thanks Regio, you’re kind :)

    Sorry me Angela. :)

    In fact this is not a topic about the Y J2b2 lineage. In an effort to collaborate I did not see the observation below, made by Regio in his last post. Once again, sorry my lack of atention. Next time I be more careful in my posts, avoiding precipitation:

    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    That's also a crude lecture of mine which involves too many assumptions. It still seems an open question. At least for me.
    Feel free to elaborate, but this is my last post about it, 'cause the thread is not on J-L283. If the point is showing that this movement from Balkans to Italy could have happened, then I agree. It seems very possible, as far as I can see. And it's also possible the clade is "Italian" in origin, ending up in Balkan soon enough, also as far as I can see. Who knows!
    Further ancient DNAs may help to solve the "J-L283 mistery".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Thanks Regio, you’re kind :)

    Sorry me Angela. :)

    In fact this is not a topic about the Y J2b2 lineage. In an effort to collaborate I did not see the observation below, made by Regio in his last post. Once again, sorry my lack of atention. Next time I be more careful in my posts, avoiding precipitation:




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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @I was just going to respond to Torzio's post, and ask what point he was trying to make. :)

    So what if a Latin site had Etruscan pottery?

    Haven't we learned by now that pots are not always people? Were all the people who possessed Beaker pots the same in terms of autosomal genetics? Clearly not. Does the fact that goods from the Mediterranean wound up in graves in far northern Europe mean there was a mass migration from southern Europe to Denmark in the Bronze and Iron Age? I feel stupid just posing these questions.

    Sometimes pots are just pots, and the fact that a town of a neighboring culture had some Etruscan pots means absolutely nothing.

    If we've learned anything valuable from this paper, it's that the Etruscans had quite a bit of WHG. They didn't freaking come from Lydia in Anatolia.

    Is it so hard for some people to say: I WAS WRONG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How can you say a language came from the Near East, when the only person who posited such a link between Etruscan and any ancient Near Eastern languages is an amateur whose speculations aren't even considered in linguistic circles.
    I didn't. I have no idea where the Etruscan language came from (east, west, north, south, or right where it was). All that is relatively certain is that it wasn't Indo-European. The transmission of genes and a language/cultural package are two different things. Languages can expand, but also absorb other cultures (or be absorbed by them), while the genes of their original carriers can be progressively diminished, even disappear, over time. I don't doubt that the ancient population (a word with an Etruscan root) was largely genetically indistinguishable, regardless of on which side of the Tiber they dwelled.

    I mentioned the Sea Peoples only because the Etruscans were renowned in the classical world as seafarers, traders, and pirates, in contrast to the ancient Latins who were, from all accounts, farmers and landlubbers. Does that mean I think that Etruscan-speakers (let's leave gene-bearers aside) can be traced back to a branch of the Sea Peoples landing on the Italian shore circa 1100 BC? No, but they scattered widely, need not have all been Indo-Europeans, and might have had iron weapons, which the natives likely lacked. So, who knows? Not I.

    You mentioned the Bronze Age "gap" in the samples. A group coming in with the Copper Age expansion looking for metals (which Etruria had) can't automatically be excluded, it seems to me. Stuart Piggott in Ancient Europe archaeologically traces one such possible movement from the coast of the Near East, up the Adriatic, and then across the Alps to the Tyrol, with similar metallurgical technology and products cropping up at both ends. The Adriatic was named after Adria, an Etruscan port at the mouth of the Po. So, once again who knows?

    As to what I'm reading now, it is History of Florence by Machiavelli. Florence is, of course, smack dab in the middle of Tuscany.

    My paternal line (surname) came from Ireland to Virginia, possibly speaking Gaelic and as indentured servants, well over 200 years ago, then traveled to Pennsylvania, Iowa, Nebraska, and Bellingham, Washington, in the Pacific Northwest, where I was born. How much Irish "blood" still courses through my veins? My sister got tested (I haven't yet) and it said maybe 10%. I'm pretty much "Irish" in name only. If I claim it as a descent (from the Kings of Cork!), it is only when in an exceedingly romantic mood. (I have no children, but my sister's children are related to Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce Indian tribe through their father.)

    Personally, I believe most "high cultures" are hybrids and can't be traced back to a single line.
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

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    I always thought the Etruscans were related to the Raetians and therefore, mostly local. Sometimes legends are based in fact, so there may have been a small immigration from the eastern Aegean area.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    I always thought the Etruscans were related to the Raetians and therefore, mostly local. Sometimes legends are based in fact, so there may have been a small immigration from the eastern Aegean area.

    The "accounts" of the Greek authors on the origins of the Etruscans are all much more recent than the beginning of the Etruscan civilization, at least 500 years later. The first Greek sources mentioning the Etruscans do not refer to an eastern origin. The first ever is Hesiod around the eighth century BC, which places the Etruscans in Italy next to the Latins.

    While stories about the eastern origins of the Etruscans come out around 450 BC after groups of Greeks from Ionia migrated to southern Etruria, fleeing the Persian conquest of the Greek colonies of Asia Minor. Then the last Greek author to talk about it is Dionysius who criticizes all the previous Greek authors claiming that they are wrong and says that the Etruscans have always lived in Etruria, do not come from outside, and that other authors also supported this, authors whose fragments have not been preserved, for one reason or another.

    The Roman authors, on the other hand, were aware of the link between the Etruscans and the Raetians, even if they did not know how it originated. If the Roman authors knew it, both the Etruscans and the Raeti were perfectly aware of this link.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    What are you trying to suggest, Torzio? If you're insinuating that sample R850 might be Etruscan, you must have the courage to write it down.

    This reminds me a lot when you always confused the alphabet/script with the language. Which is an incredible mistake.

    Etruscans were the most influential cultural group in this period and the Latium Vetus, where the necropolis of Campo del Fico is located, was much backward both culturally and socially than Etruria. it is obvious that in this phase the Latins imitate the Etruscans, as the Etruscans had imitated the Greeks. Latium Vetus in this period has also many relations with southern Italy, especially with Campania.

    The Campo del Fico necropolis from Ardea belongs to the Orientalizing period of the Latial culture. So it is obvious that there may have been foreigners in Latium Vetus coming from outside Italy.









    Apart from the fact that it is very incorrect to call Rome an Etruscan colony, but on the other hand I realize that the level of discussion is this. And so what? Torzio you're really old enough to start taking these discussions more seriously.





    What are you assuming....all i stated was where the sample was found, the time period and the pottery found with it.....no point in you giving me a negative for the facts.....or do facts not count in this site.....you can make any story you want with the facts i supplied........just do NOT assume what i state

    Btw, R851 was found in the sanctuary next to the necropolis.....i will let you ASSUME what you want with that fact
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    What are you assuming....all i stated was where the sample was found, the time period and the pottery found with it.....no point in you giving me a negative for the facts.....or do facts not count in this site.....you can make any story you want with the facts i supplied........just do NOT assume what i state

    Btw, R851 was found in the sanctuary next to the necropolis.....i will let you ASSUME what you want with that fact

    There's really nothing to assume. They're all well-known facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    There's really nothing to assume. They're all well-known facts.
    Can we give a negative for a fact.....so was i wrong with the fact of where R850 was found and by who

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    @Pax about Burial 6 at Campo del Fico

    Do you a know if they’re talking about R850 or someone else ???

    ... Dated to the 3rd Lazio Era, of an adult male accompanied by a Cannon Spear, a Precious Sword with an ivory-bone handle and bronzed sheath ...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The "accounts" of the Greek authors on the origins of the Etruscans are all much more recent than the beginning of the Etruscan civilization, at least 500 years later. The first Greek sources mentioning the Etruscans do not refer to an eastern origin. The first ever is Hesiod around the eighth century BC, which places the Etruscans in Italy next to the Latins.

    While stories about the eastern origins of the Etruscans come out around 450 BC after groups of Greeks from Ionia migrated to southern Etruria, fleeing the Persian conquest of the Greek colonies of Asia Minor. Then the last Greek author to talk about it is Dionysius who criticizes all the previous Greek authors claiming that they are wrong and says that the Etruscans have always lived in Etruria, do not come from outside, and that other authors also supported this, authors whose fragments have not been preserved, for one reason or another.

    The Roman authors, on the other hand, were aware of the link between the Etruscans and the Raetians, even if they did not know how it originated. If the Roman authors knew it, both the Etruscans and the Raeti were perfectly aware of this link.
    Reading the commentary from amateur pop gen people online you would think Herodotus was the only ancient author who wrote about the Etruscans.

    Confirmation bias, much???

    It's so extreme that even ancient dna won't move them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    There's really nothing to assume. They're all well-known facts.
    I will give you some food for thought.......is this necropolis for these 24 people over a 200 year period a family necropolis or not....since the nearby sanctuary of graves held far more samples of which R851 was one ?

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    i will give you some food for thought.......is this necropolis for these 24 people over a 200 year period a family necropolis or not....since the nearby sanctuary of graves held far more samples of which r851 was one ?
    Clearly you can't read Italian, or if you read it, you don't understand it.

    Re-read Pax' post please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Pax about Burial 6 at Campo del Fico

    Do you a know if they’re talking about R850 or someone else ???

    ... Dated to the 3rd Lazio Era, of an adult male accompanied by a Cannon Spear, a Precious Sword with an ivory-bone handle and bronzed sheath ...
    Is there any news?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Clearly you can't read Italian, or if you read it, you don't understand it.
    Re-read Pax' post please.
    I cannot see it as i am not on my pc....what does it say as it will not expand on my mobile

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Is there any news?
    I was referring to the image with informations in Italian posted by Pax.

    Sorry I wasn’t clear

    I was asking if they’re talking about Carusu (R850)

    ... Dated to the 3rd Lazio Era, of an adult male accompanied by a Cannon Spear, a Precious Sword with an ivory-bone handle and bronzed sheath ...


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    To Salento

    It would not be bad for Mta to incorporate another tab in each sample with the type of burial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    To Salento

    It would not be bad for Mta to incorporate another tab in each sample with the type of burial.
    They should do that.

    Also they're probably already working on a new group of samples.

    We'll find out in the next 2 - 3 weekends :)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    For those who haven't got to the supplement yet: Ardea was part of the Latin League, but it was NOT Rome, and in fact at times was allied AGAINST Rome.


    Only two samples are from Ardea.


    The archaeological context as posited by the authors:







    More on Ardea:


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    @Pax,

    I kid you not, I think some of this comes from old legends that PERHAPS, according to Dionysios, King Turnus of the Rutuli was King of the Tyrrhenians, and therefore ETRUSCAN.

    Yeah, and Caesar was descended from Venus too.

    So, of course, if one of these two Latin samples can be modeled with some Copper or Bronze Age Anatolian, it can't have come from Campanians or other Southern Italians, or Greek artisans; it had to come from the Etruscans, even though with the exception of the woman with some North African, they don't look like that at all.

    Oy Veh! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For those who haven't got to the supplement yet: Ardea was part of the Latin League, but it was NOT Rome, and in fact at times was allied AGAINST Rome.


    Only two samples are from Ardea.


    The archaeological context as posited by the authors:







    More on Ardea:


    The only cult area I had ever heard mentioned for Monte Fico was for Bove (as in bovine), an agricultural deity.
    Today Ardea is part of Rome Metropolitan area.

    I'm thinking of the 5 New York City boroughs,

    If one is from Manhattan and the other from the Bronx (home of the New York Yankees) :) , they’re still New Yorkers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    I didn't. I have no idea where the Etruscan language came from (east, west, north, south, or right where it was). All that is relatively certain is that it wasn't Indo-European. The transmission of genes and a language/cultural package are two different things. Languages can expand, but also absorb other cultures (or be absorbed by them), while the genes of their original carriers can be progressively diminished, even disappear, over time. I don't doubt that the ancient population (a word with an Etruscan root) was largely genetically indistinguishable, regardless of on which side of the Tiber they dwelled.

    I mentioned the Sea Peoples only because the Etruscans were renowned in the classical world as seafarers, traders, and pirates, in contrast to the ancient Latins who were, from all accounts, farmers and landlubbers. Does that mean I think that Etruscan-speakers (let's leave gene-bearers aside) can be traced back to a branch of the Sea Peoples landing on the Italian shore circa 1100 BC? No, but they scattered widely, need not have all been Indo-Europeans, and might have had iron weapons, which the natives likely lacked. So, who knows? Not I.

    You mentioned the Bronze Age "gap" in the samples. A group coming in with the Copper Age expansion looking for metals (which Etruria had) can't automatically be excluded, it seems to me. Stuart Piggott in Ancient Europe archaeologically traces one such possible movement from the coast of the Near East, up the Adriatic, and then across the Alps to the Tyrol, with similar metallurgical technology and products cropping up at both ends. The Adriatic was named after Adria, an Etruscan port at the mouth of the Po. So, once again who knows?

    As to what I'm reading now, it is History of Florence by Machiavelli. Florence is, of course, smack dab in the middle of Tuscany.

    My paternal line (surname) came from Ireland to Virginia, possibly speaking Gaelic and as indentured servants, well over 200 years ago, then traveled to Pennsylvania, Iowa, Nebraska, and Bellingham, Washington, in the Pacific Northwest, where I was born. How much Irish "blood" still courses through my veins? My sister got tested (I haven't yet) and it said maybe 10%. I'm pretty much "Irish" in name only. If I claim it as a descent (from the Kings of Cork!), it is only when in an exceedingly romantic mood. (I have no children, but my sister's children are related to Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce Indian tribe through their father.)

    Personally, I believe most "high cultures" are hybrids and can't be traced back to a single line.
    I have always maintained, based on archaeology, and a knowledge of Etruscan culture, that there was no mass migration in the first millennium BC from Anatolia to Etruria.

    I furthermore never saw why that mountain of evidence should be discounted by the report of a Greek "historian" who lived 500 years after the fact, especially when other Greek "historians" saw it differently.

    Be that as it may, we now have the dna of the Etruscans. It most emphatically "isn't" the dna of Copper or Bronze Age Anatolians, or the dna of Aegean Greeks, who are among the best candidates for the "Sea Peoples", along with, of course, the Sardinians, the Sicilians, and the Etruscans themselves.

    Now, if someone wants to believe that perhaps an "elite" came from Anatolia to Etruria in the first millennium BC to create the Etruscan civilization, it's no skin off my nose, but the reality is that the history and the archaeology is against them, and there is no proof in the genetics.

    So, imo, it just looks like reluctance to give up cherished ideas, but hey, whatever floats their boat.

    As to "ancestry" or "ethnicity", I'm in a different situation. I know exactly where my ancestors have lived for at least the last approximately nine hundred years, and it's in a certain specific area of Italy. So, I don't think I'm on shaky ground in saying I'm 100% Italian.

    However, I do know what you're getting at. I too believe that layer after layer of migration and culture make up the modern ethnicities of today. That goes for every group, and perhaps for Italians more than for some.

    Decades of reading about Italian history and pre-history have taught me that, if nothing else.

    Clearly, CHG/Iran Neo ancestry is one of those layers. Heck, it had already arrived in Italy by the Neolithic, as I've been saying for ten years, to howls of derision I might add. I know it was in Sardinia and Sicily early, and I absolutely believe we'll see it in Southern Italy in the Bronze and Iron Age, and clearly it had reached the Latin areas by the first millennium BC, as per sample 850 as one example.

    None of that has anything to do with the Etruscans and the "theory" of their origin in the Anatolia of the first millennium BC.,or with the original Italics, for that matter.

  23. #298
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Today Ardea is part of Rome Metropolitan area.

    I'm thinking of the 5 New York City boroughs,

    If one is from Manhattan and the other from the Bronx (home of the New York Yankees) :) , they’re still New Yorkers.
    They were both Latins, so yes, your New York City analogy is apt.

    However, I was trying to clear up any confusion caused by Torzio's...confusion. ROME was ruled by the Etruscans. To my knowledge, the Rutuli of Ardea were not.


    In reality, of course, it's a tempest in a teapot. There was a constant flow of ideas and technology between these two groups living adjacent to one another, although it was usually from the Etruscans to the Latins, as the Etruscans had a more advanced civilization earlier on. Eventually, they battled one another and Rome (the Latins) won.

    The really amazing thing is that they could be so alike autosomally and yet one spoke an Indo-European language and the other did not. The Basques are another such mystery.

    I don't know of anyone who has an answer for that yet, although I do believe maybe we should be thinking of many groups moving west from the steppe, generally similar autosomally as mixtures of Copper Age "farmers" and steppe people, but with some differences, taking different routes, encountering slightly different groups, and with perhaps some picking up different languages. Or, Basque and Etruscan could be local "farmer" languages.

    Take your pick. :)

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    Why are certain people from Nazi sites pushing for a west Asian origin for etruscans? Wouldn't they instead want them to be indo European? Lol it kinda boggles my mind bc the etruscans were very influential
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have always maintained, based on archaeology, and a knowledge of Etruscan culture, that there was no mass migration in the first millennium BC from Anatolia to Etruria.

    I furthermore never saw why that mountain of evidence should be discounted by the report of a Greek "historian" who lived 500 years after the fact, especially when other Greek "historians" saw it differently.

    Be that as it may, we now have the dna of the Etruscans. It most emphatically "isn't" the dna of Copper or Bronze Age Anatolians, or the dna of Aegean Greeks, who are among the best candidates for the "Sea Peoples", along with, of course, the Sardinians, the Sicilians, and the Etruscans themselves.

    Now, if someone wants to believe that perhaps an "elite" came from Anatolia to Etruria in the first millennium BC to create the Etruscan civilization, it's no skin off my nose, but the reality is that the history and the archaeology is against them, and there is no proof in the genetics.

    So, imo, it just looks like reluctance to give up cherished ideas, but hey, whatever floats their boat.

    As to "ancestry" or "ethnicity", I'm in a different situation. I know exactly where my ancestors have lived for at least the last approximately nine hundred years, and it's in a certain specific area of Italy. So, I don't think I'm on shaky ground in saying I'm 100% Italian.

    However, I do know what you're getting at. I too believe that layer after layer of migration and culture make up the modern ethnicities of today. That goes for every group, and perhaps for Italians more than for some.

    Decades of reading about Italian history and pre-history have taught me that, if nothing else.

    Clearly, CHG/Iran Neo ancestry is one of those layers. Heck, it had already arrived in Italy by the Neolithic, as I've been saying for ten years, to howls of derision I might add. I know it was in Sardinia and Sicily early, and I absolutely believe we'll see it in Southern Italy in the Bronze and Iron Age, and clearly it had reached the Latin areas by the first millennium BC, as per sample 850 as one example.

    None of that has anything to do with the Etruscans and the "theory" of their origin in the Anatolia of the first millennium BC.,or with the original Italics, for that matter.


    Indeed, and as you have said in previous threads, modern day Italians really are formed in the medieval era. The paper confirms that the true ethnogenisis of the modern day Italians emerged out of the rural people taking back the cities.

    Towns like my father's being re-settled after 300 years of abandonment in the 1200s, under Federico II Di Svevia. Perhaps with people who owe much of their ancestry to groups that preceded the Romans; who were closer to Bronze-Age groups in Southern Italy (i.e. this "Mediterranean C6" group).

    Also, the 850, and 437 are considered "Mediterranean C6", at least according to their grouping in the chart above. These kind of people would surely have been part of the re-settlement in the South, considering me, Salento, and your husband get 850 in our results. As well as the Center, considering the the chart is actually of that (40%/60%).

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