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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Like I said, the sample is in the C6 grouping. Not near eastern, or even eastern Mediterranean.

    Also:
    ok so he doesn't know how to use nmonte .......

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    someone from eurogenes blog i think it is nmonte :

    The outlier from IA Ardea
    looks interesting:



    [1] "distance%=3.8939"

    ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o

    Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,60.6
    Yamnaya_Samara,13.5
    Natufian,11.8
    Barcin_N,11.1
    Ganj_Dareh_N,1.6
    Han,0.8
    WHG,0.6
    Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren,0
    Morocco_Iberomaurusian,0
    Yoruba,0

    Predominantly Anatolia_BA with some Natufian!









    The outlier from Praeneste
    has also a lot of Anatolia_BA:


    [1] "distance%=1.6679"

    ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o

    Barcin_N,37.6
    Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,25.1
    Yamnaya_Samara,17.6
    Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren,16.9
    WHG,2.3
    Natufian,0.5
    Ganj_Dareh_N,0
    Morocco_Iberomaurusian,0
    Han,0
    Yoruba,0
    Total B.S.

    Here's a novel idea. :)

    There were two samples found in Ardea, same time period.

    How about modeling sample 850 with the genes from the other Ardean and see what else has to be added?

    OH, WAIT! They already did that in the paper.

    The clique at anthrogenica just doesn't like that result. Too bad, so sad.

    The problem, Ironside, whoever you are, is that the paper shows that the change in the Italian gene pool was from "added" ancestry from Anatolia, and the Caucasus, not the Levant. It also shows the "LEVANT TAIL" disappeared from the gene pool of modern Central Italians. I'm sure Sikeliot/Azzurro, and maybe Agamemnon and all their socks are devastated, but there it is.

    These two "outliers" show that ancestry from that part of the world arrived in Central Rome very early; it didn't need to wait for hordes of Syrians or Jews who came as slaves in the Empire. My bet is that they either came from Greeks as prized artisans and teachers, or migrated up from Southern Italy.

    Not that I would have had a problem with the Levant ancestry staying, God knows. From my own subjective world view better Levantine craftsmen and merchants than marauding Goths and Langobards from whose depredations it took us almost 2000 years to recover.

    Facts are sometimes inconvenient things, but they have to be accepted to keep your own sense of honor intact and to be respected by those whom you yourself respect.

    Honestly, anyone with any intellectual honesty should boycott that thread on anthrogenica. How can people support such blatant dishonesty in analysis?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    that graphic with the "admixtures" over time doesn't give you the ancestry based on real modern or old populations, so it isn't really usefull if you want to understand the ethnogenesis. i mean just look at the farmers admixture.
    you could make the assumption that the cluster C6 was always present and roughly always corresponded to the same population in italy. then you could say something about ethnogenesis, but it's just an assumption and you could miss out a lot of possible details.
    and surprise, if you try to model for example the imperial samples with samples of the exact same study they will probably be modeled by themselves.
    i think based on this graphic you can only say that early modern rome can be modeled as a mix of a theoretical population that looks modern north italian and a theoretical population that looks modern south italian.
    Exactly right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Total B.S.

    Here's a novel idea. :)

    There were two samples found in Ardea, same time period.

    How about modeling sample 850 with the genes from the other Ardean and see what else has to be added?

    OH, WAIT! They already did that in the paper.

    The clique at anthrogenica just doesn't like that result. Too bad, so sad.

    The problem, Ironside, whoever you are, is that the paper shows that the change in the Italian gene pool was from "added" ancestry from Anatolia, and the Caucasus, not the Levant. It also shows the "LEVANT TAIL" disappeared from the gene pool of modern Central Italians. I'm sure Sikeliot/Azzurro, and maybe Agamemnon and all their socks are devastated, but there it is.

    These two "outliers" show that ancestry from that part of the world arrived in Central Rome very early; it didn't need to wait for hordes of Syrians or Jews who came as slaves in the Empire. My bet is that they either came from Greeks as prized artisans and teachers, or migrated up from Southern Italy.

    Not that I would have had a problem with the Levant ancestry staying, God knows. From my own subjective world view better Levantine craftsmen and merchants than marauding Goths and Langobards from whose depredations it took us almost 2000 years to recover.

    Facts are sometimes inconvenient things, but they have to be accepted to keep your own sense of honor intact and to be respected by those whom you yourself respect.

    Honestly, anyone with any intellectual honesty should boycott that thread on anthrogenica. How can people support such blatant dishonesty in analysis?
    i also think so
    regards
    adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    I thought it was a settlement within Rome based on that map. No?

    Yes, ANSA is the owner of the land where this necropolis was discovered, near Acilia in the southern suburb of Rome. Often archaeological finds in Italy (and I imagine that it happens abroad as well) are found by accident during public works or road building.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have to go back and check, but doesn't the excerpt I published indicate the rich hoard was Bronze Age? Aren't the samples we're discussing from a later period as per your graphic? Excellent information in this post, btw, but I'm out of ammunition. :)

    There are too many necropolises in Rome, I can not find a scientific publication avalaible that explains in detail the necropolis of Campo del Fico. The page previously posted comes from a book that costs only 250 euros :), and the information continued on the following pages.

    https://www.amazon.it/Sepolture-prin.../dp/B01K058CRM


    According to a booklet, the Campo del Fico necropolis dates from 11th century BC (end of the bronze) to the 6th century B.C. It is necessary to see if there have been any updates. While in this paper evidently only skeletal materials from two individuals dated VIII (700 B.C) and VI century BC (500 BC) have been analyzed.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Guys, I would appreciate your opinion on these calculations. How reliable do you think they are?

    If they are indeed reliable, what's with all the fuss people are making and the "shocking discoveries" and Near Eastern signal and this significant genetic shift of Italy and coastal Spain and France in comparison to the Republican samples?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but as the Roman Republic grew larger into becoming an empire and giving citizenship to more and more subdued/allied nations, it's obvious that the probability to encounter foreigners in cemeteries near Rome and other metropolitan areas are logically way higher.

    Any of you actually calculated approximately this "Near Eastern signal" that actually managed to survive past Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages in Latium and Italy in general? What percentage are we talking about?

    I believe my opinion on the matter is obvious, but I'm trying hard to see it also from the perspective of people who don't agree with me and have a completely different take on the matter. What's "justifying" their views if that's even the correct word to use. Or plain racism?

    In one matter, I am in complete agreement with the paper, as the data is unambiguous: The "tail into the Levant" ( and yDna J1, btw) which was seen in the Imperial Age is GONE by Late Antiquity (contrary to a "theory" pushed by these same people that whole bunches of Levantine Christians and Anatolian Christians came flooding into Italy precisely during Late Antiquity; right, they left the relative safety of the east for the war zone that was Italy) and the Early Middle Ages and the Modern Era. What remains in Central Italy is more CHG/Iran Neo than was seen in the Etruscans and most early Latins.

    So the only question is why that is the case. I think a good chunk of it is ancestry flowing north from Southern Italy with perhaps some directly from Greece and the Aegean and perhaps some from Asia Minor. Some of it was even there in the Neolithic, perhaps partly by way of Northern Greece.

    It's as simple and unarguable as that. There is no wiggle room which the denizens of anthrogenica/theapricity can use to prove masses of Levantine ancestry in Central Italy.

    If someone can show me lots of Northern European yDna in Central Italy I'll believe that's what erased the signal.

    I really couldn't care less if that's a disappointment to some people.
    Last edited by Angela; 14-11-19 at 00:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In one matter, I am in complete agreement with the paper, as the data is unambiguous: The "tail into the Levant" ( and yDna J1, btw) which was seen in the Imperial Age is GONE by Late Antiquity (contrary to a "theory" pushed by these same people that whole bunches of Levantine Christians and Anatolian Christians came flooding into Italy precisely during Late Antiquity; right, they left the relative safety of the east for the war zone that was Italy) and the Early Middle Ages and the Modern Era. What remains in Central Italy is more CHG/Iran Neo than was seen in the Etruscans and most early Latins.

    So the only question is why that is the case. I think a good chunk of it is ancestry flowing north from Southern Italy with perhaps some directly from Greece and the Aegean and perhaps some from Asia Minor. Some of it was even there in the Neolithic, perhaps partly by way of Northern Greece.

    It's as simple and unarguable as that. There is no wiggle room which the denizens of anthrogenica/theapricity can use to prove masses of Levantine ancestry in Central Italy.

    I really couldn't care less if that's a disappointment to some people.
    I pointed it out to these yo-yos repeatedly for years, just from what I knew from archaeology and history, and even from what public testing companies like 23andme showed. It was obvious from the latter that Southern Italians (and parts of Lazio today are indeed Southern Italian) have an excess of "Near Eastern" in the 23andme analysis, what they now call "West Asian", but that ancestry is, if you looked up their definition, which I did for them numerous times, Iranian and Caucasus and Anatolian ancestry, in other words, a mix of Anatolian Neolithic plus CHG/Iran Neo, and the reference samples for it were the Caucasus countries, Iran, and Turkey. Their proportion of what 23andme calls North African and where Southerners get MAYBE 2 % as a maximum, and Sicilians maybe a bit more, includes JORDAN AND PALESTINE.

    When people ignore things like this, you know they're not being honest.

    Heck, if you go back to the old calculators Dienekes did, mainland Greeks get the same or more of that "West Asian" ancestry. No wonder, looking at the make up of the Mycenaeans. Are the Mycenaeans, the heroes of one of the greatest western epic prose poems now not European? Only Beowulf qualifies? Tell that to the western European intelligentsia; Homer and Livy is what was drilled into the brains of the western elites, not Beowulf.

    One other thing: One reason J1 and the Levantine signal may have disappeared, besides the fact that real trade and business moved out of Rome, either to Ravenna, the new capital, or to Constantinople, might be because the Roman Emperors periodically exiled all Jews from Rome, both during the Imperial Era and later, and into the Middle Ages. Unfortunate, but true.

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    I'm going to steal this. It's from Razib Khan, and goes for pop gen sites too:

    "the democratization enabled by twitter of many voices means the really stupid get to talk too. my model for why online discourse is dumb: the dumb are online now."

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Well, well, the Reich Lab must be leaking like a sieve.

    It must be nice, Polako, to have someone in your pocket who's willing to talk to a White Nationalist Skinhead like yourself and also has contacts in the right places.

    So, ergo, the guy who told me he was going to prove to me that all Italians were descendants of slaves from North Africa and the Levant is now posting this:

    "The Germanic and East Med admixtures were definitely important factors in the formation of the modern Italian gene pool, but I feel that they were overstated in the paper, which, in my mind, made it out as if there were a couple of total population replacements in the Italian Peninsula since the Bronze Age.

    I think it's obvious that modern Italians largely derive from the Iron Age and even Bronze Age peoples of the area just by looking at their Y-haplogroups."

    Somehow, when I mention y lineages it's irrelevant, but when the Reich Lab think they're important, they're important.

    Oh, and he somehow has a nice new PCA too.

    "
    Update 13/11/2019: Here's another, similar PCA. This one, however, is based on genotype data, and it also highlights many more of the samples from the Antonio et al. paper. Considering these results, I'm tempted to say that the present-day Italian gene pool largely formed in the Iron Age, and that it was only augmented by population movements during later periods. The relevant datasheet is available here."

    My oh my, perhaps it's time to retire Archi and some of the other mouthpieces on eurogenes.

    Oh, and "Rob", whoever you are, who never wanted to admit he was from the Balkans, was banned and had to do who knows what to get to post again on eurogenes, now wants to brag about "Balkan" Emperors, the ones too incompetent to keep the Empire united, would you have the guts to make this statement to an Italian face to face, maybe someone who had ancestors who died or were maimed in those mountains, or do you only have the guts to do it anonymously from a computer?

    "
    But then heaps of Germanics (esp Goths) would have died of during Justinians ”reconquista”
    Even if some Italian patricians were allied with them; they did little fighting; and often readily joined whomever was winning
    ... kinda like WW1 :)"

    You miserable excuse for a man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm going to steal this. It's from Razib Khan, and goes for pop gen sites too:

    "the democratization enabled by twitter of many voices means the really stupid get to talk too. my model for why online discourse is dumb: the dumb are online now."
    This is too much.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm going to steal this. It's from Razib Khan, and goes for pop gen sites too:

    "the democratization enabled by twitter of many voices means the really stupid get to talk too. my model for why online discourse is dumb: the dumb are online now."
    Some people just cant handle different point of view, with arguments, As such they use vulgarity to despise the other. Of course online you have disrupters, provocateurs and demagogues but no one can monopolize the truth. An argument with facts will be more helpful.

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    1 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Thanks for the list:


    The Villanovan is an Etruscan, the Proto-Villanovan is a Proto-Italic (eastern Italics).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The Villanovan is an Etruscan, the Proto-Villanovan is a Proto-Italic (eastern Italics).
    Thanks,

    I'll modify it when I get a chance later.

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    Angela why are you so rage /mad
    On polako ...
    he is not my cup of tee also
    But it his own blog(eurogenes) and can write
    Whstever he wants.....
    In the end of the day we know the truth....

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    People can say what they want because even what we know least about all this we do not believe anything and well they are countries that already have a great international prestige and have changed the course of humanity having a deserved position in History with capital letters, a country could get the genetic value of an elf that wasn't going to change my idea about that country, say, Italy, Spain, France, England, Portugal, etc. Be criticized by one or the other there are the facts and that can not be erased by anyone.

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    i now notice that i joked about r1a before the paper
    went out it turn out
    in the imperial remains
    R1548 27 BCE - 300 CE Imperial Imperial Roman Imperial H2a R-F1345 Monterotondo
    R-1548 imperial 27bc-300ad MONTEROTONDO R-F1345

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    One of the most interesting takeaways from this study is the presence of our first L51(xL11) found in ancient DNA. Of all the groups, I am not terribly surprised that it was found in Italy, among the Latins, as that country is most certainly a hotspot for it today.

    Some food for thought thought. How could the Etruscans and Latins truly derive from the same groups? Is there anything in the Etruscan mythos that would suggest they derived from the steppes, or the CWC/BB cultures? At least with the Latin language there is a connection to the Celtic groups which would place them in a hypothetical central European homeland. It would also fit the R1b haplogroup as central Europe was most definitely a bifurcation point during the Bronze Age. That said, the similarity could be the results of centuries of mixing between Etruscan and Latins, or alternatively that one group of Latins adopted a preceeding Neolithic culture of what would become the Etruscans. This has been hypothesized for the Basque and Iberian languages, and what may be considered proto-Gauls or proto-Celtiberians moving south from adjacent France.
    Last edited by Aaron1981; 14-11-19 at 16:58. Reason: grammar, and it's still probably not perfect.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I neither forgive nor forget insults against me, my family, my friends, or my country. I make the best and most loving and loyal friend in the world, but I make a terrible enemy.

    You think I would forgive someone writing that we're mongrels who should be kicked out of Europe? That we're all descendants of slaves and are untermenschen? This, about a country and a people which have given so much to Europe and the world? I could make some comparisons, but I won't stoop to his level.

    He also had the effrontery to come on this site and tell me to shut up or I'd be sorry. What, I'm supposed to forget that he threatened me with his East European White Nationalist Goons? A prior moderator here had to call the authorities because they somehow found out his address and phone number.

    Well, I've never released enough info for them to find me. Plus, I don't scare easy, and I have my own contacts, legitimate ones, and let them try. How these Storm Front type people think they're invisible to the FBI is beyond me.

    He's also the one who had better watch out. I've saved tons of screenshots from the bad old days. He threatens me again and I'll publish them all. We'll see who leaks data to him then to protect him from egregious errors like the ones he made about the Mycenaeans.

    That's all over and above the fact that his mispredictions and misstatements are enough to fill the directory of a small city, and that in the bad old days he used to actually post how you can massage the data.

    So, now you had me repeat it, when I'm sure you already knew it. Fine.

    Now, back to the paper, and the remarkable about face we've now seen.

    Whatever will you guys at anthrogenica do now?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The Villanovan is an Etruscan, the Proto-Villanovan is a Proto-Italic (eastern Italics).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, well, the Reich Lab must be leaking like a sieve.

    It must be nice, Polako, to have someone in your pocket who's willing to talk to a White Nationalist Skinhead like yourself and also has contacts in the right places.

    So, ergo, the guy who told me he was going to prove to me that all Italians were descendants of slaves from North Africa and the Levant is now posting this:

    "The Germanic and East Med admixtures were definitely important factors in the formation of the modern Italian gene pool, but I feel that they were overstated in the paper, which, in my mind, made it out as if there were a couple of total population replacements in the Italian Peninsula since the Bronze Age.

    I think it's obvious that modern Italians largely derive from the Iron Age and even Bronze Age peoples of the area just by looking at their Y-haplogroups."

    Somehow, when I mention y lineages it's irrelevant, but when the Reich Lab think they're important, they're important.

    Oh, and he somehow has a nice new PCA too.

    "
    Update 13/11/2019: Here's another, similar PCA. This one, however, is based on genotype data, and it also highlights many more of the samples from the Antonio et al. paper. Considering these results, I'm tempted to say that the present-day Italian gene pool largely formed in the Iron Age, and that it was only augmented by population movements during later periods. The relevant datasheet is available here."

    My oh my, perhaps it's time to retire Archi and some of the other mouthpieces on eurogenes.

    Oh, and "Rob", whoever you are, who never wanted to admit he was from the Balkans, was banned and had to do who knows what to get to post again on eurogenes, now wants to brag about "Balkan" Emperors, the ones too incompetent to keep the Empire united, would you have the guts to make this statement to an Italian face to face, maybe someone who had ancestors who died or were maimed in those mountains, or do you only have the guts to do it anonymously from a computer?

    "
    But then heaps of Germanics (esp Goths) would have died of during Justinians ”reconquista”
    Even if some Italian patricians were allied with them; they did little fighting; and often readily joined whomever was winning
    ... kinda like WW1 :)"

    You miserable excuse for a man.
    IMG_3951.jpg

    From what I saw in this picture, the population change from the fathers of the Roman Republic seems drastic. Is this correct or you have a different opinion about it. Here the discussion is Rome not Italians.


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    he doesn't act like nazi in his site
    there was a member who cursed jews
    and he expelled him

    i don't believe he is nazi
    he has an agenda for sure on this i agree ...........

    p.s
    and even if he was
    people can change over the years ......
    i am sorry if he offended your country

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    IMG_3951.jpg

    From what I saw in this picture, the population change from the fathers of the Roman Republic seems drastic. Is this correct or you have a different opinion about it. Here the discussion is Rome not Italians.


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    Blevins, I've gone over this and over this, with analogies to modern western cities.

    Why don't you read my posts again, and if I wasn't clear about something I'll try to clear it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Whatever will you guys at anthrogenica do now?
    i don't think anthrogenica guys are really that much against italians or more precise against near easterners. looking through the threads there, it's actually not that bad, considering that such genetics sites are a magnet for racism, and people who try to find a piece of identity in their genes.
    for those who thought that possible near eastern ancestry in italians and other europeans is something bad, did the fact that most europeans derive from EEF/CHG from near east stop hating them on other people from near east and north africa? nope. they just started to make a difference between these people from near east and those other people from near east. hating a group of people/population is always irrational and ignorant. you can't do something against this with rational arguments.

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