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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i don't think anthrogenica guys are really that much against italians or more precise against near easterners. looking through the threads there, it's actually not that bad, considering that such genetics sites are a magnet for racism, and people who try to find a piece of identity in their genes.
    for those who thought that possible near eastern ancestry in italians and other europeans is something bad, did the fact that most europeans derive from EEF/CHG from near east stop hating them on other people from near east and north africa? nope. they just started to make a difference between these people from near east and those other people from near east. hating a group of people/population is always irrational and ignorant. you can't do something against this with rational arguments.
    Your bolded comments are wise indeed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    you can't do something against this with rational arguments.
    I fully-agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I neither forgive nor forget insults against me, my family, my friends, or my country. I make the best and most loving and loyal friend in the world, but I make a terrible enemy.

    You think I would forgive someone writing that we're mongrels who should be kicked out of Europe? That we're all descendants of slaves and are untermenschen? This, about a country and a people which have given so much to Europe and the world? I could make some comparisons, but I won't stoop to his level.

    He also had the effrontery to come on this site and tell me to shut up or I'd be sorry. What, I'm supposed to forget that he threatened me with his East European White Nationalist Goons? A prior moderator here had to call the authorities because they somehow found out his address and phone number.

    Well, I've never released enough info for them to find me. Plus, I don't scare easy, and I have my own contacts, legitimate ones, and let them try. How these Storm Front type people think they're invisible to the FBI is beyond me.

    He's also the one who had better watch out. I've saved tons of screenshots from the bad old days. He threatens me again and I'll publish them all. We'll see who leaks data to him then to protect him from egregious errors like the ones he made about the Mycenaeans.

    That's all over and above the fact that his mispredictions and misstatements are enough to fill the directory of a small city, and that in the bad old days he used to actually post how you can massage the data.

    So, now you had me repeat it, when I'm sure you already knew it. Fine.

    Now, back to the paper, and the remarkable about face we've now seen.

    Whatever will you guys at anthrogenica do now?
    I did not see anyone insulting you in this Rome forums. But even if somebody does the best way to counter it is politeness and hard facts. Of course would be provocateurs, disrupters but insulting anyone would not change the minds of one who think differently, or have an agenda. Its not that I am teaching you something you don't know, but I felt obligated to comment in relation to comments you directed to the person that was arguing about J2b presence in Etruscans. He had a valid point of partial connections of Etruscans with Illyrians based on common J2b clade. He was not been disruptive, or anthrogenics, he had an opinion. If we all had the same opinions would be no need for discussions.
    Peole try to

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Blevins, I've gone over this and over this, with analogies to modern western cities.

    Why don't you read my posts again, and if I wasn't clear about something I'll try to clear it up.
    Its known fact that Rome imported many people from middle east to construct their projects. Middle east was known for having world class architects for the time, or artisans, or engineers, shipbuilders and they were brought to Rome to advance Rome. Most were from Greece but Syrians were not far behind. I always think that genetic history of Rome made Italy a powerhouse of art and architecture

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    One of the most interesting takeaways from this study is the presence of our first L51(xL11) found in ancient DNA. Of all the groups, I am not terribly surprised that it was found in Italy, among the Latins, as that country is most certainly a hotspot for it today.

    Some food for thought thought. How could the Etruscans and Latins truly derive from the same groups? Is there anything in the Etruscan mythos that would suggest they derived from the steppes, or the CWC/BB cultures? At least with the Latin language there is a connection to the Celtic groups which would place them in a hypothetical central European homeland. It would also fit the R1b haplogroup as central Europe was most definitely a bifurcation point during the Bronze Age. That said, the similarity could be the results of centuries of mixing between Etruscan and Latins, or alternatively that one group of Latins adopted a preceeding Neolithic culture of what would become the Etruscans. This has been hypothesized for the Basque and Iberian languages, and what may be considered proto-Gauls or proto-Celtiberians moving south from adjacent France.
    The Etruscan sample from Veio (R1015, date range: 900 BCE - 800 BCE), which is labeled as Villanovan, already shows a similarity between Etruscans and Latins. So if there was a mix between the two populations, it is plausible that it happened much earlier, during the Bronze age. Before Iron Age ethnos were formed.

    Archaeologically, there are no significant differences in the processes that then lead to the formation of the two ethnos, the Etruscan and the Latin. Only the former speak a pre-Indo-European language and the latter a Indo-European one. The most marked differences emerge later and are cultural (an orientalising phase exists in both Etruria and Latium Vetus, but in Etruria it has a stronger impact, especially in southern Etruria). But this is true, to some extent, even if you compare Rome with the rest of Italy.

    Myths about the origins were born much later and are influenced by the Greeks and the Greek mindset and culture.

    Some Roman authors report that the Etruscans dated the birth of the "Etruscan nation" to the eleventh or tenth century BC, which coincides with the archaeological hypothesis based on very long research, which was made from the '70s and '80s, and which was discussed throughout the '90s, that the Proto-Etruscans emerge right around the eleventh century BC within a local facies of Protovillanovan culture in Etruria.

    It is important to underline that there are no chronological differences in the formation of the Etruscans, the Latins, Osco-Umbrians and even the ancient Veneti. The formation of all these ethnos takes place in parallel. The difference is due to the contacts with the Greeks of southern Italy. And those who had more contacts, especially initially, with the Greeks were the Etruscans, followed by the Latins who later became Romans.

    To complete the picture, we must also mention the role of the Phoenicians, who were the link between the Levant, North Africa, Italy (including Sardinia) and the Iberian world, and also the role of the Nuragics of Sardinia, who had long and prolonged commercial relations with the eastern Mediterranean as far as Cyprus, should also be remembered and their cultural contribution to the early stages of Etruscan civilization.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    @Tutkun

    No one in their right mind would deny any of that. The Imperial Era samples plot where they plot; their autosomal make up is what it is. I don't find it at all surprising.

    What doesn't seem to make an impression on Blevins or your mind is that there is no way of knowing who these Imperial Age people were. Were they Southern Italians already impacted by Bronze Age and Iron Age migrations perhaps mostly by way of Greece and the Balkans? Were they temporary traders from all over the Empire, but mostly from the East and, say, Egypt, because that was where the wealth was? Did they stay, maybe even for a few generations and then leave, or did they stay forever and intermingle? Even if they stayed, what happened to all these urban inhabitants?

    Do many of them look rather similar to the samples we have of ancient Greeks because they were Southern Italians who moved north and who not only had CHG/Iran Neo from the Neolithic, but from the Greeks of Magna Graecia, whom, one would assume, would still have the CHG/Iran Neo found in Mycenaeans. Did some of that ancestry perhaps come from Bronze Age movements, not forgetting that this would have arrived in combination with more Anatolian Neo, only the ratios being different?

    On the other hand, could some of them have been actual Greeks? Of course they could. They were the most prized slaves in the empire, certainly more prized than Illyrian gladiators, and those who were not enslaved still were given commissions, came to trade, etc. The same would have been true to some extent of the people of Asia Minor.

    Would some of them, living cheek by jowl in the huge crowded urban centers, and particularly Rome, or in port cities, have married? I'm sure some did.

    So, how many were just Southern Italians and how many came from Greece and the Greek islands or perhaps parts of Asia Minor under and not under Greek influence? Will we ever be able to tell the difference?

    Then there's the fact of the disappearance of this "tail" into the Levant. A related question is why, during Late Antiquity, did J1 disappear, but not J2? Lack of subsequent migrations might be one reason. Another reason might be that a lot of them were Jews who were periodically expelled. A third reason is that a lot of them were perhaps merchants and entrepreneurs, and toward the end of the Empire Rome and other cities like it began to decline terribly.

    The larger reason is that the cities of the Western Empire began to decline, partly because of disease, which spreads quicker in crowded urban centers when systems start to fail, partly because the Western Emperors weren't as good at buying off the barbarians as the Eastern Emperors were. Trade moved elsewhere, and traders of foreign descent moved elsewhere. In terms of Rome, in particular, it had declined so much that the capital of the western Empire was moved to Ravenna. That later emperors never set foot in Rome. Then, came the plague and the sacks by the Goths, and then the Gothic War with the Byzantines. They tried to take back at least Italy, even if the rest of the West was gone, but they couldn't, for reasons too complicated to explain here, but the result was an even more devastated Italy.

    Those who stayed in the cities were the poor, and they died.

    Then, who repopulated Rome and the other major cities? When someone shows me all this Germanic and British y Dna in Central Italy in Late Antiquity, and the Early Medieval period and then in Modern Central Italy, I'll believe the paper that there was a mass migration to Central Italy. Oh, and be sure to show me all the evidence for Northwestern and North/Central European migration into the depths of Calabria and Basilicata.

    Hell, there wasn't even a mass migration to Northern Italy. How much freaking I1 and U-106 is there???? That's a rhetorical question. The answer is not much. I'm sure there were more Gauls from the first millennium BC than from the Germanics of the invasions period.

    You people have always treated everything posted at eurogenes as gospel: well, now you have it from your apostle: Italian genetics was mostly complete in the Bronze and Iron Age, which Ralph and Coop said YEARS ago.

    ]

    Oh, and the new PCA posted at the eurogenes site:
    Last edited by Angela; 14-11-19 at 23:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some of it is pure, outright racism against any Europeans who carry CHG/Iran Neo which arrived at the wrong time for their liking, and with the wrong people, i.e. not with steppe people, but from Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age people who went to Greece, the Balkans, Italy, and further west in the Mediterranean from the east. Do I have to repeat that Polako said Southern Italians should be kicked out of Europe, or that he permits racist posts on his site from maniacs who say they're not "European" because they have too much of that ancestry? What, precisely, is too much ancestry from the Near East? If you add up all the Anatolian Neo and CHG and Iran Neo in Europe, even northern Europe is at 50=60%. Is that going to be the cut off?
    Elementary question. Isn't Steppe ancestry itself roughly 50% CHG/Iran Neo, with the balance Ancient North Eurasian and EHG? And isn't ANE found in Native Americans?

    My impression is that the only thing that distinguishes Southern Italians and Greeks from other Europeans is that they--or to speak in the first-person, "we"--carry more CHG and only a small fraction of EHG and ANE. And perhaps "we" also have some small percentage of North African admixture. But for the most part, all Europeans, including Southern Italians, are comprised of Anatolian Neolithic, CHG/Iranian Neolithic, and WHG.

    Do I at least have the fundamentals correct?

    And in reference to Angela's comments elsewhere in this thread, it would be nice if 23andme and other testing companies used the same nomenclature as academic scientists to describe various genetic components. So rather than say that Calabrians have lots of Middle Eastern ancestry (which is very vague and confusing), they should use terms like Anatolian Neolithic and CHG/Iranian Neolithic.

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    Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Tutkun

    No one in their right mind would deny any of that. The Imperial Era samples plot where they plot; their autosomal make up is what it is. I don't find it at all surprising.

    What doesn't seem to make an impression on Blevins or your mind is that there is no way of knowing who these Imperial Age people were. Were they Southern Italians already impacted by Bronze Age and Iron Age migrations perhaps mostly by way of Greece and the Balkans? Were they temporary traders from all over the Empire, but mostly from the East and, say, Egypt, because that was where the wealth was? Did they stay, maybe even for a few generations and then leave, or did they stay and intermingle? Even if they stayed, what happened to all these urban inhabitants?

    Do many of them look rather similar to Greeks because they were Southern Italians who moved north and who not only had CHG/Iran Neo from the Neolithic, but from the Greeks of Magna Graecia, whom, one would assume, would still have the CHG/Iran Neo found in Mycenaeans. Did some of that ancestry perhaps come from Bronze Age movements, not forgetting that this would have arrived in combination with more Anatolian Neo, only the ratios being different.

    On the other hand, could some of them have been actual Greeks or Anatolians? Of course they could. They were the most prized slaves in the empire, certainly more prized than Illyrian gladiators and those who were not enslaved still were given commissions, came to trade, etc.

    Would some of them, living cheek by jowl in the huge crowded urban centers, and particularly Rome, have married? I'm sure some did.

    So, how many were just Southern Italians and how many came from Greece and the Greek islands? Will we ever be able to tell the difference?

    Then there's the fact of the disappearance of this "tail" into the Levant. A related question is why, during Late Antiquity, did J1 disappear, but not J2? Lack of subsequent migrations might be one reason. Another reason might be that a lot of them were Jews who were periodically expelled. A third reason is that a lot of them were perhaps merchants and entrepreneurs, and toward the end of the Empire Rome and other cities like it began to decline terribly.

    The larger reason is that the cities of the Western Empire began to decline, partly because of plague, which spreads quicker in crowded urban centers. Partly because the Western Emperors weren't as good at buying off the barbarians as the Eastern Emperors were. Trade moved elsewhere, and traders of foreign descent moved elsewhere. In terms of Rome, in particular, it had declined so much that the capital of the western Empire was moved to Ravenna. That later emperors never set foot in Rome.

    Those who stayed were the poor, and they died.

    Then, who repopulated Rome and the other major cities? When someone shows me all this Germanic and British y Dna in Central Italy in Late Antiquity, and the Early Medieval period and Modern Central Italy, I'll believe the paper that there was a mass migration to Central Italy.

    Hell, there wasn't even a mass migration to Northern Italy. How much freaking I1 and U-106 is there???? That's a rhetorical question. The answer is not much. I'm sure there were more Gauls from the first millennium BC than from the Germanics of the invasions period.

    You people have always treated everything posted at eurogenes as gospel: well, now you have it from your apostle: Italian genetics was mostly complete in the Bronze and Iron Age, which Ralph and Coop said YEARS ago.

    ]

    Oh, and the new PCA posted at the eurogenes site:
    Never read eurogenes, but to tell you the truth I never expected this huge change from Roman Republic to Imperial Rome. It seems that based on this study the former citizens of Rome have become a minority considering also the sample limitations mentions by Angela.


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    Last edited by blevins13; 15-11-19 at 11:59.

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    Sorry, it seems to me you haven't read the post all that closely, or prior ones in this thread. Also take a look at the newest PCA, and see where modern Italian samples fall, where Iron Age samples fall, and where some of the Imperial samples fall.

    For someone who has lived in and near an international city for a few decades, the "internationality" of the Imperial Age samples is not a surprise at all. Half the people walking down the street around me are speaking a language I don't understand and don't look anything like me. Yet, someday, some archaeologists may dig up their bones and try to understand what the heck was going on.

    Let's see the genetic make-up of southern Italy in the Bronze and Iron Age and what that tells us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    Elementary question. Isn't Steppe ancestry itself roughly 50% CHG/Iran Neo, with the balance Ancient North Eurasian and EHG? And isn't ANE found in Native Americans?

    My impression is that the only thing that distinguishes Southern Italians and Greeks from other Europeans is that they--or to speak in the first-person, "we"--carry more CHG and only a small fraction of EHG and ANE. And perhaps "we" also have some small percentage of North African admixture. But for the most part, all Europeans, including Southern Italians, are comprised of Anatolian Neolithic, CHG/Iranian Neolithic, and WHG.

    Do I at least have the fundamentals correct?

    And in reference to Angela's comments elsewhere in this thread, it would be nice if 23andme and other testing companies used the same nomenclature as academic scientists to describe various genetic components. So rather than say that Calabrians have lots of Middle Eastern ancestry (which is very vague and confusing), they should use terms like Anatolian Neolithic and CHG/Iranian Neolithic.
    Indeed, you do have it right.

    So, what's the big deal you might say, to put it another way?

    Why does it matter if some parts of Europe have more of some WHG/EHG ancestry than others?

    It isn't a big deal. It's only a big deal to people with warped minds full of unscientific and illogical nonsense. Don't ask me to explain it. I don't understand minds like that. I don't know how some people can look at data and just refuse to see it's relevance because it interferes with some racist rigamarole dreamed up by "writers" of the past to explain why they're superior to all other people on earth because they're fairer.

    Worse still, what kind of person would distort data to prove some unscientific point? I don't know what kind of mind can come up with something as stupid and even evil as that. Yet, we see it all around us. Paper after paper being retracted, especially in the social sciences, where "scientists" distorted the data to prove some theory dear to their hearts.

    It's really disillusioning.

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    Analyzing the evolution of DNA of a metropolitan city will surely show more turbulent results than that of the whole peninsula. The genetic mainframe of a people as a whole remains more intact due to numerical superiority and genetic drift. I am sure you will find similar results in cities such as Constantinople and Alexandria.

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    It reminded me of the case of the SSA in Andalusia in the Iberia papers. With samples from the Hospital of Huelva and how they had been resized for all of Andalusia and also at a time that was impossible due to socio-political, cultural, religious, e.t.c. In a historical moment in Andalusia and Spain, do not forget that slavery in Spain was abolished on February 13, 1880, so that the attempt to fit the results sought in a historical situation in a region probably showed nothing more than a great ignorance of the country and the region. For someone who is on the ground, native was definitely going to strain something like this:


    Phone call:
    Is your husband?
    No, no it is not.
    What time will he be at home?
    No, he won't come home
    How it won't come?
    No, he's a slave, he works 24 hours, he won't come home
    Ok excuse me


    A Christian, closed Catholic society, I imagine that still with the stress of Jewish and blackberry expulsions and with socio-religious complexes even perhaps more than racial ones.


    Too little shame is what you have to have to pretend to fit something like that. And I say it because I hate the lie, not for another reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed, you do have it right.

    So, what's the big deal you might say, to put it another way?

    Why does it matter if some parts of Europe have more of some WHG/EHG ancestry than others?

    It isn't a big deal. It's only a big deal to people with warped minds full of unscientific and illogical nonsense. Don't ask me to explain it. I don't understand minds like that. I don't know how some people can look at data and just refuse to see it's relevance because it interferes with some racist rigamarole dreamed up by "writers" of the past to explain why they're superior to all other people on earth because they're fairer.

    Worse still, what kind of person would distort data to prove some unscientific point? I don't know what kind of mind can come up with something as stupid and even evil as that. Yet, we see it all around us. Paper after paper being retracted, especially in the social sciences, where "scientists" distorted the data to prove some theory dear to their hearts.

    It's really disillusioning.
    It's all a load of bunk to make people who have "no life' feel secure in their dismal state. Genetically the component makeup of Europeans varies (as you note) between minute proportions of WHG, CHG, EHG, ENF, which if you think about it is really pretty incidental. Are we going to argue which component is more "valuable" to European culture/civilization or openly acknowledge differences as significant to the creation of the Euro ethos. I wonder if this whole northern=fairer notion may also be debunked since there is evidence that Anatolian farmers (7000 bce) may have introduced the "light" skinned allele into Europe.

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    Pockets of mid-strength Italian Genes far from Italy, some maybe Roman Related, I think.





    EDIT:

    Off Topic

    It’s all a matter of interpretation,
    the AncestryDNA map shows, that in the last 23andme update, they could have allocated to Cyprus and others: Italy, if they wanted to, and not the other way around.

    Back to Topic.
    Last edited by Salento; 15-11-19 at 08:32.

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    Very cool, once again showing mostly genetic continuity in a region. Aside from the neolithic and steppe events, most places in Europe were genetically stable.

    I saw some comments about Lombards being only U106 - I would like to point out that CL63 from Collegno and R110 from Crypta Balbi were both Lombards with I1-Z63. These Z63 had a common ancestor almost 2000 years before their time, so they were not closely related on the paternal line.

    There was also non-U106 in the Lombards in Szolad. Granted, the ruling family in Collegno was U106.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Very cool, once again showing mostly genetic continuity in a region. Aside from the neolithic and steppe events, most places in Europe were genetically stable.

    I saw some comments about Lombards being only U106 - I would like to point out that CL63 from Collegno and R110 from Crypta Balbi were both Lombards with I1-Z63. These Z63 had a common ancestor almost 2000 years before their time, so they were not closely related on the paternal line.

    There was also non-U106 in the Lombards in Szolad. Granted, the ruling family in Collegno was U106.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    If you check my posts, I1, you'll see I usually mention the relative lack of U-106 "and" I1. :)

    I've always held out the possibility that some of the invading tribes might have carried some U-152, which would change things a bit, but so far it hasn't shown up in them.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Pockets of mid-strength Italian Genes far from Italy, some maybe Roman Related, I think.





    EDIT:

    Off Topic

    It’s all a matter of interpretation,
    the AncestryDNA map shows, that in the last 23andme update, they could have allocated to Cyprus and others: Italy, if they wanted to, and not the other way around.

    Back to Topic.
    Probably more related to the same CHG/Iran_N+Anatolian migration(s) that have been trickling into mainland Italy since the Neolithic.

    Also:

    The medieval history of several populations often suffers from scarcity of contemporary records resulting in contradictory and sometimes biased interpretations by historians. This is the situation with the population of the island of Crete, which remained relatively undisturbed until the Middle Ages when multiple wars, invasions, and occupations by foreigners took place. Historians have considered the effects of the occupation of Crete by the Arabs (in the 9th and 10th centuries C.E.) and the Venetians (in the 13th to the 17th centuries C.E.) to the local population. To obtain insights on such effects from a genetic perspective, we studied representative samples from 17 Cretan districts using the Illumina 1 million or 2.5 million arrays and compared the Cretans to the populations of origin of the medieval conquerors and settlers. Highlights of our findings include (1) small genetic contributions from the Arab occupation to the extant Cretan population, (2) low genetic contribution of the Venetians to the extant Cretan population, and (3) evidence of a genetic relationship among the Cretans and Central, Northern, and Eastern Europeans, which could be explained by the settlement in the island of northern origin tribes during the medieval period. Our results show how the interaction between genetics and the historical record can help shed light on the historical record.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/ahg.12328



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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Probably more related to the same CHG/Iran_N+Anatolian migration(s) that have been trickling into mainland Italy since the Neolithic.

    Also:

    The medieval history of several populations often suffers from scarcity of contemporary records resulting in contradictory and sometimes biased interpretations by historians. This is the situation with the population of the island of Crete, which remained relatively undisturbed until the Middle Ages when multiple wars, invasions, and occupations by foreigners took place. Historians have considered the effects of the occupation of Crete by the Arabs (in the 9th and 10th centuries C.E.) and the Venetians (in the 13th to the 17th centuries C.E.) to the local population. To obtain insights on such effects from a genetic perspective, we studied representative samples from 17 Cretan districts using the Illumina 1 million or 2.5 million arrays and compared the Cretans to the populations of origin of the medieval conquerors and settlers. Highlights of our findings include (1) small genetic contributions from the Arab occupation to the extant Cretan population, (2) low genetic contribution of the Venetians to the extant Cretan population, and (3) evidence of a genetic relationship among the Cretans and Central, Northern, and Eastern Europeans, which could be explained by the settlement in the island of northern origin tribes during the medieval period. Our results show how the interaction between genetics and the historical record can help shed light on the historical record.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/ahg.12328

    .
    Thanks.

    There used to be a lot of talk on these forums as to how every invasion or military occupation or change of elites must have had a huge impact on the local gene pool.

    It ain't always so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    I think that the Basque language would come from WHG and the Etruscan language from NorthEastEuropeHG.



    I found this map. A rough way is a little what I want to say about the HG origin of the Basque and the Etruscan, I had no idea that the thing was like that, but look where it is good to stage my hypothesis. The Basques in a matter of language would have been the redoubt of the orange color on the map and the Etruscans the redoubt of the green color, as an idiomatic trunk because there would have been a multitude of derived dialects.
    Could you explain us what this map signifies? Colours and stars? And where you found it? To me it's a bit confuse.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Could you explain us what this map signifies? Colours and stars? And where you found it? To me it's a bit confuse.
    It's a map of the Bell Beaker phenomenon (not completely accurate in my humble opinion) from "Jan Turek 2016: The Beaker World and Otherness of the Early Civilizations., Musaica Archaeologica, Vol. 1, Issue 1, pp. 155-162"


    https://www.academia.edu/27129003/Ja..._1_pp._155-162

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Could you explain us what this map signifies? Colours and stars? And where you found it? To me it's a bit confuse.
    Just the link that Pax Augusta has put. I do not know if it is accurate or not, but it very well exemplified my hypothesis about the origin of the Basque and Etruscan language. The stars I thought were decorative, I did not take too much notice, neighboring territories influenced, it may be.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Wonders never cease. :)

    Sam has the guts and the integrity to point out to Polako that his models are incorrect and that the sample from the Latin Prenestini tribe does NOT in fact show Levant ancestry, and that's using Polako's own G25, which is suspect in and of itself. I highly doubt the Ardea 850 sample does either, not that it would matter to me.

    This should be a wake up call for everyone; you can get these "models" to show whatever you want or "think" they should show. The authors of this paper did the same thing, although hopefully not out of malice.

    He just won't let it go. Does his hatred of Jews and the Levant in general extend this far? He's like those white American southerners who used to see hidden "Negroid" ancestry in every other person they met. I guess it just sticks in his craw that Italians, people unlike him, have given so much to the world. The fact that I'm the only one who seemingly has the guts to call him out doesn't help, I'm sure, but his tirades against not only Southern Italians but Southern Europeans in general go back for years.

    Then there's his clique of Eastern Europeans. Maybe his old buddies from Stormfront. Did you know that the Latins were Corded Ware people from Poland? Yup, that's why they were so great. :) Then those dastardly people from Asia Minor and the Levant arrived and mucked everything up.

    Of course, the Latins were a bunch of shepherds in huts on those seven hills, and the Etruscans weren't much better until they started to come in contact with those Greeks and Anatolians and began to get civilized. I guess the idea should have been steal their culture, the fruits of their genius, but don't for God's sake marry them?

    Does anyone else see the logical disconnect there? If they created these wonders, it must be in part the product of their genes. So why wouldn't you want them?

    The same thing happened with the Jews in Germany and Eastern Europe. Is there anyone who doesn't acknowledge that Ashkenazi Jews are, on average, very intelligent and talented? So how did they wind up being untermenschen, and their hosts the ubermensch? Where did all of that come from? Fear they couldn't compete? Or was it atavistic, lizard brain hatred of anyone "different" as well. Re-read some of their old myths. They're highly enlightening.

    Why, also, do analogies have to be drawn to current problems with immigration in Europe, or the U.S. for that matter? My issue with mass immigration in our own time is that it is predominantly people with no education, skills or training who will burden industrialized and post industrialized societies already dealing with their own problems of inequality. You can't take in the whole world of needy people. Our own societies would collapse.

    How could that possibly compare with what was happening in Europe during the classical age? These people brought trade, commerce, and learning. Their arrival made the achievements of Rome possible, a Rome which formed western and southern Europe.

    There is no comparison.

    All Empires eventually fade and die, and there were intrinsic problems within the Roman Empire. However, it wasn't immigration from the East which brought it to the breaking point; it was the constant strain of barbarians at its border fleeing from climate change, hunger, and the Huns. The Eastern Empire also faded eventually, but it didn't collapse; order, trade, learning, didn't disappear there, millions didn't die.

    I just cannot believe the ignorance of ancient history which is so often on display, or, in some cases, the distortion of it.
    Last edited by Angela; 16-11-19 at 18:32.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There is nothing wrong about having levant genes.....
    if davidski or other white nationalist think it is bad it there problem not mine and yours....
    by the way
    the ancient iberian paper
    noticed a levant bronze age ancestery 6-7%
    in 200-400 Ad in south east iberia ....
    it is very cool .....
    Last edited by kingjohn; 17-11-19 at 16:23.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The point is that when some try to imitate those who have intervened in the destiny of humanity everything has ended up being much more sordid and sad. They have to learn from the greats and admire them, imitating them is impossible because that is why it has to be born. Ah! and Europe is not a monopoly of any nationality, race or whatever you want to call exclusivity, Europe is of all the countries that compose it and all its stories and inclusions are Europe, that no Elf is forgotten.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Sickeliot (what an apt name) is no better. All that Levantist posturing is fake; he was known as a notorious anti-Semite at his university.

    No modeling by Polako and his clique or Sikeliot and his socks is worthy of the slightest consideration.


    Bravo, Carlos.

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