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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Just the link that Pax Augusta has put. I do not know if it is accurate or not, but it very well exemplified my hypothesis about the origin of the Basque and Etruscan language. The stars I thought were decorative, I did not take too much notice, neighboring territories influenced, it may be.
    OK, thanks to you and Pax Augusta. But your proper hypothesis about Etruscan and Basque languages doesn't convince me at all. We need more solid basis. And BB phenomenon is not entirely ethnic, we cannot be sure it did not include diverse pops sources.

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    There is incredibly high percentage of J (J1+J2) haplogroups in Imperial Romans, 13 out of 24 samples belong to haplogroups J1 or J2. However haplogroup J1 distribution percentage seems to fade in later periods.

    Interestingly there is not a single I2a-L621, which is today one of main Balkan Y lineages. Strongly associated with a Early Medieval Slavic migrations towards Balkans.
    Also haplogroup R1a (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1019/) is represented only in one Imperial Roman sample in subclade that seems to be none-existent in modern Balkans but rather found in Caucasus/Anatolia.
    There is also absence in haplogroups N and Q, which are at least in most cases, also connect with Early Medieval migrations towards Balkans.

    There is lower percentage of haplogroup E-v13 then expected, only one Imperial Roman and one Renaissance sample is probably not what many people where expecting (me included).

    Haplogroups G2a and R1b were found in expected percentage. There was even found Neolithic R1b, but in subclade typical for Sub-Saharan Africa and Middle East, but also in Yfull as can be seen found in Sardinia so probably it belong to this Sardinian branch.
    Last edited by Dema; 17-11-19 at 00:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    There is incredibly high percentage of J (J1+J2) haplogroups in Imperial Romans, 13 out of 24 samples belong to haplogroups J1 or J2. However haplogroup J1 distribution percentage seems to fade in later periods.

    Interestingly there is not a single I2a-L621, which is today one of main Balkan Y lineages. Strongly associated with a Early Medieval Slavic migrations towards Balkans.
    Also haplogroup R1a (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1019/) is represented only in one Imperial Roman sample in subclade that seems to be none-existent in modern Balkans but rather found in Caucasus/Anatolia.
    There is also absence in haplogroups N and Q, which are at least in most cases, also connect with Early Medieval migrations towards Balkans.

    There is lower percentage of haplogroup E-v13 then expected, only one Imperial Roman and one Renaissance sample is probably not what many people where expecting (me included).

    Haplogroups G2a and R1b were found in expected percentage. There was even found Neolithic R1b, but in subclade typical for Sub-Saharan Africa and Middle East, but also in Yfull as can be seen found in Sardinia so probably it belong to this Sardinian branch.
    The current speculation is that R1b V88 went from either Sardinia/Sicily or Spain to North Africa and then into the heart of Africa.

    Fwiw, I've already speculated as to why J1 lineages disappeared.

    As to the J2, we really need to track each one of them back, because some J2 was in Neolithic Anatolia, and some was in Europe very early indeed, while others might have come late.

    One size doesn't fit all with J2.


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    Also was suprising at least to me
    was the( 2 E-v12 samples) and not to found
    The more middle eastern E types E-v22 and E-m123 in remains.
    but thats what is so cool in ancient dna 😉

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As to the J2, we really need to track each one of them back, because some J2 was in Neolithic Anatolia, and some was in Europe very early indeed, while others might have come late.

    One size doesn't fit all with J2.

    Majority J2a-M410 in various subclades, and some J2b-L283 and some J2b-M205.

    However, nevertheless, according to this study Imperial Romans had over 50 % of J haplogroups. Of course various subclades and various origins but still..



    J2a 300-700 CE PF5008>L581* Late Antiquity
    J2a 400-600 CE L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319 Late Antiquity
    J2a 5345-5221 BCE J-S11842* Y15913- Z6271- M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842* Neolithic
    J2a1a 100-300 CE R68 J-Y13534* Y23159- Y14696- L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534 Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 55-211 CE R-Z30677 M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677 Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 27 BCE-300 CE J-Z6264* Z28602- M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264* Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 1600-1700 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394 Renaissance
    J2a1a 0-200 CE J-PH672 Y150774- M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672* Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 1-400 CE J-Z6271 L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271 Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 0-200 CE J-Y47649 L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649* Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 300-500 CE J-Z40772 FGC58752- L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772* Late Antiquity
    J2a1a 1480-1490 CE L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147 Renaissance
    J2a1a 1600-1700 CE J-Z435 L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5* Renaissance
    J2b1 771-947 CE J-PF7321 Y45447- YP51- FT45018- Y134194- Y22037- M205>PF7321* Medieval
    J2b1 135-244 CE J-Y134194 M205>PF7321>Y134194 Imperial Rome
    J2b2a 700-600 BCE J-CTS6190 M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190 Etruscan_IA
    J2b2a 0-200 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631 Imperial Rome
    J2b2a 1280-1430 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094* Medieval

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Majority J2a-M410 in various subclades, and some J2b-L283 and some J2b-M205.

    However, nevertheless, according to this study Imperial Romans had over 50 % of J haplogroups. Of course various subclades and various origins but still..



    J2a 300-700 CE PF5008>L581* Late Antiquity
    J2a 400-600 CE L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319 Late Antiquity
    J2a 5345-5221 BCE J-S11842* Y15913- Z6271- M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842* Neolithic
    J2a1a 100-300 CE R68 J-Y13534* Y23159- Y14696- L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534 Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 55-211 CE R-Z30677 M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677 Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 27 BCE-300 CE J-Z6264* Z28602- M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264* Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 1600-1700 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394 Renaissance
    J2a1a 0-200 CE J-PH672 Y150774- M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672* Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 1-400 CE J-Z6271 L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271 Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 0-200 CE J-Y47649 L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649* Imperial Rome
    J2a1a 300-500 CE J-Z40772 FGC58752- L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772* Late Antiquity
    J2a1a 1480-1490 CE L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147 Renaissance
    J2a1a 1600-1700 CE J-Z435 L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5* Renaissance
    J2b1 771-947 CE J-PF7321 Y45447- YP51- FT45018- Y134194- Y22037- M205>PF7321* Medieval
    J2b1 135-244 CE J-Y134194 M205>PF7321>Y134194 Imperial Rome
    J2b2a 700-600 BCE J-CTS6190 M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190 Etruscan_IA
    J2b2a 0-200 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631 Imperial Rome
    J2b2a 1280-1430 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094* Medieval
    And your point is?



    Something wrong with yDna J2, whether J2b or J2a?

    If one could make accurate predictions from maps of modern frequencies it looks to me like either an arrival through Greece and the area around Albania or directly from places like Crete, Cyprus, or Asia Minor. They might have gone directly to Rome or after some hundreds of years in Southern Italy.

    My question was whether you have any pertinent information of where those subclades each are most frequent and when they might have arrived, i.e. the dating. For example, how about Crete? The Peloponnesus? Coastal Anatolia?

    That's what we're trying to do, yes? Figure out how all of the migrations which make up Europeans occurred?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    And your point is? Something wrong with yDna J2, whether J2b or J2a?
    Absolutely not, as you see i am J haplogroup myself, when i say Imperial Romans had over 50 % of J haplogroup, its a fact that i am proud on : )


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If one could make accurate predictions from maps of modern frequencies it looks to me like either an arrival through Greece and the area around Albania or directly from places like Crete, Cyprus, or Asia Minor.

    My question was whether you have any pertinent information of where those subclades each are most frequent and when they might have arrived, i.e. the dating.

    That's what we're trying to do, yes? Figure out how all of the migrations which make up Europeans occurred?

    Each of these can be checked in Yfull where modern samples are found today and TMRCA and upward genetic tree can be seen.
    Most of these have already Yfull link included. As it can be seen J2a-M410 is in various branches and its a mess to try to make a sense out of all of them even tho its not that hard if anyone has free time.
    While J2b-M205 and J2b-L283 have lower TMRCA therefore we can look at them as branches that expanded from same place. J2b-L283 most likely picked up by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans somewhere in North Caucasus and spread throughout Europe while J2-M205 had Bronze Age Fertile Crescent expansion therefore likely arrived thru Phoenicians or later Roman Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Absolutely not, as you see i am J haplogroup myself, when i say Imperial Romans had over 50 % of J haplogroup, its a fact that i am proud on : )





    Each of these can be checked in Yfull where modern samples are found today and TMRCA and upward genetic tree can be seen.
    Most of these have already Yfull link included. As it can be seen J2a-M410 is in various branches and its a mess to try to make a sense out of all of them even tho its not that hard if anyone has free time.
    While J2b-M205 and J2b-L283 have lower TMRCA therefore we can look at them as one branch from same origin. J2b-L283 most likely picked up by Indo-Europeans and spread throughout Europe while J2-M205 had Bronze Age Fertile Crescent expansion therefore likely arrived thru Phoenicians or later Roman Empire.
    My husband is G2a2. I wish he'd get it further refined, but he's not interested enough. He just wants the highlights!:)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My husband is G2a2. I wish he'd get it further refined, but he's not interested enough. He just wants the highlights!:)

    Here is situation within G2a:


    G2a2a 5607-5485 BCE G-Z42565 PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565 Neolithic
    G2a2a 1070-1150 CE G-Z6228 PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval
    G2a2a 1280-1430 CE G-Z6228 PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval
    G2a2b 3500-900 BCE G-PF3378 PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378 Chalcolithic/BA
    G2a2b 2950-2880 BCE pre-G-F807 PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807 Chalcolithic
    G2a2b 0-200 CE G-L14* Z45043- FGC5185- M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14* Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 232-333 CE G-S9591 M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591 Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 100-300 CE G-P303 P303* Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 300-700 CE G-L140 PF3346- (Z31254- Z31256- Z31258-) P303>L140* Late Antiquity
    G2a2b 136-326 CE G-Z6434* (Z3571- FGC295- Z6993- Z6994- Z6996-) CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434 Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 1-400 CE pre-G-Z6764 U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764 Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 400-600 CE G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765- L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Late Antiquity
    G2a2b 1280-1430 CE G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765- L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Medieval
    G2a2b 1480-1490 CE G-S18765 L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765 Renaissance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Here is situation within G2a:


    G2a2a 5607-5485 BCE G-Z42565 PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565 Neolithic
    G2a2a 1070-1150 CE G-Z6228 PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval
    G2a2a 1280-1430 CE G-Z6228 PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval
    G2a2b 3500-900 BCE G-PF3378 PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378 Chalcolithic/BA
    G2a2b 2950-2880 BCE pre-G-F807 PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807 Chalcolithic
    G2a2b 0-200 CE G-L14* Z45043- FGC5185- M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14* Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 232-333 CE G-S9591 M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591 Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 100-300 CE G-P303 P303* Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 300-700 CE G-L140 PF3346- (Z31254- Z31256- Z31258-) P303>L140* Late Antiquity
    G2a2b 136-326 CE G-Z6434* (Z3571- FGC295- Z6993- Z6994- Z6996-) CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434 Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 1-400 CE pre-G-Z6764 U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764 Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 400-600 CE G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765- L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Late Antiquity
    G2a2b 1280-1430 CE G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765- L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Medieval
    G2a2b 1480-1490 CE G-S18765 L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765 Renaissance
    Thanks, Dema.

    Now, if I could just get him to test it with FTDNA or something. :)

    He likes the idea it could be an original Neolithic lineage in Italy, I think. Actually, the first thing he asked was if anybody famous carried it. I told him Stalin was G2a, but not G2a2. He wouldn't have been happy to share Stalin's clade, although I'm sure there are a lot of wonderful men who carry that particular lineage.

    As you can tell, I'm the only one in my family who has any real interest in population genetics.

    It took forever to find out my Dad carried U-152.

    I'm afraid I don't have very much interest in my own U2e mtDna. It's so old and so spread all over the world that it's hard to identify with it. Plus, it accounts for so little of my total genetic make-up.

    Well, I care about the health implications bound up with mtDna, but not from an "identification" standpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks, Dema.

    Now, if I could just get him to test it with FTDNA or something. :)

    He likes the idea it could be an original Neolithic lineage in Italy, I think. Actually, the first thing he asked was if anybody famous carried it. I told him Stalin was G2a, but not G2a2. He wouldn't have been happy to share Stalin's clade, although I'm sure there are a lot of wonderful men who carry that particular lineage.

    As you can tell, I'm the only one in my family who has any real interest in population genetics.

    It took forever to find out my Dad carried U-152.

    I'm afraid I don't have very much interest in my own U2e mtDna. It's so old and so spread all over the world that it's hard to identify with it. Plus, it accounts for so little of my total genetic make-up.

    Well, I care about the health implications bound up with mtDna, but not from an "identification" standpoint.
    Hehe i guess he is right handed towards politics if he didnt like Stalin : )
    Who knows he probably has some of these G2a samples close. Best would be BigY-700.

    Except BigY test + Yfull upload, best gift woman can give a man is baby boy that will carry on Y-DNA and tradition : )

    I am joking a bit, daughters are excellent also : )

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    Also i forgot haplogroup I1 was pretty much absent in ancient Romans, but appeared later:

    I1 400-600 CE I-Y7234 DF29>Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234 Late Antiquity
    I1 1411-1447CE I-Y4115 P109>FGC16695>Y3662>S14887>Y4115* Medieval

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    Elementary question. Isn't Steppe ancestry itself roughly 50% CHG/Iran Neo, with the balance Ancient North Eurasian and EHG? And isn't ANE found in Native Americans?

    My impression is that the only thing that distinguishes Southern Italians and Greeks from other Europeans is that they--or to speak in the first-person, "we"--carry more CHG and only a small fraction of EHG and ANE. And perhaps "we" also have some small percentage of North African admixture. But for the most part, all Europeans, including Southern Italians, are comprised of Anatolian Neolithic, CHG/Iranian Neolithic, and WHG.

    Do I at least have the fundamentals correct?

    And in reference to Angela's comments elsewhere in this thread, it would be nice if 23andme and other testing companies used the same nomenclature as academic scientists to describe various genetic components. So rather than say that Calabrians have lots of Middle Eastern ancestry (which is very vague and confusing), they should use terms like Anatolian Neolithic and CHG/Iranian Neolithic.
    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    It's all a load of bunk to make people who have "no life' feel secure in their dismal state. Genetically the component makeup of Europeans varies (as you note) between minute proportions of WHG, CHG, EHG, ENF, which if you think about it is really pretty incidental. Are we going to argue which component is more "valuable" to European culture/civilization or openly acknowledge differences as significant to the creation of the Euro ethos. I wonder if this whole northern=fairer notion may also be debunked since there is evidence that Anatolian farmers (7000 bce) may have introduced the "light" skinned allele into Europe.
    correct, now we only need to take the focus away from europe. you see, the hate southern europe gets from some nordicist racists from all over europe, is based on the believe in possible near eastern, "non-european" ancestry in the south. so the aversion is actually against near east and everything that could be tied to modern near eastern populations. only discussing european genetics and thier differences here feels as if the nazis ring at the door to deport "untermenschen" but you explain there are none in your house then close the door and silently let the nazis continue their thing.

    all westeurasian populations have only very small differences. an exception are maybe some north africans with significiant sub saharan african. but even there, those who are not having significant admixture are extremely similar. and that is concidering, that all human populations are already very similar.
    it's ridiculous how many people still can't understand this eventhough they have all the data to know it better. there is so much denial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Hehe i guess he is right handed towards politics if he didnt like Stalin : )
    Who knows he probably has some of these G2a samples close. Best would be BigY-700.

    Except BigY test + Yfull upload, best gift woman can give a man is baby boy that will carry on Y-DNA and tradition : )

    I am joking a bit, daughters are excellent also : )
    He's conservative by American standards, which means very conservative indeed, but it's the fact Stalin was a homicidal butcher who killed millions of people that created the aversion. I've rarely met anyone as compassionate toward other people. Certain behaviors are beyond his comprehension.

    Cultures differ. I can't imagine my husband ever caring about passing on his "y line". He wasn't one of those men who was dying to have children at all, but if he had a preference, it was for girls. My father was the same way. There's a saying: a son's a son till he takes a wife, a daughter's a daughter till the end of her life. I think that's very often true. He does care about passing on his family's culture to a degree, but not as much as I do. When push comes to shove he's an American. I'm hanging out somewhere in the Atlantic. Anyway, there's a wide variety of yDna in Italy as you yourself have pointed out.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    So here is all samples so far, also thanks to whoever put them together in excel file.


    SAMPLE ID Y-HAPLOGROUP DATE TERMINAL Y-SNP PERIOD/CULTURE LOCATION mtDNA
    R11 I2a2 10100-9816 BCE M436 Mesolithic Grotta Continenza U5b1
    R7 I2a2a 8821-8642 BCE pre-M223 Mesolithic Grotta Continenza U5b1
    R15 I2a2a 7284-7065 BCE pre-M223 Mesolithic Grotta Continenza U5b3
    R26 I2a2a 3500-900 BCE M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240 Chalcolithic/BA Su Crocefissu H1j9
    R27 I2a2a 3500-900 BCE M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240 Chalcolithic/BA Su Crocefissu H1e1a
    R32 I2a2a 300-700 CE M223>CTS616 Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto H2a1
    R104 I2a1a 400-600 CE L158>Y3992>Z2049>L160>PF4088 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi U5b3a1a
    R63 I2a1b 970-1010 CE M423>Y3104>L161.1>S2639>L1498>Y3749 Medieval Villa Magna K1a2a
    R110 I1 400-600 CE DF29>Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi H1e
    R1286 I1 1411-1447 CE P109>FGC16695>Y3662>S14887>Y4115* Medieval Cancelleria H1g1
    R9 G2a2a 5607-5485 BCE PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565 Neolithic Grotta Continenza K1a4a1
    R64 G2a2a 1070-1150 CE PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval Villa Magna HV0a
    R52 G2a2a 1280-1430 CE PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval Villa Magna T1a1
    R29 G2a2b 3500-900 BCE PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378 Chalcolithic/BA Su Crocefissu J2b1a
    R4 G2a2b 2950-2880 BCE PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807 Chalcolithic Grotta Continenza K1a+195
    R131 G2a2b 0-200 CE M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14* Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria T1a12
    R47 G2a2b 232-333 CE M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591 Imperial Rome Centocelle J1c1c
    R70 G2a2b 100-300 CE P303* Imperial Rome Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada T1a
    R30 G2a2b 300-700 CE P303>L140* Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto L4a2
    R132 G2a2b 136-326 CE CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434 Imperial Rome Marcellino & Pietro R0a2j
    R1545 G2a2b 1-400 CE U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764 Imperial Rome Mazzano Romano H8c
    R108 G2a2b 400-600 CE L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi T2b+150
    R55 G2a2b 1280-1430 CE L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Medieval Villa Magna J2b1a
    R1224 G2a2b 1480-1490 CE L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765 Renaissance Cancelleria T2b4f
    R6 R1b 5242-5177 BCE V2219>V88>Y7777>G72+C51:G68+F50+C51:G68+M52f* Neolithic Grotta Continenza K1a1
    R1016 R1b 900-700 BCE Z2103 Latin_IA Castel di Decima H1aj1a
    R123 R1b 77-213 CE Z2103 Imperial Rome Casale del dolce T2a1b
    R1021 R1b 700-600 BCE L51>Z2118* Latin_IA Boville Ernica U4a1a
    R111 R1b 0-200 CE L51>Z2118>Z2116* Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria H
    R61 R1b 1280-1430 CE L51>Z2118 Medieval Villa Magna HV
    R33 R1b 300-700 CE U152>L2>DF110 Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto K1a
    R1220 R1b 1480-1490 CE DF27>Y30754>Y85515 Renaissance Cancelleria T2f1a1
    R851 R1b 800-500 BCE U152>L2>DF90>F14641>F29470 Latin_IA Ardea H2a
    R437 R1b 400-200 BCE U152>L2>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365 Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe) Palestrina Selciata H10
    R435 R1b 600-200 BCE U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016 Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe) Palestrina Colombella H11a
    R36 R1b 400-600 CE U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016 Late Antiquity Celio T1a1
    R1287 R1b 1411-1447 CE U152 Medieval Cancelleria T2b
    R31 R1b 332-419 CE P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193* Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto K1c1
    R58 R1b 700-1500 CE U106>S263>S264>S497>Y24836>Y28640* Medieval Villa Magna H1c3
    R1548 R1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122>F1345>F2935>F1019 Imperial Rome Monterotondo H2a
    R66 R2a 100-300 CE Y3399>Y3370 Imperial Rome Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada T2
    R17 J 5324-5223 BCE PF5008>L581>Z37823>PF5000>pre-Y29673 Neolithic Ripabianca di Monterado U8b1b
    R81 J 0-200 CE M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842>Y15913 Imperial Rome Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria K1b1c
    R105 J1 400-600 CE Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>FGC12834> PF4876>L829 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi T1a
    R1547 J1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>Y2919>Y60 94 Imperial Rome Monterotondo K1a7
    R1549 J1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z2331>Y15152>ZS4336 (xZS4312,Y154827) Imperial Rome Monterotondo U5b2b3
    R128 J1a 0-400 CE Z1828>Z1842>Y4423 (xZS3042,BY100,CTS1460a,Y83506) Imperial Rome Casale del dolce HV+16311
    R130 J1a 300-500 CE P58>Y4067>L817>pre-L818 Late Antiquity Marcellino & Pietro H107
    R835 J1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Y3081 Imperial Rome Civitanova Marche H2a5
    R34 J2a 300-700 CE PF5008>L581* Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto H+195+146
    R117 J2a 400-600 CE L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319 Late Antiquity San Ercolano T2b
    R19 J2a 5345-5221 BCE M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842* Neolithic Ripabianca di Monterado U5b3a1
    R68 J2a1a 100-300 CE L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534 Imperial Rome Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada U7a4a1a
    R1551 J2a1a 55-211 CE M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677 Imperial Rome Monterotondo H
    R1550 J2a1a 27 BCE-300 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264* Imperial Rome Monterotondo T2c1c
    R969 J2a1a 1600-1700 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394 Renaissance Tivoli Palazzo Cianti U5b
    R115 J2a1a 0-200 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672* Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria U4
    R44 J2a1a 1-400 CE L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271 Imperial Rome Isola Sacra T2
    R76 J2a1a 0-200 CE L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649* Imperial Rome Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria T2c1a
    R136 J2a1a 300-500 CE L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772* Late Antiquity Marcellino & Pietro T2d2
    R1221 J2a1a 1480-1490 CE L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147 Renaissance Cancelleria H1e2
    R970 J2a1a 1600-1700 CE L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5* Renaissance Tivoli Palazzo Cianti J1b3
    R1283 J2b1 771-947 CE M205>PF7321* Medieval Cancelleria H12
    R50 J2b1 135-244 CE M205>PF7321>Y134194 Imperial Rome Centocelle H5
    R474 J2b2a 700-600 BCE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190 Etruscan_IA Civitavecchia H
    R116 J2b2a 0-200 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631 Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria U3a2
    R54 J2b2a 1280-1430 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094* Medieval Villa Magna H4a1
    R113 E1b1b 0-200 CE V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y28 62>BY8432>pre-BY8536 Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria H26a1
    R59 E1b1b 820-990 CE V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y21 919>Y21918* Medieval Villa Magna N1b1a
    R107 E1b1b 400-600 CE V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241>Z 38770* Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi T2h
    R1219 E1b1b 1417-1463 CE V13>Z1057>CTS1273 Renaissance Cancelleria H11a
    R53 E1b1b 1280-1430 CE L19>PF2431>Z21068>PF2438>Y10541>Y10561>pre-FGC19010 Medieval Villa Magna U2e1c1
    R850 T1a1a 800-500 BCE L162>L208* Latin_IA Ardea T2c1f
    R1543 T1a1a 1-400 CE L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709>Y9109>Y18004 * Imperial Rome Mazzano Romano H1e
    R120 T1a2b 400-600 CE L131>Y6033>pre-FGC23008 Late Antiquity San Ercolano I1c
    R1014 H 3500-2500 BCE P96* Chalcolithic (Rinaldone Gaudo) Monte San Biagio N1a1a1a3
    R118 H2 400-600 CE P96>Y21618>Y19962>Y20838>Y20839>Y21598 Late Antiquity San Ercolano H1e1a
    R1285 C1a2 974-1035 CE V20>V86>V182>V222 Medieval Cancelleria T2c1a

  16. #391
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    He's conservative by American standards, which means very conservative indeed, but it's the fact Stalin was a homicidal butcher who killed millions of people that created the aversion. I've rarely met anyone as compassionate toward other people. Certain behaviors are beyond his comprehension.

    Cultures differ. I can't imagine my husband ever caring about passing on his "y line". He wasn't one of those men who was dying to have children at all, but if he had a preference, it was for girls. My father was the same way. There's a saying: a son's a son till he takes a wife, a daughter's a daughter till the end of her life. I think that's very often true. He does care about passing on his family's culture to a degree, but not as much as I do. When push comes to shove he's an American. I'm hanging out somewhere in the Atlantic. Anyway, there's a wide variety of yDna in Italy as you yourself have pointed out.
    I'm too mixed to even have a cultural identity, i see myself as a living breathing thing who contributes to this world with my tech saviness who will eventually die and be eaten by worms, just like my ancestors did
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Do anybody has clues about Steppe ancestry in Etruscans and Italics? I've read here and there that some samples choose Yamnaya ancestry before BB ancestry, while others look like BB's. Does that mean that in overall, BB ancestry is the sole and unique " Steppe " ancestry in Western Europe? In the mean that, if we accept the hypothesis that IE languages came from the Steppe, BB's were probably the sole and unique speakers of it until it collapsed in different dialects?

    This would mean that, anybody IE or Not at some point could have had BB ancestry, but that all IE speakers had it too. Making it very difficult to say who spoked what ( a part from already known hypothesis ) even with Steppe ancestry. So we could say at some point, virtually all Western Europe had BB ancestry, but in this whole, not all of them were IE speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I'm too mixed to even have a cultural identity, i see myself as a living breathing thing who contributes to this world with my tech saviness who will eventually die and be eaten by worms, just like my ancestors did
    You're an American; more specifically a mix of the second wave of immigrants that came over in the 20 century. I think that would be a viable cultural identity. You were born in the American Century (post-WWII 20th century) a time when the United States reached the zenith of power and prestige; truly becoming a new Roman empire.

    But also, there's quite a lot of Irish/Italians; almost every Italian-American I know is either marrying an Irish person, or is partly Irish. They can pretty much be an ethnicity on to themselves, imo

    Jewish people I know tend to stay with each other. But they will also consort and sometimes marry other groups primarily from the second wave of working-class immigrants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    So here is all samples so far, also thanks to whoever put them together in excel file.


    SAMPLE ID Y-HAPLOGROUP DATE TERMINAL Y-SNP PERIOD/CULTURE LOCATION mtDNA
    R11 I2a2 10100-9816 BCE M436 Mesolithic Grotta Continenza U5b1
    R7 I2a2a 8821-8642 BCE pre-M223 Mesolithic Grotta Continenza U5b1
    R15 I2a2a 7284-7065 BCE pre-M223 Mesolithic Grotta Continenza U5b3
    R26 I2a2a 3500-900 BCE M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240 Chalcolithic/BA Su Crocefissu H1j9
    R27 I2a2a 3500-900 BCE M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240 Chalcolithic/BA Su Crocefissu H1e1a
    R32 I2a2a 300-700 CE M223>CTS616 Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto H2a1
    R104 I2a1a 400-600 CE L158>Y3992>Z2049>L160>PF4088 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi U5b3a1a
    R63 I2a1b 970-1010 CE M423>Y3104>L161.1>S2639>L1498>Y3749 Medieval Villa Magna K1a2a
    R110 I1 400-600 CE DF29>Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi H1e
    R1286 I1 1411-1447 CE P109>FGC16695>Y3662>S14887>Y4115* Medieval Cancelleria H1g1
    R9 G2a2a 5607-5485 BCE PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565 Neolithic Grotta Continenza K1a4a1
    R64 G2a2a 1070-1150 CE PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval Villa Magna HV0a
    R52 G2a2a 1280-1430 CE PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval Villa Magna T1a1
    R29 G2a2b 3500-900 BCE PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378 Chalcolithic/BA Su Crocefissu J2b1a
    R4 G2a2b 2950-2880 BCE PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807 Chalcolithic Grotta Continenza K1a+195
    R131 G2a2b 0-200 CE M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14* Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria T1a12
    R47 G2a2b 232-333 CE M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591 Imperial Rome Centocelle J1c1c
    R70 G2a2b 100-300 CE P303* Imperial Rome Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada T1a
    R30 G2a2b 300-700 CE P303>L140* Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto L4a2
    R132 G2a2b 136-326 CE CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434 Imperial Rome Marcellino & Pietro R0a2j
    R1545 G2a2b 1-400 CE U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764 Imperial Rome Mazzano Romano H8c
    R108 G2a2b 400-600 CE L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi T2b+150
    R55 G2a2b 1280-1430 CE L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Medieval Villa Magna J2b1a
    R1224 G2a2b 1480-1490 CE L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765 Renaissance Cancelleria T2b4f
    R6 R1b 5242-5177 BCE V2219>V88>Y7777>G72+C51:G68+F50+C51:G68+M52f* Neolithic Grotta Continenza K1a1
    R1016 R1b 900-700 BCE Z2103 Latin_IA Castel di Decima H1aj1a
    R123 R1b 77-213 CE Z2103 Imperial Rome Casale del dolce T2a1b
    R1021 R1b 700-600 BCE L51>Z2118* Latin_IA Boville Ernica U4a1a
    R111 R1b 0-200 CE L51>Z2118>Z2116* Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria H
    R61 R1b 1280-1430 CE L51>Z2118 Medieval Villa Magna HV
    R33 R1b 300-700 CE U152>L2>DF110 Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto K1a
    R1220 R1b 1480-1490 CE DF27>Y30754>Y85515 Renaissance Cancelleria T2f1a1
    R851 R1b 800-500 BCE U152>L2>DF90>F14641>F29470 Latin_IA Ardea H2a
    R437 R1b 400-200 BCE U152>L2>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365 Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe) Palestrina Selciata H10
    R435 R1b 600-200 BCE U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016 Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe) Palestrina Colombella H11a
    R36 R1b 400-600 CE U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016 Late Antiquity Celio T1a1
    R1287 R1b 1411-1447 CE U152 Medieval Cancelleria T2b
    R31 R1b 332-419 CE P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193* Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto K1c1
    R58 R1b 700-1500 CE U106>S263>S264>S497>Y24836>Y28640* Medieval Villa Magna H1c3
    R1548 R1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122>F1345>F2935>F1019 Imperial Rome Monterotondo H2a
    R66 R2a 100-300 CE Y3399>Y3370 Imperial Rome Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada T2
    R17 J 5324-5223 BCE PF5008>L581>Z37823>PF5000>pre-Y29673 Neolithic Ripabianca di Monterado U8b1b
    R81 J 0-200 CE M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842>Y15913 Imperial Rome Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria K1b1c
    R105 J1 400-600 CE Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>FGC12834> PF4876>L829 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi T1a
    R1547 J1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>Y2919>Y60 94 Imperial Rome Monterotondo K1a7
    R1549 J1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z2331>Y15152>ZS4336 (xZS4312,Y154827) Imperial Rome Monterotondo U5b2b3
    R128 J1a 0-400 CE Z1828>Z1842>Y4423 (xZS3042,BY100,CTS1460a,Y83506) Imperial Rome Casale del dolce HV+16311
    R130 J1a 300-500 CE P58>Y4067>L817>pre-L818 Late Antiquity Marcellino & Pietro H107
    R835 J1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Y3081 Imperial Rome Civitanova Marche H2a5
    R34 J2a 300-700 CE PF5008>L581* Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto H+195+146
    R117 J2a 400-600 CE L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319 Late Antiquity San Ercolano T2b
    R19 J2a 5345-5221 BCE M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842* Neolithic Ripabianca di Monterado U5b3a1
    R68 J2a1a 100-300 CE L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534 Imperial Rome Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada U7a4a1a
    R1551 J2a1a 55-211 CE M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677 Imperial Rome Monterotondo H
    R1550 J2a1a 27 BCE-300 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264* Imperial Rome Monterotondo T2c1c
    R969 J2a1a 1600-1700 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394 Renaissance Tivoli Palazzo Cianti U5b
    R115 J2a1a 0-200 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672* Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria U4
    R44 J2a1a 1-400 CE L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271 Imperial Rome Isola Sacra T2
    R76 J2a1a 0-200 CE L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649* Imperial Rome Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria T2c1a
    R136 J2a1a 300-500 CE L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772* Late Antiquity Marcellino & Pietro T2d2
    R1221 J2a1a 1480-1490 CE L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147 Renaissance Cancelleria H1e2
    R970 J2a1a 1600-1700 CE L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5* Renaissance Tivoli Palazzo Cianti J1b3
    R1283 J2b1 771-947 CE M205>PF7321* Medieval Cancelleria H12
    R50 J2b1 135-244 CE M205>PF7321>Y134194 Imperial Rome Centocelle H5
    R474 J2b2a 700-600 BCE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190 Etruscan_IA Civitavecchia H
    R116 J2b2a 0-200 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631 Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria U3a2
    R54 J2b2a 1280-1430 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094* Medieval Villa Magna H4a1
    R113 E1b1b 0-200 CE V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y28 62>BY8432>pre-BY8536 Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria H26a1
    R59 E1b1b 820-990 CE V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y21 919>Y21918* Medieval Villa Magna N1b1a
    R107 E1b1b 400-600 CE V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241>Z 38770* Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi T2h
    R1219 E1b1b 1417-1463 CE V13>Z1057>CTS1273 Renaissance Cancelleria H11a
    R53 E1b1b 1280-1430 CE L19>PF2431>Z21068>PF2438>Y10541>Y10561>pre-FGC19010 Medieval Villa Magna U2e1c1
    R850 T1a1a 800-500 BCE L162>L208* Latin_IA Ardea T2c1f
    R1543 T1a1a 1-400 CE L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709>Y9109>Y18004 * Imperial Rome Mazzano Romano H1e
    R120 T1a2b 400-600 CE L131>Y6033>pre-FGC23008 Late Antiquity San Ercolano I1c
    R1014 H 3500-2500 BCE P96* Chalcolithic (Rinaldone Gaudo) Monte San Biagio N1a1a1a3
    R118 H2 400-600 CE P96>Y21618>Y19962>Y20838>Y20839>Y21598 Late Antiquity San Ercolano H1e1a
    R1285 C1a2 974-1035 CE V20>V86>V182>V222 Medieval Cancelleria T2c1a

    Thanks, i always found interesting that, G2a2a and G2a2b were found together in European Neolithic and later phases. While G2a1 is almost solely in the Caucasus Mountains as we know. I wonder when and where G2a2 and G2a1 splited and how they started to spread. It's interesting that for now, no Mesolithic samples from Anatolia or the Caucasus have shown neither of them.

  20. #395
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    So here is all samples so far, also thanks to whoever put them together in excel file.


    SAMPLE ID Y-HAPLOGROUP DATE TERMINAL Y-SNP PERIOD/CULTURE LOCATION mtDNA
    R11 I2a2 10100-9816 BCE M436 Mesolithic Grotta Continenza U5b1
    R7 I2a2a 8821-8642 BCE pre-M223 Mesolithic Grotta Continenza U5b1
    R15 I2a2a 7284-7065 BCE pre-M223 Mesolithic Grotta Continenza U5b3
    R26 I2a2a 3500-900 BCE M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240 Chalcolithic/BA Su Crocefissu H1j9
    R27 I2a2a 3500-900 BCE M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240 Chalcolithic/BA Su Crocefissu H1e1a
    R32 I2a2a 300-700 CE M223>CTS616 Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto H2a1
    R104 I2a1a 400-600 CE L158>Y3992>Z2049>L160>PF4088 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi U5b3a1a
    R63 I2a1b 970-1010 CE M423>Y3104>L161.1>S2639>L1498>Y3749 Medieval Villa Magna K1a2a
    R110 I1 400-600 CE DF29>Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi H1e
    R1286 I1 1411-1447 CE P109>FGC16695>Y3662>S14887>Y4115* Medieval Cancelleria H1g1
    R9 G2a2a 5607-5485 BCE PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565 Neolithic Grotta Continenza K1a4a1
    R64 G2a2a 1070-1150 CE PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval Villa Magna HV0a
    R52 G2a2a 1280-1430 CE PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval Villa Magna T1a1
    R29 G2a2b 3500-900 BCE PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378 Chalcolithic/BA Su Crocefissu J2b1a
    R4 G2a2b 2950-2880 BCE PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807 Chalcolithic Grotta Continenza K1a+195
    R131 G2a2b 0-200 CE M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14* Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria T1a12
    R47 G2a2b 232-333 CE M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591 Imperial Rome Centocelle J1c1c
    R70 G2a2b 100-300 CE P303* Imperial Rome Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada T1a
    R30 G2a2b 300-700 CE P303>L140* Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto L4a2
    R132 G2a2b 136-326 CE CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434 Imperial Rome Marcellino & Pietro R0a2j
    R1545 G2a2b 1-400 CE U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764 Imperial Rome Mazzano Romano H8c
    R108 G2a2b 400-600 CE L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi T2b+150
    R55 G2a2b 1280-1430 CE L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Medieval Villa Magna J2b1a
    R1224 G2a2b 1480-1490 CE L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765 Renaissance Cancelleria T2b4f
    R6 R1b 5242-5177 BCE V2219>V88>Y7777>G72+C51:G68+F50+C51:G68+M52f* Neolithic Grotta Continenza K1a1
    R1016 R1b 900-700 BCE Z2103 Latin_IA Castel di Decima H1aj1a
    R123 R1b 77-213 CE Z2103 Imperial Rome Casale del dolce T2a1b
    R1021 R1b 700-600 BCE L51>Z2118* Latin_IA Boville Ernica U4a1a
    R111 R1b 0-200 CE L51>Z2118>Z2116* Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria H
    R61 R1b 1280-1430 CE L51>Z2118 Medieval Villa Magna HV
    R33 R1b 300-700 CE U152>L2>DF110 Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto K1a
    R1220 R1b 1480-1490 CE DF27>Y30754>Y85515 Renaissance Cancelleria T2f1a1
    R851 R1b 800-500 BCE U152>L2>DF90>F14641>F29470 Latin_IA Ardea H2a
    R437 R1b 400-200 BCE U152>L2>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365 Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe) Palestrina Selciata H10
    R435 R1b 600-200 BCE U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016 Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe) Palestrina Colombella H11a
    R36 R1b 400-600 CE U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016 Late Antiquity Celio T1a1
    R1287 R1b 1411-1447 CE U152 Medieval Cancelleria T2b
    R31 R1b 332-419 CE P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193* Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto K1c1
    R58 R1b 700-1500 CE U106>S263>S264>S497>Y24836>Y28640* Medieval Villa Magna H1c3
    R1548 R1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122>F1345>F2935>F1019 Imperial Rome Monterotondo H2a
    R66 R2a 100-300 CE Y3399>Y3370 Imperial Rome Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada T2
    R17 J 5324-5223 BCE PF5008>L581>Z37823>PF5000>pre-Y29673 Neolithic Ripabianca di Monterado U8b1b
    R81 J 0-200 CE M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842>Y15913 Imperial Rome Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria K1b1c
    R105 J1 400-600 CE Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>FGC12834> PF4876>L829 Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi T1a
    R1547 J1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>Y2919>Y60 94 Imperial Rome Monterotondo K1a7
    R1549 J1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z2331>Y15152>ZS4336 (xZS4312,Y154827) Imperial Rome Monterotondo U5b2b3
    R128 J1a 0-400 CE Z1828>Z1842>Y4423 (xZS3042,BY100,CTS1460a,Y83506) Imperial Rome Casale del dolce HV+16311
    R130 J1a 300-500 CE P58>Y4067>L817>pre-L818 Late Antiquity Marcellino & Pietro H107
    R835 J1a 27 BCE-300 CE Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Y3081 Imperial Rome Civitanova Marche H2a5
    R34 J2a 300-700 CE PF5008>L581* Late Antiquity Mausoleo di Augusto H+195+146
    R117 J2a 400-600 CE L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319 Late Antiquity San Ercolano T2b
    R19 J2a 5345-5221 BCE M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842* Neolithic Ripabianca di Monterado U5b3a1
    R68 J2a1a 100-300 CE L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534 Imperial Rome Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada U7a4a1a
    R1551 J2a1a 55-211 CE M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677 Imperial Rome Monterotondo H
    R1550 J2a1a 27 BCE-300 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264* Imperial Rome Monterotondo T2c1c
    R969 J2a1a 1600-1700 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394 Renaissance Tivoli Palazzo Cianti U5b
    R115 J2a1a 0-200 CE M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672* Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria U4
    R44 J2a1a 1-400 CE L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271 Imperial Rome Isola Sacra T2
    R76 J2a1a 0-200 CE L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649* Imperial Rome Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria T2c1a
    R136 J2a1a 300-500 CE L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772* Late Antiquity Marcellino & Pietro T2d2
    R1221 J2a1a 1480-1490 CE L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147 Renaissance Cancelleria H1e2
    R970 J2a1a 1600-1700 CE L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5* Renaissance Tivoli Palazzo Cianti J1b3
    R1283 J2b1 771-947 CE M205>PF7321* Medieval Cancelleria H12
    R50 J2b1 135-244 CE M205>PF7321>Y134194 Imperial Rome Centocelle H5
    R474 J2b2a 700-600 BCE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190 Etruscan_IA Civitavecchia H
    R116 J2b2a 0-200 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631 Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria U3a2
    R54 J2b2a 1280-1430 CE M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094* Medieval Villa Magna H4a1
    R113 E1b1b 0-200 CE V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y28 62>BY8432>pre-BY8536 Imperial Rome Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria H26a1
    R59 E1b1b 820-990 CE V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y21 919>Y21918* Medieval Villa Magna N1b1a
    R107 E1b1b 400-600 CE V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241>Z 38770* Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi T2h
    R1219 E1b1b 1417-1463 CE V13>Z1057>CTS1273 Renaissance Cancelleria H11a
    R53 E1b1b 1280-1430 CE L19>PF2431>Z21068>PF2438>Y10541>Y10561>pre-FGC19010 Medieval Villa Magna U2e1c1
    R850 T1a1a 800-500 BCE L162>L208* Latin_IA Ardea T2c1f
    R1543 T1a1a 1-400 CE L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709>Y9109>Y18004 * Imperial Rome Mazzano Romano H1e
    R120 T1a2b 400-600 CE L131>Y6033>pre-FGC23008 Late Antiquity San Ercolano I1c
    R1014 H 3500-2500 BCE P96* Chalcolithic (Rinaldone Gaudo) Monte San Biagio N1a1a1a3
    R118 H2 400-600 CE P96>Y21618>Y19962>Y20838>Y20839>Y21598 Late Antiquity San Ercolano H1e1a
    R1285 C1a2 974-1035 CE V20>V86>V182>V222 Medieval Cancelleria T2c1a
    Interesting, so R437 is U152

    R437 R1b 400-200 BCE U152>L2>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365 Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe) Palestrina Selciata H10

  21. #396
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    Mtdna H10 was found in alemanni tribe remains in germany ������
    interesting that this latin dude carry it������

    p.s
    by the way a little update
    in my true ancestry total genetic similarity
    shortest distance
    https://i.imgur.com/lZTyglQ.png

    P.S
    so i guess western jews which acquired a lot of southern european blood
    cluster with some of these imperial romans
    mainly the ones in -cluster C5 from the paper

    i am not surprised by my results of total austosomaly
    Last edited by kingjohn; 17-11-19 at 18:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You're an American; more specifically a mix of the second wave of immigrants that came over in the 20 century. I think that would be a viable cultural identity. You were born in the American Century (post-WWII 20th century) a time when the United States reached the zenith of power and prestige; truly becoming a new Roman empire.

    But also, there's quite a lot of Irish/Italians; almost every Italian-American I know is either marrying an Irish person, or is partly Irish. They can pretty much be an ethnicity on to themselves, imo

    Jewish people I know tend to stay with each other. But they will also consort and sometimes marry other groups primarily from the second wave of working-class immigrants.
    This, I suppose, is my problem making sense of autosomal DNA results. Pieces of my family have been in America since the 17th century, and since then they've been mixing with other immigrants from most every nation in Europe. All my DNA results show is that I'm related to everyone, though with a shading towards northwest Europe.

  23. #398
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    My father wishes we were G2a, good farmer lines, one thing we have in common is the desire to emulate our maternal grandfathers; his being a first generation Sicilian-American cattle rancher in southern California and mine being a New England Yankee of 100% Colonial English stock, descended from Samuel Gorton and Anne Hutchinson and a direct male-line descendant of the last man in England to be burned to death for his religious beliefs, very Anglophile and a history buff. So my dad has a nice little farm in eastern Connecticut, with chickens and cows (my niece loves the cows, which I call her 'beef puppies') while I research the family tree and absorb myself in historical minutiae. I told my father that we, being R1a, are steppe invaders, not peaceful farmers, although I do have farmer mtdna and he may have it as well.

  24. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    My father wishes we were G2a, good farmer lines, one thing we have in common is the desire to emulate our maternal grandfathers; his being a first generation Sicilian-American cattle rancher in southern California and mine being a New England Yankee of 100% Colonial English stock, descended from Samuel Gorton and Anne Hutchinson and a direct male-line descendant of the last man in England to be burned to death for his religious beliefs, very Anglophile and a history buff. So my dad has a nice little farm in eastern Connecticut, with chickens and cows (my niece loves the cows, which I call her 'beef puppies') while I research the family tree and absorb myself in historical minutiae. I told my father that we, being R1a, are steppe invaders, not peaceful farmers, although I do have farmer mtdna and he may have it as well.
    Well, my paternal line is G2a and they were good farmers, coming from Yorkshire c1686, and moving through west Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia and on into Iowa. My father was the last farm boy. My mother's line is also descended from Neolithic farmers, K1a4h, from Holstein, Germany, but later, in the early 1850's.

    Both Y-DNA and mtDNA are easy to understand and somehow satisfying because you can tie them to identifiable individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    And your point is?



    Something wrong with yDna J2, whether J2b or J2a?

    If one could make accurate predictions from maps of modern frequencies it looks to me like either an arrival through Greece and the area around Albania or directly from places like Crete, Cyprus, or Asia Minor. They might have gone directly to Rome or after some hundreds of years in Southern Italy.

    My question was whether you have any pertinent information of where those subclades each are most frequent and when they might have arrived, i.e. the dating. For example, how about Crete? The Peloponnesus? Coastal Anatolia?

    That's what we're trying to do, yes? Figure out how all of the migrations which make up Europeans occurred?
    I saw another map where Western Turkey, around Bosporus channel, Asian side, has autosomal similar with Italians. This creates the impression that people from this area migrated to Italy through sea ways, not necessary through Greece, but circumventing it. That's entirely possible since those people were navigating keeping the land in their sight, not necessary stellar navigation. That could be the source of Italian J///

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