Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

[MOESAN]

Just the link that Pax Augusta has put. I do not know if it is accurate or not, but it very well exemplified my hypothesis about the origin of the Basque and Etruscan language. The stars I thought were decorative, I did not take too much notice, neighboring territories influenced, it may be.

OK, thanks to you and Pax Augusta. But your proper hypothesis about Etruscan and Basque languages doesn't convince me at all. We need more solid basis. And BB phenomenon is not entirely ethnic, we cannot be sure it did not include diverse pops sources.

[Dema]

There is incredibly high percentage of J (J1+J2) haplogroups in Imperial Romans, 13 out of 24 samples belong to haplogroups J1 or J2. However haplogroup J1 distribution percentage seems to fade in later periods.

Interestingly there is not a single I2a-L621, which is today one of main Balkan Y lineages. Strongly associated with a Early Medieval Slavic migrations towards Balkans.
Also haplogroup R1a (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1019/) is represented only in one Imperial Roman sample in subclade that seems to be none-existent in modern Balkans but rather found in Caucasus/Anatolia.
There is also absence in haplogroups N and Q, which are at least in most cases, also connect with Early Medieval migrations towards Balkans.

There is lower percentage of haplogroup E-v13 then expected, only one Imperial Roman and one Renaissance sample is probably not what many people where expecting (me included).

Haplogroups G2a and R1b were found in expected percentage. There was even found Neolithic R1b, but in subclade typical for Sub-Saharan Africa and Middle East, but also in Yfull as can be seen found in Sardinia so probably it belong to this Sardinian branch.

[Angela]

There is incredibly high percentage of J (J1+J2) haplogroups in Imperial Romans, 13 out of 24 samples belong to haplogroups J1 or J2. However haplogroup J1 distribution percentage seems to fade in later periods.

Interestingly there is not a single I2a-L621, which is today one of main Balkan Y lineages. Strongly associated with a Early Medieval Slavic migrations towards Balkans.
Also haplogroup R1a (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1019/) is represented only in one Imperial Roman sample in subclade that seems to be none-existent in modern Balkans but rather found in Caucasus/Anatolia.
There is also absence in haplogroups N and Q, which are at least in most cases, also connect with Early Medieval migrations towards Balkans.

There is lower percentage of haplogroup E-v13 then expected, only one Imperial Roman and one Renaissance sample is probably not what many people where expecting (me included).

Haplogroups G2a and R1b were found in expected percentage. There was even found Neolithic R1b, but in subclade typical for Sub-Saharan Africa and Middle East, but also in Yfull as can be seen found in Sardinia so probably it belong to this Sardinian branch.

The current speculation is that R1b V88 went from either Sardinia/Sicily or Spain to North Africa and then into the heart of Africa.

Fwiw, I've already speculated as to why J1 lineages disappeared.

As to the J2, we really need to track each one of them back, because some J2 was in Neolithic Anatolia, and some was in Europe very early indeed, while others might have come late.

One size doesn't fit all with J2.

[kingjohn]

Also was suprising at least to me
was the( 2 E-v12 samples) and not to found
The more middle eastern E types E-v22 and E-m123 in remains.
but thats what is so cool in ancient dna 😉

[Dema]

As to the J2, we really need to track each one of them back, because some J2 was in Neolithic Anatolia, and some was in Europe very early indeed, while others might have come late.

One size doesn't fit all with J2.

Majority J2a-M410 in various subclades, and some J2b-L283 and some J2b-M205.

However, nevertheless, according to this study Imperial Romans had over 50 % of J haplogroups. Of course various subclades and various origins but still..

J2a	300-700 CE		PF5008>L581*	Late Antiquity
J2a	400-600 CE		L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319	Late Antiquity
J2a	5345-5221 BCE	J-S11842* Y15913- Z6271-	M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842*	Neolithic
J2a1a	100-300 CE	R68 J-Y13534* Y23159- Y14696-	L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	55-211 CE	R-Z30677	M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	27 BCE-300 CE	J-Z6264* Z28602-	M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264*	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	1600-1700 CE		M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394	Renaissance
J2a1a	0-200 CE	J-PH672 Y150774-	M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672*	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	1-400 CE	J-Z6271	L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	0-200 CE	J-Y47649	L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649*	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	300-500 CE	J-Z40772 FGC58752-	L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772*	Late Antiquity
J2a1a	1480-1490 CE		L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147	Renaissance
J2a1a	1600-1700 CE	J-Z435	L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5*	Renaissance
J2b1	771-947 CE	J-PF7321 Y45447- YP51- FT45018- Y134194- Y22037-	M205>PF7321*	Medieval
J2b1	135-244 CE	J-Y134194	M205>PF7321>Y134194	Imperial Rome
J2b2a	700-600 BCE	J-CTS6190	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190	Etruscan_IA
J2b2a	0-200 CE		M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631	Imperial Rome
J2b2a	1280-1430 CE		M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094*	Medieval

[Angela]

Majority J2a-M410 in various subclades, and some J2b-L283 and some J2b-M205.

However, nevertheless, according to this study Imperial Romans had over 50 % of J haplogroups. Of course various subclades and various origins but still..

J2a	300-700 CE		PF5008>L581*	Late Antiquity
J2a	400-600 CE		L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319	Late Antiquity
J2a	5345-5221 BCE	J-S11842* Y15913- Z6271-	M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842*	Neolithic
J2a1a	100-300 CE	R68 J-Y13534* Y23159- Y14696-	L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	55-211 CE	R-Z30677	M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	27 BCE-300 CE	J-Z6264* Z28602-	M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264*	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	1600-1700 CE		M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394	Renaissance
J2a1a	0-200 CE	J-PH672 Y150774-	M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672*	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	1-400 CE	J-Z6271	L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	0-200 CE	J-Y47649	L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649*	Imperial Rome
J2a1a	300-500 CE	J-Z40772 FGC58752-	L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772*	Late Antiquity
J2a1a	1480-1490 CE		L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147	Renaissance
J2a1a	1600-1700 CE	J-Z435	L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5*	Renaissance
J2b1	771-947 CE	J-PF7321 Y45447- YP51- FT45018- Y134194- Y22037-	M205>PF7321*	Medieval
J2b1	135-244 CE	J-Y134194	M205>PF7321>Y134194	Imperial Rome
J2b2a	700-600 BCE	J-CTS6190	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190	Etruscan_IA
J2b2a	0-200 CE		M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631	Imperial Rome
J2b2a	1280-1430 CE		M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094*	Medieval

And your point is?



Something wrong with yDna J2, whether J2b or J2a?

If one could make accurate predictions from maps of modern frequencies it looks to me like either an arrival through Greece and the area around Albania or directly from places like Crete, Cyprus, or Asia Minor. They might have gone directly to Rome or after some hundreds of years in Southern Italy.

My question was whether you have any pertinent information of where those subclades each are most frequent and when they might have arrived, i.e. the dating. For example, how about Crete? The Peloponnesus? Coastal Anatolia?

That's what we're trying to do, yes? Figure out how all of the migrations which make up Europeans occurred?

[Dema]

And your point is? Something wrong with yDna J2, whether J2b or J2a?

Absolutely not, as you see i am J haplogroup myself, when i say Imperial Romans had over 50 % of J haplogroup, its a fact that i am proud on : )

If one could make accurate predictions from maps of modern frequencies it looks to me like either an arrival through Greece and the area around Albania or directly from places like Crete, Cyprus, or Asia Minor.

My question was whether you have any pertinent information of where those subclades each are most frequent and when they might have arrived, i.e. the dating.

That's what we're trying to do, yes? Figure out how all of the migrations which make up Europeans occurred?

Each of these can be checked in Yfull where modern samples are found today and TMRCA and upward genetic tree can be seen.
Most of these have already Yfull link included. As it can be seen J2a-M410 is in various branches and its a mess to try to make a sense out of all of them even tho its not that hard if anyone has free time.
While J2b-M205 and J2b-L283 have lower TMRCA therefore we can look at them as branches that expanded from same place. J2b-L283 most likely picked up by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans somewhere in North Caucasus and spread throughout Europe while J2-M205 had Bronze Age Fertile Crescent expansion therefore likely arrived thru Phoenicians or later Roman Empire.

[Angela]

Absolutely not, as you see i am J haplogroup myself, when i say Imperial Romans had over 50 % of J haplogroup, its a fact that i am proud on : )





Each of these can be checked in Yfull where modern samples are found today and TMRCA and upward genetic tree can be seen.
Most of these have already Yfull link included. As it can be seen J2a-M410 is in various branches and its a mess to try to make a sense out of all of them even tho its not that hard if anyone has free time.
While J2b-M205 and J2b-L283 have lower TMRCA therefore we can look at them as one branch from same origin. J2b-L283 most likely picked up by Indo-Europeans and spread throughout Europe while J2-M205 had Bronze Age Fertile Crescent expansion therefore likely arrived thru Phoenicians or later Roman Empire.

My husband is G2a2. I wish he'd get it further refined, but he's not interested enough. He just wants the highlights!:)

[Dema]

My husband is G2a2. I wish he'd get it further refined, but he's not interested enough. He just wants the highlights!:)

Here is situation within G2a:

G2a2a	5607-5485 BCE	G-Z42565	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565	Neolithic
G2a2a	1070-1150 CE	G-Z6228	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval
G2a2a	1280-1430 CE	G-Z6228	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval
G2a2b	3500-900 BCE	G-PF3378	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378	Chalcolithic/BA
G2a2b	2950-2880 BCE	pre-G-F807	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807	Chalcolithic
G2a2b	0-200 CE	G-L14* Z45043- FGC5185-	M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14*	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	232-333 CE	G-S9591	M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	100-300 CE	G-P303	P303*	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	300-700 CE	G-L140 PF3346- (Z31254- Z31256- Z31258-)	P303>L140*	Late Antiquity
G2a2b	136-326 CE	G-Z6434* (Z3571- FGC295- Z6993- Z6994- Z6996-)	CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	1-400 CE	pre-G-Z6764	U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	400-600 CE	G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765-	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Late Antiquity
G2a2b	1280-1430 CE	G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765-	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Medieval
G2a2b	1480-1490 CE	G-S18765	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765	Renaissance

[Angela]

Here is situation within G2a:

G2a2a	5607-5485 BCE	G-Z42565	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565	Neolithic
G2a2a	1070-1150 CE	G-Z6228	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval
G2a2a	1280-1430 CE	G-Z6228	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval
G2a2b	3500-900 BCE	G-PF3378	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378	Chalcolithic/BA
G2a2b	2950-2880 BCE	pre-G-F807	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807	Chalcolithic
G2a2b	0-200 CE	G-L14* Z45043- FGC5185-	M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14*	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	232-333 CE	G-S9591	M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	100-300 CE	G-P303	P303*	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	300-700 CE	G-L140 PF3346- (Z31254- Z31256- Z31258-)	P303>L140*	Late Antiquity
G2a2b	136-326 CE	G-Z6434* (Z3571- FGC295- Z6993- Z6994- Z6996-)	CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	1-400 CE	pre-G-Z6764	U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764	Imperial Rome
G2a2b	400-600 CE	G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765-	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Late Antiquity
G2a2b	1280-1430 CE	G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765-	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Medieval
G2a2b	1480-1490 CE	G-S18765	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765	Renaissance

Thanks, Dema.

Now, if I could just get him to test it with FTDNA or something. :)

He likes the idea it could be an original Neolithic lineage in Italy, I think. Actually, the first thing he asked was if anybody famous carried it. I told him Stalin was G2a, but not G2a2. He wouldn't have been happy to share Stalin's clade, although I'm sure there are a lot of wonderful men who carry that particular lineage.

As you can tell, I'm the only one in my family who has any real interest in population genetics.

It took forever to find out my Dad carried U-152.

I'm afraid I don't have very much interest in my own U2e mtDna. It's so old and so spread all over the world that it's hard to identify with it. Plus, it accounts for so little of my total genetic make-up.

Well, I care about the health implications bound up with mtDna, but not from an "identification" standpoint.

[Dema]

Thanks, Dema.

Now, if I could just get him to test it with FTDNA or something. :)

He likes the idea it could be an original Neolithic lineage in Italy, I think. Actually, the first thing he asked was if anybody famous carried it. I told him Stalin was G2a, but not G2a2. He wouldn't have been happy to share Stalin's clade, although I'm sure there are a lot of wonderful men who carry that particular lineage.

As you can tell, I'm the only one in my family who has any real interest in population genetics.

It took forever to find out my Dad carried U-152.

I'm afraid I don't have very much interest in my own U2e mtDna. It's so old and so spread all over the world that it's hard to identify with it. Plus, it accounts for so little of my total genetic make-up.

Well, I care about the health implications bound up with mtDna, but not from an "identification" standpoint.

Hehe i guess he is right handed towards politics if he didnt like Stalin : )
Who knows he probably has some of these G2a samples close. Best would be BigY-700.

Except BigY test + Yfull upload, best gift woman can give a man is baby boy that will carry on Y-DNA and tradition : )

I am joking a bit, daughters are excellent also : )

[Dema]

Also i forgot haplogroup I1 was pretty much absent in ancient Romans, but appeared later:

I1	400-600 CE	I-Y7234	DF29>Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234	Late Antiquity
I1	1411-1447CE	I-Y4115	P109>FGC16695>Y3662>S14887>Y4115*	Medieval

[Ailchu]

Elementary question. Isn't Steppe ancestry itself roughly 50% CHG/Iran Neo, with the balance Ancient North Eurasian and EHG? And isn't ANE found in Native Americans?

My impression is that the only thing that distinguishes Southern Italians and Greeks from other Europeans is that they--or to speak in the first-person, "we"--carry more CHG and only a small fraction of EHG and ANE. And perhaps "we" also have some small percentage of North African admixture. But for the most part, all Europeans, including Southern Italians, are comprised of Anatolian Neolithic, CHG/Iranian Neolithic, and WHG.

Do I at least have the fundamentals correct?

And in reference to Angela's comments elsewhere in this thread, it would be nice if 23andme and other testing companies used the same nomenclature as academic scientists to describe various genetic components. So rather than say that Calabrians have lots of Middle Eastern ancestry (which is very vague and confusing), they should use terms like Anatolian Neolithic and CHG/Iranian Neolithic.

It's all a load of bunk to make people who have "no life' feel secure in their dismal state. Genetically the component makeup of Europeans varies (as you note) between minute proportions of WHG, CHG, EHG, ENF, which if you think about it is really pretty incidental. Are we going to argue which component is more "valuable" to European culture/civilization or openly acknowledge differences as significant to the creation of the Euro ethos. I wonder if this whole northern=fairer notion may also be debunked since there is evidence that Anatolian farmers (7000 bce) may have introduced the "light" skinned allele into Europe.

correct, now we only need to take the focus away from europe. you see, the hate southern europe gets from some nordicist racists from all over europe, is based on the believe in possible near eastern, "non-european" ancestry in the south. so the aversion is actually against near east and everything that could be tied to modern near eastern populations. only discussing european genetics and thier differences here feels as if the nazis ring at the door to deport "untermenschen" but you explain there are none in your house then close the door and silently let the nazis continue their thing.

all westeurasian populations have only very small differences. an exception are maybe some north africans with significiant sub saharan african. but even there, those who are not having significant admixture are extremely similar. and that is concidering, that all human populations are already very similar.
it's ridiculous how many people still can't understand this eventhough they have all the data to know it better. there is so much denial.

[Angela]

Hehe i guess he is right handed towards politics if he didnt like Stalin : )
Who knows he probably has some of these G2a samples close. Best would be BigY-700.

Except BigY test + Yfull upload, best gift woman can give a man is baby boy that will carry on Y-DNA and tradition : )

I am joking a bit, daughters are excellent also : )

He's conservative by American standards, which means very conservative indeed, but it's the fact Stalin was a homicidal butcher who killed millions of people that created the aversion. I've rarely met anyone as compassionate toward other people. Certain behaviors are beyond his comprehension.

Cultures differ. I can't imagine my husband ever caring about passing on his "y line". He wasn't one of those men who was dying to have children at all, but if he had a preference, it was for girls. My father was the same way. There's a saying: a son's a son till he takes a wife, a daughter's a daughter till the end of her life. I think that's very often true. He does care about passing on his family's culture to a degree, but not as much as I do. When push comes to shove he's an American. I'm hanging out somewhere in the Atlantic. Anyway, there's a wide variety of yDna in Italy as you yourself have pointed out.

[Dema]

So here is all samples so far, also thanks to whoever put them together in excel file.

SAMPLE ID	Y-HAPLOGROUP	DATE	TERMINAL Y-SNP	PERIOD/CULTURE	LOCATION	mtDNA
R11	I2a2	10100-9816 BCE	M436	Mesolithic	Grotta Continenza	U5b1
R7	I2a2a	8821-8642 BCE	pre-M223	Mesolithic	Grotta Continenza	U5b1
R15	I2a2a	7284-7065 BCE	pre-M223	Mesolithic	Grotta Continenza	U5b3
R26	I2a2a	3500-900 BCE	M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240	Chalcolithic/BA	Su Crocefissu	H1j9
R27	I2a2a	3500-900 BCE	M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240	Chalcolithic/BA	Su Crocefissu	H1e1a
R32	I2a2a	300-700 CE	M223>CTS616	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	H2a1
R104	I2a1a	400-600 CE	L158>Y3992>Z2049>L160>PF4088	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	U5b3a1a
R63	I2a1b	970-1010 CE	M423>Y3104>L161.1>S2639>L1498>Y3749	Medieval	Villa Magna	K1a2a
R110	I1	400-600 CE	DF29>Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	H1e
R1286	I1	1411-1447 CE	P109>FGC16695>Y3662>S14887>Y4115*	Medieval	Cancelleria	H1g1
R9	G2a2a	5607-5485 BCE	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565	Neolithic	Grotta Continenza	K1a4a1
R64	G2a2a	1070-1150 CE	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval	Villa Magna	HV0a
R52	G2a2a	1280-1430 CE	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval	Villa Magna	T1a1
R29	G2a2b	3500-900 BCE	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378	Chalcolithic/BA	Su Crocefissu	J2b1a
R4	G2a2b	2950-2880 BCE	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807	Chalcolithic	Grotta Continenza	K1a+195
R131	G2a2b	0-200 CE	M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14*	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	T1a12
R47	G2a2b	232-333 CE	M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591	Imperial Rome	Centocelle	J1c1c
R70	G2a2b	100-300 CE	P303*	Imperial Rome	Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada	T1a
R30	G2a2b	300-700 CE	P303>L140*	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	L4a2
R132	G2a2b	136-326 CE	CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434	Imperial Rome	Marcellino & Pietro	R0a2j
R1545	G2a2b	1-400 CE	U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764	Imperial Rome	Mazzano Romano	H8c
R108	G2a2b	400-600 CE	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	T2b+150
R55	G2a2b	1280-1430 CE	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Medieval	Villa Magna	J2b1a
R1224	G2a2b	1480-1490 CE	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765	Renaissance	Cancelleria	T2b4f
R6	R1b	5242-5177 BCE	V2219>V88>Y7777>G72+C51:G68+F50+C51:G68+M52f*	Neolithic	Grotta Continenza	K1a1
R1016	R1b	900-700 BCE	Z2103	Latin_IA	Castel di Decima	H1aj1a
R123	R1b	77-213 CE	Z2103	Imperial Rome	Casale del dolce	T2a1b
R1021	R1b	700-600 BCE	L51>Z2118*	Latin_IA	Boville Ernica	U4a1a
R111	R1b	0-200 CE	L51>Z2118>Z2116*	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	H
R61	R1b	1280-1430 CE	L51>Z2118	Medieval	Villa Magna	HV
R33	R1b	300-700 CE	U152>L2>DF110	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	K1a
R1220	R1b	1480-1490 CE	DF27>Y30754>Y85515	Renaissance	Cancelleria	T2f1a1
R851	R1b	800-500 BCE	U152>L2>DF90>F14641>F29470	Latin_IA	Ardea	H2a
R437	R1b	400-200 BCE	U152>L2>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365	Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe)	Palestrina Selciata	H10
R435	R1b	600-200 BCE	U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016	Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe)	Palestrina Colombella	H11a
R36	R1b	400-600 CE	U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016	Late Antiquity	Celio	T1a1
R1287	R1b	1411-1447 CE	U152	Medieval	Cancelleria	T2b
R31	R1b	332-419 CE	P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193*	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	K1c1
R58	R1b	700-1500 CE	U106>S263>S264>S497>Y24836>Y28640*	Medieval	Villa Magna	H1c3
R1548	R1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122>F1345>F2935>F1019	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	H2a
R66	R2a	100-300 CE	Y3399>Y3370	Imperial Rome	Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada	T2
R17	J	5324-5223 BCE	PF5008>L581>Z37823>PF5000>pre-Y29673	Neolithic	Ripabianca di Monterado	U8b1b
R81	J	0-200 CE	M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842>Y15913	Imperial Rome	Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria	K1b1c
R105	J1	400-600 CE	Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>FGC12834> PF4876>L829	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	T1a
R1547	J1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>Y2919>Y60 94	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	K1a7
R1549	J1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z2331>Y15152>ZS4336 (xZS4312,Y154827)	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	U5b2b3
R128	J1a	0-400 CE	Z1828>Z1842>Y4423 (xZS3042,BY100,CTS1460a,Y83506)	Imperial Rome	Casale del dolce	HV+16311
R130	J1a	300-500 CE	P58>Y4067>L817>pre-L818	Late Antiquity	Marcellino & Pietro	H107
R835	J1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Y3081	Imperial Rome	Civitanova Marche	H2a5
R34	J2a	300-700 CE	PF5008>L581*	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	H+195+146
R117	J2a	400-600 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319	Late Antiquity	San Ercolano	T2b
R19	J2a	5345-5221 BCE	M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842*	Neolithic	Ripabianca di Monterado	U5b3a1
R68	J2a1a	100-300 CE	L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534	Imperial Rome	Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada	U7a4a1a
R1551	J2a1a	55-211 CE	M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	H
R1550	J2a1a	27 BCE-300 CE	M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264*	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	T2c1c
R969	J2a1a	1600-1700 CE	M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394	Renaissance	Tivoli Palazzo Cianti	U5b
R115	J2a1a	0-200 CE	M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672*	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	U4
R44	J2a1a	1-400 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271	Imperial Rome	Isola Sacra	T2
R76	J2a1a	0-200 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649*	Imperial Rome	Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria	T2c1a
R136	J2a1a	300-500 CE	L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772*	Late Antiquity	Marcellino & Pietro	T2d2
R1221	J2a1a	1480-1490 CE	L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147	Renaissance	Cancelleria	H1e2
R970	J2a1a	1600-1700 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5*	Renaissance	Tivoli Palazzo Cianti	J1b3
R1283	J2b1	771-947 CE	M205>PF7321*	Medieval	Cancelleria	H12
R50	J2b1	135-244 CE	M205>PF7321>Y134194	Imperial Rome	Centocelle	H5
R474	J2b2a	700-600 BCE	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190	Etruscan_IA	Civitavecchia	H
R116	J2b2a	0-200 CE	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	U3a2
R54	J2b2a	1280-1430 CE	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094*	Medieval	Villa Magna	H4a1
R113	E1b1b	0-200 CE	V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y28 62>BY8432>pre-BY8536	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	H26a1
R59	E1b1b	820-990 CE	V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y21 919>Y21918*	Medieval	Villa Magna	N1b1a
R107	E1b1b	400-600 CE	V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241>Z 38770*	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	T2h
R1219	E1b1b	1417-1463 CE	V13>Z1057>CTS1273	Renaissance	Cancelleria	H11a
R53	E1b1b	1280-1430 CE	L19>PF2431>Z21068>PF2438>Y10541>Y10561>pre-FGC19010	Medieval	Villa Magna	U2e1c1
R850	T1a1a	800-500 BCE	L162>L208*	Latin_IA	Ardea	T2c1f
R1543	T1a1a	1-400 CE	L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709>Y9109>Y18004 *	Imperial Rome	Mazzano Romano	H1e
R120	T1a2b	400-600 CE	L131>Y6033>pre-FGC23008	Late Antiquity	San Ercolano	I1c
R1014	H	3500-2500 BCE	P96*	Chalcolithic (Rinaldone Gaudo)	Monte San Biagio	N1a1a1a3
R118	H2	400-600 CE	P96>Y21618>Y19962>Y20838>Y20839>Y21598	Late Antiquity	San Ercolano	H1e1a
R1285	C1a2	974-1035 CE	V20>V86>V182>V222	Medieval	Cancelleria	T2c1a

[davef]

He's conservative by American standards, which means very conservative indeed, but it's the fact Stalin was a homicidal butcher who killed millions of people that created the aversion. I've rarely met anyone as compassionate toward other people. Certain behaviors are beyond his comprehension.

Cultures differ. I can't imagine my husband ever caring about passing on his "y line". He wasn't one of those men who was dying to have children at all, but if he had a preference, it was for girls. My father was the same way. There's a saying: a son's a son till he takes a wife, a daughter's a daughter till the end of her life. I think that's very often true. He does care about passing on his family's culture to a degree, but not as much as I do. When push comes to shove he's an American. I'm hanging out somewhere in the Atlantic. Anyway, there's a wide variety of yDna in Italy as you yourself have pointed out.

I'm too mixed to even have a cultural identity, i see myself as a living breathing thing who contributes to this world with my tech saviness who will eventually die and be eaten by worms, just like my ancestors did

[halfalp]

Do anybody has clues about Steppe ancestry in Etruscans and Italics? I've read here and there that some samples choose Yamnaya ancestry before BB ancestry, while others look like BB's. Does that mean that in overall, BB ancestry is the sole and unique " Steppe " ancestry in Western Europe? In the mean that, if we accept the hypothesis that IE languages came from the Steppe, BB's were probably the sole and unique speakers of it until it collapsed in different dialects?

This would mean that, anybody IE or Not at some point could have had BB ancestry, but that all IE speakers had it too. Making it very difficult to say who spoked what ( a part from already known hypothesis ) even with Steppe ancestry. So we could say at some point, virtually all Western Europe had BB ancestry, but in this whole, not all of them were IE speakers.

[Jovialis]

I'm too mixed to even have a cultural identity, i see myself as a living breathing thing who contributes to this world with my tech saviness who will eventually die and be eaten by worms, just like my ancestors did

You're an American; more specifically a mix of the second wave of immigrants that came over in the 20 century. I think that would be a viable cultural identity. You were born in the American Century (post-WWII 20th century) a time when the United States reached the zenith of power and prestige; truly becoming a new Roman empire.

But also, there's quite a lot of Irish/Italians; almost every Italian-American I know is either marrying an Irish person, or is partly Irish. They can pretty much be an ethnicity on to themselves, imo

Jewish people I know tend to stay with each other. But they will also consort and sometimes marry other groups primarily from the second wave of working-class immigrants.

[halfalp]

So here is all samples so far, also thanks to whoever put them together in excel file.

SAMPLE ID	Y-HAPLOGROUP	DATE	TERMINAL Y-SNP	PERIOD/CULTURE	LOCATION	mtDNA
R11	I2a2	10100-9816 BCE	M436	Mesolithic	Grotta Continenza	U5b1
R7	I2a2a	8821-8642 BCE	pre-M223	Mesolithic	Grotta Continenza	U5b1
R15	I2a2a	7284-7065 BCE	pre-M223	Mesolithic	Grotta Continenza	U5b3
R26	I2a2a	3500-900 BCE	M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240	Chalcolithic/BA	Su Crocefissu	H1j9
R27	I2a2a	3500-900 BCE	M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240	Chalcolithic/BA	Su Crocefissu	H1e1a
R32	I2a2a	300-700 CE	M223>CTS616	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	H2a1
R104	I2a1a	400-600 CE	L158>Y3992>Z2049>L160>PF4088	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	U5b3a1a
R63	I2a1b	970-1010 CE	M423>Y3104>L161.1>S2639>L1498>Y3749	Medieval	Villa Magna	K1a2a
R110	I1	400-600 CE	DF29>Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	H1e
R1286	I1	1411-1447 CE	P109>FGC16695>Y3662>S14887>Y4115*	Medieval	Cancelleria	H1g1
R9	G2a2a	5607-5485 BCE	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565	Neolithic	Grotta Continenza	K1a4a1
R64	G2a2a	1070-1150 CE	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval	Villa Magna	HV0a
R52	G2a2a	1280-1430 CE	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval	Villa Magna	T1a1
R29	G2a2b	3500-900 BCE	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378	Chalcolithic/BA	Su Crocefissu	J2b1a
R4	G2a2b	2950-2880 BCE	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807	Chalcolithic	Grotta Continenza	K1a+195
R131	G2a2b	0-200 CE	M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14*	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	T1a12
R47	G2a2b	232-333 CE	M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591	Imperial Rome	Centocelle	J1c1c
R70	G2a2b	100-300 CE	P303*	Imperial Rome	Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada	T1a
R30	G2a2b	300-700 CE	P303>L140*	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	L4a2
R132	G2a2b	136-326 CE	CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434	Imperial Rome	Marcellino & Pietro	R0a2j
R1545	G2a2b	1-400 CE	U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764	Imperial Rome	Mazzano Romano	H8c
R108	G2a2b	400-600 CE	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	T2b+150
R55	G2a2b	1280-1430 CE	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Medieval	Villa Magna	J2b1a
R1224	G2a2b	1480-1490 CE	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765	Renaissance	Cancelleria	T2b4f
R6	R1b	5242-5177 BCE	V2219>V88>Y7777>G72+C51:G68+F50+C51:G68+M52f*	Neolithic	Grotta Continenza	K1a1
R1016	R1b	900-700 BCE	Z2103	Latin_IA	Castel di Decima	H1aj1a
R123	R1b	77-213 CE	Z2103	Imperial Rome	Casale del dolce	T2a1b
R1021	R1b	700-600 BCE	L51>Z2118*	Latin_IA	Boville Ernica	U4a1a
R111	R1b	0-200 CE	L51>Z2118>Z2116*	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	H
R61	R1b	1280-1430 CE	L51>Z2118	Medieval	Villa Magna	HV
R33	R1b	300-700 CE	U152>L2>DF110	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	K1a
R1220	R1b	1480-1490 CE	DF27>Y30754>Y85515	Renaissance	Cancelleria	T2f1a1
R851	R1b	800-500 BCE	U152>L2>DF90>F14641>F29470	Latin_IA	Ardea	H2a
R437	R1b	400-200 BCE	U152>L2>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365	Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe)	Palestrina Selciata	H10
R435	R1b	600-200 BCE	U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016	Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe)	Palestrina Colombella	H11a
R36	R1b	400-600 CE	U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016	Late Antiquity	Celio	T1a1
R1287	R1b	1411-1447 CE	U152	Medieval	Cancelleria	T2b
R31	R1b	332-419 CE	P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193*	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	K1c1
R58	R1b	700-1500 CE	U106>S263>S264>S497>Y24836>Y28640*	Medieval	Villa Magna	H1c3
R1548	R1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122>F1345>F2935>F1019	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	H2a
R66	R2a	100-300 CE	Y3399>Y3370	Imperial Rome	Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada	T2
R17	J	5324-5223 BCE	PF5008>L581>Z37823>PF5000>pre-Y29673	Neolithic	Ripabianca di Monterado	U8b1b
R81	J	0-200 CE	M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842>Y15913	Imperial Rome	Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria	K1b1c
R105	J1	400-600 CE	Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>FGC12834> PF4876>L829	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	T1a
R1547	J1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>Y2919>Y60 94	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	K1a7
R1549	J1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z2331>Y15152>ZS4336 (xZS4312,Y154827)	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	U5b2b3
R128	J1a	0-400 CE	Z1828>Z1842>Y4423 (xZS3042,BY100,CTS1460a,Y83506)	Imperial Rome	Casale del dolce	HV+16311
R130	J1a	300-500 CE	P58>Y4067>L817>pre-L818	Late Antiquity	Marcellino & Pietro	H107
R835	J1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Y3081	Imperial Rome	Civitanova Marche	H2a5
R34	J2a	300-700 CE	PF5008>L581*	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	H+195+146
R117	J2a	400-600 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319	Late Antiquity	San Ercolano	T2b
R19	J2a	5345-5221 BCE	M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842*	Neolithic	Ripabianca di Monterado	U5b3a1
R68	J2a1a	100-300 CE	L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534	Imperial Rome	Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada	U7a4a1a
R1551	J2a1a	55-211 CE	M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	H
R1550	J2a1a	27 BCE-300 CE	M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264*	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	T2c1c
R969	J2a1a	1600-1700 CE	M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394	Renaissance	Tivoli Palazzo Cianti	U5b
R115	J2a1a	0-200 CE	M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672*	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	U4
R44	J2a1a	1-400 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271	Imperial Rome	Isola Sacra	T2
R76	J2a1a	0-200 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649*	Imperial Rome	Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria	T2c1a
R136	J2a1a	300-500 CE	L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772*	Late Antiquity	Marcellino & Pietro	T2d2
R1221	J2a1a	1480-1490 CE	L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147	Renaissance	Cancelleria	H1e2
R970	J2a1a	1600-1700 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5*	Renaissance	Tivoli Palazzo Cianti	J1b3
R1283	J2b1	771-947 CE	M205>PF7321*	Medieval	Cancelleria	H12
R50	J2b1	135-244 CE	M205>PF7321>Y134194	Imperial Rome	Centocelle	H5
R474	J2b2a	700-600 BCE	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190	Etruscan_IA	Civitavecchia	H
R116	J2b2a	0-200 CE	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	U3a2
R54	J2b2a	1280-1430 CE	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094*	Medieval	Villa Magna	H4a1
R113	E1b1b	0-200 CE	V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y28 62>BY8432>pre-BY8536	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	H26a1
R59	E1b1b	820-990 CE	V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y21 919>Y21918*	Medieval	Villa Magna	N1b1a
R107	E1b1b	400-600 CE	V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241>Z 38770*	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	T2h
R1219	E1b1b	1417-1463 CE	V13>Z1057>CTS1273	Renaissance	Cancelleria	H11a
R53	E1b1b	1280-1430 CE	L19>PF2431>Z21068>PF2438>Y10541>Y10561>pre-FGC19010	Medieval	Villa Magna	U2e1c1
R850	T1a1a	800-500 BCE	L162>L208*	Latin_IA	Ardea	T2c1f
R1543	T1a1a	1-400 CE	L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709>Y9109>Y18004 *	Imperial Rome	Mazzano Romano	H1e
R120	T1a2b	400-600 CE	L131>Y6033>pre-FGC23008	Late Antiquity	San Ercolano	I1c
R1014	H	3500-2500 BCE	P96*	Chalcolithic (Rinaldone Gaudo)	Monte San Biagio	N1a1a1a3
R118	H2	400-600 CE	P96>Y21618>Y19962>Y20838>Y20839>Y21598	Late Antiquity	San Ercolano	H1e1a
R1285	C1a2	974-1035 CE	V20>V86>V182>V222	Medieval	Cancelleria	T2c1a

Thanks, i always found interesting that, G2a2a and G2a2b were found together in European Neolithic and later phases. While G2a1 is almost solely in the Caucasus Mountains as we know. I wonder when and where G2a2 and G2a1 splited and how they started to spread. It's interesting that for now, no Mesolithic samples from Anatolia or the Caucasus have shown neither of them.

[Jovialis]

So here is all samples so far, also thanks to whoever put them together in excel file.

SAMPLE ID	Y-HAPLOGROUP	DATE	TERMINAL Y-SNP	PERIOD/CULTURE	LOCATION	mtDNA
R11	I2a2	10100-9816 BCE	M436	Mesolithic	Grotta Continenza	U5b1
R7	I2a2a	8821-8642 BCE	pre-M223	Mesolithic	Grotta Continenza	U5b1
R15	I2a2a	7284-7065 BCE	pre-M223	Mesolithic	Grotta Continenza	U5b3
R26	I2a2a	3500-900 BCE	M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240	Chalcolithic/BA	Su Crocefissu	H1j9
R27	I2a2a	3500-900 BCE	M223>CTS616>Y3721>Y3670>Y7240	Chalcolithic/BA	Su Crocefissu	H1e1a
R32	I2a2a	300-700 CE	M223>CTS616	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	H2a1
R104	I2a1a	400-600 CE	L158>Y3992>Z2049>L160>PF4088	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	U5b3a1a
R63	I2a1b	970-1010 CE	M423>Y3104>L161.1>S2639>L1498>Y3749	Medieval	Villa Magna	K1a2a
R110	I1	400-600 CE	DF29>Z63>BY151>FGC81364>S2078>S2077>Y2245>Y7234	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	H1e
R1286	I1	1411-1447 CE	P109>FGC16695>Y3662>S14887>Y4115*	Medieval	Cancelleria	H1g1
R9	G2a2a	5607-5485 BCE	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565	Neolithic	Grotta Continenza	K1a4a1
R64	G2a2a	1070-1150 CE	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval	Villa Magna	HV0a
R52	G2a2a	1280-1430 CE	PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228	Medieval	Villa Magna	T1a1
R29	G2a2b	3500-900 BCE	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378	Chalcolithic/BA	Su Crocefissu	J2b1a
R4	G2a2b	2950-2880 BCE	PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807	Chalcolithic	Grotta Continenza	K1a+195
R131	G2a2b	0-200 CE	M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14*	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	T1a12
R47	G2a2b	232-333 CE	M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591	Imperial Rome	Centocelle	J1c1c
R70	G2a2b	100-300 CE	P303*	Imperial Rome	Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada	T1a
R30	G2a2b	300-700 CE	P303>L140*	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	L4a2
R132	G2a2b	136-326 CE	CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434	Imperial Rome	Marcellino & Pietro	R0a2j
R1545	G2a2b	1-400 CE	U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764	Imperial Rome	Mazzano Romano	H8c
R108	G2a2b	400-600 CE	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	T2b+150
R55	G2a2b	1280-1430 CE	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808	Medieval	Villa Magna	J2b1a
R1224	G2a2b	1480-1490 CE	L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765	Renaissance	Cancelleria	T2b4f
R6	R1b	5242-5177 BCE	V2219>V88>Y7777>G72+C51:G68+F50+C51:G68+M52f*	Neolithic	Grotta Continenza	K1a1
R1016	R1b	900-700 BCE	Z2103	Latin_IA	Castel di Decima	H1aj1a
R123	R1b	77-213 CE	Z2103	Imperial Rome	Casale del dolce	T2a1b
R1021	R1b	700-600 BCE	L51>Z2118*	Latin_IA	Boville Ernica	U4a1a
R111	R1b	0-200 CE	L51>Z2118>Z2116*	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	H
R61	R1b	1280-1430 CE	L51>Z2118	Medieval	Villa Magna	HV
R33	R1b	300-700 CE	U152>L2>DF110	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	K1a
R1220	R1b	1480-1490 CE	DF27>Y30754>Y85515	Renaissance	Cancelleria	T2f1a1
R851	R1b	800-500 BCE	U152>L2>DF90>F14641>F29470	Latin_IA	Ardea	H2a
R437	R1b	400-200 BCE	U152>L2>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365	Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe)	Palestrina Selciata	H10
R435	R1b	600-200 BCE	U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016	Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe)	Palestrina Colombella	H11a
R36	R1b	400-600 CE	U152>Z56>Z43>Z145>CTS6389>FT152016	Late Antiquity	Celio	T1a1
R1287	R1b	1411-1447 CE	U152	Medieval	Cancelleria	T2b
R31	R1b	332-419 CE	P312>DF19>Z302>Z8193*	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	K1c1
R58	R1b	700-1500 CE	U106>S263>S264>S497>Y24836>Y28640*	Medieval	Villa Magna	H1c3
R1548	R1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122>F1345>F2935>F1019	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	H2a
R66	R2a	100-300 CE	Y3399>Y3370	Imperial Rome	Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada	T2
R17	J	5324-5223 BCE	PF5008>L581>Z37823>PF5000>pre-Y29673	Neolithic	Ripabianca di Monterado	U8b1b
R81	J	0-200 CE	M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842>Y15913	Imperial Rome	Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria	K1b1c
R105	J1	400-600 CE	Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>FGC12834> PF4876>L829	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	T1a
R1547	J1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Z1884>Y2919>Y60 94	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	K1a7
R1549	J1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z2331>Y15152>ZS4336 (xZS4312,Y154827)	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	U5b2b3
R128	J1a	0-400 CE	Z1828>Z1842>Y4423 (xZS3042,BY100,CTS1460a,Y83506)	Imperial Rome	Casale del dolce	HV+16311
R130	J1a	300-500 CE	P58>Y4067>L817>pre-L818	Late Antiquity	Marcellino & Pietro	H107
R835	J1a	27 BCE-300 CE	Z2331>Z2324>Z2317>Z2313>YSC0000234>Y3081	Imperial Rome	Civitanova Marche	H2a5
R34	J2a	300-700 CE	PF5008>L581*	Late Antiquity	Mausoleo di Augusto	H+195+146
R117	J2a	400-600 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319	Late Antiquity	San Ercolano	T2b
R19	J2a	5345-5221 BCE	M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842*	Neolithic	Ripabianca di Monterado	U5b3a1
R68	J2a1a	100-300 CE	L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534	Imperial Rome	Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada	U7a4a1a
R1551	J2a1a	55-211 CE	M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	H
R1550	J2a1a	27 BCE-300 CE	M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264*	Imperial Rome	Monterotondo	T2c1c
R969	J2a1a	1600-1700 CE	M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394	Renaissance	Tivoli Palazzo Cianti	U5b
R115	J2a1a	0-200 CE	M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672*	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	U4
R44	J2a1a	1-400 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467 >S11842>Z6271	Imperial Rome	Isola Sacra	T2
R76	J2a1a	0-200 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649*	Imperial Rome	Viale Rossini, Necropoli Salaria	T2c1a
R136	J2a1a	300-500 CE	L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651 >Z40772*	Late Antiquity	Marcellino & Pietro	T2d2
R1221	J2a1a	1480-1490 CE	L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147	Renaissance	Cancelleria	H1e2
R970	J2a1a	1600-1700 CE	L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z43 5*	Renaissance	Tivoli Palazzo Cianti	J1b3
R1283	J2b1	771-947 CE	M205>PF7321*	Medieval	Cancelleria	H12
R50	J2b1	135-244 CE	M205>PF7321>Y134194	Imperial Rome	Centocelle	H5
R474	J2b2a	700-600 BCE	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240> CTS6190	Etruscan_IA	Civitavecchia	H
R116	J2b2a	0-200 CE	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z12 95>Z8421>Z631	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	U3a2
R54	J2b2a	1280-1430 CE	M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27 522>Y23094*	Medieval	Villa Magna	H4a1
R113	E1b1b	0-200 CE	V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y28 62>BY8432>pre-BY8536	Imperial Rome	Via Paisiello, Necropoli Salaria	H26a1
R59	E1b1b	820-990 CE	V12>Y2863>CTS693>Y6730>FGC7703>CTS1239>CTS6667>Y21 919>Y21918*	Medieval	Villa Magna	N1b1a
R107	E1b1b	400-600 CE	V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>L241>Z 38770*	Late Antiquity	Crypta Balbi	T2h
R1219	E1b1b	1417-1463 CE	V13>Z1057>CTS1273	Renaissance	Cancelleria	H11a
R53	E1b1b	1280-1430 CE	L19>PF2431>Z21068>PF2438>Y10541>Y10561>pre-FGC19010	Medieval	Villa Magna	U2e1c1
R850	T1a1a	800-500 BCE	L162>L208*	Latin_IA	Ardea	T2c1f
R1543	T1a1a	1-400 CE	L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709>Y9109>Y18004 *	Imperial Rome	Mazzano Romano	H1e
R120	T1a2b	400-600 CE	L131>Y6033>pre-FGC23008	Late Antiquity	San Ercolano	I1c
R1014	H	3500-2500 BCE	P96*	Chalcolithic (Rinaldone Gaudo)	Monte San Biagio	N1a1a1a3
R118	H2	400-600 CE	P96>Y21618>Y19962>Y20838>Y20839>Y21598	Late Antiquity	San Ercolano	H1e1a
R1285	C1a2	974-1035 CE	V20>V86>V182>V222	Medieval	Cancelleria	T2c1a

Interesting, so R437 is U152

R437 R1b 400-200 BCE U152>L2>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365 Latin_IA (Prenestini Tribe) Palestrina Selciata H10

[kingjohn]

Mtdna H10 was found in alemanni tribe remains in germany ������
interesting that this latin dude carry it������

p.s
by the way a little update
in my true ancestry total genetic similarity
shortest distance
https://i.imgur.com/lZTyglQ.png

P.S
so i guess western jews which acquired a lot of southern european blood
cluster with some of these imperial romans
mainly the ones in -cluster C5 from the paper
i am not surprised by my results of total austosomaly

[[email protected]]

You're an American; more specifically a mix of the second wave of immigrants that came over in the 20 century. I think that would be a viable cultural identity. You were born in the American Century (post-WWII 20th century) a time when the United States reached the zenith of power and prestige; truly becoming a new Roman empire.

But also, there's quite a lot of Irish/Italians; almost every Italian-American I know is either marrying an Irish person, or is partly Irish. They can pretty much be an ethnicity on to themselves, imo

Jewish people I know tend to stay with each other. But they will also consort and sometimes marry other groups primarily from the second wave of working-class immigrants.

This, I suppose, is my problem making sense of autosomal DNA results. Pieces of my family have been in America since the 17th century, and since then they've been mixing with other immigrants from most every nation in Europe. All my DNA results show is that I'm related to everyone, though with a shading towards northwest Europe.

[Joey37]

My father wishes we were G2a, good farmer lines, one thing we have in common is the desire to emulate our maternal grandfathers; his being a first generation Sicilian-American cattle rancher in southern California and mine being a New England Yankee of 100% Colonial English stock, descended from Samuel Gorton and Anne Hutchinson and a direct male-line descendant of the last man in England to be burned to death for his religious beliefs, very Anglophile and a history buff. So my dad has a nice little farm in eastern Connecticut, with chickens and cows (my niece loves the cows, which I call her 'beef puppies') while I research the family tree and absorb myself in historical minutiae. I told my father that we, being R1a, are steppe invaders, not peaceful farmers, although I do have farmer mtdna and he may have it as well.

[[email protected]]

My father wishes we were G2a, good farmer lines, one thing we have in common is the desire to emulate our maternal grandfathers; his being a first generation Sicilian-American cattle rancher in southern California and mine being a New England Yankee of 100% Colonial English stock, descended from Samuel Gorton and Anne Hutchinson and a direct male-line descendant of the last man in England to be burned to death for his religious beliefs, very Anglophile and a history buff. So my dad has a nice little farm in eastern Connecticut, with chickens and cows (my niece loves the cows, which I call her 'beef puppies') while I research the family tree and absorb myself in historical minutiae. I told my father that we, being R1a, are steppe invaders, not peaceful farmers, although I do have farmer mtdna and he may have it as well.

Well, my paternal line is G2a and they were good farmers, coming from Yorkshire c1686, and moving through west Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia and on into Iowa. My father was the last farm boy. My mother's line is also descended from Neolithic farmers, K1a4h, from Holstein, Germany, but later, in the early 1850's.

Both Y-DNA and mtDNA are easy to understand and somehow satisfying because you can tie them to identifiable individuals.

[Tutkun Arnaut]

And your point is?



Something wrong with yDna J2, whether J2b or J2a?

If one could make accurate predictions from maps of modern frequencies it looks to me like either an arrival through Greece and the area around Albania or directly from places like Crete, Cyprus, or Asia Minor. They might have gone directly to Rome or after some hundreds of years in Southern Italy.

My question was whether you have any pertinent information of where those subclades each are most frequent and when they might have arrived, i.e. the dating. For example, how about Crete? The Peloponnesus? Coastal Anatolia?

That's what we're trying to do, yes? Figure out how all of the migrations which make up Europeans occurred?

I saw another map where Western Turkey, around Bosporus channel, Asian side, has autosomal similar with Italians. This creates the impression that people from this area migrated to Italy through sea ways, not necessary through Greece, but circumventing it. That's entirely possible since those people were navigating keeping the land in their sight, not necessary stellar navigation. That could be the source of Italian J///