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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Anthrogenica is a garbage dump of lies. There is no shortage of stupidity in the world, and anthrogenica is a shining example of that. The only place with a lower-average IQ must be on Eurogenes.

    Now let's get back on topic. We don't have to be concerned with insignificant actors, trying to obfuscate the facts.
    Indeed. Let's do the analysis! :)


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    Not to mention all of the Anatolian BA found in Iberia. By the time the Romans colonized Iberia, it must have been transformed genetically, partly by these Latins who can be modeled as half ABA-like, like 850.


    We assembled genome-wide data from 271 ancient Iberians, of whom 176 are from the largely unsampled period after 2000 BCE, thereby providing a high-resolution time transect of the Iberian Peninsula. We document high genetic substructure between northwestern and southeastern hunter-gatherers before the spread of farming. We reveal sporadic contacts between Iberia and North Africa by ~2500 BCE and, by ~2000 BCE, the replacement of 40% of Iberia’s ancestry and nearly 100% of its Y-chromosomes by people with Steppe ancestry. We show that, in the Iron Age, Steppe ancestry had spread not only into Indo-European–speaking regions but also into non-Indo-European–speaking ones, and we reveal that present-day Basques are best described as a typical Iron Age population without the admixture events that later affected the rest of Iberia. Additionally, we document how, beginning at least in the Roman period, the ancestry of the peninsula was transformed by gene flow from North Africa and the eastern Mediterranean.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte.../1230.abstract

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    bronze age levant ancestry
    detected in south east iberia

    start coming in roman period

    https://i.imgur.com/XM0bknp.png

    source : the ancient iberia paper
    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte..._Olalde_SM.pdf

    p.s
    maybe romans ? or Phoenicians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    bronze age levant ancestry
    detected in south east iberia

    start coming in roman period

    https://i.imgur.com/XM0bknp.png

    source : the ancient iberia paper
    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte..._Olalde_SM.pdf

    p.s
    maybe romans ? or Phoenicians?
    Latins (including 850, and 437) did not have Bronze-Age Levantine admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Latins (including 850, and 437) did not have Bronze-Age Levantine admixture.
    i know
    this is for davidski
    if he read it
    since angela said he is obsessed with levant :)
    just to show that levant ancestry started in roman period in south east iberia .....

    p.s
    i understand that near eastern ancestry in the outlier latins is not levant bronze age but Anatolian bronze age which is different

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    As a person whose E-V13 ydna comes from Trevi nel Lazio, I'd like to know how such dna arrived in such a small town, in the mountains. We thought E-V13 arrived in Italy with bell beakers, but the first E-V13 samples are from imperial age.

    Did southern people migrate from Magna Graecia to small towns in Lazio too? Or is it more likely that such small towns were populated after Rome got sacked by fleeing people, or something similar

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i know
    this is for davidski
    if he read it
    since angela said he is obsessed with levant :)
    just to show that levant ancestry started in roman period in south east iberia .....

    p.s
    i understand that near eastern ancestry in the outlier latins is not levant bronze age but Anatolian bronze age which is different
    I heard you the first time, but didn't think it worthwhile responding.

    If it is indeed there, I don't know why, with all the Carthaginians around, it would need to have been brought by Romans.

    Carthaginian Spain before the First Punic War.



    Then, of course, we have all the Greek influence along the Mediterranean coast. Wasn't the Empuries sample very Mycenaean like?

    I'm sure somebody could figure out a way to make him part Levant Bronze Age. :)



    Plus, my husband, who is very Southern Italian indeed, and extremely proud of it, gets ONE match on mta with someone from Spain. I'm the one with half my matches still coming from Spain, even with all these new Italian samples, which indicates to me that maybe a lot of them came from Rome north. Perhaps Southern Italians would have been closer to and more inclined to go to Greece, the Balkans etc.

    Indeed, the first legions that went to Spain were the following. You should know that after serving their time, legionnaires were given land. A lot of them do seem to have liked Spain, though not precisely "Southeast" Spain from what I can see.




    The Victris or “Victorious Sixth Legion” and its "twin" "Ferrata Legion) were founded by the general Octavian (who later went on to become Emperor Augustus). They were recruited in Cisalpine Italy. Those are my stomping grounds. :)

    "The Victrix then went on to assist Augustus in his war against the Cantabrians that continued for almost 10 years starting in 29 BC. By 19 BC, imperial Rome had conquered the whole of Hispania, and the Iberian peninsula was also now under Roman rule. The legion was then stationed in freshly conquered contemporary Spain where it stayed for nearly a century. During this time, the city of Legio was founded (known as Leon in the present day)."

    The Legio IX Hispana, which also served in Spain, was already formed before the Empire, fighting as early as the Social Wars, so I would think mostly "Italic", although perhaps with a bit of more "southern" influence.

    The Legio Germanica served in Spain. The troops were from the Italian peninsula. It's unclear where precisely the troops were recruited, but I'm sure some from Cisalpine Gaul were included. The same is true of the Augusta, formed in 26 BC.

    So, it escapes me why these troops, formed so early on any part of the Italian peninsula from free citizens, would be awash with Levantine ancestry.


    Some more "creative" modeling, I guess. :) Does it ever occur to some people to check the history and context before doing the "modeling"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faunus View Post
    As a person whose E-V13 ydna comes from Trevi nel Lazio, I'd like to know how such dna arrived in such a small town, in the mountains. We thought E-V13 arrived in Italy with bell beakers, but the first E-V13 samples are from imperial age.

    Did southern people migrate from Magna Graecia to small towns in Lazio too? Or is it more likely that such small towns were populated after Rome got sacked by fleeing people, or something similar

    E-V13 exists everywhere in Italy, even in northern Italy. We need more ancient samples analyzed to draw conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I heard you the first time, but didn't think it worthwhile responding.

    If it is indeed there, I don't know why, with all the Carthaginians around, it would need to have been brought by Romans.

    Carthaginian Spain before the First Punic War.



    Then, of course, we have all the Greek influence along the Mediterranean coast. Wasn't the Empuries sample very Mycenaean like?

    I'm sure somebody could figure out a way to make him part Levant Bronze Age
    . :)



    Plus, my husband, who is very Southern Italian indeed, and extremely proud of it, gets ONE match on mta with someone from Spain. I'm the one with half my matches still coming from Spain, even with all these new Italian samples, which indicates to me that maybe a lot of them came from Rome north. Perhaps Southern Italians would have been closer to and more inclined to go to Greece, the Balkans etc.

    Indeed, the first legions that went to Spain were the following. You should know that after serving their time, legionnaires were given land. A lot of them do seem to have liked Spain, though not precisely "Southeast" Spain from what I can see.




    The Victris or “Victorious Sixth Legion” and its "twin" "Ferrata Legion) were founded by the general Octavian (who later went on to become Emperor Augustus). They were recruited in Cisalpine Italy. Those are my stomping grounds. :)

    "The Victrix then went on to assist Augustus in his war against the Cantabrians that continued for almost 10 years starting in 29 BC. By 19 BC, imperial Rome had conquered the whole of Hispania, and the Iberian peninsula was also now under Roman rule. The legion was then stationed in freshly conquered contemporary Spain where it stayed for nearly a century. During this time, the city of Legio was founded (known as Leon in the present day)."

    The Legio IX Hispana, which also served in Spain, was already formed before the Empire, fighting as early as the Social Wars, so I would think mostly "Italic", although perhaps with a bit of more "southern" influence.

    The Legio Germanica served in Spain. The troops were from the Italian peninsula. It's unclear where precisely the troops were recruited, but I'm sure some from Cisalpine Gaul were included. The same is true of the Augusta, formed in 26 BC.

    So, it escapes me why these troops, formed so early on any part of the Italian peninsula from free citizens, would be awash with Levantine ancestry.


    Some more "creative" modeling, I guess. :) Does it ever occur to some people to check the history and context before doing the "modeling"?

    but what i posted is from the paper
    not calculation by davidski
    have little faith angela ....... :)

    have a look

    https://i.imgur.com/hGkJRjB.png

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    In the municipal district of Ubrique there are vestiges of the Roman road, from the 1st century BC, which linked Lacilbula (Grazalema), Ocuri (Ubrique), Iptuci (Prado del Rey) and Acinipo (Ronda la Vieja).

    Legio X Equestris military camp



    There was no other image.


    Founding

    The Tenth was created in Hispania by César in 61 a. C

    When Gaius Julius Caesar arrived as Governor in the province of Baetica or Hispania Ulterior (modern Andalusia), as it was in 61 BC, he immediately decided to subdue the west and northwest areas (modern day Portugal). He already had two legions based in the province, the 8th and 9th Legions, which had been enlisted by Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey the Great) in 65 BC. Caesar needed a third legion for his planned campaign and so he immediately enlisted a new legion, the 10th Legion. Enlisted in March, the legion took as its emblem the bull,[4] an emblem which proved popular with other legions such as Legio V Alaudae (Larks), Legio XI, Legio XII Victrix, and Legio XIII Gemina.
    The campaign in the summer of 61 BC was very successful and the 10th Legion showed itself to be brave and loyal to Julius Caesar.

    Legio X saved the day in the battle of the Sabis in 57 a. C. Together with the IX Hispanic, the Tenth defeated the ababates, moved back against the Belgians on the other side of the river and captured the enemy camp. From that position, the Tenth could see how desperate the situation was for the XII Victrix as well as the VII. So they quickly loaded down the hill, crossed the river and attacked the nerves from behind, trapping them so that there was little hope of survival.

    In 45 a. C. the legion was licensed, and veterans obtained land in Narbonne, southern Gaul.

    The Tenth was formed in Hispania, what is known today by Andalusia, but neither English or Spanish wikipedia makes it clear that it was native, it is understood, but they do not say it clearly. Does anyone know more exactly?

    If so, I see that a tactic or modus operandis perhaps for security was to retire in other lands, not in those of origin, so it would have been a great mechanism of genetic exchange in Europe or the colonies without it having been a long-term risk for the Empire itself.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    In the municipal district of Ubrique there are vestiges of the Roman road, from the 1st century BC, which linked Lacilbula (Grazalema), Ocuri (Ubrique), Iptuci (Prado del Rey) and Acinipo (Ronda la Vieja).

    Legio X Equestris military camp



    There was no other image.


    Founding

    The Tenth was created in Hispania by César in 61 a. C

    When Gaius Julius Caesar arrived as Governor in the province of Baetica or Hispania Ulterior (modern Andalusia), as it was in 61 BC, he immediately decided to subdue the west and northwest areas (modern day Portugal). He already had two legions based in the province, the 8th and 9th Legions, which had been enlisted by Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey the Great) in 65 BC. Caesar needed a third legion for his planned campaign and so he immediately enlisted a new legion, the 10th Legion. Enlisted in March, the legion took as its emblem the bull,[4] an emblem which proved popular with other legions such as Legio V Alaudae (Larks), Legio XI, Legio XII Victrix, and Legio XIII Gemina.
    The campaign in the summer of 61 BC was very successful and the 10th Legion showed itself to be brave and loyal to Julius Caesar.

    Legio X saved the day in the battle of the Sabis in 57 a. C. Together with the IX Hispanic, the Tenth defeated the ababates, moved back against the Belgians on the other side of the river and captured the enemy camp. From that position, the Tenth could see how desperate the situation was for the XII Victrix as well as the VII. So they quickly loaded down the hill, crossed the river and attacked the nerves from behind, trapping them so that there was little hope of survival.

    In 45 a. C. the legion was licensed, and veterans obtained land in Narbonne, southern Gaul.

    The Tenth was formed in Hispania, what is known today by Andalusia, but neither English or Spanish wikipedia makes it clear that it was native, it is understood, but they do not say it clearly. Does anyone know more exactly?

    If so, I see that a tactic or modus operandis perhaps for security was to retire in other lands, not in those of origin, so it would have been a great mechanism of genetic exchange in Europe or the colonies without it having been a long-term risk for the Empire itself.


    I've never been able to find anything on where he raised the troops for the Legio Equestris. From what I can tell, he didn't trust certain of his Gallic allies. Whether it was formed partly from Spaniards, partly from other Gallic troops, or from his other favorites, the Cisalpine Italians, or a combination of all three I don't know. I would think there would have been some Spaniards definitely, as he made allies there.

    A great legion, without question. I've read it was his favorite legion.

    It's difficult to know from the naming. For example, The Legio Germanica was all Italian, but named for its victories in Germania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    but what i posted is from the paper
    not calculation by davidski
    have little faith angela ....... :)

    have a look

    https://i.imgur.com/hGkJRjB.png
    You're making quite a leap there which is not at all supported by the facts.

    Yes, there's a bit of Levant there. So what?

    There was African y and mtDna (by way of North Africa) in Iberia before the Romans arrived, which would have contained some Levant like ancestry and some arrived after as well.

    Where does it say it came from Roman legionnaires and settlers from Italy? Most particularly, how could people from Cisalpine Italy or around Rome have brought it, since most of them would have been attached to the legions and they didn't have Levantines in those legions. Where's the EVIDENCE for that?

    What we have are samples found in Spain at certain periods. They're not labeled 100% Roman legionnaire or settler. The ancestry could come from various groups and eras and filtered down.

    For crying out loud, didn't you read my post? Southeast Iberia in the Classical Age is Carthaginian territory, and partly Greek territory, and it's right across the strait from Morocco. I'd have to check it but mounted troops from North Africa did serve there for a time, as well as in Britain. I'd have to check it.

    Now, some of it could have come from later settlers from all over the Roman world. Who says it all or even mostly came from the Italian peninsula?

    That conclusion is YOURS, not the paper's.

    You're going to have to do a lot better than that, Azzurro or Sickeliot or whoever you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're making quite a leap there which is not at all supported by the facts.

    Yes, there's a bit of Levant there. So what?

    There was African y and mtDna (by way of North Africa) in Iberia before the Romans arrived, which would have contained some Levant like ancestry and some arrived after as well.

    Where does it say it came from Roman legionnaires and settlers from Italy? Most particularly, how could people from Cisalpine Italy or around Rome have brought it, since most of them would have been attached to the legions and they didn't have Levantines in those legions. Where's the EVIDENCE for that?

    What we have are samples found in Spain at certain periods. They're not labeled 100% Roman legionnaire or settler. The ancestry could come from various groups and eras and filtered down.

    For crying out loud, didn't you read my post? Southeast Iberia in the Classical Age is Carthaginian territory, and partly Greek territory, and it's right across the strait from Morocco. I'd have to check it but mounted troops from North Africa did serve there for a time, as well as in Britain. I'd have to check it.

    Now, some of it could have come from later settlers from all over the Roman world. Who says it all or even mostly came from the Italian peninsula?

    That conclusion is YOURS, not the paper's.

    You're going to have to do a lot better than that, Azzurro or Sickeliot or whoever you are.

    lol
    i never said he was a a roman
    i only assumed and some of the roman auxiliaries were in fact syrian units
    the romans were not such a great archers
    and they used syrians as archers in many of there campaigns against barbarian tribes
    the last thing you said is so funny i can't breath from laugh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    One of the amusing things about the graphic is that Sicilians get less than Spaniards (or North Italians). Do you remember the unlamented Spanish Stormfront Nordicists from a few years ago who used to post here? Oh dear. :)

    This may be related to Neolithic gene flows into Europe.
    why Albanians dont have mbuti?
    we are suppose to be similar with Greeks and south Italians
    or the data are not that accurate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    why Albanians dont have mbuti?
    we are suppose to be similar with Greeks and south Italians
    or the data are not that accurate?
    Indeed you are, and to Tuscans to some extent; all the genetic analyses agree with that.

    Isolated populations experience drift, with some minority alleles or slivers of ancestry drifting out of the gene pool. I think that's probably the most likely explanation.

    It makes sense that it's something to do with Basal Eurasian. It's just too old for the calculators. They can't compare it to anything except a very old lineage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    lol
    i never said he was a a roman
    i only assumed and some of the roman auxiliaries were in fact syrian units
    the romans were not such a great archers
    and they used syrians as archers in many of there campaigns against barbarian tribes
    the last thing you said is so funny i can't breath from laugh
    Anyone who "assumes" that Levantine ancestry only started arriving in Iberia after the Romans took over doesn't know very much about Iberia's history.

    As I said, perhaps you should re-read my post.

    There are at least two, no three, groups with which it could have arrived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    By the way, is there any proof of a mass migration from the Levant into Italy during the Iron Age? Or is it that many lede cannot but think that all the northern samples were northerner übermenschen whereas the samples who cluster with southern italians were just the result of miscegenation of the former and pesky semites that flocked into Italy, if not pesky semites themselves?

    This paper doesn't state there was a mass migration from the Levant into Italy during the Iron Age.

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    This is how the paper models 850. It seems that some people are more into the hobby of propaganda, instead of reading and discussing facts from the actual source material:


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    At this point in the movie someone can make an accurate, concise and quasi-schematic description of how the thing is or only Manciamo knows how to do it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Here is situation within G2a:


    G2a2a 5607-5485 BCE G-Z42565 PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z42565 Neolithic
    G2a2a 1070-1150 CE G-Z6228 PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval
    G2a2a 1280-1430 CE G-Z6228 PF3147>PF3148>PF3177>L91>Z6484>Z6128>PF3239>Z6802> Z6228 Medieval
    G2a2b 3500-900 BCE G-PF3378 PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>PF3378 Chalcolithic/BA
    G2a2b 2950-2880 BCE pre-G-F807 PF3359>F1193>PF3369>F872>F2572>F2214>pre-F807 Chalcolithic
    G2a2b 0-200 CE G-L14* Z45043- FGC5185- M406>M3317>FGC5089>FGC5081>L14* Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 232-333 CE G-S9591 M406>M3317>PF3293>PF3316>Z6029>S9591 Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 100-300 CE G-P303 P303* Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 300-700 CE G-L140 PF3346- (Z31254- Z31256- Z31258-) P303>L140* Late Antiquity
    G2a2b 136-326 CE G-Z6434* (Z3571- FGC295- Z6993- Z6994- Z6996-) CTS342>Z724>Z1903>CTS7045>Z3408>Z3428>YP4752>Z6434 Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 1-400 CE pre-G-Z6764 U1>L13>Z2022>Z6759>pre-Z6764 Imperial Rome
    G2a2b 400-600 CE G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765- L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Late Antiquity
    G2a2b 1280-1430 CE G-S2808 S23438- Y31000- S18765- L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808 Medieval
    G2a2b 1480-1490 CE G-S18765 L497>Z1815>Y7538>Z1816>Z1823>Z726>CTS4803>S2808>S2 3438>S18765 Renaissance
    Hi Dema -- Thanks for the G2a info. A few remarks.

    First, I am surprised to see the U1 branch represented in Rome (circa 1-400 CE). Although Pip was banned, I found his discussion of the L140 lines very persuasive, with U1 lines heading east from Cuceteni Tripolye, and L497 and CTS342 heading west into Central Europe and Italy.

    Second, it looks like the early G2a2a lines, associated with Otzi, were thoroughly eclipsed by G2a2b lines (with due allowance for small number of samples).

    Third, I am also surprised to see two M-406 individuals in the Imperial period, but no L497 or CTS342 (again, perhaps this reflects small number of samples?). According to Pip, both L497 and CTS342 expanded in conjunction with R1b-U152, and therefore should have been present at the founding of Rome, well before Imperial times. However, it is worth noting that the Olalde study from earlier this year partially contradicts Pip's account, as CTS342>Z1903 individuals were found in both Southern Spain and Western Sicily with no signs of Steppe admixture, circa 1500 to 1000 BCE. Therefore, it seems possible that CTS342 took path from Balkans to Spain to Sicily to Southern Italy, and only appeared in Rome in Imperial times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    Hi Dema -- Thanks for the G2a info. A few remarks.

    First, I am surprised to see the U1 branch represented in Rome (circa 1-400 CE). Although Pip was banned, I found his discussion of the L140 lines very persuasive, with U1 lines heading east from Cuceteni Tripolye, and L497 and CTS342 heading west into Central Europe and Italy.

    Second, it looks like the early G2a2a lines, associated with Otzi, were thoroughly eclipsed by G2a2b lines (with due allowance for small number of samples).

    Third, I am also surprised to see two M-406 individuals in the Imperial period, but no L497 or CTS342 (again, perhaps this reflects small number of samples?). According to Pip, both L497 and CTS342 expanded in conjunction with R1b-U152, and therefore should have been present at the founding of Rome, well before Imperial times. However, it is worth noting that the Olalde study from earlier this year partially contradicts Pip's account, as CTS342>Z1903 individuals were found in both Southern Spain and Western Sicily with no signs of Steppe admixture, circa 1500 to 1000 BCE. Therefore, it seems possible that CTS342 took path from Balkans to Spain to Sicily to Southern Italy, and only appeared in Rome in Imperial times.
    Good information, thanks. As to the first speculation, that may indeed me the case.

    As to the second, is it possible that some got picked up later in the Balkans or perhaps, say, Hungary?

    With autosomal dna you need far fewer samples to come to reasonable conclusions than with uniparentals, given all the sub-lineages.

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    I paid for access to the paper, and I'm going over it with a fine-tooth comb. Interestingly, the authors suggest that it is plausible that rather than additional source population of CHG/IN; Neolthic Italian Farmers could be from a different source population different from Central European, and Iberian farmers. Rather, they may have come directly from Central Anatolia, or Northern Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    But also, there's quite a lot of Irish/Italians; almost every Italian-American I know is either marrying an Irish person, or is partly Irish. They can pretty much be an ethnicity on to themselves, imo
    ha ha, guilty as charged ---> somehow the latest Ancestry.com results have me as more Irish (42%) than Italian (38%, plus another 8% Greece & Balkans). I should be a quarter English, but somehow only got 6%. And mysteriously I am now suddenly 5% French, which I believe is perhaps better understood as Western Mediterranean ancestry, supporting my growing sense that G2a-CTS342 moved to Spain before heading back east to Italy via Sicily and Sardinia. Ahem, not that it is any way scientific to extrapolate from one's own narrow experience

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I paid for access to the paper, and I'm going over it with a fine-tooth comb. Interestingly, the authors suggest that it is plausible that rather than additional source population of CHG/IN; Neolthic Italian Farmers could be from a different source population different from Central European, and Iberian farmers. Rather, they may have come directly from Central Anatolia, or Northern Greece.
    Yes, but it decreases in the Copper Age, so I don't know how much would have survived in Northern/Central Italy. (I don't recall them saying it was all from the Neolithic, but maybe I missed it somehow. I'll go back over the paper.) It might be different in Southern Italy, of course, which is why, as you know so well, we so desperately need Bronze and Iron Age samples from there.

    Then, the levels increase in Southern Italy, so I doubt the Neolithic could be responsible for it all. The question is, when did it arrive, yes? Did some arrive in the Copper Age, in the Bronze Age, in the Iron Age, In the days of the Republic and Empire, all, or just some, and what was the ydna like at each time? I can't imagine that there wasn't a boost at least in the Iron Age from Greek migration. Modern mainland Greeks may be slightly different, but ancient Greeks must have been pretty Mycenaean like going by the Empuries sample.

    What we do know is that the Hellenthal group and the usual suspects were completely wrong about it arriving during the Post Imperial Age with some supposed mass migration from Byzantine areas.

    Amazing, isn't it, how not only the amateurs, but even some of the scholars who buy into cliches have gotten it wrong?

    Btw, if you join the magazine, which is free, you get access to certain papers without having to pay for them. It took me a long while to figure it out. :)

    As to your post 443, that will be the second or third time that material was quoted to them. I guess if they don't want to acknowledge what it says in black and white, they just won't. Maybe I'm wrong that combatting nonsense with facts works.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're making quite a leap there which is not at all supported by the facts.

    Yes, there's a bit of Levant there. So what?

    There was African y and mtDna (by way of North Africa) in Iberia before the Romans arrived, which would have contained some Levant like ancestry and some arrived after as well.

    Where does it say it came from Roman legionnaires and settlers from Italy? Most particularly, how could people from Cisalpine Italy or around Rome have brought it, since most of them would have been attached to the legions and they didn't have Levantines in those legions. Where's the EVIDENCE for that?

    What we have are samples found in Spain at certain periods. They're not labeled 100% Roman legionnaire or settler. The ancestry could come from various groups and eras and filtered down.

    For crying out loud, didn't you read my post? Southeast Iberia in the Classical Age is Carthaginian territory, and partly Greek territory, and it's right across the strait from Morocco. I'd have to check it but mounted troops from North Africa did serve there for a time, as well as in Britain. I'd have to check it.

    Now, some of it could have come from later settlers from all over the Roman world. Who says it all or even mostly came from the Italian peninsula?

    That conclusion is YOURS, not the paper's.

    You're going to have to do a lot better than that, Azzurro or Sickeliot or whoever you are.
    @KingJohn,

    I can't seem to find the post where you accused me of having a problem with Italians or Southern Europeans in general having Levante like/Semitic ancestry, and I don't want to let that go unanswered, so I'll put it here, which is what led to your comment.

    For the record, as I've alluded to before, and yes, I know it's a cliche or an excuse some times, but most of my best friends and my husband's partner and best friends are Jews. I nursed my best friend, Ruth, who died of breast cancer way too early, through the last grueling and horrific six months of her life and was there when she passed. Her absence is a loss, a whole in my heart which I feel every day of my life. No family member could have been closer. That someone could accuse me of disrespecting her ancestry is like someone stabbing me in the heart.

    I have no problem with some Levant ancestry having entered the Italian gene pool. I'm sure some did. If my husband doesn't have at least a bit I'd be surprised.
    ri
    What I object to is Anti-Semites and anti-Levant, or even actual people from the Levant trying to find it in Italians where it doesn't exist, or exaggerating the amount of it where it does for their own psychiatric or racist reasons. The same goes for North African ancestry.

    I also, as anyone who frequents this board should know, detest deceit, cheating, fraud, call it what you will. It's one the reasons for my choice of profession. I'll expose it on any topic wherever I can.

    Period.

    That's the last I'll say on the subject.
    Last edited by Angela; 19-11-19 at 22:01.

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