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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, but it decreases in the Copper Age, so I don't know how much would have survived in Northern/Central Italy. (I don't recall them saying it was all from the Neolithic, but maybe I missed it somehow. I'll go back over the paper.) It might be different in Southern Italy, of course, which is why, as you know so well, we so desperately need Bronze and Iron Age samples from there.

    Then, the levels increase in Southern Italy, so I doubt the Neolithic could be responsible for it all. The question is, when did it arrive, yes? Did some arrive in the Copper Age, in the Bronze Age, in the Iron Age, In the days of the Republic and Empire, all, or just some, and what was the ydna like at each time? I can't imagine that there wasn't a boost at least in the Iron Age from Greek migration. Modern mainland Greeks may be slightly different, but ancient Greeks must have been pretty Mycenaean like going by the Empuries sample.

    What we do know is that the Hellenthal group and the usual suspects were completely wrong about it arriving during the Post Imperial Age with some supposed mass migration from Byzantine areas.

    Amazing, isn't it, how not only the amateurs, but even some of the scholars who buy into cliches have gotten it wrong?

    Btw, if you join the magazine, which is free, you get access to certain papers without having to pay for them. It took me a long while to figure it out. :)

    As to your post 443, that will be the second or third time that material was quoted to them. I guess if they don't want to acknowledge what it says in black and white, they just won't. Maybe I'm wrong that combatting nonsense with facts works.
    Facts can be inconvenient. But also, I don't think they can perform the mental gymnastics to understand, anyway. Maybe they should get a new hobby, perhaps working at a Heaven's Gate-style cult would better suit the mentality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Interestingly, the authors suggest that it is plausible that rather than additional source population of CHG/IN; Neolthic Italian Farmers could be from a different source population different from Central European, and Iberian farmers. Rather, they may have come directly from Central Anatolia, or Northern Greece.
    Jovialis, could you elaborate on this point? Or did you want to go over Moots with a fine-tooth comb first?

    Certainly it appears that G2a2b lines moved from Balkans during Copper Age to Western Europe (by which routes is debatable, most likely multiple routes), replacing earlier G2a2a lines in places like Italy

    So maybe G2a2a comes from different area of Anatolia than G2a2b, each division having its own autosomal make-up, with G2a2a more mixed with CHG/Iranian Neolithic (in particular J2a populations) than the G2a2b-dominated populations. G2a2a-led group then takes a more southern route into Italy, via Greece & the Islands, while G2a2b-led group initially goes up the Danube.

    Somewhat off topic, but have there been any studies of post-Neolithic Iranian populations, say from the time of Cyrus the Great?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    Jovialis, could you elaborate on this point? Or did you want to go over Moots with a fine-tooth comb first?

    Certainly it appears that G2a2b lines moved from Balkans during Copper Age to Western Europe (by which routes is debatable, most likely multiple routes), replacing earlier G2a2a lines in places like Italy

    So maybe G2a2a comes from different area of Anatolia than G2a2b, each division having its own autosomal make-up, with G2a2a more mixed with CHG/Iranian Neolithic (in particular J2a populations) than the G2a2b-dominated populations. G2a2a-led group then takes a more southern route into Italy, via Greece & the Islands, while G2a2b-led group initially goes up the Danube.

    Somewhat off topic, but have there been any studies of post-Neolithic Iranian populations, say from the time of Cyrus the Great?
    Thus far, it doesn't say much more than that. But at Angela pointed out, there was a decrease of Iran-Neo, based on the three Central Italian Copper Age samples. As well as a resurgence of WHG, probably from Early European Farmers who retained more WHG in their own ancestry. This increase of WHG happened in many other parts of Europe around this time as well. However, I suspect that the situation was different in other parts of Italy, like in the south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    In many ways, Germany is considered the Heartland of Europe. The upcoming paper by David Reich and Isolf Lazaridis models Germans as predominately Paleolithic Caucasian, which is similar to Anatolian_Neolthic:

    So when Angela says, "this is a whole new way of looking at European ancestry" ---> the point is that Reich et al are going to look at modern European populations as different blends of six different paleolithic populations???

    If so, this seems like a long overdue move. The "Native Hunter-Gatherer versus Early European Farmer versus Steppe Conqueror" paradigm seems to have exhausted much of its explanatory power

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    So when Angela says, "this is a whole new way of looking at European ancestry" ---> the point is that Reich et al are going to look at modern European populations as different blends of six different paleolithic populations???

    If so, this seems like a long overdue move. The "Native Hunter-Gatherer versus Early European Farmer versus Steppe Conqueror" paradigm seems to have exhausted much of its explanatory power
    It also is a bit confusing, for example, in the Iron Age samples, the Steppe Eneolthic within an of itself is modeled as (60% EHG + 40% CHG/IN) and/or (50% EHG + 50% CHG/IN). That is in addition to the Iran Neo that increases, and is modeled as the separate gray component from that subsumed amount of Iran-like ancestry of Steppe Eneolthic.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It also is a bit confusing, for example, in the Iron Age samples, the Steppe Eneolthic within an of itself is modeled as (60% EHG + 40% CHG/IN) and/or (50% EHG + 50% CHG/IN). That is in addition to the Iran Neo that increases, and is modeled as the separate gray component from that subsumed amount of Iran-like ancestry of Steppe Eneolthic.



    Ergo, we do see a jump in Iran-Neo from the copper age, to the Iron age. Which is comparable, or even more than Steppe Eneolithic. However, some of these Iron Age samples plot where they do on the PCA partly due to the copper-age resurgent WHG (Probably by EEF that retained this ancestry) that was brought to the region in a time that preceded the arrival of Steppe-like ancestry.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry from the steppe is indeed included in the steppe number.

    What we're, and the paper, are talking about is a separate flow of genes ultimately from the Caucasus, which, after a certain point was mixed with Anatolian Neo, and eventually mixed with more Anatolian Neo before reaching either Greece or Italy. We now know it started in the Neolithic, but I highly doubt there weren't other flows of that or similar ancestry.

    I would be extremely surprised if some migrations high in Caucasus/Iran Neo like ancestry, emanating from the Near East, probably Asia Minor, either via Greece or both via Greece and the Balkans, and places like Crete or Cyprus, for example, didn't increase the amount of that ancestry in Italy.

    The amount in the Neolithic, about 10%, is quite a bit smaller than what is currently present in some areas, or, I would bet, than what was present in the Middle to Late first millennium, for example.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    So when Angela says, "this is a whole new way of looking at European ancestry" ---> the point is that Reich et al are going to look at modern European populations as different blends of six different paleolithic populations???

    If so, this seems like a long overdue move. The "Native Hunter-Gatherer versus Early European Farmer versus Steppe Conqueror" paradigm seems to have exhausted much of its explanatory power
    Since I said it, I'll answer, if Jovialis and you don't object. :)

    That's exactly what I think, and I agree with your conclusion.

    I had forgotten about that graphic, and I'm very glad Jovialis didn't, and posted it.

    Also, you might take a look at my post number 449.

    Maybe even 450, since that might have gotten lost too. I have no agenda here, and no biases. I'm just looking for the truth.

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    What about those Z2103s, any more info on them?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The paper states that there was "deep demographic change" in Late Antiquity; facilitated by the changing political and social situation in the Western Roman Empire (i.e. shift of capital to Constantinople, war, disease, collapse of the empire). The result was a population that was roughly 30% C7 European, 30% Eastern Mediterranean (C5), 38% Mediterranean (C6). Basically, it meant the loss of the Near eastern populations, and an expansion of C7.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lousianaboy View Post
    romans were very mixed so Southern Europe is very mixed
    Like you,,,,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lousianaboy View Post
    romans were very mixed so Southern Europe is very mixed
    @Carlos, indeed

    All of Europe is a mix of different source populations, including eastern Europe and Scandinavia.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lousianaboy View Post
    romans were very mixed so Southern Europe is very mixed
    Quote Originally Posted by Lousianaboy View Post
    war-burzum


    Please don't tell me that you believe you are 99.7% Neanderthal. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lousianaboy View Post
    lol being German/Hungarian ancestry
    What is your point? You're still from a mix of different source populations. Take a look at the admixture chart I posted; Germans, and Hungarians are no exception. As a matter of fact, Hungarians are listed among them. A large amount of LBK (Neolthic Farmers), relatively large amount of Yamnaya which is half Iranian/half EHG, a minority of WHG, and a small amount of post-bronze age nganasan-like admixture. At any rate, this thread is not about teaching the basics of human population genetics. It is for us to discuss the paper on ancient Rome. Superficial and ignorant statements like "romans were very mixed so Southern Europe is very mixed", only serves to reduce your integrity among the serious and genuine enthusiasts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lousianaboy View Post
    lol being German/Hungarian ancestry
    You could have some Roman in you, our Roman Ancestors got around ...

    Take a DNA test and find out, ... if you did, please share your results in the appropriate thread.



    Last edited by Salento; 20-11-19 at 07:54. Reason: Our Roman Ancestors ...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Is this the Italian Nordicist perspective?

    I haven't looked at each of those samples individually yet, but the majority of the Iron Age/Republican Rome Era samples are at least one third Indo-European, which makes them Southern European.

    That's not good enough for you?

    What did you expect? Scandinavians? Germans?

    Honestly, what planet do some of you internet pop gen people come from? You're not playing with a full deck.

    And one more pejorative about people from the Near East and you're history.

    The culture to which all of Europe owes so much derives from the Near East via Greece. It sure as hell didn't come from the steppe.
    You threw the facts on the table. I don't understand why some people are obsessed with northern europe or the steppe. Southern Europe and the near east are amazing on their own merits and are not behind anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ack View Post
    You threw the facts on the table. I don't understand why some people are obsessed with northern europe or the steppe. Southern Europe and the near east are amazing on their own merits and are not behind anyone.
    I couldn't agree more. That's why I get so irritated with certain posters and sites. I don't understand it.

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    Smart move taking the downvote away, now t-rolls have one less weapon in their arsenal
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Screen Shot 2019-11-16 at 3.11.35 PM.pngAncestry DNA must be obsessed with steppe, too, because THEY TOOK AWAY ALL TRACE OF MY 100% SICILIAN GREAT-GRANDFATHER! My Nana is half Sicilian, for crying out loud, her paternal grandparents were born in Palazzo Adriano! Well, schmucks, I was named after him, so you can't take that away!

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    I have spoken with Ancestry and they do not sell their kit for Spain.

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    Interestingly, the Near eastern cluster (C4) is explicitly modeled as 30%-50% North African in qpAdm. After going extinct by Late Antiquity, it is only reasonable to believe that the majority, if not all, trace-North African ancestry comes from the Moors. Not Jewish populations, who were ethnically cleansed from many parts of Italy, or fled, throughout the ages.


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    [CITAÇÃO = Angela; 590886] Não concordo mais. É por isso que fico tão irritado com certos pôsteres e sites. Eu não entendo isso.

    I'm not Italian, but I always think of Italy's cultural history as amazing in every way. I have no interest in disparaging others, but it is a fact that the cultural construction of Greeks and Italians for Europe was truly phenomenal. The fact that there is much Greek descent in southern Italy should be a source of pride, never a shame. I don't understand how anyone who claims to be proud of being 'European' can disparage the descendants of those who have been responsible for most of European cultural development for thousands of years.


    Accepting that one of Europe's largest military, cultural, and land-based empires has more genetic affinity for southern Europe and the near east must also be difficult to accept for those who find themselves more special because they are from the north. No disrespect for the north on my part, the north also has its history and importance - especially in the modern context. But it would be important to put regionalisms a bit aside and simply accept the facts as they are. Each people has had its moments of grandeur and this need not be turned into sentimental and identity disputes to the point of falling into absurd theorizing and resentment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I paid for access to the paper, and I'm going over it with a fine-tooth comb. Interestingly, the authors suggest that it is plausible that rather than additional source population of CHG/IN; Neolthic Italian Farmers could be from a different source population different from Central European, and Iberian farmers. Rather, they may have come directly from Central Anatolia, or Northern Greece.
    What I also find interesting is that they qpAdm model the Central Italian Neolithic ancestry in a two-way mixture as 5% WHG + 95% Neolithic Central Anatolian Farmer/Northern Greece Farmer. With this study as a citation:


    The genomic history of southeastern Europe

    Abstract

    Farming was first introduced to Europe in the mid-seventh millennium BC, and was associated with migrants from Anatolia who settled in the southeast before spreading throughout Europe. Here, to understand the dynamics of this process, we analysed genome-wide ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and surrounding regions between 12000 and 500 BC. We document a west–east cline of ancestry in indigenous hunter-gatherers and, in eastern Europe, the early stages in the formation of Bronze Age steppe ancestry. We show that the first farmers of northern and western Europe dispersed through southeastern Europe with limited hunter-gatherer admixture, but that some early groups in the southeast mixed extensively with hunter-gatherers without the sex-biased admixture that prevailed later in the north and west. We also show that southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between east and west after the arrival of farmers, with intermittent genetic contact with steppe populations occurring up to 2,000 years earlier than the migrations from the steppe that ultimately replaced much of the population of northern Europe.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778
    Discussed here:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...athiesen-et-al

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What I also find interesting is that they qpAdm model the Central Italian Neolithic ancestry in a two-way mixture as 5% WHG + 95% Neolithic Central Anatolian Farmer/Northern Greece Farmer. With this study as a citation:



    Discussed here:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...athiesen-et-al
    We also show that southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between east and west after the arrival of farmers, with intermittent genetic contact with steppe populations occurring up to 2,000 years earlier than the migrations from the steppe that ultimately replaced much of the population of northern Europe.

    Perhaps my paternal-lineage PF7562 has something to do with this migration.

    Last edited by Jovialis; 21-11-19 at 00:40.

  25. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    R850 Y T-L208 - mtDNA T2c1f
    R437 Y R-P312 - mtDNA H10

    R850 Y line is a “Remarkable” line, there aren't many of us, but we are everywhere :)

    R850 is a y T1a1... - I’m a y T1a2...

    Nobody shares more DNA with R850 than me (as of now), though I share even more with R437.



    Holy crap Salento, it's like R437 is your 3rd-4th cousin!

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