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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I have a question, i have a read a lot about " Amateur " tools especially going against Anthrogenica or Eurogenes. But how actually Amateurs can know whether Amateur or Professionnal Tools are Corrects? This would make them Professionnals right?

    I really hate that situation where only the " Professionnals " can be right, it makes me think to the middle-ages where only a Cleric was right on Religious matters, and his words mattered too much. What if Professionnals are wrong in their logic or the interpretation / use of their own tools? What about Bias? What about Cheating even? Can we really just blindly accept things because it's " professionnal science "? Science is right, but a Scientific is not always right nor he always says the truth or his truthfull with himself. If it was the case, all studies on a said subject would always bring the same results.

    All roads lead to Rome.
    I rather agree. Personally, I 'm an amateur for DNA. I don't think your post is against me. If I should not put any worth into "amateurs" opinions, I should not base (partly) my discussions on the tools or opinions they provide. I take some gain sometimes from things I find in Anthrogenica and Eurogenes. I say when my sources are not from scientific teams only to be honest to readers.That said, I tend as a whole to put more credit into scientific surveys even if as you say, some scientists are not always so loyal to objectivity. Sometimes too, they pass over a detail, or show disequilibrated knowledges. But as you (I suppose), I never discard any reasoning or affirmation by basing me on official status.
    Good evening.

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I have a question, i have a read a lot about " Amateur " tools especially going against Anthrogenica or Eurogenes. But how actually Amateurs can know whether Amateur or Professionnal Tools are Corrects? This would make them Professionnals right?

    I really hate that situation where only the " Professionnals " can be right, it makes me think to the middle-ages where only a Cleric was right on Religious matters, and his words mattered too much. What if Professionnals are wrong in their logic or the interpretation / use of their own tools? What about Bias? What about Cheating even? Can we really just blindly accept things because it's " professionnal science "? Science is right, but a Scientific is not always right nor he always says the truth or his truthfull with himself. If it was the case, all studies on a said subject would always bring the same results.

    All roads lead to Rome.
    There are amateurs and amateurs. No one here, especially seeing the relatively low levels of steppe in Bronze Age Balkans populations, was stupid enough to predict, one week before the paper on the Mycenaeans came out, mind you, that the Mycenaeans would be extremely steppe like, probably almost identical to Corded Ware samples. That was Eurogenes, in case you'd forgotten. Of course, once you get an inside person to leak you papers or data about samples, it cuts down your error rate.

    He also said that Corded Ware came into Europe on their fierce horses. Leaving aside that the horses were "little", there are almost no horse remains in Corded Ware. They came by wagon, probably pulled mostly by oxen.

    He said that the ancient samples would show that Caucasus/Iran Neo only entered Italy in the Roman period, not the Neolithic/Bronze Age as I had long maintained.

    His famous or "infamous" modeling showed huge amounts of "steppe" in Pakistanis and northwest Indians, indeed all Indians. That is absolutely not borne out by the samples.

    I could go on for pages. Indeed, I once said they'd fill the telephone directory of a small city. It's only gotten worse with time.

    In all these cases, this site got it right.

    You really want to talk about Anthrogenica, which accused us of Nordicism because we followed the archaeology and maintained that the Etruscans were "local", and not a migration from Anatolia in the first millennium BC? Even the academic geneticists got that wrong. Agamemnon posting a lot about the Etruscans and the Etruscan language lately? How about Sikeliot and all his socks, Sikeliot who on theapricity, along with all the other Nordicists, said it was obvious the Etruscans were dark skinned "wogs" from the Middle East? Hell, some of them had the Etruscans coming from Egypt.

    I could fill an even larger phone book with the complete nonsense they've written which has been contradicted by ancient dna.

    The reason for all these errors boils down to two things:

    1)Agenda driven analysis or even distortions of the data.

    2)Complete lack of knowledge of the history and pre-history of the Italian peninsula.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There are amateurs and amateurs. No one here, especially seeing the relatively low levels of steppe in Bronze Age Balkans populations, was stupid enough to predict, one week before the paper on the Mycenaeans came out, mind you, that the Mycenaeans would be extremely steppe like, probably almost identical to Corded Ware samples. That was Eurogenes, in case you'd forgotten. Of course, once you get an inside person to leak you papers or data about samples, it cuts down your error rate.

    He also said that Corded Ware came into Europe on their fierce horses. Leaving aside that the horses were "little", there are almost no horse remains in Corded Ware. They came by wagon, probably pulled mostly by oxen.

    He said that the ancient samples would show that Caucasus/Iran Neo only entered Italy in the Roman period, not the Neolithic/Bronze Age as I had long maintained.

    His famous or "infamous" modeling showed huge amounts of "steppe" in Pakistanis and northwest Indians, indeed all Indians. That is absolutely not borne out by the samples.

    I could go on for pages. Indeed, I once said they'd fill the telephone directory of a small city. It's only gotten worse with time.

    In all these cases, this site got it right.

    You really want to talk about Anthrogenica, which accused us of Nordicism because we followed the archaeology and maintained that the Etruscans were "local", and not a migration from Anatolia in the first millennium BC? Even the academic geneticists got that wrong. Agamemnon posting a lot about the Etruscans and the Etruscan language lately? How about Sikeliot and all his socks, Sikeliot who on theapricity, along with all the other Nordicists, said it was obvious the Etruscans were dark skinned "wogs" from the Middle East? Hell, some of them had the Etruscans coming from Egypt.

    I could fill an even larger phone book with the complete nonsense they've written which has been contradicted by ancient dna.

    The reason for all these errors boils down to two things:

    1)Agenda driven analysis or even distortions of the data.

    2)Complete lack of knowledge of the history and pre-history of the Italian peninsula.
    In the case of Davidski and is wrong predictions. I think is reputation is playing against him, a lot of scientists had their intuitions show'ed to be wrong if we think about it, but in case of Davidski, it's playing against him for people that already do not like him. As for is Steppe ancestry results in South Asians, i dont really know anything about it. Is it about modern SA populations with Steppe ancestry vs prehistoric SA populations? I have hard time to believe he invents results from scrap, this has to be matter of calculators. Like i know he use Chimp instead of M'Buti in is runs.

    And i'm not really talking about amateur Communities, obviously there is a lot of weird specimen in them, myself included. I'm just wondering what's the idea of such forum communities if in the end we only try to account on what scientists are serving us.

    If we take the recent Italian study, already there is " scandals ", Morocco_Neo Ancestry, J2b in Etruscans, Etruscans and Latins being kinda similar etc... People will try to build a story driven to themselves with it. But we dont really know anything to be honest. I think to me the most strange result of this study, is the late sample C1a2 of Middle-Age or Renaissance, so old lineage and one of the youngest of the study, sounds like a one-time scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I rather agree. Personally, I 'm an amateur for DNA. I don't think your post is against me. If I should not put any worth into "amateurs" opinions, I should not base (partly) my discussions on the tools or opinions they provide. I take some gain sometimes from things I find in Anthrogenica and Eurogenes. I say when my sources are not from scientific teams only to be honest to readers.That said, I tend as a whole to put more credit into scientific surveys even if as you say, some scientists are not always so loyal to objectivity. Sometimes too, they pass over a detail, or show disequilibrated knowledges. But as you (I suppose), I never discard any reasoning or affirmation by basing me on official status.
    Good evening.
    I believe most scientists have hard-driven bias to be honest. They are hiding them by omission, but each time a hot study about their bias is released, it's like the waking of the dragon, and the behavior and words used are different than in general. In general i try to omit details of studies especially % of ancestry of the samples, because they can be modeled and interpreted in many ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    In the case of Davidski and is wrong predictions. I think is reputation is playing against him, a lot of scientists had their intuitions show'ed to be wrong if we think about it, but in case of Davidski, it's playing against him for people that already do not like him. As for is Steppe ancestry results in South Asians, i dont really know anything about it. Is it about modern SA populations with Steppe ancestry vs prehistoric SA populations? I have hard time to believe he invents results from scrap, this has to be matter of calculators. Like i know he use Chimp instead of M'Buti in is runs.

    And i'm not really talking about amateur Communities, obviously there is a lot of weird specimen in them, myself included. I'm just wondering what's the idea of such forum communities if in the end we only try to account on what scientists are serving us.

    If we take the recent Italian study, already there is " scandals ", Morocco_Neo Ancestry, J2b in Etruscans, Etruscans and Latins being kinda similar etc... People will try to build a story driven to themselves with it. But we dont really know anything to be honest. I think to me the most strange result of this study, is the late sample C1a2 of Middle-Age or Renaissance, so old lineage and one of the youngest of the study, sounds like a one-time scenario.
    Not all Latins:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    My distance of affinity to 850, and 437 is comparable to my affinity to the Myceneans. From what I've seen from other users, for these samples, this is relatively close:

    34. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 14.52 - I9041 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    35. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 14.54 - I9033 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    43. Mycenaean (1350 BC) ..... 15.26 - I9006 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    45. Latin Prenestini Tribe Inland PS (300 BC) ..... 15.26 - R437 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    49. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 15.82 - R850 -
    Top 96% match vs all users

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    The most interesting question from this study is whether central-southern Italians had all this "oriental" prior to the building of Rome. My first inclination is that the answer is probably no, as I suspect the original inhabitants were BBC + Copper/Neo Italians for lack of a better word. So when we say Romans were east Mediterranean shifted, I'd like more information on the necropolises and when exactly this ancestry arrived. I know that the Italian Neolithic had more Iran_Neo ancestry, but it seems considerably lower than at the time of the Imperial Roman capital/empire. Hopefully that other study is forthcoming.

    EDIT: I don't think there is such thing as a "Levanticist", certainly not in this study. That's just a fuzzy word to cloud racism against Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    In the case of Davidski and is wrong predictions. I think is reputation is playing against him, a lot of scientists had their intuitions show'ed to be wrong if we think about it, but in case of Davidski, it's playing against him for people that already do not like him. As for is Steppe ancestry results in South Asians, i dont really know anything about it. Is it about modern SA populations with Steppe ancestry vs prehistoric SA populations? I have hard time to believe he invents results from scrap, this has to be matter of calculators. Like i know he use Chimp instead of M'Buti in is runs.

    And i'm not really talking about amateur Communities, obviously there is a lot of weird specimen in them, myself included. I'm just wondering what's the idea of such forum communities if in the end we only try to account on what scientists are serving us.

    If we take the recent Italian study, already there is " scandals ", Morocco_Neo Ancestry, J2b in Etruscans, Etruscans and Latins being kinda similar etc... People will try to build a story driven to themselves with it. But we dont really know anything to be honest. I think to me the most strange result of this study, is the late sample C1a2 of Middle-Age or Renaissance, so old lineage and one of the youngest of the study, sounds like a one-time scenario.
    There are some obvious pre-WHG lineages scattered around Europe today, some of the C-V20 public samples available at FTDNA are from southern Europe. It's just luck that it happened to pop up in a sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    The most interesting question from this study is whether central-southern Italians had all this "oriental" prior to the building of Rome. My first inclination is that the answer is probably no, as I suspect the original inhabitants were BBC + Copper/Neo Italians for lack of a better word. So when we say Romans were east Mediterranean shifted, I'd like more information on the necropolises and when exactly this ancestry arrived. I know that the Italian Neolithic had more Iran_Neo ancestry, but it seems considerably lower than at the time of the Imperial Roman capital/empire. Hopefully that other study is forthcoming.

    EDIT: I don't think there is such thing as a "Levanticist", certainly not in this study. That's just a fuzzy word to cloud racism against Jews.
    The study says that steppe, and Iran show increase by the Iron age, with a blank spot in the data/timeline during the Bronze-Age.

    Neolithic Italians can be modeled as 5% WHG, and 95% Northern Greece/Central Anatolian Neolithic, which had the Iran Neolithic ancestry. The three copper age samples show a resurgence of WHG, brought to them, most likely from Early European Farmers that were richer in WHG. By the Iron age, there is a jump in Steppe Eneolithic (about 50% CHG/IN + 50% EHG) as well as straight-up Iran Neo in roughly equal proportions. Thus, during the Bronze-Age, we can see that there is an increase of Iran Neo. We see by the Iron Age that 850 can form a clade with Copper Age Anatolia (60% Anatolian_Neo + 40% CHG).




    I'm sure if we get samples from southern Italy, during the Iron age, and Bronze age, we will see a lot more Iran neo. Which was re-enforced by Greek colonization.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think it is very curious, that some hobbyists are not forthcoming with heat maps of samples like 850, and 437. Why no heat maps, or Gedmatch kit numbers posted? I would like to analyze the data myself, but unfortunately the original files have been removed from the Stanford site.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    In the case of Davidski and is wrong predictions. I think is reputation is playing against him, a lot of scientists had their intuitions show'ed to be wrong if we think about it, but in case of Davidski, it's playing against him for people that already do not like him. As for is Steppe ancestry results in South Asians, i dont really know anything about it. Is it about modern SA populations with Steppe ancestry vs prehistoric SA populations? I have hard time to believe he invents results from scrap, this has to be matter of calculators. Like i know he use Chimp instead of M'Buti in is runs.

    And i'm not really talking about amateur Communities, obviously there is a lot of weird specimen in them, myself included. I'm just wondering what's the idea of such forum communities if in the end we only try to account on what scientists are serving us.

    If we take the recent Italian study, already there is " scandals ", Morocco_Neo Ancestry, J2b in Etruscans, Etruscans and Latins being kinda similar etc... People will try to build a story driven to themselves with it. But we dont really know anything to be honest. I think to me the most strange result of this study, is the late sample C1a2 of Middle-Age or Renaissance, so old lineage and one of the youngest of the study, sounds like a one-time scenario.
    Academics have made mistakes. I think David Anthony made quite a few. In the last five years, with the real coming to fruition of the ability to analyze ancient dna, none of them has made such egregious and arrogant ones. They know better, for one thing. Who the hell, going on the evidence available from the Balkan Bronze Age, would claim Mycenaeans would be just like Corded Ware??? Please.

    As for whom I like and dislike, I have this peculiarity: I don't like racists. Sue me.

    As for your comments about the Italian study, it is full of erroneous comments and fallacious reasoning. Why on earth would it be a SCANDAL that one Etruscan from a port city has some North African, or that J2b, either a straight up Neolithic farmer lineage or a farmer lineage picked up by the Indo-Europeans in Europe and spread by them, is in Etruscans?

    we dont really know anything to be honest.
    The fact that we don't know EVERYTHING doesn't mean that we know NOTHING. That's completely fallacious reasoning. We know a lot about the Etruscans now from that data: we know that regardless of the fact that they didn't speak an Indo-European language they were Indo-European, steppe admixed people, like the Basques, similar to the early Italics, and similar to modern Spaniards and Northern Italians.

    The Herodotus theory is dead in the water. Somebody fish it out and bury it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The study says that steppe, and Iran show increase by the Iron age, with a blank spot in the data/timeline during the Bronze-Age.

    Neolithic Italians can be modeled as 5% WHG, and 95% Northern Greece/Central Anatolian Neolithic, which had the Iran Neolithic ancestry. The three copper age samples show a resurgence of WHG, brought to them, most likely from Early European Farmers that were richer in WHG. By the Iron age, there is a jump in Steppe Eneolithic (about 50% CHG/IN + 50% EHG) as well as straight-up Iran Neo in roughly equal proportions. Thus, during the Bronze-Age, we can see that there is an increase of Iran Neo. We see by the Iron Age that 850 can form a clade with Copper Age Anatolia (60% Anatolian_Neo + 40% CHG).




    I'm sure if we get samples from southern Italy, during the Iron age, and Bronze age, we will see a lot more Iran neo. Which was re-enforced by Greek colonization.
    Amazing that the paper has to be quoted and re-quoted. It just doesn't make a dent in certain people's conclusions.

    We also have the results from Sardinia and Sicily, which are also ignored.

    Incredible. Some people just will NOT follow the evidence if it leads somewhere they don't want to go.

    Now, did levels increase in the South during the Roman period? Hopefully, we'll soon find out.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Amazing that the paper has to be quoted and re-quoted. It just doesn't make a dent in certain people's conclusions.

    We also have the results from Sardinia and Sicily, which are also ignored.

    Incredible. Some people just will NOT follow the evidence if it leads somewhere they don't want to go.

    Now, did levels increase in the South during the Roman period? Hopefully, we'll soon find out.
    I hope that the David Reich paper will answer these questions:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0txUv9ei5I

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I hope that the David Reich paper will answer these questions:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0txUv9ei5I
    Well, I hope his colleagues don't make the mistakes they made in the Sardinia paper, where they didn't pay enough attention to Sardinian substructure, and assumed that the Late Antiquity samples "necessarily" had a big impact on the genetics of all modern Sardinians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Academics have made mistakes. I think David Anthony made quite a few. In the last five years, with the real coming to fruition of the ability to analyze ancient dna, none of them has made such egregious and arrogant ones. They know better, for one thing. Who the hell, going on the evidence available from the Balkan Bronze Age, would claim Mycenaeans would be just like Corded Ware??? Please.

    As for whom I like and dislike, I have this peculiarity: I don't like racists. Sue me.

    As for your comments about the Italian study, it is full of erroneous comments and fallacious reasoning. Why on earth would it be a SCANDAL that one Etruscan from a port city has some North African, or that J2b, either a straight up Neolithic farmer lineage or a farmer lineage picked up by the Indo-Europeans in Europe and spread by them, is in Etruscans?



    The fact that we don't know EVERYTHING doesn't mean that we know NOTHING. That's completely fallacious reasoning. We know a lot about the Etruscans now from that data: we know that regardless of the fact that they didn't speak an Indo-European language they were Indo-European, steppe admixed people, like the Basques, similar to the early Italics, and similar to modern Spaniards and Northern Italians.

    The Herodotus theory is dead in the water. Somebody fish it out and bury it.
    I dont have any conclusions or thoughts about Etruscans, you didn't understand what i meant by scandals. People jumped on the J2b sample to say, it proves Etruscans were from Balkans or Anatolia. Or that the little North African ancestry could make them from Africa. Other users created those scandals or i may say, hypothesis. Not the study itself.

    As for Steppe or Iran ancestry, my thought on this wich i have already expressed, is that in the case of Steppe, Steppe will always be " Bell-Beaker-Like " with maybe some samples closer to Yamnaya, but BB ancestry will be the core Steppe ancestry found in futur samples of most europe and for all epoch, there was no multiple IE migrations from Steppe only the BBC. This mean that we will hardly know anything about who spoked IE or not looking at Steppe ancestry. We will see appearance and disappearance of Steppe ancestry here and there but it will always be from the core BB ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I dont have any conclusions or thoughts about Etruscans, you didn't understand what i meant by scandals. People jumped on the J2b sample to say, it proves Etruscans were from Balkans or Anatolia. Or that the little North African ancestry could make them from Africa. Other users created those scandals or i may say, hypothesis. Not the study itself.

    As for Steppe or Iran ancestry, my thought on this wich i have already expressed, is that in the case of Steppe, Steppe will always be " Bell-Beaker-Like " with maybe some samples closer to Yamnaya, but BB ancestry will be the core Steppe ancestry found in futur samples of most europe and for all epoch, there was no multiple IE migrations from Steppe only the BBC. This mean that we will hardly know anything about who spoked IE or not looking at Steppe ancestry. We will see appearance and disappearance of Steppe ancestry here and there but it will always be from the core BB ancestry.
    Fair enough.

    My advice would be to just ignore the posts of stupid or agenda driven people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I have a question, i have a read a lot about " Amateur " tools especially going against Anthrogenica or Eurogenes. But how actually Amateurs can know whether Amateur or Professionnal Tools are Corrects? This would make them Professionnals right?

    I really hate that situation where only the " Professionnals " can be right, it makes me think to the middle-ages where only a Cleric was right on Religious matters, and his words mattered too much. What if Professionnals are wrong in their logic or the interpretation / use of their own tools? What about Bias? What about Cheating even? Can we really just blindly accept things because it's " professionnal science "? Science is right, but a Scientific is not always right nor he always says the truth or his truthfull with himself. If it was the case, all studies on a said subject would always bring the same results.

    All roads lead to Rome.

    In the case of the Etruscans, I would say on the basis of a fairly long experience of observation, amateurs have always contributed very little to the knowledge of the Etruscans.

    Even many professionals who were not specialized in etruscology have made huge mistakes.

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    https://elcombatedeneville.blogspot....gQq6vOSFiAthEE

    I was so calm surfing the internet, I was trying to forget the papers of Rome, not because I was not interested but to take a breath, when suddenly I could not believe what I saw. The news was already in Spain, my God, what have I done, I could not resist it and began to read:

    Monday, November 25, 2019


    "THE ITALIANS DO NOT EXIST": the DNA of Imperial Rome comes from Syria and Lebanon

    "It's hard to say what New York was like today. That was Rome two thousand years ago," explains Guido Barbujani, one of the great Italian geneticist experts. Barbujani speaks of his land, if Rome, the imperial, was of someone. Because a novel study published by the journal Science states, after genetically analyzing 127 bone remains from 12,000 BC to 300 AD collected from various archaeological remains of the eternal city, that the Romans, like today's New Yorkers, are genetically from everywhere.

    The remains say that the Romans mixed with what would now be inhabitants of the lands of Lebanon, Syria, Greece and North Africa. If we Romans are all, since their right or culture is the basis of most of the western world, we are all partly Syrians, Maghreb and Lebanese too.

    The study, conducted by scientists of various nationalities, shows the genetic change of the Italian Peninsula and what led to the appearance of the so-called Roman Empire. Between 10,000 and 7,000 BC, the bones of the three collecting hunters would be almost identical to others analyzed on the other side of the Alps. "There is a genetic pattern that usually makes them more similar to those that are close than those that are far away. Studying the Etruscans in Tuscany we have found two areas where individuals maintain an almost identical DNA, but 50 kilometers further south are different. Sometimes it also happens that two villages half an hour away by car have more differences than locations that are 500 kilometers away, "says Barbujani.

    When Rome was New York

    However, the pole of attraction that supposed the great Rome changes its genetics. Between 900 and 200 BC the Romans begin to differentiate themselves from Western Europeans and become more like the inhabitants of the Middle East and the Maghreb. Of 48 genomes studied, only two individuals show pure traits of Western Europe. "The diversity was absolutely overwhelming," said Ron Pinhasi, one of the researchers at the University of Vienna study.

    Why did that genetic mixture exist in Rome? By power, money, influx of slaves, sexual and commercial relations ... Exactly for the same reason that New York is probably today one of the most genetically varied cities in the world.

    When the barbarian invasion arrived and the empire broke, the city went from having one million inhabitants to one hundred thousand and it was Constantinople, the new capital of the western world, that became a host city for immigrants. "When the flows of immigrants went elsewhere, the greatness of Rome began to decline," concludes the interesting article entitled 'Rome open city' in which the author, Pietro Grieco, makes a journey through Italian history and genetics. "For many centuries the city was an open city. It welcomed migrants, free or forced, in large numbers. And this pollution, we repeat, coincided with its success," the text said.

    Migration, a phenomenon since ancient times

    The Science article also reveals something that is on everyone's lips today, especially in Italy: migratory flows. "I promised that I would do my best to defend the borders and stop the invasion of our country and I am doing it," said the leader of the Lega, Matteo Salvini, on September 7, 2018.




    Y lo que enseña el reportaje es que la historia viene a confirmar de nuevo que todo lo vivido hoy no es más que un repetición de hechos ya pasados: "Es una constante del ser humano. Siempre se migró mucho en todos los momentos históricos. En Roma, mucha gente vino del sur y del este", explica Barbujani. "La gente puede imaginar que el nivel de inmigración de hoy en día es algo nuevo, pero los ADNs antiguos muestran que los seres humanos llevan mezclándose fuertemente durante mucho tiempo", afirma el genetista Jonathan Pritchard, de la Universidad de Stanford.

    Sardinia's exception


    "We Italians do not exist. It is only a geographical aggregation. We have different genetic identities, linked to various historical processes," explained Davide Pettener, anthropologist of the department of biological science at the University of Bologna and creator of a DNA sample bank. to track the genetic history of the Italians. This study, generated with 3,000 blood samples from Italians from all regions, shows that transalpine today have a strong genetic load of "Germans, Greeks, Lombards, Normans, Suevos and Arabs."

    There is only one Italian region that retains a DNA almost intact and without mixtures: Sardinia. "Sardines differ from all European Italian populations. While Sicily has been a center for all Mediterranean populations, Sardinia retains the oldest footprints that have not suffered invasions and has differentiated itself from all European populations along with Basques and lapones, "Luigi Ripamonti collects in his article 'Italians do not exist, we are a great genetic mix less Sardines'.

    The false Aryan race of Benito Mussolini

    However, Benito Mussolini's Italian fascism used the past and genetics as two essential elements of his ideology. Il Duce proclaimed himself heir to Emperor Augustus and brought to Italy the 'romanitá', a kind of return to the values of Greater Rome that would return greatness to the country. On the other hand, Mussolini also used the race component and rejection abroad as part of his propaganda.

    In the famous manifesto of the race of 1938, in which Mussolini laid the foundations of his racial politics, he said in point six: "There is now a pure Italian race. This statement is not based on the confusion of the biological concept of race with the historical-linguistic concept of people and nation, but in the very pure blood relationship that unites today's Italians to the generations that inhabit Italy for millennia.This ancient blood purity is the greatest title of nobility of the Italian nation ". In point eight, the manifesto assured that: "Theories that support the African origin of some European peoples and that include a common Mediterranean race to Camitas and Semitic peoples must be considered dangerous, establishing absolutely unacceptable ideological relations and sympathies."

    Today genetics has shown that both statements were false. The imperial Rome that Mussolini liked so much and many of his current followers had a huge mix and confluence with the towns he denies in point eight. "Our ambition now is to start from scientific and cultural evidence, two aspects that should never be separated, to face our own actuality such as, for example, the racial problem. We are a people who have achieved important results precisely because we have mixed together," explained the anthropologist Giovanni Destro Bisol during the presentation of another extensive study on the genetics of the country conducted by various Italian universities. This work concluded by stating that "we Italians are the people with the greatest genetic diversity in Europe."

    THE COMMENT
    This study reveals the real cause of the collapse of the Roman Empire. The East knocked him down ideologically - Christianity, Judaism - and biologically. He survived by mutating the Gallic Empire and to a lesser extent Ilirio by the composition of commanders and troops and finally tried to Germanize him desperately. Once the genuinely Italian-Roman component Italy was eliminated, it became the objective of all the dominators there were and for having. He had become a great mass of East and North African slaves, Mussolini tried to redeem them by ignoring these facts to some extent as he intuited them and logically his mission was impossible. The phenomenon of the Reconquest and the Repopulation in the Peninsula badly called Iberian propitious instead a completely different scenario to what happened in Italy and Greece until the nineteenth century in which Spain loses its Atlantic projection and begins the process of debasement that reaches today even with the increasingly Mediterranean orientation. At this point the independence of the entire Mediterranean facade may be the key to the Spanish regeneration and its Monarchy.
    Poor Duce, poor Duce. No wonder he ended up hanging upside down while the enraged mass sang to him: "We are made of mud and not of stone, created to make love and not war."

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Whoever wrote that article is a complete moron.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    https://elcombatedeneville.blogspot....gQq6vOSFiAthEE

    I was so calm surfing the internet, I was trying to forget the papers of Rome, not because I was not interested but to take a breath, when suddenly I could not believe what I saw. The news was already in Spain, my God, what have I done, I could not resist it and began to read:

    Monday, November 25, 2019


    "THE ITALIANS DO NOT EXIST": the DNA of Imperial Rome comes from Syria and Lebanon

    "It's hard to say what New York was like today. That was Rome two thousand years ago," explains Guido Barbujani, one of the great Italian geneticist experts. Barbujani speaks of his land, if Rome, the imperial, was of someone. Because a novel study published by the journal Science states, after genetically analyzing 127 bone remains from 12,000 BC to 300 AD collected from various archaeological remains of the eternal city, that the Romans, like today's New Yorkers, are genetically from everywhere.

    The remains say that the Romans mixed with what would now be inhabitants of the lands of Lebanon, Syria, Greece and North Africa. If we Romans are all, since their right or culture is the basis of most of the western world, we are all partly Syrians, Maghreb and Lebanese too.

    The study, conducted by scientists of various nationalities, shows the genetic change of the Italian Peninsula and what led to the appearance of the so-called Roman Empire. Between 10,000 and 7,000 BC, the bones of the three collecting hunters would be almost identical to others analyzed on the other side of the Alps. "There is a genetic pattern that usually makes them more similar to those that are close than those that are far away. Studying the Etruscans in Tuscany we have found two areas where individuals maintain an almost identical DNA, but 50 kilometers further south are different. Sometimes it also happens that two villages half an hour away by car have more differences than locations that are 500 kilometers away, "says Barbujani.

    When Rome was New York

    However, the pole of attraction that supposed the great Rome changes its genetics. Between 900 and 200 BC the Romans begin to differentiate themselves from Western Europeans and become more like the inhabitants of the Middle East and the Maghreb. Of 48 genomes studied, only two individuals show pure traits of Western Europe. "The diversity was absolutely overwhelming," said Ron Pinhasi, one of the researchers at the University of Vienna study.

    Why did that genetic mixture exist in Rome? By power, money, influx of slaves, sexual and commercial relations ... Exactly for the same reason that New York is probably today one of the most genetically varied cities in the world.

    When the barbarian invasion arrived and the empire broke, the city went from having one million inhabitants to one hundred thousand and it was Constantinople, the new capital of the western world, that became a host city for immigrants. "When the flows of immigrants went elsewhere, the greatness of Rome began to decline," concludes the interesting article entitled 'Rome open city' in which the author, Pietro Grieco, makes a journey through Italian history and genetics. "For many centuries the city was an open city. It welcomed migrants, free or forced, in large numbers. And this pollution, we repeat, coincided with its success," the text said.

    Migration, a phenomenon since ancient times

    The Science article also reveals something that is on everyone's lips today, especially in Italy: migratory flows. "I promised that I would do my best to defend the borders and stop the invasion of our country and I am doing it," said the leader of the Lega, Matteo Salvini, on September 7, 2018.




    Y lo que enseña el reportaje es que la historia viene a confirmar de nuevo que todo lo vivido hoy no es más que un repetición de hechos ya pasados: "Es una constante del ser humano. Siempre se migró mucho en todos los momentos históricos. En Roma, mucha gente vino del sur y del este", explica Barbujani. "La gente puede imaginar que el nivel de inmigración de hoy en día es algo nuevo, pero los ADNs antiguos muestran que los seres humanos llevan mezclándose fuertemente durante mucho tiempo", afirma el genetista Jonathan Pritchard, de la Universidad de Stanford.

    Sardinia's exception


    "We Italians do not exist. It is only a geographical aggregation. We have different genetic identities, linked to various historical processes," explained Davide Pettener, anthropologist of the department of biological science at the University of Bologna and creator of a DNA sample bank. to track the genetic history of the Italians. This study, generated with 3,000 blood samples from Italians from all regions, shows that transalpine today have a strong genetic load of "Germans, Greeks, Lombards, Normans, Suevos and Arabs."

    There is only one Italian region that retains a DNA almost intact and without mixtures: Sardinia. "Sardines differ from all European Italian populations. While Sicily has been a center for all Mediterranean populations, Sardinia retains the oldest footprints that have not suffered invasions and has differentiated itself from all European populations along with Basques and lapones, "Luigi Ripamonti collects in his article 'Italians do not exist, we are a great genetic mix less Sardines'.

    The false Aryan race of Benito Mussolini

    However, Benito Mussolini's Italian fascism used the past and genetics as two essential elements of his ideology. Il Duce proclaimed himself heir to Emperor Augustus and brought to Italy the 'romanitá', a kind of return to the values of Greater Rome that would return greatness to the country. On the other hand, Mussolini also used the race component and rejection abroad as part of his propaganda.

    In the famous manifesto of the race of 1938, in which Mussolini laid the foundations of his racial politics, he said in point six: "There is now a pure Italian race. This statement is not based on the confusion of the biological concept of race with the historical-linguistic concept of people and nation, but in the very pure blood relationship that unites today's Italians to the generations that inhabit Italy for millennia.This ancient blood purity is the greatest title of nobility of the Italian nation ". In point eight, the manifesto assured that: "Theories that support the African origin of some European peoples and that include a common Mediterranean race to Camitas and Semitic peoples must be considered dangerous, establishing absolutely unacceptable ideological relations and sympathies."

    Today genetics has shown that both statements were false. The imperial Rome that Mussolini liked so much and many of his current followers had a huge mix and confluence with the towns he denies in point eight. "Our ambition now is to start from scientific and cultural evidence, two aspects that should never be separated, to face our own actuality such as, for example, the racial problem. We are a people who have achieved important results precisely because we have mixed together," explained the anthropologist Giovanni Destro Bisol during the presentation of another extensive study on the genetics of the country conducted by various Italian universities. This work concluded by stating that "we Italians are the people with the greatest genetic diversity in Europe."

    THE COMMENT
    This study reveals the real cause of the collapse of the Roman Empire. The East knocked him down ideologically - Christianity, Judaism - and biologically. He survived by mutating the Gallic Empire and to a lesser extent Ilirio by the composition of commanders and troops and finally tried to Germanize him desperately. Once the genuinely Italian-Roman component Italy was eliminated, it became the objective of all the dominators there were and for having. He had become a great mass of East and North African slaves, Mussolini tried to redeem them by ignoring these facts to some extent as he intuited them and logically his mission was impossible. The phenomenon of the Reconquest and the Repopulation in the Peninsula badly called Iberian propitious instead a completely different scenario to what happened in Italy and Greece until the nineteenth century in which Spain loses its Atlantic projection and begins the process of debasement that reaches today even with the increasingly Mediterranean orientation. At this point the independence of the entire Mediterranean facade may be the key to the Spanish regeneration and its Monarchy.
    Poor Duce, poor Duce. No wonder he ended up hanging upside down while the enraged mass sang to him: "We are made of mud and not of stone, created to make love and not war."

    What you posted is a good example of how, for different reasons, right and left propaganda have much more in common than they think, and are roughly the same thing.


    What you posted is the mix of a copy and paste from various different sources, that Italians don't exist is an old article from an Italian newspaper referring to an old studio. Funny that to confirm that Italians do not exist is David Pettener, an Italian biologist who does not even have an Italian surname.


    Given how obsessed the rest of the world is with us Italians, because there is no doubt that the rest of the world is obsessed with our history when the average Italian generally doesn't give a damn about what exists outside of Italy, I begin to believe that maybe we really do exist. I had some doubts until a few years ago, but now I have less doubts about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Whoever wrote that article is a complete moron.
    I was dead when I saw the treatment he had been given to the article.

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    That article had me laughing from the very first line... Comic, bordering ridiculous.
    Surely that was the aim of the writer starting with ""THE ITALIANS DO NOT EXIST": the DNA of Imperial Rome comes from Syria and Lebanon" "
    I mean who writes like that without the aim of triggering people, tr0ll style.


    Using the same analogy the writer used, it would be like stating "THE AMERICANS DO NOT EXIST": the DNA of the USA comes from Bangladesh and India.
    I hope the writer does not take himself seriously, and the editor was drunk when he let that through.

    Edit: Clicked the link... its a blogpost, doubt there was even an editor, or editing for that matter...
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    What you posted is a good example of how, for different reasons, right and left propaganda have much more in common than they think, and are roughly the same thing.


    What you posted is the mix of a copy and paste from various different sources, that Italians don't exist is an old article from an Italian newspaper referring to an old studio. Funny that to confirm that Italians do not exist is David Pettener, an Italian biologist who does not even have an Italian surname.


    Given how obsessed the rest of the world is with us Italians, because there is no doubt that the rest of the world is obsessed with our history when the average Italian generally doesn't give a damn about what exists outside of Italy, I begin to believe that maybe we really do exist. I had some doubts until a few years ago, but now I have less doubts about this.
    Well, what you said has sounded very familiar to me because that happens in Andalusia, they don't really criticize anyone, they are watching their lives and they don't talk about those from outside and if they do it is positive, unlike other places that are constantly talking about others but always negative, so when you have made that comment I thought it should be an inheritance because that is also the case.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    We are living the age of fake news. Lies are propagated as absolute truths and many unwary people believe them. Joseph Goebbels, German Nazi Party Propaganda Minister said: “A lie repeated a thousand times becomes true.” This sentence summarizes the tragic consequence of the spread of illegitimate news.
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    The paper represents a decent preliminary effort but much more needs to be done. I think we need a good deal of samples from the Bronze Age, as well as from the more rural areas of Italy during the Imperial Age. It is bizarre that the researchers would decide to focus so heavily on the city of Rome and its immediate surroundings such as the port towns. These areas would have been the pinnacle of cosmopolitan life and heavily populated with foreign merchants, tradesmen and slaves from across the Mediterranean during the height of the Roman Empire; we know this from the writings of the Romans themselves, as well as observing modern migration patterns in the West, where you have "international cities" like London, New York and Toronto that have a disproportionate number of foreign citizens compared to the nation as a whole. I find it hard to believe that they would not retroactively understand that the legitimacy of the Imperial Age findings would be called into question because of these location choices.

    It is satisfying to finally put the Etruscan origin theories to bed for good. I always found them to be manifestations of questionable sentiments among many people i.e. assuming that the locals were incapable of their own prosperity, and thus had to have been physically subdued by a foreign Asiatic elite who were the real Etruscans. This turned out to be completely false. The Italic tribes were ultimately of very similar stock to the Etruscans; both groups being heavily Indo-European in their genetic origins irrespective of ethnolinguistics. Romans being the progressive evolution of Latins were also grass-roots and indigenous to the Italian Peninsula. That now places the Minoan, Mycenaean, Classical & Hellenistic Greek, Etruscan and Roman peoples and cultures as indigenous to their respective regions of Southern Europe. This must be excruciatingly painful for those interlopers who always try to insert themselves into the narrative of European civilization.

    Rome is a good example of the cycle most civilizations inevitably experience. It was founded by men who resembled Northern Italians and Spaniards, and who from the Kingdom, to the Republic, to the early Empire established Roman civilization and its many gifts to us in the realms of law, politics, philosophy, art, civil engineering and warfare. Sometime after Augustus Caesar there appears to have been an influx of foreigners who became overrepresented demographically in the city of Rome relative to the Italian Peninsula. They likely arrived from across the Roman Empire, but the genetics point strongly towards an Eastern Mediterranean origin for most migrants as their profile is similar to Greeks and Bronze Age Anatolians. The Roman population of the city was either displaced, or moved to the countryside of their own volition; their genetic profile persisting in large part throughout the Imperial Age in rural farms and villages.

    [1] "distance%=0.7252"

    ITA_Rome_Imperial


    Cypriot,40.6
    Greek_Crete,33.4
    Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,15.6
    ITA_Latini_IA,10.4

    Rome declines in Late Antiquity due to war, disease and general stagnation. There is emigration of merchants to Constantinople and other trading hubs; the city experiences a 90% drop in population. This hurts the bourgeoisie, city dwelling Eastern Mediterranean population in a massively disproportionate way due to their over reliance on the megalopolis and its many comforts and vices. The rural folk who are more traditional, healthy and fertile, begin to repopulate Rome en masse now that the ethnic balance has tipped in their favor; they absorb most of the leftover residents leading to a significant resurgence of Latin admixture in the city; the study proxies this using Basques. There also exists a minor input from Germanic tribes after the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.

    [1] "distance%=0.8182"

    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

    ITA_Rome_Imperial,57
    ITA_Latini_IA,37.6
    Germany_MA,5.4

    This increase in both Latin and Northern European admixture continues into the Middle Ages and Renaissance where the full variation of the modern Central Italian genome is formed as a result of various compounding historical events.

    [1] "distance%=1.2671"

    ITA_Rome_MA

    ITA_Rome_Imperial,47.6
    ITA_Latini_IA,42.2
    Germany_MA,10.2

    That's my take on the results, anyway. I see that many people, including Davidski, have stated that the Prenestini outlier is half Phoenician; this is nonsense. This individual almost certainly derives their eastern half from the Balkans and Anatolia. Here is how they come back when running them against the full modern G25 datasheet. Could it be any more obvious?

    [1] "distance%=1.8397"

    ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o

    Greek_Central_Anatolia,42
    Sardinian,19.8
    Spanish_La_Rioja,13.8
    Italian_Piedmont_o,12.2
    Greek,8.6
    Italian_Umbria,3.6



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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    What you posted is a good example of how, for different reasons, right and left propaganda have much more in common than they think, and are roughly the same thing.


    What you posted is the mix of a copy and paste from various different sources, that Italians don't exist is an old article from an Italian newspaper referring to an old studio. Funny that to confirm that Italians do not exist is David Pettener, an Italian biologist who does not even have an Italian surname.


    Given how obsessed the rest of the world is with us Italians, because there is no doubt that the rest of the world is obsessed with our history when the average Italian generally doesn't give a damn about what exists outside of Italy, I begin to believe that maybe we really do exist. I had some doubts until a few years ago, but now I have less doubts about this.
    Pettener surname originates in padova, and was first recorded initially spelt petenar in the year 1138 ,....it means " to have combed"......the bulk of the 95 households in in friuli italy now.....about 70% of the 95
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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