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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    on Barcin , we need to consult hittite texts as they note a people which indicate thracians........but I understand what you say

    on Sea peoples......I believe they are the from the collapse of the hittite nation, same time period...........be these people Luwian, hittite or hatti linguistically ...........IMO, the etruscans where already in italy at the time of this hittite collapse

    I have been following this below for some time , which seems to have no conclusion
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ubt-180965244/
    The samples labeled Barcin are prehistoric Neolithic farmers who lived in what's now "Barcin". They spread and introduced agriculture from Anatolia to Europe.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    What you posted is a good example of how, for different reasons, right and left propaganda have much more in common than they think, and are roughly the same thing.


    What you posted is the mix of a copy and paste from various different sources, that Italians don't exist is an old article from an Italian newspaper referring to an old studio. Funny that to confirm that Italians do not exist is David Pettener, an Italian biologist who does not even have an Italian surname.


    Given how obsessed the rest of the world is with us Italians, because there is no doubt that the rest of the world is obsessed with our history when the average Italian generally doesn't give a damn about what exists outside of Italy, I begin to believe that maybe we really do exist. I had some doubts until a few years ago, but now I have less doubts about this.
    Political forces of both sides weaponize ignorance. Far-leftists use the 19th, and 20th century Nordicist standard of race, to make their arguments. It is an outmoded straw man only used by people that don't know anything about human population genetics. They have to use the most extreme rhetoric, to make their own stupid ideas pale in comparison, I guess. The scientific community has long known that all people are on a gradient of mix of different source populations. But all of the sudden, just certain groups are a mix of immigration. All of these social scientists, and benighted journalists are just catching up, while trying to put their useless sociology degrees to work. Obviously, they want to shoehorn a pro- or anti- immigration argument, depending on who is looking at the data. Ironically, the study in fact shows that there were Northern, and Southern Italian-like people in Italy since at least the Iron age, and they have consistently lived there since. Before, and after all of these overblown events, that these ignorant ideologues try to use for their own perverse agendas.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 28-11-19 at 15:44.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    We are in a perverse era where everyone uses things as they please and dares to share identities in the same way.

    You are the Moors

    Take a test: look in the mirror; That olive complexion, that dark brown hair, don't you think it's suspicious?

    Spend one of these days in any North African city and tell me if its inhabitants could not be your first cousins. Who do you look more like? A Moroccan or a Norwegian? Those curly mane, those carob-colored eyes, aren't they the same ones we found on the southern shore? I know that you have a vocation of the European extreme right, essentialist and supremacist, but if you look in the mirror you will see that you are walking a little short with blue eyes and blond hair, that your skin holds the sun much better than its counterparts from further north .

    Those curly mane, those carob-colored eyes, aren't they the same ones we found on the southern shore? I know that you have a vocation of the European extreme right, essentialist and supremacist, but if you look in the mirror you will see that you are walking a little short with blue eyes and blond hair, that your skin holds the sun much better than its counterparts from farther north .

    No, you are not pure and carry in the blood and in the culture and in the language that foreigner that you paint like the devil.



    https://www.elperiodico.com/es/opini...hachmi-7084418

    Well, this is what we have to put up with, our democracy can allow even this, but it seems very dirty that obsession that everyone has with Spain and its Muslim era when for us it is a paragraph of our history or better something that happened in Our soil is not even considered ours.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    We are in a perverse era where everyone uses things as they please and dares to share identities in the same way.

    You are the Moors

    Take a test: look in the mirror; That olive complexion, that dark brown hair, don't you think it's suspicious?

    Spend one of these days in any North African city and tell me if its inhabitants could not be your first cousins. Who do you look more like? A Moroccan or a Norwegian? Those curly mane, those carob-colored eyes, aren't they the same ones we found on the southern shore? I know that you have a vocation of the European extreme right, essentialist and supremacist, but if you look in the mirror you will see that you are walking a little short with blue eyes and blond hair, that your skin holds the sun much better than its counterparts from further north .

    Those curly mane, those carob-colored eyes, aren't they the same ones we found on the southern shore? I know that you have a vocation of the European extreme right, essentialist and supremacist, but if you look in the mirror you will see that you are walking a little short with blue eyes and blond hair, that your skin holds the sun much better than its counterparts from farther north .

    No, you are not pure and carry in the blood and in the culture and in the language that foreigner that you paint like the devil.



    https://www.elperiodico.com/es/opini...hachmi-7084418

    Well, this is what we have to put up with, our democracy can allow even this, but it seems very dirty that obsession that everyone has with Spain and its Muslim era when for us it is a paragraph of our history or better something that happened in Our soil is not even considered ours.
    maybe Vox is wrong, but this author is worse

    she is identifying todays North Africans with the Moors
    the Moors are something of the past, they are neither todays Spaniards nor todays North Africans
    their cultural identity was something completely different
    and I am not an expert in history, but there even is not such thing like 'The Moors', because the Moors of the 8th century were quite different from the Moors of the 14th century

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    ^^
    I agree.
    But this we have to endure constantly used by each other and always related to current policy or that makes it even more dirty. And many times even Spaniards and other Europeans support these hypotheses if it can be called that bypassing the danger they entail as if it were a fun game like innocent provocation, but you have to be careful with these things because they can be more dangerous than what they apparently represent.

    We need reinforcements because these things are not as innocent as they represent.

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    Guys, could we leave the politics behind and get back to the paper?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How "low quality"? Are there other samples on the datasheet of similar or "lower" quality?
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Is there access to them for independent modeling?
    If I remember correctly they couldnt function properly in GEDmatch; lacking in the required SNPs. There are other samples of lower quality but they are normally marked in the data sheet as such, and are very rarely used. I have no idea just how bad each of them is though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As to the Greeks from Empuries, the post from LTG using G25 seems to indicate that one of the Empuries' samples has more "Iranian" type ancestry than the Mycenaeans, doesn't it? Unless you mean that it's still roughly in the same range. I had already speculated that the more Iranian heavy sample might be from Ionian Greece.


    It looks like one of the Greeks does indeed show slightly elevated levels of Caucasus admixture relative to Mycenaeans. However, this does not take into account the Anatolian Neolithic admixture within Kura-Araxes; in reality, this 6% increase from Mycenaean to Empuries:l8208 may account to as little as 3% CHG-related admixture all things considered. Empuries:l8215 has less Kura-Araxes admixture than the Mycenaeans even though he is likely Ionian so it's not cut and dry. The level of genetic continuity is quite impressive when you consider the stretch of time between the Late Helladic to Roman Empire.





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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I ran a K-means cluster analysis on the Imperial Romans in PAST (data program for PCAs, neighbor joining trees and other analysis). I removed the obvious outlier samples that fell somewhere long the MENA cline. I then asked the program to divide the remaining samples into 4 distinct clusters based on their genetic correlation before working out the average of these different cluster groups. Once the centroid had been found I ran those coordinates against the Global 25 datasheet to find their closest population representatives; they happened to coincide with certain genetic locations for the most part.

    C1) West Mediterranean
    RMPR37, RMPR111, RMPR116

    C2) Aegean
    RMPR39, RMPR40, RMPR41,RMPR43, RMPR44, RMPR50, RMPR51, RMPR66, RMPR69, RMPR72, RMPR75, RMPR78, RMPR81, RMPR114, RMPR115, RMPR123, RMPR126, RMPR1543, RMPR1545

    C3) Anatolia
    RMPR38, RMPR128, RMPR76

    C4) South Italy
    RMPR45, RMPR47, RMPR49, RMPR73, RMPR80, RMPR113, RMPR125, RMPR131, RMPR132, RMPR436, RMPR835, RMPR836, RMPR1544, RMPR1548, RMPR1549



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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I ran a K-means cluster analysis on the Imperial Romans in PAST (data program for PCA�s, neighbor joining trees and other analysis). I removed the obvious outlier samples that fell somewhere long the MENA cline. I then asked the program to divide the remaining samples into 4 distinct clusters based on their genetic correlation before working out the average of these different cluster groups. Once the centroid had been found I ran those coordinates against the Global 25 datasheet to find their closest population representatives; they happened to coincide with certain genetic locations for the most part.

    C1) West Mediterranean
    RMPR37, RMPR111, RMPR116

    C2) Aegean
    RMPR39, RMPR40, RMPR41,RMPR43, RMPR44, RMPR50, RMPR51, RMPR66, RMPR69, RMPR72, RMPR75, RMPR78, RMPR81, RMPR114, RMPR115, RMPR123, RMPR126, RMPR1543, RMPR1545

    C3) Anatolia
    RMPR38, RMPR128, RMPR76

    C4) South Italy
    RMPR45, RMPR47, RMPR49, RMPR73, RMPR80, RMPR113, RMPR125, RMPR131, RMPR132, RMPR436, RMPR835, RMPR836, RMPR1544, RMPR1548, RMPR1549


    Thanks.

    Could you list the sample numbers for the ones you removed, i.e. the ones in the Middle Eastern cline?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Political forces of both sides weaponize ignorance. Far-leftists use the 19th, and 20th century Nordicist standard of race, to make their arguments. It is an outmoded straw man only used by people that don't know anything about human population genetics.
    Exactly so, same arguments for apparently different reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    We are in a perverse era where everyone uses things as they please and dares to share identities in the same way.
    The issue of identity can be painful for some migrants, especially the first generations, and I fully understand that. Their identity is no longer that of their countries of origin and not yet that of the countries where they were born and raised. I think she lacks complete self-awareness of what she is, and she is using exactly the same arguments as the nordicists.

    In any case, it is wrong to manipulate ancient history to give an answer to the problems of contemporary society, and this applies to both far-right propaganda and its opposite. So let's get back to the topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks.

    Could you list the sample numbers for the ones you removed, i.e. the ones in the Middle Eastern cline?
    They look like they have origins in Lebanon and Syria.

    It's pretty funny how the media jumped all over the apparent fact that Romans were very similar to people from this region. These guys compromised a mere 14.5% of Imperial Roman samples, and that is after the researchers purposefully excavated the most cosmopolitan areas that they could possibly find.

    C5) Middle East
    RMPR1551, RMPR67, RMPR68, RMPR42, RMPR1547, RMPR1550, RMPR70

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    They look like they have origins in Lebanon and Syria.

    It's pretty funny how the media jumped all over the apparent fact that Romans were very similar to people from this region. These guys compromised a mere 14.5% of Imperial Roman samples, and that is after the researchers purposefully excavated the most cosmopolitan areas that they could possibly find.

    C5) Middle East
    RMPR1551, RMPR67, RMPR68, RMPR42, RMPR1547, RMPR1550, RMPR70

    They're most likely from here. Do you have exact information about the date of these samples? It is not surprising that there were also migrants to Rome from this part of the Empire.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Syria


    Edit: found.


    Monterotondo
    Date range: 26 BCE - 300 CE
    Individuals: R1551, R1547, R1550


    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strade)
    Date range: 100 - 300 CE
    Individuals: R67, R68, R70


    Isola Sacra necropolis
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isola_Sacra_Necropolis

    Date Range: 1 CE - 400 CE
    Individuals: R42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Exactly so, same arguments for apparently different reasons.




    The issue of identity can be painful for some migrants, especially the first generations, and I fully understand that. Their identity is no longer that of their countries of origin and not yet that of the countries where they were born and raised. I think she lacks complete self-awareness of what she is, and she is using exactly the same arguments as the nordicists.

    In any case, it is wrong to manipulate ancient history to give an answer to the problems of contemporary society, and this applies to both far-right propaganda and its opposite. So let's get back to the topic.
    be aware of the fact that many people in the new country do not even want to give her the same identity even if she was born and raised there. see the thread of angela about turks in germany.

    when i read her text, yes it sounds somehow wrong but she is right in some way. and it looks like it is adressed at spanish nordicists and racists, the core of the article is true and is something that purists don't want to realize. consider a german author who wrote exactly the same thing adressing german racists, but instead of the moors the author writes about balkans, italy or greece.
    yes it would be a bit of a lie because the dark features in germans did not necessarily come from those people but they shared the same source populations and thus they have similar features, and they really just aren't pure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Far-leftists use the 19th, and 20th century Nordicist standard of race, to make their arguments. It is an outmoded straw man only used by people that don't know anything about human population genetics.
    same goes for the far-right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    be aware of the fact that many people in the new country do not even want to give her the same identity even if she was born and raised there. see the thread of angela about turks in germany.

    when i read her text, yes it sounds somehow wrong but she is right in some way. and it looks like it is adressed at spanish nordicists and racists, the core of the article is true and is something that purists don't want to realize. consider a german author who wrote exactly the same thing adressing german racists, but instead of the moors the author writes about balkans, italy or greece.
    yes it would be a bit of a lie because the dark features in germans did not necessarily come from those people but still they shared the same source populations and thus they have similar features, and they really just aren't pure.
    I will not answer, I do not feel like an infraction. I am very pacified. You are going to eat what Cain ate.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    be aware of the fact that many people in the new country do not even want to give her the same identity even if she was born and raised there. see the thread of angela about turks in germany.

    when i read her text, yes it sounds somehow wrong but she is right in some way. and it looks like it is adressed at spanish nordicists and racists, the core of the article is true and is something that purists don't want to realize. consider a german author who wrote exactly the same thing adressing german racists, but instead of the moors the author writes about balkans, italy or greece.
    yes it would be a bit of a lie because the dark features in germans did not necessarily come from those people but still they shared the same source populations and thus they have similar features, and they really just aren't pure. same goes for the far-right.

    Identity is not something that is given and often social identity also depends on self-identity. You have just demonstrated that the subject is extremely complex and often based, on both sides, on very superficial personal opinions. There are many fully native Germans who could pass unnoticed in southern Europe and not in the most Nordic range of the spectrum. Precisely for this reason, it is better to return to the topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    They're most likely from here. Do you have exact information about the date of these samples? It is not surprising that there were also migrants to Rome from this part of the Empire.

    Edit: found.

    Monterotondo
    Date range: 26 BCE - 300 CE
    Individuals: R1551, R1547, R1550

    ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strade)
    Date range: 100 - 300 CE
    Individuals: R67, R68, R70

    Isola Sacra necropolis
    Date Range: 1 CE - 400 CE
    Individuals: R42
    RMPR42, RMPR1550, RMPR1547 and RMPR70 overlap with the Roman Lebanese samples. RMPR1551, RMPR67, RMPR68 are more like Syrians but still very similar.

    These guys were obviously of very similar ethnic origins because they lived, worked and died in the same vicinity across space and time. They likely belonged to a small ethnic enclave of merchants or tradespeople from the Levant that migrated to work in the cosmopolitan areas of the Rome. The samples who cluster like Aegeans, Anatolians and South Italians are so numerous in comparison to them that it would make sense that J2 would persist into Late Antiquity whilst J1 fizzles out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    maybe Vox is wrong, but this author is worse

    she is identifying todays North Africans with the Moors
    the Moors are something of the past, they are neither todays Spaniards nor todays North Africans
    their cultural identity was something completely different
    and I am not an expert in history, but there even is not such thing like 'The Moors', because the Moors of the 8th century were quite different from the Moors of the 14th century
    Moors are just Berbers that have been arabanized from after the end of the Roman and Vandal periods
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    They look like they have origins in Lebanon and Syria.

    It's pretty funny how the media jumped all over the apparent fact that Romans were very similar to people from this region. These guys compromised a mere 14.5% of Imperial Roman samples, and that is after the researchers purposefully excavated the most cosmopolitan areas that they could possibly find.

    C5) Middle East
    RMPR1551, RMPR67, RMPR68, RMPR42, RMPR1547, RMPR1550, RMPR70

    Where will sample R1 fit.....a proto-villanovan

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Where will sample R1 fit.....a proto-villanovan
    The Proto-Villanovan is part of the West Mediterranean cluster (C1).

    Distance to: ITA_Proto-Villanovan
    0.02247622 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02469763 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02693698 Italian_Bergamo
    0.02854606 Italian_Liguria
    0.02981491 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03032773 Italian_Veneto
    0.03042507 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03150689 Swiss_Italian
    0.03187754 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03430165 Italian_Northeast

  20. #595
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    The Proto-Villanovan is part of the Western Mediterranean cluster (C1).

    Distance to: ITA_Proto-Villanovan
    0.02247622 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02469763 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02693698 Italian_Bergamo
    0.02854606 Italian_Liguria
    0.02981491 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03032773 Italian_Veneto
    0.03042507 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03150689 Swiss_Italian
    0.03187754 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03430165 Italian_Northeast
    thanks .....i cannot tick you as it keeps saying I am a guest

    I wonder if you can match this R1 ( picene) sample with I3313 ( dalmatian ) as these are my top 2 matches...with R1 a full 2 points clear

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    The Proto-Villanovan is part of the West Mediterranean cluster (C1).

    Distance to: ITA_Proto-Villanovan
    0.02247622 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02469763 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02693698 Italian_Bergamo
    0.02854606 Italian_Liguria
    0.02981491 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03032773 Italian_Veneto
    0.03042507 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03150689 Swiss_Italian
    0.03187754 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03430165 Italian_Northeast

    Where does Greek Thessaly's value come from? The Greeks in the G25 are certainly mostly from Northern Greece but there is no Greek Thessaly label anywhere in G25.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Where will sample R1 fit.....a proto-villanovan
    In the PCA Proto-Villanovan plots in Italian_Piedmont's cluster, a little bit to the east.



    Distances. Distances are never exactly the same as the PCA because the G25 is based on coordinates and this PCA is 2D.



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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Where does Greek Thessaly's value come from? The Greeks in the G25 are certainly mostly from Northern Greece but there is no Greek Thessaly label anywhere in G25.
    They were updated today.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    They were updated today.
    I didn't know that. Davidski's always changing his averages, who knows why.

    He didn't update them, he just changed the labels, those three samples from Thessaly had already been uploaded into the Greek cluster.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The PCA with all individual results of ITA_Rome_Imperial. In the second PCA the cluster of ITA_Rome_Imperial.

    individual results




    cluster


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