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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    3 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I ran a K-means cluster analysis on the Imperial Romans in PAST (data program for PCA�s, neighbor joining trees and other analysis). I removed the obvious outlier samples that fell somewhere long the MENA cline. I then asked the program to divide the remaining samples into 4 distinct clusters based on their genetic correlation before working out the average of these different cluster groups. Once the centroid had been found I ran those coordinates against the Global 25 datasheet to find their closest population representatives; they happened to coincide with certain genetic locations for the most part.

    C1) West Mediterranean
    RMPR37, RMPR111, RMPR116

    C2) Aegean
    RMPR39, RMPR40, RMPR41,RMPR43, RMPR44, RMPR50, RMPR51, RMPR66, RMPR69, RMPR72, RMPR75, RMPR78, RMPR81, RMPR114, RMPR115, RMPR123, RMPR126, RMPR1543, RMPR1545

    C3) Anatolia
    RMPR38, RMPR128, RMPR76

    C4) South Italy
    RMPR45, RMPR47, RMPR49, RMPR73, RMPR80, RMPR113, RMPR125, RMPR131, RMPR132, RMPR436, RMPR835, RMPR836, RMPR1544, RMPR1548, RMPR1549


    This is what these clusters look like on the PCA:

    Roman PCA.jpg

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    Thanks for the info LTG, this is what I get for the imperial samples:

    C1) West Mediterranean:

    0


    C2) Aegean:

    8. Imperial Rome Empire Via Paisiello (100 AD) ..... 10.81 - R114 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    22. Imperial Rome Centocelle (200 AD) ..... 12.66 - R51 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    24. Imperial Rome ANAS (200 AD) ..... 12.77 - R69 -
    Top 99% match vs all users


    29. Hellenic Roman Empire VP (100 AD) ..... 13.72 - R115 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    32. Imperial Rome Centocelle (190 AD) ..... 14.51 - R50 -
    Top 97% match vs all users


    33. Anatolian Roman Necropolis MR (200 AD) ..... 14.51 - R1543 -
    Top 97% match vs all users


    36. Hellenic Roman Necropolis MR (200 AD) ..... 14.6 - R1545 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    47. Imperial Rome Viale Rossini (100 AD) ..... 15.42 - R75 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    48. Anatolian Roman Isola Sacra (200 AD) ..... 15.55 - R43 -
    Top 99% match vs all users


    68. Anatolian Roman Casale del Dolce (288 AD) ..... 17.19 - R126 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    72. Imperial Rome Isola Sacra (99 AD) ..... 17.31 - R39 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    76. Hellenic/Anatolian Roman ANAS (200 AD) ..... 18.65 - R66 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    84. Anatolian Roman Viale Rossini (100 AD) ..... 19.23 - R78 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    86. Anatolian Roman ANAS (200 AD) ..... 19.39 - R72 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    C3) Anatolian:


    54. Anatolian Roman Viale Rossini (100 AD) ..... 16.11 - R76 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    65. Roman Empire Casale del Dolce (200 AD) ..... 17.15 - R128 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    93. Anatolian Roman Isola Sacra (200 AD) ..... 20.58 - R38 -
    Top 97% match vs all users


    C4) Southern Italian:


    1. Hellenic Roman Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 6.842 - R1548 -
    Top 99% match vs all users


    6. Roman Imperial Palestrina (100 AD) ..... 10.29 - R436 -
    Top 99% match vs all users


    11. Hellenic Roman ANAS (200 AD) ..... 11.47 - R73 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    15. Imperial Rome Centocelle (200 AD) ..... 12.2 - R49 -
    Top 97% match vs all users


    16. Imperial Rome Centocelle (282 AD) ..... 12.28 - R47 -
    Top 98% match vs all users


    23. Central Roman Casale del Dolce (200 AD) ..... 12.7 - R125 -
    Top 99% match vs all users


    26. Central Roman Necropolis MR (200 AD) ..... 13.32 - R1544 -
    Top 99% match vs all users


    27. Imperial Rome Marche CN (165 AD) ..... 13.46 - R835 -
    Top 97% match vs all users


    66. Imperial Rome Isola Sacra (200 AD) ..... 17.17 - R45 -
    Top 96% match vs all users


    74. Imperial Rome Via Paisiello (100 AD) ..... 17.63 - R131 -
    Top 95% match vs all users




    C5) Middle Eastern:


    62. Roman Outlier Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 17.03 - R1550 -
    Top 97% match vs all users


    91. Canaanite Roman Empire Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 20.35 - R1547 -
    Top 96% match vs all users

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Of the Imperial samples ( I get more from other eras) these are the ones I match with Deep Dive. Just Aegean, and Southern Italian samples, which makes perfect sense.:

    C1) West Mediterranean:

    0

    C2) Aegean: 9 total matches

    *8. Imperial Rome Empire Via Paisiello (100 AD) ..... 10.81 - R114 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    *22. Imperial Rome Centocelle (200 AD) ..... 12.66 - R51 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    *24. Imperial Rome ANAS (200 AD) ..... 12.77 - R69 -
    Top 99% match vs all users

    *32. Imperial Rome Centocelle (190 AD) ..... 14.51 - R50 -
    Top 97% match vs all users

    *33. Anatolian Roman Necropolis MR (200 AD) ..... 14.51 - R1543 -
    Top 97% match vs all users

    *36. Hellenic Roman Necropolis MR (200 AD) ..... 14.6 - R1545 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    *47. Imperial Rome Viale Rossini (100 AD) ..... 15.42 - R75 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    *48. Anatolian Roman Isola Sacra (200 AD) ..... 15.55 - R43 -
    Top 99% match vs all users

    *72. Imperial Rome Isola Sacra (99 AD) ..... 17.31 - R39 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    C3) Anatolian:

    0

    C4) Southern Italian: 6 total matches

    *1. Hellenic Roman Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 6.842 - R1548 -
    Top 99% match vs all users

    *6. Roman Imperial Palestrina (100 AD) ..... 10.29 - R436 -
    Top 99% match vs all users

    *11. Hellenic Roman ANAS (200 AD) ..... 11.47 - R73 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    *16. Imperial Rome Centocelle (282 AD) ..... 12.28 - R47 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    *26. Central Roman Necropolis MR (200 AD) ..... 13.32 - R1544 -
    Top 99% match vs all users

    *66. Imperial Rome Isola Sacra (200 AD) ..... 17.17 - R45 -
    Top 96% match vs all users

    C5) Middle Eastern:

    0


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    West Med cluster
    R37 11.47

    Aegean cluster:
    R114 14.17 (Using K=15, mta says it’s closest modern pop. Is Abruzzo)
    R51 13.0 (mta says closest is West Sicilian, then Tuscan)

    No hits in the Anatolia cluster

    South Italy cluster:
    R47 13.49 (mta says Tuscan is closest)
    R835-7.875 (mta says Tuscans are the closest


    What happened to the following samples?
    R1540 9.166 (mta says Tuscan)
    R117 10.85 (mta says West Sicilian then Tuscan)
    R136 Hellenic Roman Italian 13.52 (mta says Abruzzo)
    R118 14.49 (mta says North Italian, but at quite a distance)


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    West Med cluster
    R37 11.47

    Aegean cluster:
    R114 14.17 (Using K=15, mta says it’s closest modern pop. Is Abruzzo)
    R51 13.0 (mta says closest is West Sicilian, then Tuscan)

    No hits in the Anatolia cluster

    South Italy cluster:
    R47 13.49 (mta says Tuscan is closest)
    R835-7.875 (mta says Tuscans are the closest


    What happened to the following samples?
    R1540 9.166 (mta says Tuscan)
    R117 10.85 (mta says West Sicilian then Tuscan)
    R136 Hellenic Roman Italian 13.52 (mta says Abruzzo)
    R118 14.49 (mta says North Italian, but at quite a distance)

    14.17, 13.0, 13.49, 9.166, 10.85... are still significant distances which means that there is no best fit on MTA.

    MTA is nothing more than Eurogenes K15 with the old spreadsheet of K15, to which MTA is adding the ancient samples.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    14.17, 13.0, 13.49, 9.166, 10.85... are still significant distances which means that there is no best fit on MTA.
    MTA is nothing more than Eurogenes K15 with the old spreadsheet of K15, to which MTA is adding the ancient samples.
    They claim the modern pop labels were borrowed from K15 for comparison, but that the similarities end here, i.e., that it's not based on it. We supposedly could notice it by checking the results for anyone with partial non-European backgrounds, who would get more accurate ones. However, I wonder if it was not just a matter of dividing certain K15 clusters and adding pop references. Anyway, it seems they're working on new and better tools. We'll see.

    Finally, all that said, being based on a calculator such K15 wouldn't be so bad in my opinion. Even if the clusters are not de per si that informative, they can be used as a whole for clues on general similarities (not necessarily direct ancestry only), and, importantly, that's actually how a simple Oracle works. It tries to identify your closest pop using your own results and also references, based on relevant clusters. Of course, here we're talking also on ancient (and low coverage) individuals, so this "MTA Oracle" seems more subjected to "convergences", or accidental (super)approximations, as noticed in my own results but not in my parents' (for the same ancient individual). I mean, this "Illyrian continuity" would be impossible. The fact we're too close evidences we're not that close, je je, given all movements in N. Italy in the last 3000 years. Which doesn't mean the results are totally off, or that there is not a general (relative) similarity between us, due to direct ancestry, shared ancestry or both. I say "relative" because the references are still modern, and the calculator will try to do the fitting anyway. I just think the distances should not be seen in "absolute sense", nor against moderns. They seem more informative in their own context, against other ancients', especially when the distances are too different. Seen this way, they'd look more informative, which is shown by the somewhat "coherent" results people from different areas get. But I agree the results should not be taken "literaly", as any other Autosomal test (for example, I'm certainly not x% NW European, Greek or Iberian in ancestry, as some commercial tests could suggest). At the end, MTA is one more tool for clues, and particularly I have a more limited interest on it (so much so I haven't bought it yet). And it's certainly fun.
    PS: I'd prefer K36 for this job, but unfortunately it's associated to certain "overfits". Perhaps it'd be better in some cases, but this "K15-like calculator" (lol) probably works better than K36 "in general".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    14.17, 13.0, 13.49, 9.166, 10.85... are still significant distances which means that there is no best fit on MTA.

    MTA is nothing more than Eurogenes K15 with the old spreadsheet of K15, to which MTA is adding the ancient samples.
    Yes, so I've heard numerous times.

    The point is that LTG's analysis puts, for example, R47 and R835 in Southern Italy, whereas the K15 is putting them in Tuscany.

    So, there is no agreement between methods.

    Plus, why were some samples not included?

    On a related topic, do the rest of us really have to be at the mercy of someone who includes or doesn't include samples, changes labels, changes the numbers for reasons unknown to anyone else, who has a documented history for bias and massaging the data?

    No one else in the amateur community is capable of creating a program like the G25? Someone who inspires more confidence? Is that really true? Even in terms of mta, there was no option but to use the K=15? That's why I don't take those numbers as gospel. I only have to take a look at the horrible fit they give me in the modern populations section to North Italians and Tuscans to know that. I get much better fits in other calculators.

    Ed. @Regio.

    We cross posted. :)

    Well, mta may be denying they're using K=15, but the modern fits they give for me are the same as I get for K=15, and they're among the worst I've gotten in any of the calculators.

    I realize none of these numbers is meant to be carved in stone, but you'd expect a few differences if they're really different methods.

    As for the comparison between the analysis of LTG and mta, I quite understand there will be differences between methods, but placing Tuscans in Southern Italy is not exactly minor.

    Nor is the absence of certain samples going to help. I'm going to check those again. I was in a food coma from too much turkey and fat and carbs, so maybe there's some obvious reason they're not included which I missed. :) Or it may be an oversight.

    If they actually should be included, I would think the analysis has to be redone.

    Ed.#2

    I pointed out way back in post #62 that the authors should have at least divided up the samples by burial site and checked for similarity in autosomal composition. That would have alerted them to the fact that they might be getting samples from an "ethnic" enclave. If you're sampling in the Bronx 1500 years from now, you're going to get all Amerindian(maybe), all Dutch and English, pockets of Italian, Jewish, Irish, and then mostly Puerto Rican. If you're sampling in the Upper East Side you'd find a completely different mix.

    Some of the burial sites in the paper definitely look like that, whereas others are more local or a mix.

    No excuse for leaving it to the amateur community to figure that out.
    Last edited by Angela; 29-11-19 at 15:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    West Med cluster
    R37 11.47

    Aegean cluster:
    R114 14.17 (Using K=15, mta says it’s closest modern pop. Is Abruzzo)
    R51 13.0 (mta says closest is West Sicilian, then Tuscan)

    No hits in the Anatolia cluster

    South Italy cluster:
    R47 13.49 (mta says Tuscan is closest)
    R835-7.875 (mta says Tuscans are the closest


    What happened to the following samples?
    R1540 9.166 (mta says Tuscan)
    R117 10.85 (mta says West Sicilian then Tuscan)
    R136 Hellenic Roman Italian 13.52 (mta says Abruzzo)
    R118 14.49 (mta says North Italian, but at quite a distance)
    This may be a result of me just using K=4 to categorize the samples. I also used population individuals rather than averages unlike this oracle, which could create a situation where, say, six of the top ten closest matches are Cretans and the other four are South Italians leading to the sample being placed in the "Aegean" cluster. The distances here suggest that the Roman samples are going to be really hard to categorize without upgrading the amount of clusters in the analysis.

    I searched for those samples listed in the datasheet and they are from Late Antiquity.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, so I've heard numerous times.

    The point is that LTG's analysis puts, for example, R47 and R835 in Southern Italy, whereas the K15 is putting them in Tuscany.

    So, there is no agreement between methods.

    These are all certainly imprecise tools and I totally agree with you that there is no agreement between methods but on the basis of the distances I would not say that MTA is putting R47 and R835 in Tuscany.

    The Italian breakdown of MTA (which is identical to that of K15) is incomplete and so the results of MTA should also be interpreted on the basis of distances.

    If LGT puts them in the south of Italy, it is because in the G25 these samples come out closer to the south of Italy, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    There is no linguistic association between the etruscans and lydians of anatolia......the lydians where still in anatolia circa 500bc fighting against phyrgians.....still no association with etruscans......we should expect something berween the 2 if they are linked
    Akways this way of reading only isolated words in a post (No offense, not only you, helas!)! This rots the threads. Have you read what I wrote?
    Are you thinkng I'm so ignorant that I did not know this. Here we are speaking of ancient localizations of pops or tribes or bands, not of their language. I was trying to find an excuse for Herodotus, not saying what he wrote in his time was gospel! It seams that at those times of "Sea people", a lot of bands could have had settlements on the shores, for some time at least. I don't make a link between supposed Etruscans and Lydians who spoke anI-E language. Do read correctly!
    Phillistins were not Jews nor Canaanians or who else, but they settled some time the shores of Levant, spite they were I-E speaking and surely come from around today Macedonia or not too far from there (maybe through Creta, according to some opinions).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    West Med cluster
    R37 11.47

    Aegean cluster:
    R114 14.17 (Using K=15, mta says it’s closest modern pop. Is Abruzzo)
    R51 13.0 (mta says closest is West Sicilian, then Tuscan)

    No hits in the Anatolia cluster

    South Italy cluster:
    R47 13.49 (mta says Tuscan is closest)
    R835-7.875 (mta says Tuscans are the closest


    What happened to the following samples?
    R1540 9.166 (mta says Tuscan)
    R117 10.85 (mta says West Sicilian then Tuscan)
    R136 Hellenic Roman Italian 13.52 (mta says Abruzzo)
    R118 14.49 (mta says North Italian, but at quite a distance)
    They are a mix of Imperial age samples and Late Antiquity samples.

    In G25 PCA Rome_Imperial:RMPR37 plots with the Basques. Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118 plots between Lazio and Umbria.

    The rest instead plot with Southern Italy: Rome_Imperial:RMPR114, Rome_Imperial:RMPR51, Rome_Imperial:RMPR47, Rome_Imperial:RMPR835, Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117, Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136, Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118.

    I didn't find R1540.









    Their distances

    Rome_Imperial:RMPR37




    Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118




    Rome_Imperial:RMPR114




    Rome_Imperial:RMPR51




    Rome_Imperial:RMPR47




    Rome_Imperial:RMPR835




    Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117




    Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136

    

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    OK, I guess it was too much tryptophan. :) Apologies.

    Do you know of any reason why 1540 would not be in the G25?
    8. Roman Empire Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 8.697 - R1540
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (9.676)
    2. North_Italian (11.30)
    3. West_Sicilian (12.40)
    4. Italian_Abruzzo (14.23)
    5. Spanish_Murcia (15.43)
    6. Spanish_Extremadura (16.02)
    7. Spanish_Andalucia (16.54)
    8. Portuguese (16.89)



    This is what I meant...
    11. Imperial Rome Marche CN (165 AD) ..... 9.561 - R835 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (7.875)
    2. West_Sicilian (10.61)
    3. Italian_Abruzzo (11.29)
    4. North_Italian (11.81)
    5. East_Sicilian (13.82)
    6. South_Italian (13.88)
    7. Central_Greek (13.94)
    8. Greek_Thessaly (15.00)



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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    OK, I guess it was too much tryptophan. :) Apologies.

    Do you know of any reason why 1540 would not be in the G25?
    8. Roman Empire Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 8.697 - R1540


    I suppose because there is no R1540 at all from Monterotondo in the paper. Something is wrong here at the start (wrong labelling? Or also something else?). We see many mistakes in the academic papers, so let alone in these amateur tools.






    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is what I meant...
    11. Imperial Rome Marche CN (165 AD) ..... 9.561 - R835 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link

    That's probably a mistake too or a lack of accuracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ed. @Regio.

    We cross posted. :)

    Well, mta may be denying they're using K=15, but the modern fits they give for me are the same as I get for K=15, and they're among the worst I've gotten in any of the calculators.

    I realize none of these numbers is meant to be carved in stone, but you'd expect a few differences if they're really different methods.

    As for the comparison between the analysis of LTG and mta, I quite understand there will be differences between methods, but placing Tuscans in Southern Italy is not exactly minor.

    Nor is the absence of certain samples going to help. I'm going to check those again. I was in a food coma from too much turkey and fat and carbs, so maybe there's some obvious reason they're not included which I missed. :) Or it may be an oversight.

    If they actually should be included, I would think the analysis has to be redone.
    I completely understand the bias which you usually refer to. It's relevant, and the calculator matters, as my post suggests. But I was more focused on the methodology per se, on how the tool supposedly works. Being based on K15 wouldn't necessarily mean it's not a good tool. That was the main point.

    Yes, it's likely an "adaptation" of K15, but it could be based on an adaptation of Dodecad v3, or whatever. :) It should supposedly work at least in a similar way. See those "similarity maps" based on K36. I get high %s precisely with N. Italians. That's kind of an Oracle too, and it worked decently for "similarities".

    If my memory serves, I don't get good Oracle results with v3, btw, but I suppose the problem may be just the abscence of more "populations", as North Italians (my closest in K15).

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Moesan hypothesis about Tyrrhenians / Etruscans relationship in terms of Ethnonymy is not necessarily wrong. It's a bit awkward in terms of Linguistic considering Lydians were Indo-Europeans and Etruscans not, but an Ethnonym dont necessarily have to do with Linguistic. Also, Tyrrhenian being a Xenonym coming from the Greek, it could have described originally a ethne unrelated with Ethnic Etruscans and adopted by Italics. Dont forget that Etruscans called themselves Rasenna. Now, let's not think too much that ancient people were stupid or that they did not encounter the peoples they talk about to know a little bit about them. After all, Greeks called themselves Acheans, Danaans, Dorians, Eolians, Ionians, Hellens... Maybe Tyrrhenian effectively was a synonym related with Etruscan ( ethnically speaking ), but will we ever know one day?
    I was trying to put some bits of testimonies in the game, but look at an answer I made to Torzio. I never said Etrsucans/Tyrsenoi was the same thing as Luwians (even drunk I would not say that), I just said they could have been "neighbours" (in what kind of contacts,???) or have occupied close regions in W-Anatolia at some stage of history. But it's a marginal side of the topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You are trying to find a plausible reading to a story like that of Herodotus that does not contain historical facts. Herodotus is the first to attribute it to others.

    You can't discuss these things without having read what etruscologists and classicists have written in more than 100 years.

    The stories about the Etruscan origins are symbolic and reflect the Greek mentality of the time. Writing that the Etruscans were of Lydian origin to the Greeks meant that Etruscans came from a world similar to their own. The first to be oriental are the Greeks themselves, as they are also physically closer to Anatolia than to Etruria. Greeks had colonies in Anatolia and lived in close contact with the Anatolian peoples, with whom they shared many things, starting with the Indo-European language. The Lydia of Herodotus' time is strongly Hellenized and at the same time under Persian rule, while the Etruscans had dominated Rome for centuries, and were the most powerful in Italy, or among the most powerful in the centuries before when the story of Herodotus is written.

    The story of the Pelasgian origins of the Etruscans was also a way of trying to connect the Etruscans to the Greeks. When Dionysius finally tells the truth (his history on the Etruscans is the only one to contain information that has proved to be true), he does not do so in a disinterested manner. In fact, the Etruscans are recognized for their antiquity and autochthony, while Dionysius this time connects ethnically the Romans to the Greeks. Why does Dionysius do so? Because the Etruscans had now completely lost their power, while Rome was about to become one of the most powerful empires ever. The Greeks now had an interest in connecting themselves directly to the Romans and no longer to the Etruscans.
    Interesting post.
    But it'snot so complicated here.
    only valid questions:
    -Have Trs/Teresh/Tyrsenoi a link with CNW Italy (Toscane and around)?
    - Are Hittits writings and Egyptians writings withot any value concerning the same people + Shardana, and their supposed locations?
    Here we don't speak of Greek legends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Interesting post.
    But it'snot so complicated here.
    only valid questions:
    -Have Trs/Teresh/Tyrsenoi a link with CNW Italy (Toscane and around)?
    - Are Hittits writings and Egyptians writings withot any value concerning the same people + Shardana, and their supposed locations?
    Here we don't speak of Greek legends.
    CNW Italy you meant Central-North-Western Italy? Right?

    It's not known for sure if Trs/Teresh/Tyrsenoi are all the same people, there is also a suspicion that Tyrsenoi in Greek sources may not always refer to the Etruscans. This issue has been discussed for many years.

    The Sea People are a highly speculative argument, because archaeologically there is little or nothing, beyond that line of research carried out by some archaeologists according to which we can actually assume raids from Italy to the Aegean and the Levant in the second half of the Bronze Age. There is a growing consensus that many of these Sea People came from Italy. But from here on to the Etruscans, it's a good jump, although one of the Bronze Age weapons found in the Aegean and Levant, comes from one of the Bronze Age facies that belongs to the ethnogenesis of the Proto-Etruscans. But once again also in this case the Etruscans do not differ much from the other peoples of northern and central Italy, because this type of findings also exist for others.


    We talked about it here


    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...he-Sea-Peoples


    This is also a worth reading

    A Sword of Naue II Type from Ugaritand the Historical Significance of Italian-type Weaponry in the Eastern Mediterranean


    https://www.academia.edu/225687/M._M...8_2008_111_136

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Akways this way of reading only isolated words in a post (No offense, not only you, helas!)! This rots the threads. Have you read what I wrote?
    Are you thinkng I'm so ignorant that I did not know this. Here we are speaking of ancient localizations of pops or tribes or bands, not of their language. I was trying to find an excuse for Herodotus, not saying what he wrote in his time was gospel! It seams that at those times of "Sea people", a lot of bands could have had settlements on the shores, for some time at least. I don't make a link between supposed Etruscans and Lydians who spoke anI-E language. Do read correctly!
    Phillistins were not Jews nor Canaanians or who else, but they settled some time the shores of Levant, spite they were I-E speaking and surely come from around today Macedonia or not too far from there (maybe through Creta, according to some opinions).
    I did not try to offend ...........but people migrated and sometimes they changed the culture of where they arrived and sometimes they did not..........but people think that the european system of when people moved, is that they completed abandoned their original settlement, they did not...........so for lydians to be associated with etruscans as per herodutus, then we need to find some link as they both existed circa 500BC, there is no link
    I understand that new migrants merged into people in new areas and ruled these areas but did not change anything ........example the Danes, took over Normandy, but accepted the Norman language and culture circa 900AD

    We have Goths from the baltic sea, migrated to the black sea, migrated to the west over 700 plus years, but still some goths remained where they began or first moved even after they arrived in italy and iberia

    It is tiring to listen to people ...think that ...migration means abandoning the old settlement and everyone moving to a new one
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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    They are a mix of Imperial age samples and Late Antiquity samples.

    In G25 PCA Rome_Imperial:RMPR37 plots with the Basques. Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118 plots between Lazio and Umbria.

    The rest instead plot with Southern Italy: Rome_Imperial:RMPR114, Rome_Imperial:RMPR51, Rome_Imperial:RMPR47, Rome_Imperial:RMPR835, Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117, Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136, Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118.

    I didn't find R1540.









    Their distances

    Rome_Imperial:RMPR37




    Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118




    Rome_Imperial:RMPR114




    Rome_Imperial:RMPR51




    Rome_Imperial:RMPR47




    Rome_Imperial:RMPR835




    Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117




    Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136

    

    Can we get a split of only republican or earlier samples and leave roman empire samples or later for another thread/post?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    We're discussing the entire paper on this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I was trying to put some bits of testimonies in the game, but look at an answer I made to Torzio. I never said Etrsucans/Tyrsenoi was the same thing as Luwians (even drunk I would not say that), I just said they could have been "neighbours" (in what kind of contacts,???) or have occupied close regions in W-Anatolia at some stage of history. But it's a marginal side of the topic.
    I get what you mean. I dont think Herodotus was necessarily wrong, he only lived 700-800 years after the times of the bronze collapse and sea peoples. He was closer to them in age that us from Charlemagne. Contrasted with Plato and the Atlantid, Herodotus was a man of History and Geography, he lived short after Cresus King of Lydia wich Kingdom probably was big and up the the Aegean Sea and Greek world, ancient legends and contemporary to him, could have influence his jugement. The fact that we have the decency to say " he lied, he was wrong, modern historian [ knows ] what He said and Why he said it " are a little bit pretentious. I think there can be a link between Etruscans and Tyrrhenians, i mean this study even shows that ancient Italians had huge impact of a population close to Mycaneans, and nobody makes the link with Aegean Sea, Lemnian Language, Western Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I get what you mean. I dont think Herodotus was necessarily wrong, he only lived 700-800 years after the times of the bronze collapse and sea peoples. He was closer to them in age that us from Charlemagne. Contrasted with Plato and the Atlantid, Herodotus was a man of History and Geography, he lived short after Cresus King of Lydia wich Kingdom probably was big and up the the Aegean Sea and Greek world, ancient legends and contemporary to him, could have influence his jugement. The fact that we have the decency to say " he lied, he was wrong, modern historian [ knows ] what He said and Why he said it " are a little bit pretentious. I think there can be a link between Etruscans and Tyrrhenians, i mean this study even shows that ancient Italians had huge impact of a population close to Mycaneans, and nobody makes the link with Aegean Sea, Lemnian Language, Western Anatolia.
    You haven't even read Herodotus' text, nor the comments of contemporary scholars on what Herodotus wrote. It has nothing to do with Herodotus being right or wrong, it is not Herodotus' opinion nor his judgment. Herodotus reports what "Lydians" say. While in the case of Dionysius of Halicarnassus that's really his opinion.

    The island of Lemnos is part of the Greek world, the names in the inscriptions in the Lemnian language belong mainly to Greek onomastics. The guy in the Lemnos stele is a Greek Phocean. The alphabet used in Lemnos to write inscriptions is the most common in Greece and Italy and not the one used in Asia Minor.

    The connection between Etruscans and Tyrrhenians has nothing to do with the Lydians, as the Lydians are never called Tyrrhenian. It is the Pelasgians who are sometimes associated and confused with the Tyrrhenians, this is just another story line.

    Following the chronology of the story reported by Herodotus, which is based on the classic narrative model of Greek colonial foundation, we can date the facts to before 1200 BC. The problem is that there is no archaeological evidence of this mass migration.

    It is really unlikely that the Lydians kept memory of events that happened 800 years ago, events never mentioned before by other authors and ignored even by Lydian historians. This people migrated from Lydia did not even speak the Lydian, since there is now enormous linguistic consensus that the Etruscan language and Lydia language are not related.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is the kind of filth we have to deal with day after day. This deranged Romanian is a perfect example of it.

    I'm leaving it up so you can see the kind of ethnic slurs and racism that come bubbling up when people can hide behind sock accounts on the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You haven't even read Herodotus' text, nor the comments of contemporary scholars on what Herodotus wrote. It has nothing to do with Herodotus being right or wrong, it is not Herodotus' opinion nor his judgment. Herodotus reports what "Lydians" say. While in the case of Dionysius of Halicarnassus that's really his opinion.

    The island of Lemnos is part of the Greek world, the names in the inscriptions in the Lemnian language belong mainly to Greek onomastics. The guy in the Lemnos stele is a Greek Phocean. The alphabet used in Lemnos to write inscriptions is the most common in Greece and Italy and not the one used in Asia Minor.

    The connection between Etruscans and Tyrrhenians has nothing to do with the Lydians, as the Lydians are never called Tyrrhenian. It is the Pelasgians who are sometimes associated and confused with the Tyrrhenians, this is just another story line.

    Following the chronology of the story reported by Herodotus, which is based on the classic narrative model of Greek colonial foundation, we can date the facts to before 1200 BC. The problem is that there is no archaeological evidence of this mass migration.

    It is really unlikely that the Lydians kept memory of events that happened 800 years ago, events never mentioned before by other authors and ignored even by Lydian historians. This people migrated from Lydia did not even speak the Lydian, since there is now enormous linguistic consensus that the Etruscan language and Lydia language are not related.
    The story line is that Tyrrhenus wich was a Lydian, went to Italy with his people called Tyrrhenians. The whole point of the hypothesis is the mythical or historical ( for modern pov ) pov of ancient greeks about Etruscans and the similar language of etruscans and lemnians. It's even wrote somewhere that the language of Lemnos was not Greek. The fact that Lydian language and Etruscan language are not similar is kinda clear, but it doesn't really mean anything, Neustrian Franks spoked Gallo-Roman and Austrasian Franks spoked Old Frankish, but they where all Franks. We are visualing an epoch ( -1200 / -1100 ) where ethnogenesis and indoeuropeanization were probably not complete. In the exemple of Pelasgians wich were probably not IE speaking peoples, would be related with peoples who are IE speaking peoples, because all people of a geographic area are related. Why would it be unlikely that Lydians lost memory??? This is highly speculative, has they already used Writing by this time. You make too much of a difference between Aegean World and Whole Anatolia, they might have been closer in ancestry and culture that with the most Central and Eastern Anatolians. If we should write ancient history only by the sole fragments that we have from the past, then we can wright everything and nothing. I trust ancient authors way more than modern scientists, Colonial Rethoric doesn't equal Probably Made Up. It's just a POV that we can accept or refute.

    How notice the high prevalence of Aegean Ancestry in ancient Italy is not a clue about " mass migration " wich the mass part is not even needed in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    CNW Italy you meant Central-North-Western Italy? Right?

    It's not known for sure if Trs/Teresh/Tyrsenoi are all the same people, there is also a suspicion that Tyrsenoi in Greek sources may not always refer to the Etruscans. This issue has been discussed for many years.

    The Sea People are a highly speculative argument, because archaeologically there is little or nothing, beyond that line of research carried out by some archaeologists according to which we can actually assume raids from Italy to the Aegean and the Levant in the second half of the Bronze Age. There is a growing consensus that many of these Sea People came from Italy. But from here on to the Etruscans, it's a good jump, although one of the Bronze Age weapons found in the Aegean and Levant, comes from one of the Bronze Age facies that belongs to the ethnogenesis of the Proto-Etruscans. But once again also in this case the Etruscans do not differ much from the other peoples of northern and central Italy, because this type of findings also exist for others.


    We talked about it here


    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...he-Sea-Peoples


    This is also a worth reading

    A Sword of Naue II Type from Ugaritand the Historical Significance of Italian-type Weaponry in the Eastern Mediterranean


    https://www.academia.edu/225687/M._M...8_2008_111_136
    I prefer this answer of yours than the first one you made about Greek legends.

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