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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    Interesting similarities to other ancient samples.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The story line is that Tyrrhenus wich was a Lydian, went to Italy with his people called Tyrrhenians.
    The first Greek source to mention the Tyrrhenians is Hesiod, many centuries before Herodotus. Hesiod makes no mention of an eastern origin of the Tyrrhenians and places them exactly in central Italy close to the Latins. There is no other ancient source before Herodotus that associates the Tyrrhenians with the Lydians. Also for the Herodotus' story, the Tyrrhenians are those who are in Italy, not in Lydia.

    As reported by Dionysius, Xantos of Lydia, the historian considered the highest authority in the history of the Lydians, makes no mention of Tyrrhenus as son of Atis, or of a Lydian colonization in Italy. As many scholars have pointed out, the Herodotus' story is based on false etymologies. It is not Herodotus' fault, since he reports what others had said.

    In fact, according to Xantos of Lydia, Atis' sons were Lydus and Torebus and they, "having divided the kingdom they had inherited from their father, both remained in Asia, and from them the nations over which they reigned. (...) "From Lydus are sprung the Lydians, and from Torebus the Torebians. There is little difference in their language and even now each nation scoffs at many words used by the other, even as do the Ionians and Dorians."

    By mistake, Torebus and the Torebians have become Tyrrhenus and the Tyrrhenians. But Torebus and the Torebians were clearly not Tyrrhenus and the Tyrrhenians.

    Xantos of Lydia reported by Dionysius:

    "But Xanthus of Lydia, who was as well acquainted with ancient history as any man and who may be regarded as an authority second to none on the history of his own country, neither names Tyrrhenus in any part of his history as a ruler of the Lydians nor knows anything of the landing of a colony of Maeonians in Italy; nor does he make the least mention of Tyrrhenia as a Lydian colony, though he takes notice of several things of less importance. He says that Lydus and Torebus were the sons of Atys; that they, having divided the kingdom they had inherited from their father, both remained in Asia, and from them the nations over which they reigned received their names. His words are these: "From Lydus are sprung the Lydians, and from Torebus the Torebians. There is little difference in their language and even now each nation scoffs at many words used by the other, even as do the Ionians and Dorians."


    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The whole point of the hypothesis is the mythical or historical ( for modern pov ) pov of ancient greeks about Etruscans and the similar language of etruscans and lemnians. It's even wrote somewhere that the language of Lemnos was not Greek. The fact that Lydian language and Etruscan language are not similar is kinda clear, but it doesn't really mean anything, Neustrian Franks spoked Gallo-Roman and Austrasian Franks spoked Old Frankish, but they where all Franks. We are visualing an epoch ( -1200 / -1100 ) where ethnogenesis and indoeuropeanization were probably not complete. In the exemple of Pelasgians wich were probably not IE speaking peoples, would be related with peoples who are IE speaking peoples, because all people of a geographic area are related.
    So you're basically turning the whole thing and claiming that the migration from Lydia to Etruria is the one that brought DNA from the steppes. Am I hearing you correctly? Really weird this ethnogenesis of the Etruscans, huh. By magic the Etruscans did not speak Lydian but another language, even pre-Indo-European, which at this point came from the sky.

    There is not a single inscription found in Anatolia that resembles the Lemnian language and then there is the insurmountable problem that there is also the Rhaetian language spoken in the Alps that resembles the Etruscan language, and perhaps even the Camunic language. It is very unlikely that all these languages have come from Anatolia, when in Anatolia there is no inscription similar to these languages and when in Anatolia IE languages are attested long before in Europe, and when Pre-Indoeuropean ancestry constitutes the majority in southern Europe, and also in the rest of Europe remains a very important part.

    Not to mention the fact, that archaeologically it is now widely demonstrated that the Etruscans do not differ from other peoples of pre-Roman Italy, and there is no evidence of the arrival of the Lydians, while there's evidence of contacts with the Mycenaeans.


    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Why would it be unlikely that Lydians lost memory??? This is highly speculative, has they already used Writing by this time. You make too much of a difference between Aegean World and Whole Anatolia, they might have been closer in ancestry and culture that with the most Central and Eastern Anatolians. If we should write ancient history only by the sole fragments that we have from the past, then we can wright everything and nothing.
    If the Lydians are the among the first to learn to write, why then do the Etruscans learn to write only after the Greeks arrive in Italy? As soon as they arrived in Italy, did the Lydians unlearnt to write?

    For the sake of precision, the Lydian language is attested long after the Etruscan language in Italy. It is the Luvian language, among the languages of the Anatolian family, which is the first to be attested using the Anatolian hieroglyphs, a script of which there is no trace in Italy.


    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I trust ancient authors way more than modern scientists, Colonial Rethoric doesn't equal Probably Made Up. It's just a POV that we can accept or refute.
    I perfectly understand that legends have a greater influence on the public's opinion than specialist readings, also because legends are easier to understand, but this is your personal choice. You are obviously free to believe all the fairy tales you want, even in the historical existence of Santa Claus.

    If we believe more in ancient authors, why not also believe in the ancient stories about the origins of other peoples? I think it is odd, to say the least, that only with the Etruscans is it believed that the ancient sources are true.


    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    How notice the high prevalence of Aegean Ancestry in ancient Italy is not a clue about " mass migration " wich the mass part is not even needed in this case.

    Can you show me where this paper speak of high prevalence of Aegean Ancestry in ancient Italy?


    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I prefer this answer of yours than the first one you made about Greek legends.

    I appreciate it. It should be stressed that Greek legends have most likely nothing do to with the Sea People.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post




    Interesting similarities to other ancient samples.

    Why did MTA label the sample from Villa Magna in Lazio as Tuscan?

    I find that this lack of accuracy in the MTA's labels, some are just invented, is indicative of a great ineptitude of those who manage MTA.

    In Italy we have a word that gives a good idea: cialtroneria.

    Jovialis, do you know the real name of the person who runs the MTA?

    It's a shame, because a tool that could be useful is being managed with such shallowness, as if after all they were interested in earning only a few coins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Why did MTA label the sample from Villa Magna in Lazio as Tuscan?

    I find that this lack of accuracy in the MTA's labels, some are just invented, is indicative of a great ineptitude of those who manage MTA.

    In Italy we have a word that gives a good idea: cialtroneria.

    Jovialis, do you know the real name of the person who runs the MTA?

    It's a shame, because a tool that could be useful is being managed with such shallowness, as if after all they were interested in earning only a few coins.
    I do not, but if I did I wouldn't post it in a public forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Why did MTA label the sample from Villa Magna in Lazio as Tuscan?

    I find that this lack of accuracy in the MTA's labels, some are just invented, is indicative of a great ineptitude of those who manage MTA.

    In Italy we have a word that gives a good idea: cialtroneria.

    Jovialis, do you know the real name of the person who runs the MTA?

    It's a shame, because a tool that could be useful is being managed with such shallowness, as if after all they were interested in earning only a few coins.
    Do you mean this one? All the others I match get Tuscans as the closest modern population.


    23. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1110 AD) ..... 10.77 - R64 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Italian_Abruzzo (10.43)
    2. Tuscan (10.47)
    3. West_Sicilian (10.55)
    4. Maltese (12.42)
    5. South_Italian (13.62)
    6. East_Sicilian (13.86)
    7. Central_Greek (14.21)
    8. North_Italian (15.11)

    3. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (905 AD) ..... 6.017 - R60 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (5.034)
    2. Italian_Abruzzo (7.080)
    3. West_Sicilian (8.330)
    4. East_Sicilian (10.69)
    5. Central_Greek (10.77)
    6. North_Italian (11.17)
    7. Greek (11.32)
    8. Kosovan (11.35)



    It's the same reason they label some of the samples from Cordoba Spaniard from Cordoba, or the ones from the Visigothic site either Slavic Visigothic or Spaniard Visigothic.

    Actually, I think it's probably helpful for people who don't know the samples. They're trying to show the "ethnic" composition of the samples. Clearly, there were a lot of Tuscan like people in that particular burial in that particular era, versus Aegean like people or Spanish like people or on and on .

    Some of them are not great matches, of course. All that it indicates, I think, is that people in Lazio might have been closer to Tuscans in the Middle Ages. Migration from Abruzzo and other southern regions might have changed them so that now they skew further south. Of course, who knows, it could have been a bunch of southern Tuscans.

    Without more context from the burials everything is speculative to one degree or another.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't think anyone has ever posted this graphic from the paper:


    Through the Copper Age 45A2 was still at 50%. That seems awfully low for the LP gene, given they eat so much cheese, but I guess that's a bit different, with cheeses having less lactose.

    The changes related to fatty acid metabolism may have begun in the Mesolithic, but they shot up during the Neolithic, as expected.

    Odd that GRM5 was studied. It's almost never used, and it's questionable how much effect it has. They had to go all the way back to Beleza et al for that one.

    I don't get this one either:

    Ergothioneine has antioxidant properties in vitro.[2][23] Under laboratory conditions, it scavenges hydroxyl radicals and hypochlorous acid, inhibits production of oxidants by metal ions,[24][25] and may participate in metal ion transport and regulation of metalloenzymes.[25]
    Although potential effects of ergothioneine are under preliminary research, its physiological role in vivo is unknown.[5]


    Last edited by Angela; 30-11-19 at 20:05.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The first Greek source to mention the Tyrrhenians is Hesiod, many centuries before Herodotus. Hesiod makes no mention of an eastern origin of the Tyrrhenians and places them exactly in central Italy close to the Latins. There is no other ancient source before Herodotus that associates the Tyrrhenians with the Lydians. Also for the Herodotus' story, the Tyrrhenians are those who are in Italy, not in Lydia.

    As reported by Dionysius, Xantos of Lydia, the historian considered the highest authority in the history of the Lydians, makes no mention of Tyrrhenus as son of Atis, or of a Lydian colonization in Italy. As many scholars have pointed out, the Herodotus' story is based on false etymologies. It is not Herodotus' fault, since he reports what others had said.

    In fact, according to Xantos of Lydia, Atis' sons were Lydus and Torebus and they, "having divided the kingdom they had inherited from their father, both remained in Asia, and from them the nations over which they reigned. (...) "From Lydus are sprung the Lydians, and from Torebus the Torebians. There is little difference in their language and even now each nation scoffs at many words used by the other, even as do the Ionians and Dorians."

    By mistake, Torebus and the Torebians have become Tyrrhenus and the Tyrrhenians. But Torebus and the Torebians were clearly not Tyrrhenus and the Tyrrhenians.

    Xantos of Lydia reported by Dionysius:

    "But Xanthus of Lydia, who was as well acquainted with ancient history as any man and who may be regarded as an authority second to none on the history of his own country, neither names Tyrrhenus in any part of his history as a ruler of the Lydians nor knows anything of the landing of a colony of Maeonians in Italy; nor does he make the least mention of Tyrrhenia as a Lydian colony, though he takes notice of several things of less importance. He says that Lydus and Torebus were the sons of Atys; that they, having divided the kingdom they had inherited from their father, both remained in Asia, and from them the nations over which they reigned received their names. His words are these: "From Lydus are sprung the Lydians, and from Torebus the Torebians. There is little difference in their language and even now each nation scoffs at many words used by the other, even as do the Ionians and Dorians."




    So you're basically turning the whole thing and claiming that the migration from Lydia to Etruria is the one that brought DNA from the steppes. Am I hearing you correctly? Really weird this ethnogenesis of the Etruscans, huh. By magic the Etruscans did not speak Lydian but another language, even pre-Indo-European, which at this point came from the sky.

    There is not a single inscription found in Anatolia that resembles the Lemnian language and then there is the insurmountable problem that there is also the Rhaetian language spoken in the Alps that resembles the Etruscan language, and perhaps even the Camunic language. It is very unlikely that all these languages have come from Anatolia, when in Anatolia there is no inscription similar to these languages and when in Anatolia IE languages are attested long before in Europe, and when Pre-Indoeuropean ancestry constitutes the majority in southern Europe, and also in the rest of Europe remains a very important part.

    Not to mention the fact, that archaeologically it is now widely demonstrated that the Etruscans do not differ from other peoples of pre-Roman Italy, and there is no evidence of the arrival of the Lydians, while there's evidence of contacts with the Mycenaeans.




    If the Lydians are the among the first to learn to write, why then do the Etruscans learn to write only after the Greeks arrive in Italy? As soon as they arrived in Italy, did the Lydians unlearnt to write?

    For the sake of precision, the Lydian language is attested long after the Etruscan language in Italy. It is the Luvian language, among the languages of the Anatolian family, which is the first to be attested using the Anatolian hieroglyphs, a script of which there is no trace in Italy.




    I perfectly understand that legends have a greater influence on the public's opinion than specialist readings, also because legends are easier to understand, but this is your personal choice. You are obviously free to believe all the fairy tales you want, even in the historical existence of Santa Claus.

    If we believe more in ancient authors, why not also believe in the ancient stories about the origins of other peoples? I think it is odd, to say the least, that only with the Etruscans is it believed that the ancient sources are true.





    Can you show me where this paper speak of high prevalence of Aegean Ancestry in ancient Italy?





    I appreciate it. It should be stressed that Greek legends have most likely nothing do to with the Sea People.
    1) My point was never to make a link between Anatolians Lydians and Italians Etruscans and Tyrrhenians if this is what you understood. My point was to make a deal between modern hypothesis like linking Lemnian, Rhaetian and Etruscan languages with ancient greek myths, like a kind of syncretic legend between an ancient tribe mainly Tyrrhenians and Etruscans. Like this roman idea that germanic tribes were all originally Suebii, then later different tribe of this ethnogenesis came with different ethnonyms. To me the Lydians in this scenario do only matter because of Geography, old and contemporary myths are overlapping with the conclusion Ancient Tyrrhenians ancestors of contemporary Etruscans came from Lydia = Near Lydia not Lydians.

    2) I have no idea what Steppe ancestry is doing here. You are putting way too much value to those ancestries. Steppe signal will only show us " there was a migration linked to the Steppe ", it doesn't tell us the contemporary political applications. We already knows that Mycanean Greeks and " Anatolians [ if those samples matters ] " did not have much Steppe ancestry even tho they spoked IE languages. Etruscans had their Steppe ancestry from Bell Beaker ancestry in Italy, only by interactions and SEX. What is Mycanean Culture? Why do we assume it was originally a Greek-Speaking Culture, and not a Pelasgian, non-indo european one at some point being lead by IE/Steppe peoples? Bell Beakers were a fusion of steppe and central european neolithic peoples right? And their culture came from Spain, wich had peoples with different genetic ( even tho still linked to EEF ) ancestry right? We have no clue if in the Mycaenean period, the Aegea was populated only by IE and not non-IE speaking people and that Tyrrhenian / Etruscan were not one of them.

    3) The point here is that ancient people Do Not Forgot that much history, especially if they have a Writing system. Why did Lydians believed that Etruscans and Tyrrhenians were coming from Lydia as Lydians in the name of Herodotus Lydians 800 years after the Bronze Age Collapse and the eventual departure of Tyrrhenians to Italy. Was that made up by Herodotus or did Lydians had ancient records of it? As for why Etruscans would have lost the ability to write, probably because if we follow the idea of the Sea Peoples, ancestors of Etruscans were like Mediterranean " Steppe people ", young men in a männerbund trying to found new home by the Sea. And not some kind of elite or scholar that new all those intellectualities.

    4) To be honest, i do not believe in " legends " but in words. To me, Herodotus, if he was wrong ( if he lied that's a shame ), is in the same position as a modern scholar to say anything. Rationality here plays the role that there is absolutely nothing a modern scholar can do to say what's true or not. We can argue about " modernly analyzed ancient rethoric used by ancient authors and their absolut rethorical goal ". Wich sounds as pedantic as i can imagine it. But no Etruscologist or specialist of Anatolia / Aegea really can have a clue about it, they only have point-of-views. I think every myths of ethnogenesis is somewhere right. To what extent? is not known.

    5) To be honest², i have no clue. I just read what everyone is saying, the study shows mostly Anatolia and Iran Neolithic ancestry and little Steppe and what not Morocco Neolithic. But then people are arguing that the ancestry namely Anatolia and Iran Neolithic is actually similar and linked with some Myceaneans samples. I guess some " runs " were made, and people comparing their own ancestry with those samples, it's all up to you, but then i had the self conclusion that ancient italian samples mostly looked like coming from the Aegea. My bad if i got that wrong.

    Conclusion: I dont have any conviction in all this topic. I'm talking about it, because it's still an interesting idea. To imagine that Bronze Age Collapse and movement of populations would made the Aegean world go by the sea in all direction for their survival.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    1) My point was never to make a link between Anatolians Lydians and Italians Etruscans and Tyrrhenians if this is what you understood. My point was to make a deal between modern hypothesis like linking Lemnian, Rhaetian and Etruscan languages with ancient greek myths, like a kind of syncretic legend between an ancient tribe mainly Tyrrhenians and Etruscans. Like this roman idea that germanic tribes were all originally Suebii, then later different tribe of this ethnogenesis came with different ethnonyms. To me the Lydians in this scenario do only matter because of Geography, old and contemporary myths are overlapping with the conclusion Ancient Tyrrhenians ancestors of contemporary Etruscans came from Lydia = Near Lydia not Lydians.

    2) I have no idea what Steppe ancestry is doing here. You are putting way too much value to those ancestries. Steppe signal will only show us " there was a migration linked to the Steppe ", it doesn't tell us the contemporary political applications. We already knows that Mycanean Greeks and " Anatolians [ if those samples matters ] " did not have much Steppe ancestry even tho they spoked IE languages. Etruscans had their Steppe ancestry from Bell Beaker ancestry in Italy, only by interactions and SEX. What is Mycanean Culture? Why do we assume it was originally a Greek-Speaking Culture, and not a Pelasgian, non-indo european one at some point being lead by IE/Steppe peoples? Bell Beakers were a fusion of steppe and central european neolithic peoples right? And their culture came from Spain, wich had peoples with different genetic ( even tho still linked to EEF ) ancestry right? We have no clue if in the Mycaenean period, the Aegea was populated only by IE and not non-IE speaking people and that Tyrrhenian / Etruscan were not one of them.

    3) The point here is that ancient people Do Not Forgot that much history, especially if they have a Writing system. Why did Lydians believed that Etruscans and Tyrrhenians were coming from Lydia as Lydians in the name of Herodotus Lydians 800 years after the Bronze Age Collapse and the eventual departure of Tyrrhenians to Italy. Was that made up by Herodotus or did Lydians had ancient records of it? As for why Etruscans would have lost the ability to write, probably because if we follow the idea of the Sea Peoples, ancestors of Etruscans were like Mediterranean " Steppe people ", young men in a männerbund trying to found new home by the Sea. And not some kind of elite or scholar that new all those intellectualities.

    4) To be honest, i do not believe in " legends " but in words. To me, Herodotus, if he was wrong ( if he lied that's a shame ), is in the same position as a modern scholar to say anything. Rationality here plays the role that there is absolutely nothing a modern scholar can do to say what's true or not. We can argue about " modernly analyzed ancient rethoric used by ancient authors and their absolut rethorical goal ". Wich sounds as pedantic as i can imagine it. But no Etruscologist or specialist of Anatolia / Aegea really can have a clue about it, they only have point-of-views. I think every myths of ethnogenesis is somewhere right. To what extent? is not known.

    5) To be honest², i have no clue. I just read what everyone is saying, the study shows mostly Anatolia and Iran Neolithic ancestry and little Steppe and what not Morocco Neolithic. But then people are arguing that the ancestry namely Anatolia and Iran Neolithic is actually similar and linked with some Myceaneans samples. I guess some " runs " were made, and people comparing their own ancestry with those samples, it's all up to you, but then i had the self conclusion that ancient italian samples mostly looked like coming from the Aegea. My bad if i got that wrong.

    Conclusion: I dont have any conviction in all this topic. I'm talking about it, because it's still an interesting idea. To imagine that Bronze Age Collapse and movement of populations would made the Aegean world go by the sea in all direction for their survival.
    You don't understand the topic. You seem not to be interested in science. So, I don't know why you're posting or on this site at all.

    Really, some people just belong on ignore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do you mean this one? All the others I match get Tuscans as the closest modern population.


    23. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1110 AD) ..... 10.77 - R64 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Italian_Abruzzo (10.43)
    2. Tuscan (10.47)
    3. West_Sicilian (10.55)
    4. Maltese (12.42)
    5. South_Italian (13.62)
    6. East_Sicilian (13.86)
    7. Central_Greek (14.21)
    8. North_Italian (15.11)

    3. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (905 AD) ..... 6.017 - R60 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (5.034)
    2. Italian_Abruzzo (7.080)
    3. West_Sicilian (8.330)
    4. East_Sicilian (10.69)
    5. Central_Greek (10.77)
    6. North_Italian (11.17)
    7. Greek (11.32)
    8. Kosovan (11.35)



    It's the same reason they label some of the samples from Cordoba Spaniard from Cordoba, or the ones from the Visigothic site either Slavic Visigothic or Spaniard Visigothic.

    Actually, I think it's probably helpful for people who don't know the samples. They're trying to show the "ethnic" composition of the samples. Clearly, there were a lot of Tuscan like people in that particular burial in that particular era, versus Aegean like people or Spanish like people or on and on .

    Some of them are not great matches, of course. All that it indicates, I think, is that people in Lazio might have been closer to Tuscans in the Middle Ages. Migration from Abruzzo and other southern regions might have changed them so that now they skew further south. Of course, who knows, it could have been a bunch of southern Tuscans.

    Without more context from the burials everything is speculative to one degree or another.


    Actually, I think it may have been an opposite trajectory. People from Lazio were more Southern-Italian-like on average in the Middle Ages, and were pulled more northern towards the position of modern Central Italy. However, some of them were in fact Tuscan-like, according to figure C.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The story line is that Tyrrhenus wich was a Lydian, went to Italy with his people called Tyrrhenians. The whole point of the hypothesis is the mythical or historical ( for modern pov ) pov of ancient greeks about Etruscans and the similar language of etruscans and lemnians. It's even wrote somewhere that the language of Lemnos was not Greek. The fact that Lydian language and Etruscan language are not similar is kinda clear, but it doesn't really mean anything, Neustrian Franks spoked Gallo-Roman and Austrasian Franks spoked Old Frankish, but they where all Franks. We are visualing an epoch ( -1200 / -1100 ) where ethnogenesis and indoeuropeanization were probably not complete. In the exemple of Pelasgians wich were probably not IE speaking peoples, would be related with peoples who are IE speaking peoples, because all people of a geographic area are related. Why would it be unlikely that Lydians lost memory??? This is highly speculative, has they already used Writing by this time. You make too much of a difference between Aegean World and Whole Anatolia, they might have been closer in ancestry and culture that with the most Central and Eastern Anatolians. If we should write ancient history only by the sole fragments that we have from the past, then we can wright everything and nothing. I trust ancient authors way more than modern scientists, Colonial Rethoric doesn't equal Probably Made Up. It's just a POV that we can accept or refute.

    How notice the high prevalence of Aegean Ancestry in ancient Italy is not a clue about " mass migration " wich the mass part is not even needed in this case.
    The first people on lemnos where the thracian Sintian tribe from late bronze-age....there are no Lydians in lemnos and etruscans used the island of lemnos as a trading stopover circa 500BC.....thats more than 400 years after the etruscans where already settled in Italy

    The etruscans where never noted as Asiatics ( from Asia Minor ...Anatolia ) .......the Liburnians where
    https://www.academia.edu/33029236/_L...cal_Stereotype
    Last edited by torzio; 30-11-19 at 21:19.
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    There needs to be clarity on what is Goth in this thread and mytueancestry thread

    There are Visigoths ( pure Goths ) .....no steppe admixture ..........and then there are Ostrogoths ( eastern Goths ) which have some steppe admixture

    I am not 100% sure , but visigoths ended up in Spain and ostrogoths ended up in Italy

    I just need some more clarity on this

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    There needs to be clarity on what is Goth in this thread and mytueancestry thread

    There are Visigoths ( pure Goths ) .....no steppe admixture ..........and then there are Ostrogoths ( eastern Goths ) which have some steppe admixture

    I am not 100% sure , but visigoths ended up in Spain and ostrogoths ended up in Italy

    I just need some more clarity on this
    When I read history soon I have a substrate, but I don't remember the details. Let's see I remember that the Goths are divided and those who enter Spain are called Visigoths and those of Italy do not remember anymore. A few years ago I was talking to a biologist and he told me that these people are all the same despite their names, they would refer to their most ancestral origin, I don't know.


    With regard to the Visigoths or Goths in Spain, it acquires all the epic and historical significance as something of ours in perceiving the situation as soon as they are part of us, we are going to mix. Bone as they are part of the Spanish genetic heritage so that we understand each other, as with the rest of the ethnic groups that have to do with the history of Spain. We do not have a vision of the typical "pure" goth in reference to our history or as part of us. It is like any historical event of a Norwegian princess who travels to the court of Castile to marry, it is like drinking a glass of water, but her descendant or knowing that El Cid disdained Goths, Latinos or whatever it is when we acquire all the relevance for putting an imaginary example. I don't know if I have understood. So when it is part of us, what is known by history, archeology e.t.c. It is when it makes sense for a migration to our historic country and won by hand that integrates into the whole contributing.


    I hope it is understood, it is not about idolizing a blonde hair and blue eyes riding towards Spain, it is the history of a country, it is beyond that.

    In the sample that I obtained from the hillock of the pig at the beginning it appeared as vascones e.t.c. Well, now he's like Iberian, Latin ...
    The ilergetes also appeared at the beginning as Vascones / ilergetes

    I think there were people who would tell you something and they may be super bundled. If the term vascones refers to the Iberian peninsula in times of the bronze age, it would be an appropriate term for samples of the entire peninsula provided that the results correspond. It is not about modern Basques.


    I think we are going to waste a lot of time today if in MTA they begin to pay attention to current socio-political issues because in a matter of 10 years all this will be clarified almost 100% I imagine when the calculators are ready. So why waste time today if in a few years the whole truth is going to be known? We lose the current time.

    In the case of the Moorish era, for example, there are other totally different circumstances when it comes to sociology, religion, e.t.c. There are Spaniards who do not show their results because the small percentage of North Africa is not seen, but even that I think has a socio-political motive, historical religious or whatever you want to call it. Even when the news came out that the percentage of Spaniards in North Africa could be that it did not respond to the Muslim era, I saw that they still did not show their results, I do not understand it sincerely, sharing snp with Moors or Goths does not make you moro or goth, it It is about what I explained above, it is about knowing our Spanish genetic heritage, one thing or the other will not make us more Spanish or less modern Spanish.

    In some forum to get from the Red Sea I think or North East Africa another Spanish said it was black, then you could only answer: Eat my cock, you think: what do you care about and ignore it like a jerk. And yet these types of people do not show their results, it is what I do not see proportional in the forums, some give everything and others comfortably allow themselves to judge others by their ethnical results that obviously does not show so that they insult him but for the general knowledge, beyond politics etc. In short, the truth that will be found sooner or later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Actually, I think it may have been an opposite trajectory. People from Lazio were more Southern-Italian-like on average in the Middle Ages, and were pulled more northern towards the position of modern Central Italy. However, some of them were in fact Tuscan-like, according to figure C.

    You may be right. I should have gone back to the graphic in the paper.

    Still a difference between the categorizations in terms of similarity to Tuscans, however.

    These samples from Medieval Villa Magna, to which I get hits, are all labeled as closest to modern Tuscans by mta, but the paper has them in the South Italian cluster: 60, 57, 59, 54, 52.

    Normally, I'd say that of course the academic paper has to have it more right than something based on K=15, but this paper is so disappointing in so many ways that I'm not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You may be right. I should have gone back to the graphic in the paper.

    Still a difference between the categorizations in terms of similarity to Tuscans, however.

    These samples from Medieval Villa Magna, to which I get hits, are all labeled as closest to modern Tuscans by mta, but the paper has them in the South Italian cluster: 60, 57, 59, 54, 52.

    Normally, I'd say that of course the academic paper has to have it more right than something based on K=15, but this paper is so disappointing in so many ways that I'm not sure.
    These are the samples I get; I get deep dive with 4 of them:

    15. Tuscan Medieval Cancelleria Basilica (1350 AD) ..... 12.13 - R1290 -


    1. Tuscan (6.839)
    2. West_Sicilian (7.269)
    3. Italian_Abruzzo (9.541)
    4. East_Sicilian (11.36)
    5. South_Italian (11.55)
    6. Central_Greek (11.99)
    7. North_Italian (12.51)
    8. Greek (13.32)


    Top 96% match vs all users


    18. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (905 AD) ..... 12.45 - R60 -


    1. Tuscan (5.034)
    2. Italian_Abruzzo (7.080)
    3. West_Sicilian (8.330)
    4. East_Sicilian (10.69)
    5. Central_Greek (10.77)
    6. North_Italian (11.17)
    7. Greek (11.32)
    8. Kosovan (11.35)


    Top 96% match vs all users


    21. Tuscan Late Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1355 AD) ..... 12.59 - R54 -




    1. Tuscan (8.612)
    2. West_Sicilian (9.976)
    3. Italian_Abruzzo (10.72)
    4. East_Sicilian (11.97)
    5. South_Italian (12.22)
    6. Central_Greek (12.57)
    7. North_Italian (13.75)
    8. Greek_Thessaly (14.61)


    Top 98% match vs all users


    26. Tuscan Late Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1355 AD) ..... 13.28 - R56 -




    1. West_Sicilian (8.118)
    2. Tuscan (10.29)
    3. South_Italian (11.31)
    4. Italian_Abruzzo (11.42)
    5. Maltese (12.27)
    6. East_Sicilian (12.32)
    7. Central_Greek (13.14)
    8. Italian_Jewish (13.43)


    Top 97% match vs all users


    40. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1110 AD) ..... 14.69 - R64 -




    1. Italian_Abruzzo (10.43)
    2. Tuscan (10.47)
    3. West_Sicilian (10.55)
    4. Maltese (12.42)
    5. South_Italian (13.62)
    6. East_Sicilian (13.86)
    7. Central_Greek (14.21)
    8. North_Italian (15.11)


    Top 97% match vs all users


    44. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1110 AD) ..... 15.14 - R57 -




    1. Tuscan (9.781)
    2. Italian_Abruzzo (11.51)
    3. West_Sicilian (12.69)
    4. North_Italian (13.42)
    5. Central_Greek (14.03)
    6. East_Sicilian (14.32)
    7. South_Italian (14.46)
    8. Greek (15.09)


    Top 97% match vs all users

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    Here are mine:

    3. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (905 AD) ..... 6.017 - R60 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (5.034)
    2. Italian_Abruzzo (7.080)
    3. West_Sicilian (8.330)
    4. East_Sicilian (10.69)
    5. Central_Greek (10.77)
    6. North_Italian (11.17)
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    18. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1110 AD) ..... 10.37 - R57 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (9.781)
    2. Italian_Abruzzo (11.51)
    3. West_Sicilian (12.69)
    4. North_Italian (13.42)
    5. Central_Greek (14.03)
    6. East_Sicilian (14.32)
    7. South_Italian (14.46)
    8. Greek (15.09)

    25. Medieval Villa Magna Italy (905 AD) ..... 10.87 - R59 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (10.70)
    2. West_Sicilian (11.21)
    3. Italian_Abruzzo (13.10)
    4. Maltese (13.70)
    5. North_Italian (13.98)
    6. South_Italian (15.72)
    7. East_Sicilian (16.12)
    8. Central_Greek (16.71)




    31. Tuscan Late Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1355 AD) ..... 12.19 - R54 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (8.612)
    2. West_Sicilian (9.976)
    3. Italian_Abruzzo (10.72)
    4. East_Sicilian (11.97)
    5. South_Italian (12.22)
    6. Central_Greek (12.57)
    7. North_Italian (13.75)
    8. Greek_Thessaly (14.61)

    37. Late Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1355 AD) ..... 12.76 - R52 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (11.30)
    2. West_Sicilian (12.07)
    3. North_Italian (13.82)
    4. Maltese (15.23)
    5. Italian_Abruzzo (15.41)
    6. South_Italian (16.62)
    7. East_Sicilian (16.94)
    8. Spanish_Andalucia (17.33)










  16. #641
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    When I read history soon I have a substrate, but I don't remember the details. Let's see I remember that the Goths are divided and those who enter Spain are called Visigoths and those of Italy do not remember anymore. A few years ago I was talking to a biologist and he told me that these people are all the same despite their names, they would refer to their most ancestral origin, I don't know.


    With regard to the Visigoths or Goths in Spain, it acquires all the epic and historical significance as something of ours in perceiving the situation as soon as they are part of us, we are going to mix. Bone as they are part of the Spanish genetic heritage so that we understand each other, as with the rest of the ethnic groups that have to do with the history of Spain. We do not have a vision of the typical "pure" goth in reference to our history or as part of us. It is like any historical event of a Norwegian princess who travels to the court of Castile to marry, it is like drinking a glass of water, but her descendant or knowing that El Cid disdained Goths, Latinos or whatever it is when we acquire all the relevance for putting an imaginary example. I don't know if I have understood. So when it is part of us, what is known by history, archeology e.t.c. It is when it makes sense for a migration to our historic country and won by hand that integrates into the whole contributing.


    I hope it is understood, it is not about idolizing a blonde hair and blue eyes riding towards Spain, it is the history of a country, it is beyond that.

    In the sample that I obtained from the hillock of the pig at the beginning it appeared as vascones e.t.c. Well, now he's like Iberian, Latin ...
    The ilergetes also appeared at the beginning as Vascones / ilergetes

    I think there were people who would tell you something and they may be super bundled. If the term vascones refers to the Iberian peninsula in times of the bronze age, it would be an appropriate term for samples of the entire peninsula provided that the results correspond. It is not about modern Basques.


    I think we are going to waste a lot of time today if in MTA they begin to pay attention to current socio-political issues because in a matter of 10 years all this will be clarified almost 100% I imagine when the calculators are ready. So why waste time today if in a few years the whole truth is going to be known? We lose the current time.

    In the case of the Moorish era, for example, there are other totally different circumstances when it comes to sociology, religion, e.t.c. There are Spaniards who do not show their results because the small percentage of North Africa is not seen, but even that I think has a socio-political motive, historical religious or whatever you want to call it. Even when the news came out that the percentage of Spaniards in North Africa could be that it did not respond to the Muslim era, I saw that they still did not show their results, I do not understand it sincerely, sharing snp with Moors or Goths does not make you moro or goth, it It is about what I explained above, it is about knowing our Spanish genetic heritage, one thing or the other will not make us more Spanish or less modern Spanish.

    In some forum to get from the Red Sea I think or North East Africa another Spanish said it was black, then you could only answer: Eat my cock, you think: what do you care about and ignore it like a jerk. And yet these types of people do not show their results, it is what I do not see proportional in the forums, some give everything and others comfortably allow themselves to judge others by their ethnical results that obviously does not show so that they insult him but for the general knowledge, beyond politics etc. In short, the truth that will be found sooner or later.

    I would confirm that the difference between the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths was essentially nothing, an ancient division based mostly on the respective dominant dynasties, where the Thervingi (predecessors of the Visigoths) were led by the Balts, and the Greutungi (the pre-Ostrogoths) ruled by the Amali by which Theoderic the Great would have descended.
    The Goths in many ways were a sort of nebula in Eastern Europe, a centripetal group assimilating with relative ease the neighbours, nor should we forget that - although more secluded - even the Gepids were "Goths". Certainly the eastern branch of the Goths was more exposed to the influences of the steppe civilizations, assimilating protoslavs and even more sarmatic groups, to the point that Byzantine military treaty at the beginning of the VIIth century as the "Strategikon" by Mauritius didn't classify the Goths anymore between the Germans (the so-called "blond peoples" / "Xantha Ethne"), but among the "Huns", given their acquired and brilliant ability to fight on horseback. Even if it will certainly be updated, the study by Vernadsky remains fundamental:

    https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/sae...1.2.jg.340.xml


    Now I don't remember which other scholar affirmed it, if Wolfram or Heather, in any case the members of the two groups - at least until the first half of the IVth century - moved rather freely from one tribe to another. The event that broke and fractured the Goth macro-group was the advent of the Huns. The Goths who managed to escape definitively became the Visigoths, while most of Greutungi, which was blocked by the Asian invaders and became a vassal for at least 70-80 years, until the death of Attila in the middle of the Vth century, would have become the Ostrogoths, with a long gestation that would have ended after a few decades, bringing together several Eastern Germans scattered along the Danube and in Balkan area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You don't understand the topic. You seem not to be interested in science. So, I don't know why you're posting or on this site at all.

    Really, some people just belong on ignore.
    That is extremely mean and pretentious. One could ask himself if you actually are a good human being with some of your response to other beings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    I would confirm that the difference between the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths was essentially nothing, an ancient division based mostly on the respective dominant dynasties, where the Thervingi (predecessors of the Visigoths) were led by the Balts, and the Greutungi (the pre-Ostrogoths) ruled by the Amali by which Theoderic the Great would have descended.
    The Goths in many ways were a sort of nebula in Eastern Europe, a centripetal group assimilating with relative ease the neighbours, nor should we forget that - although more secluded - even the Gepids were "Goths". Certainly the eastern branch of the Goths was more exposed to the influences of the steppe civilizations, assimilating protoslavs and even more sarmatic groups, to the point that Byzantine military treaty at the beginning of the VIIth century as the "Strategikon" by Mauritius didn't classify the Goths anymore between the Germans (the so-called "blond peoples" / "Xantha Ethne"), but among the "Huns", given their acquired and brilliant ability to fight on horseback. Even if it will certainly be updated, the study by Vernadsky remains fundamental:

    https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/sae...1.2.jg.340.xml


    Now I don't remember which other scholar affirmed it, if Wolfram or Heather, in any case the members of the two groups - at least until the first half of the IVth century - moved rather freely from one tribe to another. The event that broke and fractured the Goth macro-group was the advent of the Huns. The Goths who managed to escape definitively became the Visigoths, while most of Greutungi, which was blocked by the Asian invaders and became a vassal for at least 70-80 years, until the death of Attila in the middle of the Vth century, would have become the Ostrogoths, with a long gestation that would have ended after a few decades, bringing together several Eastern Germans scattered along the Danube and in Balkan area
    I think there are genetic differences , especially since the ostrogoths where in the area of black sea Ukraine, Moldova ( and crimea) for over 500 years.........clearly, plenty of time to get some steppe admixture into their society

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    We have only one sample from an Ostrogoth burial, and he was a chieftain.

    He was not, however, very steppe like. He was like a Pontic Greek.

    That's why having "Gothic" samples in your country doesn't necessarily tell you what you might expect in terms of "ethnic" composition or impact.

    The "Gothic" samples from Spain are either more "Slavic-like" according to mta, or "Spaniard like". So, if that's correct, they picked up some "Slavic" as well, and they intermarried so much so quickly that many "lost" their "Germanic" signature very, very early.

    That makes complete sense according to the history of the period as I understand it, which always postulated they were a small, mostly male dominated group, not like the Langobards, who were family groups, and at least 60-100,000 of them arrived on the Italian peninsula.

    Has anyone run these "Spanish" Goths with the programs used above for comparison?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    I would confirm that the difference between the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths was essentially nothing, an ancient division based mostly on the respective dominant dynasties, where the Thervingi (predecessors of the Visigoths) were led by the Balts, and the Greutungi (the pre-Ostrogoths) ruled by the Amali by which Theoderic the Great would have descended.
    The Goths in many ways were a sort of nebula in Eastern Europe, a centripetal group assimilating with relative ease the neighbours, nor should we forget that - although more secluded - even the Gepids were "Goths". Certainly the eastern branch of the Goths was more exposed to the influences of the steppe civilizations, assimilating protoslavs and even more sarmatic groups, to the point that Byzantine military treaty at the beginning of the VIIth century as the "Strategikon" by Mauritius didn't classify the Goths anymore between the Germans (the so-called "blond peoples" / "Xantha Ethne"), but among the "Huns", given their acquired and brilliant ability to fight on horseback. Even if it will certainly be updated, the study by Vernadsky remains fundamental:

    https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/sae...1.2.jg.340.xml


    Now I don't remember which other scholar affirmed it, if Wolfram or Heather, in any case the members of the two groups - at least until the first half of the IVth century - moved rather freely from one tribe to another. The event that broke and fractured the Goth macro-group was the advent of the Huns. The Goths who managed to escape definitively became the Visigoths, while most of Greutungi, which was blocked by the Asian invaders and became a vassal for at least 70-80 years, until the death of Attila in the middle of the Vth century, would have become the Ostrogoths, with a long gestation that would have ended after a few decades, bringing together several Eastern Germans scattered along the Danube and in Balkan area
    If you're right, it had been commented more times, I think Angela. Nothing changes, more or less Germanic, if they were mixed with Eastern Europe or much more we still like them more because of the historical events that led them to us, contributing undoubtedly to the creation of modern Spanish.


    It is really very complicated and sometimes we don't know each other very well among Europeans, there is one out there that is surprising that Spanish regions appear in their Germanic lists of modern populations, possibly think we are pure Iberians, I wonder the Iberians were a pure ethnic group ...


    As soon as there are more samples and the calculators are improving, I think that many history books will be rewritten and those who do not like or do not like certain results will have to endure. I think it's seeing a lot, but maybe in a few years from what I'm seeing is infallible.

    I do not understand why MTA does not charge Andalusian visigoths and many other regions. Sometimes I like to see some ancient ethnic groups regardless of whether I get results or not.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    That is extremely mean and pretentious. One could ask himself if you actually are a good human being with some of your response to other beings.
    Look, you're on a site where we want people to base their interpretations on "SCIENCE" and "HISTORY", not agenda, myths and fantasy. If you're not going to read the science and history as it relates to the topic at hand, and have no interest in learning from the relevant scientific and historical material we present here, then what's the point pray tell?

    All you're doing is repeating over and over again misunderstood information from t-rolls, or just dreaming up hypotheses with no basis in fact.

    I don't know how old you are, but this is not kindergarten, and we're not your parents.

    In the real world if you want someone to listen to your opinions they have to be informed ones.

    We have a lot of problems in modern society precisely because young people are not held to the same standards that we had to meet.

    You have to do your homework before forming opinions, and still those opinions will get criticized, and you have to learn from the criticism too instead of just having hurt feelings. The thing not to do is to ignore the facts and to refuse to absorb where you went wrong. If you want to challenge the facts with different facts that's fine, but that's not what you're doing.

    I complained about my post graduate education, saying it was too tough, the professors too unfeeling. Nobody wants to see 25 year old men crying under interrogation. You know what? They were like Mama Bear compared to what I had to deal with at work.

    It was good preparation.

    Even parents have to practice "tough love" more than occasionally. You're not always going to be around to act as protector. You have to teach them how to function in the real world without you when the time comes, and that means facing the consequences of the things they do, although it probably hurts you as much if not more than them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do you mean this one? All the others I match get Tuscans as the closest modern population.


    It's the same reason they label some of the samples from Cordoba Spaniard from Cordoba, or the ones from the Visigothic site either Slavic Visigothic or Spaniard Visigothic.

    Actually, I think it's probably helpful for people who don't know the samples. They're trying to show the "ethnic" composition of the samples. Clearly, there were a lot of Tuscan like people in that particular burial in that particular era, versus Aegean like people or Spanish like people or on and on .

    Some of them are not great matches, of course. All that it indicates, I think, is that people in Lazio might have been closer to Tuscans in the Middle Ages. Migration from Abruzzo and other southern regions might have changed them so that now they skew further south. Of course, who knows, it could have been a bunch of southern Tuscans.

    Without more context from the burials everything is speculative to one degree or another.

    I don't find a plausible reason to use these labels. Those in Villa Magna or from Cancelleria Basilica are not Tuscan and not all of these samples really come out like the Tuscans. For example, people believe that those labelled as Central Roman and found in the Longobard cemetery in Hungary or Collegno were Roman. There's no evidence of that. The many erroneous readings arise precisely from the accumulation of erroneous starting assumptions. In my opinion, this way of doing things only contributes to further confusion, and you can already see that there is a great deal of confusion anywhere. And MTA is not very precise about placing these ancient samples.



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You may be right. I should have gone back to the graphic in the paper.

    Still a difference between the categorizations in terms of similarity to Tuscans, however.

    These samples from Medieval Villa Magna, to which I get hits, are all labeled as closest to modern Tuscans by mta, but the paper has them in the South Italian cluster: 60, 57, 59, 54, 52.

    Normally, I'd say that of course the academic paper has to have it more right than something based on K=15, but this paper is so disappointing in so many ways that I'm not sure.

    Even if this academic paper is disappointing I wouldn't trust more MTA than this paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    If you're right, it had been commented more times, I think Angela. Nothing changes, more or less Germanic, if they were mixed with Eastern Europe or much more we still like them more because of the historical events that led them to us, contributing undoubtedly to the creation of modern Spanish.


    It is really very complicated and sometimes we don't know each other very well among Europeans, there is one out there that is surprising that Spanish regions appear in their Germanic lists of modern populations, possibly think we are pure Iberians, I wonder the Iberians were a pure ethnic group ...


    As soon as there are more samples and the calculators are improving, I think that many history books will be rewritten and those who do not like or do not like certain results will have to endure. I think it's seeing a lot, but maybe in a few years from what I'm seeing is infallible.

    I do not understand why MTA does not charge Andalusian visigoths and many other regions. Sometimes I like to see some ancient ethnic groups regardless of whether I get results or not.
    I'm only in the business of finding out what's "true", even if the truth is that I'm not very similar to ancient groups I "like", and I'm quite similar, or at least influenced by ancient groups I don't "like".

    It is what it is.

    I'm not going to fiddle with results or blind myself to reality the way people do on certain other sites. I think it's dishonest and dishonorable.

    If you want to know how many Visigothic males invaded Iberia, one way to check is to look for the frequency of "Germanic" and perhaps "Slavic" yDna markers. I1, U-106, and Slavic R1a could be combined for a rough estimate. You can also look at IBD analysis per Ralph and Coop et al. There is also the autosomal analysis done by various papers. Spain is not a Germanic country no matter what Spanish Nordicists might like to believe.

    As I tried to explain to Half Alp, the discussions here should be based on scientific and historical fact, not preferences.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Pax,

    Yes, the labelling is sometimes a problem. What mta does is sometimes helpful, sometimes not. I'm not doing their PR.

    It would be helpful if people knew that the Ostrogoth from the Crimea they're matching is not very Germanic like and is, in fact, Pontic Greek like, or, in the case of the "Gothic" samples from Spain, they're getting a match not to "Germanic" ancestry, but to Spanish ancestry.

    As for the "Central Romans" in Szolad, I think I've always made it clear in these discussions that we have no way of knowing whether these people were holdover "Romans" still in this Roman province because it held on for a very long time, or people who arrived there during the time of Byzantine rule, or whether it's just serendipity.

    As for Collegno, we have a similar issue, although there the samples are at least in the Italian peninsula.

    Perhaps they should just label them "Italian like". I don't know.

    The fact remains that SOME of the samples buried at Medieval Magna, whether located in Lazio or not, are "more" like MODERN Tuscans than like MODERN Southern Italians, although most of the similarities aren't very good. Others are equally distant from Tuscans and Southern Italians, and some definitely lean more Southern Italian.

    I don't see the big problem here. Is it because some samples which are more modern "Southern Italian like" are labelled "Tuscan"?

    If it concerns you, take it up with them.

    When we actually get Tuscans from the Medieval period we'll find out what they were like at the time of the Villa Magna samples. Only then will we know if some of those people might actually have been from Tuscany. People are, after all, not always buried where they were born or lived. One of the samples comes out as being closest to Catalans. I doubt he was either Roman or Tuscan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    Actually, I think it may have been an opposite trajectory. People from Lazio were more Southern-Italian-like on average in the Middle Ages, and were pulled more northern towards the position of modern Central Italy. However, some of them were in fact Tuscan-like, according to figure C.


    I did a PCA with everyone from Medieval Age and Renaissance Rome.


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