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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    I did a PCA with everyone from Medieval Age and Renaissance Rome.

    Where do you have R60 plotting? It doesn't look like anything lands in modern Tuscany, which is where K=15 puts it.

    So, even Eurogenes' two own programs don't agree.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Here are mine:

    3. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (905 AD) ..... 6.017 - R60 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (5.034)
    2. Italian_Abruzzo (7.080)
    3. West_Sicilian (8.330)
    4. East_Sicilian (10.69)
    5. Central_Greek (10.77)
    6. North_Italian (11.17)
    7. Greek (11.32)
    8. Kosovan (11.35)

    18. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1110 AD) ..... 10.37 - R57 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (9.781)
    2. Italian_Abruzzo (11.51)
    3. West_Sicilian (12.69)
    4. North_Italian (13.42)
    5. Central_Greek (14.03)
    6. East_Sicilian (14.32)
    7. South_Italian (14.46)
    8. Greek (15.09)

    25. Medieval Villa Magna Italy (905 AD) ..... 10.87 - R59 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (10.70)
    2. West_Sicilian (11.21)
    3. Italian_Abruzzo (13.10)
    4. Maltese (13.70)
    5. North_Italian (13.98)
    6. South_Italian (15.72)
    7. East_Sicilian (16.12)
    8. Central_Greek (16.71)




    31. Tuscan Late Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1355 AD) ..... 12.19 - R54 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (8.612)
    2. West_Sicilian (9.976)
    3. Italian_Abruzzo (10.72)
    4. East_Sicilian (11.97)
    5. South_Italian (12.22)
    6. Central_Greek (12.57)
    7. North_Italian (13.75)
    8. Greek_Thessaly (14.61)

    37. Late Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1355 AD) ..... 12.76 - R52 -
    Ancient GroupModern GroupSimiliar SamplesHaplogroups (NEW!)PCA AncientPCA ModernResearch Link
    1. Tuscan (11.30)
    2. West_Sicilian (12.07)
    3. North_Italian (13.82)
    4. Maltese (15.23)
    5. Italian_Abruzzo (15.41)
    6. South_Italian (16.62)
    7. East_Sicilian (16.94)
    8. Spanish_Andalucia (17.33)










    Their G25 distances

    R60



    R57



    R59



    R54




    R52






    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Can we get a split of only republican or earlier samples and leave roman empire samples or later for another thread/post?

    They're all part of the same paper.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Where do you have R60 plotting? It doesn't look like anything lands in modern Tuscany, which is where K=15 puts it.

    So, even Eurogenes' two own programs don't agree.

    R60 plotting close to south Italy.

    K15 is older than G25. That's probably the reason.



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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    R60 plotting with south Italy.

    K15 is older than G25. That's probably the reason.
    They give it a genetic fit of 5 to modern Tuscans.

    That's quite a flaw in K15.

    I've never gotten a genetic fit of 6 with a Southern Italian in my life, which is what I get to this person. Another member, from Emilia Romagna, also gets a good fit.

    Something is definitely wrong somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    They give it a genetic fit of 5 to modern Tuscans.

    That's quite a flaw in K15.

    I've never gotten a genetic fit of 6 with a Southern Italian in my life, which is what I get to this person. Another member, from Emilia Romagna, also gets a good fit.

    Something is definitely wrong somewhere.
    K15 flaw and probably a bad conversion of the ancient samples on Mytrueancestry.com

    In my PCA R60 has a similar position to the paper's PCA

    South Italy towards Greece




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    Well, somebody had better get on the horn to mta.

    For the price, we expect better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I think there are genetic differences , especially since the ostrogoths where in the area of black sea Ukraine, Moldova ( and crimea) for over 500 years.........clearly, plenty of time to get some steppe admixture into their society

    Personally, in the first periods, I imagine a fairly gradual cline between the western and eastern Goths, since - as mentioned - at least until the arrival of the Huns the two branches were quite permeable with one another and almost homogeneous.
    However, there were already foreign elements, in some way assimilated, such as various Pontic / Anatolian Greeks, including some of the relatives or ancestors of Wulfila, the translator of the Gothic Bible.
    I believe that the main differences have become more marked precisely during and after the Hun domain, with the Ostrogoths assimilating groups from Eastern Europe, and at this juncture there is some name-giving clue in the sources:


    - in the Variae, IV, 27 by Cassiodorus, dating back to 507/11, a Theoderic's official named Tutizar is quoted, who should refer to an alanic/hun origin or influence https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/RE:Tutizar ;


    - the same applies to Tucza, mentioned in a letter by pope Pelagius I, a gothic woman residing in Rieti, already wife of the Roman Maximinus, who decides to leave her husband to become a nun: even here her name would have an iranic root;


    - finally, there is Ragnaris, a Goth commander active in southern Italy in the last years of the Greek-Gothic war - official with a Germanic name -, quoted in the sources of Procopius and Agathias. Agathias, however, insists on defining it "Hun"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnaris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Pax,

    Yes, the labelling is sometimes a problem. What mta does is sometimes helpful, sometimes not. I'm not doing their PR. .

    What it concerns me, as usual, is the lack of accuracy. All these tools are inaccurate, even academic papers sometimes are, but MTA is really very inaccurate.


    Since I see that MTA is a little game that people like, I don't want to be the usual party pooper, so I leave the party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is the kind of filth we have to deal with day after day. This deranged Romanian is a perfect example of it.

    I'm leaving it up so you can see the kind of ethnic slurs and racism that come bubbling up when people can hide behind sock accounts on the internet.
    This retard thinks I'm a peasant... I'm actually a 1%-er

    This drag on the human race should be allowed to fail, and perish from the face of the earth.

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    I am a disgrace to humanity, laugh at the burning car wreck that is my life.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 01-12-19 at 02:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coțoflendură View Post
    I am a disgrace to humanity, laugh at the burning car wreck that is my life.
    It's not you, it's the drink and other things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Look, you're on a site where we want people to base their interpretations on "SCIENCE" and "HISTORY", not agenda, myths and fantasy. If you're not going to read the science and history as it relates to the topic at hand, and have no interest in learning from the relevant scientific and historical material we present here, then what's the point pray tell?

    All you're doing is repeating over and over again misunderstood information from t-rolls, or just dreaming up hypotheses with no basis in fact.

    I don't know how old you are, but this is not kindergarten, and we're not your parents.

    In the real world if you want someone to listen to your opinions they have to be informed ones.

    We have a lot of problems in modern society precisely because young people are not held to the same standards that we had to meet.

    You have to do your homework before forming opinions, and still those opinions will get criticized, and you have to learn from the criticism too instead of just having hurt feelings. The thing not to do is to ignore the facts and to refuse to absorb where you went wrong. If you want to challenge the facts with different facts that's fine, but that's not what you're doing.

    I complained about my post graduate education, saying it was too tough, the professors too unfeeling. Nobody wants to see 25 year old men crying under interrogation. You know what? They were like Mama Bear compared to what I had to deal with at work.

    It was good preparation.

    Even parents have to practice "tough love" more than occasionally. You're not always going to be around to act as protector. You have to teach them how to function in the real world without you when the time comes, and that means facing the consequences of the things they do, although it probably hurts you as much if not more than them.
    I think the phrase Angela may have been looking for (excuse the presumption) is, “man up.” No adult, male or otherwise, complains that someone has been mean to them. They marshall their facts and do battle, or they say, sorry, I was in error. Pick one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    If my memory serves, I don't get good Oracle results with v3, btw, but I suppose the problem may be just the abscence of more "populations", as North Italians (my closest in K15).
    @Angela
    Just found the time to check it.

    Dodecad V3's Oracle is not that bad after all, but it does have North Italians. Still, my three first pops there are Tuscans. N_Italian is the 4th, and North_Italian is the 8th. Not great, since I'm North Italian in ancestry. One pro of V3 would be that it puts the Tuscans before the Iberians, as in K36's "Oracle". I suppose it's right.
    Eurogenes K15's Oracle has the pro of being headed by North Italians, however, one con of it would be, I suppose, placing Iberians before Tuscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    What it concerns me, as usual, is the lack of accuracy. All these tools are inaccurate, even academic papers sometimes are, but MTA is really very inaccurate.


    Since I see that MTA is a little game that people like, I don't want to be the usual party pooper, so I leave the party.
    Sorry, just saw this.

    I sincerely hope you don't leave this thread. Your contributions have been valuable.

    We wouldn't have found some of these errors without your commentary.

    What we all should want is something which is as accurate as possible.

    MTA should thank you. If they correct this problem, and the one with the mysterious 1540, and the misleading description of the Ostrogoth, for example, as well as other issues we may discover, they'll have a better product.

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    I should have just stuck with another poster's reply: Man UP

    You have presented NO verifiable facts. All you have presented is jumbled, incoherent ramblings which show absolutely NO knowledge of the relevant history or genetics.

    You've also now gotten yourself an infraction.

    By all means keep it up.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Imperial Rome based on 24 samples from Antonio et al:


    29.1 % J2a-M410 7
    20.8 % G2a2 5
    16.6 % J1a 4
    8.3 % R1b 2
    4.1 % J2b-M241 1
    4.1 % J2b-M205 1
    4.1 % T1a 1
    4.1 % R1a 1
    4.1 % R2a 1
    4.1 % E1b-v12 1

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    Another high-resolution subset of inscriptions (161 of over 41,000 inscriptions that are dated to a specific year in the 6th century) from late antique Rome shows a spike in inscriptions in 543 and a subsequent decline (Fig. 8). While some have seen in this evidence for plague (21), temporal correlation is insufficient to confirm a connection. The only direct evidence for plague in Rome in this period is a one-line reference to “a great pestilence [that] ravaged the land of Italy” in 543 in the continuation of the chronicler Marcellinus (39). This epidemic coincided with the Gothic Wars, which devastated Italy in the early and mid-540s. Rome was besieged several times, notably from 545 to 546, causing famine as well as deaths due to warfare. Procopius, who reports on the siege in detail, claims that only 500 local men (likely an underestimate) remained in the city after it (26). These political–military factors more readily explain the absence of inscriptions in the late 540s and early 550s. An additional dataset of ∼31,000 inscriptions from Spain includes only 40 that can be precisely dated within an annual resolution, but nonetheless does not show a substantial decline in inscriptions beginning in the 540s (Fig. 9).

    https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/11/26/1903797116#sec-1


    Looks like the plague did hit Italy hard, but the Gothic Wars, political de-stablization, and famine took the lion's share of demographic change. However this was nearly half a century AFTER the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD, further driving the change.

    Discussed here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39606-The-Justinianic-Plague-An-inconsequential-pandemic

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    Here are the first 10 samples I get on MTA from 1000 AD - 1400 AD. The first 8 are from Villa Magna, with R65 at 8.682:


    Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1100 AD) ..... 8.682 - R65 -
    Top 99% match vs all users

    Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1100 AD) ..... 12.08 - R58 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    Tuscan Medieval Cancelleria Basilica (1350 AD) ..... 12.13 - R1290 -
    Top 96% match vs all users

    Tuscan Late Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1355 AD) ..... 12.59 - R54 -
    Top 98% match vs all users

    Tuscan Late Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1355 AD) ..... 13.28 - R56 -
    Top 97% match vs all users

    Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1110 AD) ..... 14.69 - R64 -
    Top 97% match vs all users

    Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1110 AD) ..... 15.14 - R57 -
    Top 97% match vs all users

    Medieval Italy Abbadia SS Plague (1348 AD) ..... 15.96 - BSS31
    Top 93% match vs all users

    Hellenic Cordoba Caliphate (1050 AD) ..... 16.85 - I7499 -
    Top 94% match vs all users

    Crusader Knight Tuscan / Lebanon (1250 AD) ..... 16.97 - SI-41 -
    Top 95% match vs all users


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Eurogenes K15 PCA plot












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    Eurogenes K15 PCA plot with Iron Age samples only




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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Eurogenes K15 PCA plot with Iron Age samples only



    I think what I find so surprising is that so many samples still land among Sardinians. Is it possible there were still unadmixed Romans around, i.e. locals who never got steppe admixture? Of course, this is Eurogenes, so it's not engraved in stone.

    I wish there was something as detailed based on more sophisticated statistical methods.

    I'm having a little trouble finding some of the samples. In the first set, where is Ardea 850?

    Also, what number is Etruscan_o and Latin _o and Latin _oo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Their G25 distances

    R60



    R57



    R59



    R54




    R52









    They're all part of the same paper.

    There's a BIG difference between this and what mta shows.

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    Do we have anything on these "san marino" samples .................see link

    R16
    mtDNA: U5b2b3

    R17
    mtDNA: U8b1b
    Y-DNA: J-M304

    R18
    mtDNA: H2a

    R19
    mtDNA: U5b3a1
    Y-DNA: J-L26


    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../45.660/13.909
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 316
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    from eurogenes .................samples that match other samples

    R850 to non-Imperial/later Italian or modern samples:

    Anatolia_MLBA:MA2203,
    Germany_Early_Medieval:STR300,
    Greece_Mycenaean:I9033,
    Greece_Mycenaean:I9006,
    Anatolia_MLBA:MA2208,
    Moldova_Scythian:scy300,
    Anatolia_MLBA:MA2200,
    Greece_Mycenaean:I9041,
    Moldova_Scythian:scy197,
    Moldova_Scythianscy192,
    Anatolia_MLBA:MA2206,

    .................................................. .....................................

    R1: .....proto-Villanovan

    Hungary_BA:I7043,
    Croatia_MBA:I4331,
    Germany_Bell_Beaker_dup.I4134.SG:RISE564.SG,
    Czech_Bell_Beaker:I4885,
    Croatia_Early_IA:I3313,
    Croatia_MBA:I4332,
    Hungary_Maros.SG:RISE373.SG,
    Moldova_Scythian.SG:scy305.SG,
    Moldova_Scythian.SG:scy197.SG

  25. #675
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: USA - New York



    There's no way they "Match" those other samples.

    They may be "related" to them or the result of admixtures among groups somewhat like that, but that's it.

    Either you've misunderstood, or he's even more delusional than usual.

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