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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by aci View Post
    I noticed that the haplogroup J appears suddenly after 700 BCE and at a very large proportion of 46,3% between 700 BCE - 700 CE. How is that possible?
    700bce-700ce %
    I2a 2 4,9
    I1 1 2,4
    G2a2b 7 17,1
    R1b 5 12,2
    R1a 1 2,4
    R2a 1 2,4
    J 1 2,4
    J1 6 14,6 46,3
    J2a 9 22,0
    J2b 3 7,3
    E1b1b 2 4,9
    T1a 2 4,9
    H2 1 2,4
    TOTAL 41 100,0

    In Imperial Rome is 56% !
    This below is the imperial numbers......where did you get the repulican numbers ?

    Imperial Rome based on 24 samples from Antonio et al:


    29.1 % J2a-M410 7
    20.8 % G2a2 5
    16.6 % J1a 4
    8.3 % R1b 2
    4.1 % J2b-M241 1
    4.1 % J2b-M205 1
    4.1 % T1a 1
    4.1 % R1a 1
    4.1 % R2a 1
    4.1 % E1b-v12 1
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I didn't want to comment anymore but was adressed directly.

    Yes, CTS6190 has been found in a turkish guy who says he has Albanian origins. We also have clades other than z638, which has tmrca of 4200 ybp, so its not some young founder effect.
    Is the Albanian-origin Turkish guy under CTS6190 visible in any projects or on any trees?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    On Yfull, under CTS6190 there are four Portuguese, one Italian, one Dutch, one British, one Russian. There's not a single Albanian.
    The two "Portuguese" under Y36166 are both Anglo-Virginians, one of whom has fabricated a Sephardic origin story. The Portuguese flag under Y22038 is an Italian Sephardic Jew who claims ultimate roots in Portugal. And then everyone under Y33795 is Ashkenazi, to the best of my knowledge. FYI.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    At last, I was able to get the coordinates for R850 and R437, by using the BAM conversion in Admixture Studio's version of Eurogenes K15. I will create more from the study, it just takes a really long time.

    R850_Latin_Ardea_Tribe,0.39,14.49,7.18,0.00,18.05, 19.14,29.44,9.85,0.00,0.18,0.86,0.13,0.00,0.28,0.0 0
    R437_Latin_Prenestini_Tribe,12.48,11.77,5.88,0.00, 23.49,15.70,26.02,4.61,0.00,0.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 00,0.00


    Very interesting heat map for R437! Very close to Pugliesi.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Very interesting heat map for R437! Very close to Pugliesi.
    Around 300 BC Puglia was called Messapia.

    You, me and R437 are connected :)




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    What's interesting for me is that the heat map points out that it is closest to other Italian areas including Sicily rather than Albania and Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Around 300 BC Puglia was called Messapia.

    You, me and R437 are connected :)


    I instantly recalled this map, when I saw the heatmap :)

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    2 members found this post helpful.


    Heat map for R850, very interesting indeed! Calabria, and Campania has a strong affinity to 850.

    (Pressed for time this morning, so I didn't get a chance to color this one.)

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    can people upload them to gedmatch ?
    cool maps 👍

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Heat map for R850, very interesting indeed! Calabria, and Campania has a strong affinity to 850.

    (Pressed for time this morning, so I didn't get a chance to color this one.)
    Great work, Jovialis. :)

    Yes, the 850 Ardea sample seems closest to Campanians and Calabresi, and the 487 Latin Prenestini sample to Apulians.

    It makes sense. My husband has ancestry both from Napoli and Calabria and he's at a distance of 10.3 to that sample, although it's only number 14 in ranking order. Strangely, his cousin from the same area in Calabria is a lot further away.

    If you ever get time it would be interesting to see the results for the other Latin Ardea sample.

    @Bigsnake,
    Why would they be closer to Greeks?

    Nice PCA too. I would be nestled right between SZ43 and CL36, but closer to SZ43. :)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    My husband's first 13 hits don't seem to be on the PCA, and he gets quite a few Imperial Era samples, unless the numbers are different?

    For example, is Via Paisiello there? That's his number one match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Great work, Jovialis. :)

    Yes, the 850 Ardea sample seems closest to Campanians and Calabresi, and the 487 Latin Prenestini sample to Apulians.

    It makes sense. My husband has ancestry both from Napoli and Calabria and he's at a distance of 10.3 to that sample, although it's only number 14 in ranking order. Strangely, his cousin from the same area in Calabria is a lot further away.

    If you ever get time it would be interesting to see the results for the other Latin Ardea sample.

    @Bigsnake,
    Why would they be closer to Greeks?

    Nice PCA too. I would be nestled right between SZ43 and CL36, but closer to SZ43. :)
    Well because Puglia is very close to both Albania and Greece there has been quite a lot of migration from those two areas in ancient times.

    The 850 Ardea sample also has a few hotspots in the Greek Islands and Cyprus.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 20-12-19 at 21:37.

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    @Angela, Thanks!
    My short term goal is to get the rest of the Iron Age samples. My long term is to do the whole study. I will also update the PCA along the way; right now it is just those two from the Moots paper.

    @ Kingjohn, I downloaded the BAM files and converted them with WGS Extractor to raw data files. Which I converted to AncestryDNA format in DNA kit studio. However, they are not compatible with Gedmatch. Nevertheless, they are compatible with Admixture Studio, which has all of the same calculators. Which is where I obtained the values for the map, since they have K15.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is a painted version of the R850 map, along with R437, compared to my heat map:





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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Observe the 437 Republican Era Latin, of which R1 Protovillanovan, and R850 Ardea Latin, are exclusively linked:




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    2 members found this post helpful.
    My next set of samples I am working will be the Central Italian Neolithic. I'll post a link to the raw data files when the set is complete. But I can't promise it will be soon. This last file alone was almost 10 gigabytes. Thus far it has the most SNPs I've seen, at over 2 million.

    Here is a heat map of R2, fascinating result! Coriscans, Lazians, Calabrians, and Tuscans are most similar. With Sicilians, and Maltese as a close second; Apulians, Neapolitans, and Marches as close third. As well as Greeks and southern Albanians.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    My next set of samples I am working will be the Central Italian Neolithic. I'll post a link to the raw data files when the set is complete. But I can't promise it will be soon. This last file alone was almost 10 gigabytes. Thus far it has the most SNPs I've seen, at over 2 million.

    Here is a heat map of R2, fascinating result! Coriscans, Lazians, Calabrians, and Tuscans are most similar. With Sicilians, and Maltese as a close second; Apulians, Neapolitans, and Marches as close third. As well as Greeks and southern Albanians.

    Great job, Jovialis. :)

    Absolutely fascinating results, too. So, there we have it, the earliest Italian Neolithic is preserved in Italy from Tuscany south, but more so on the western side of the Apennines. Also in Corsica, which makes sense given the connection to Tuscany. Apulia and Campania are just one point away from Lazio and Campania.

    That raises the question of why Northern Italy is slightly lower, lower than Greece and Albania, (but, of course, much higher than the levels in countries like Spain, France and the Northern Balkans) while in a lot of analyses using multiple Neolithic sample sources, Northern Italy appears to have one of the highest Neolithic survival rates in Europe.

    The first thing that occurs to me is that they received input from populations which contained lots of Neolithic ancestry which was slightly different, perhaps northern Balkan or Central European Neolithic. That, or Italian Neolithic samples from Northern Italy are slightly different, or a combination of both factors. There is one almost completely Neolithic samples in the Parma Beaker set. I wish we could use that for a comparison. I don't think anyone has studied it at all. They're all obsessed only with the steppe.

    The EEF survived in Italy in much higher percentages than in Central Europe, clearly. So much, again, for the proposition that the population of the Italian peninsula and islands was replaced completely during the Imperial Era.

    When I think of the abuse some of us took for proposing a lot of continuity.

    The prevalence of J2 already in Europe during the Neolithic is also a surprise to those "who shall not be named", two in Italy itself.

    As for your post 690, I think the other sample from the Ardea tribe, 851, would also be interesting to see, and would probably show that link to the Protovillanovian as well.

    I know this is such a pain for you, not being funded by any "special interest" group. Have you considered starting a "fund me page" to purchase more computing power? Would that solve the issue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Great job, Jovialis. :)

    Absolutely fascinating results, too. So, there we have it, the earliest Italian Neolithic is preserved in Italy from Tuscany south, but more so on the western side of the Apennines. Also in Corsica, which makes sense given the connection to Tuscany. Apulia and Campania are just one point away from Lazio and Campania.

    That raises the question of why Northern Italy is slightly lower, lower than Greece and Albania, (but, of course, much higher than the levels in countries like Spain, France and the Northern Balkans) while in a lot of analyses using multiple Neolithic sample sources, Northern Italy appears to have one of the highest Neolithic survival rates in Europe.

    The first thing that occurs to me is that they received input from populations which contained lots of Neolithic ancestry which was slightly different, perhaps northern Balkan or Central European Neolithic. That, or Italian Neolithic samples from Northern Italy are slightly different, or a combination of both factors. There is one almost completely Neolithic samples in the Parma Beaker set. I wish we could use that for a comparison. I don't think anyone has studied it at all. They're all obsessed only with the steppe.

    The EEF survived in Italy in much higher percentages than in Central Europe, clearly. So much, again, for the proposition that the population of the Italian peninsula and islands was replaced completely during the Imperial Era.

    When I think of the abuse some of us took for proposing a lot of continuity.

    The prevalence of J2 already in Europe during the Neolithic is also a surprise to those "who shall not be named", two in Italy itself.

    As for your post 690, I think the other sample from the Ardea tribe, 851, would also be interesting to see, and would probably show that link to the Protovillanovian as well.

    I know this is such a pain for you, not being funded by any "special interest" group. Have you considered starting a "fund me page" to purchase more computing power? Would that solve the issue?

    Thanks Angela :)

    In regards to my PC, I plan on getting a new one relatively soon.

    Here is the results for R851. Though something is up with the MTA calculator, it doesn't get itself in the sample list... so perhaps it is not a good means for determining ancestry for some of these samples at the moment. It could also explain why we aren't seeing Italians get it in their results.

    However, it does in fact get the Protovillanovan:





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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Thanks Angela :)

    In regards to my PC, I plan on getting a new one relatively soon.

    Here is the results for R851. Though something is up with the MTA calculator, it doesn't get itself in the sample list... so perhaps it is not a good means for determining ancestry for some of these samples at the moment. It could also explain why we aren't seeing Italians get it in their results.

    However, it does in fact get the Protovillanovan:




    For me, in MTA, this ancient sample appears as follows:



    CLOSEST ANCIENT


    CLOSEST MODERN


    SIMILAR SAMPLES:


    HAPLOGROUPS:



    PCA ANCIENT:


    PCA MODERN:

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    Thanks Duarte!

    There is also something up with the R8 neolthic sample, with MTA. It doesn't get itself either in the list.

    Both R851, and R8 also took an extremely long time to upload, on MTA.

    At any rate, the files are fine on the other calculators.

    Though, they both seem to also not work on Admixturestudio. I let it run for 7 hours, over night, and it never finished processing.

    However, I was able to obtain the values, and coordinates by uploading them to yourdnaportal.com, thankfully!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Thanks Duarte!

    There is also something up with the R8 neolthic sample, with MTA. It doesn't get itself either in the list.

    Both R851, and R8 also took an extremely long time to upload, on MTA.

    At any rate, the files are fine on the other calculators.

    Though, they both seem to also not work on Admixturestudio. I let it run for 7 hours, over night, and it never finished processing.

    However, I was able to obtain the values, and coordinates by uploading them to yourdnaportal.com, thankfully!
    Despite the MTA issue, the Neolithic sample, R8 is indeed similar to R2. So there isn't an issue with the file:



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    3 members found this post helpful.
    R851 vs R1015



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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    My next set of samples I am working will be the Central Italian Neolithic. I'll post a link to the raw data files when the set is complete. But I can't promise it will be soon. This last file alone was almost 10 gigabytes. Thus far it has the most SNPs I've seen, at over 2 million.

    Here is a heat map of R2, fascinating result! Coriscans, Lazians, Calabrians, and Tuscans are most similar. With Sicilians, and Maltese as a close second; Apulians, Neapolitans, and Marches as close third. As well as Greeks and southern Albanians.

    Well, 60 means that R2 is not very similar to any modern population. Being a Neolithic sample, there's nothing unusual about it. Can you post also the K36 results of these samples?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    R851 vs R1015


    Very nice! Higher values for the Etruscan in Italy right where you would expect them. Interesting how "western" they were, with the Veneto and Friuli being lower, but higher in the "Illyrian" samples. Italy is indeed "central" Mediterranean.

    How ludicrous the insistence on the "Herodotus" version of the origin of the Etruscans seems now.

    When you get a chance could you put the maps you've already produced for these ancient Italian samples on one post? Just for ease of comparison.

    The Latins were, from very early on, perhaps more heterogeneous than the Etruscans. Whether that was because the steppe like people hadn't yet completely merged with the Neolithic locals or admixture from southern areas I don't think we can know until we get lots more Northern and Southern Italian Bronze Age samples.

    I'm always asking you to do more work! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Latins were, from very early on, perhaps more heterogeneous than the Etruscans

    Latins were also a considerably smaller population than Etruscans.




    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    with the Veneto and Friuli being lower, but higher in the "Illyrian" samples.

    It's Friuli only there.

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