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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Well, 60 means that R2 is not very similar to any modern population. Being a Neolithic sample, there's nothing unusual about it. Can you post also the K36 results of these samples?
    It's a damn sight closer than 40s or 20s.

    The relationship is there.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's a damn sight closer than 40s or 20s.

    The relationship is there.
    That similarity tool is based on Eurogenes K36, one of the less credible Gedmatch tool. Just a few points of difference in the 36 components is enough to vary the result a lot.

    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm


    However, yes, being the Italians very Neolithic is obvious that the genetic inheritance of the Neolithic has not disappeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    That similarity tool is based on Eurogenes K36, one of the less credible Gedmatch tool. Just a few points of difference in the 36 components is enough to vary the result a lot.
    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
    However, yes, being the Italians very Neolithic is obvious that the genetic inheritance of the Neolithic has not disappeared.
    The raw data files were downloaded from the official data bank and converted by me personally. The values are all relative, despite the credibility of the calculator. Moreover, coordinates can be made for any gedmatch calculator. Especially now thanks to mlukas's new tool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is a painted version of the R850 map, along with R437, compared to my heat map:



    86 is very close, and it makes me damn proud to be this close to a Roman Latin, from the Republican era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The raw data files were downloaded from the official data bank and converted by me personally. The values are all relative, despite the credibility of the calculator. Moreover, coordinates can be made for any gedmatch calculator. Especially now thanks to mlukas's new tool.
    Given Polako's obvious and often stated prejudices, any tinkering he did with the calculators (choice of samples, etc.) would be to make us "less" similar to these ancient samples, so in reality the similarities are probably higher than appear here, but it's good to see, as you say, the relative similarities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Latins were also a considerably smaller population than Etruscans.







    It's Friuli only there.
    Perhaps. Doesn't change that the Latins we have are quite heterogeneous.

    Certainly looks to me like the lower number spills into the Veneto.
    Last edited by Angela; 29-12-19 at 06:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Latins were also a considerably smaller population than Etruscans.







    It's Friuli only there.

    it looks like Friuli, Veneto, trentino ( all south tyrol ) and as far as innsbruck austria
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Given Polako's obvious and often stated prejudices, any tinkering he did with the calculators (choice of samples, etc.) would be to make us "less" similar to these ancient samples, so in reality the similarities are probably higher than appear here, but it's good to see, as you say, the relative similarities.
    People are welcome to analyze the samples themselves with any calculator they'd like. Coordinates can be made for anyone of them via the raw data files I converted. If someone could point me to Italian regional sample BAM files, I'd be more than happy make them usable for other calculators, to be compared to these Iron age samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Given Polako's obvious and often stated prejudices, any tinkering he did with the calculators (choice of samples, etc.) would be to make us "less" similar to these ancient samples, so in reality the similarities are probably higher than appear here, but it's good to see, as you say, the relative similarities.
    I wouldn't be surprised if they are indeed higher. I'd like to see a map tool based on a different calculator as well. It is essentially just a list of modern sample distances that are compared to a target, reorganized as a map.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    People are welcome to analyze the samples themselves with any calculator they'd like. Coordinates can be made for anyone of them via the raw data files I converted. If someone could point me to Italian regional sample BAM files, I'd be more than happy make them usable for other calculators, to be compared to these Iron age samples.
    I'm going to make Late antiquity Roman samples conversion too. I will post zip when I'll convert all. This tool which you used is very fast, only download takes time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas View Post
    I'm going to make Late antiquity Roman samples conversion too. I will post zip when I'll convert all. This tool which you used is very fast, only download takes time.
    hi mlukas,
    can you do it for some of the imperial romans also ?
    for example: like r113

    in my true ancestry tool i am closest to Imperial Rome Empire Via Paisiello (100 AD)
    i guess he is close to east sicilians
    appreciate if you can upload him
    kind regards
    adam
    Last edited by kingjohn; 30-12-19 at 18:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think the green dots are the Italian samples from the Lombard paper. If so, it would be relative to that. Thus near the Northern side of the Imperial Roman cluster, with a proclivity towards the Greek centroid. That's my guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Apulians are north/northeast of the south Italian line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Maybe this might make it a bit easier to decipher.

    I was right :)




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post



    I was right :)



    Indeed you were. :)

    The Dodecad K12b is more in sync with the findings of an academic paper than Eurogenes is, despite being so old.

    As I've been saying for ever, Eurogenes results are slanted, particularly as regards Italians. He's not an honest broker, and never has been, unlike Dienekes.

    I just wish Dienekes was still active so that he could update the calculators or even come up with a new one.

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    With the imperial updates :)


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    I have a new number 1 for now, I'll post the coordinates after a make a few more:

    Distance to: Jovialis
    3.43008746 LA_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_R121
    3.70737104 Imperial_Civitanova_Marche_R836
    4.06829202 MA_Villa_Magna_R60
    6.31831465 MA_Villa_Magna_R59
    6.33613447 MA_Villa_Magna_R65
    6.93178909 C_Italian
    7.03068275 Imperial_Monterotondo_R1549
    7.54746315 IA_Latin_Prenestina_Selicata_437
    7.94664709 O_Italian
    8.53400258 S_Italian_Sicilian
    8.78169118 Sicilian
    8.86584457 Greek
    10.09450841 MA_Villa_Magna_R57
    10.43502755 Tuscan
    10.94765728 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    11.25284853 Albanian_Kosovo
    11.33426663 TSI30
    11.35261203 Greek_Crete
    11.67082259 Ashkenazy_Jews
    11.78232575 Ashkenazi
    12.38747755 Imperial_Monterotondo_R1548
    12.58260307 Albanian_North
    14.42027739 IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1
    14.54204937 IA_Latin_Ardea_R850
    14.94128843 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Here are the Medieval samples compared to the modern Italian samples, using Dodecad 12Kb.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here are the Medieval samples compared to the modern Italian samples, using Dodecad 12Kb.

    Nice. Thanks, Jovialis.

    Have you ever noticed how when remains which are clearly those of Central or Northern Europeans show up in Italian contexts no one suggests that they stayed, had thousands of descendants, and had a large, permanent effect on Italian genetics?

    Let a Syrian show up, though, and he's bound to be our ancestor. No problem with it at all, to be clear, but the agenda of those to whom it would be a tragedy if it applied to "their" country, is very clear for those who have been around for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed you were. :)
    The Dodecad K12b is more in sync with the findings of an academic paper than Eurogenes is, despite being so old.
    As I've been saying for ever, Eurogenes results are slanted, particularly as regards Italians. He's not an honest broker, and never has been, unlike Dienekes.
    I just wish Dienekes was still active so that he could update the calculators or even come up with a new one.
    That's because Eurogenes is an idiot. A polish racist with a dangerous agenda. He makes up stuff to suit his twisted world view. Honestly I think hes mentally unfit. Smart yes but a real sick person in the head. He claims not to be racist which is hilarious.
    Species adapt to their environment,
    and those who do so best (the fittest) survive and prosper the most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    That's because Eurogenes is an idiot. A polish racist with a dangerous agenda. He makes up stuff to suit his twisted world view. Honestly I think hes mentally unfit. Smart yes but a real sick person in the head. He claims not to be racist which is hilarious.
    many people in eastern europe are racist
    you can see that there are almost no foreign immigrants in eastern europe
    compare to western europe
    ........
    so if davidski is i wouldn't be surprised ........
    kind regards
    adam

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    Jovialis: That is a great analysis you did with the K36 Heatmap for the Iron Age Romans and your K36 coordinates. Not to tie in to your analysis but I get Heat scores of 85 in Western Sicily to 81 all the way up to Umbria I believe and have I think a 70 somewhere in the Po Region. So I think your analysis would be consistent with all of us here whose ancestors hail from Campania, Calabria, Basilicata , Puglia, Sicily, etc. Speaking for only myself, thanks for doing this analysis and posting it.

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    Angela: Kudos and well said, I notice the Nordic countries (Sweden, Denmark, Norway) are never scoring higher than 50. Oh well. As an American of Sicilian-Italian ancestry who has dealt with some of the anti Southern Italian stuff on other forums in the past (Italian Antro blog use be frequented by Nordicist types quite a bit and I have been posting there for years), I appreciate you holding their feet to the fire.

    Thanks again

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    Why are imperial Romans so south?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Why are imperial Romans so south?
    Good question, why do none of the Roman samples cluster with Northern Germany, Denmark and Scandanavia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Good question, why do none of the Roman samples cluster with Northern Germany, Denmark and Scandanavia?
    I asked because they are more south than Southern Italy and the rest of other Romans, which suprised me. Were those samples taken from central Italy? Why did you assume I am a Nordicist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I asked because they are more south than Southern Italy and the rest of other Romans, which suprised me. Were those samples taken from central Italy? Why did you assume I am a Nordicist?
    I interpreted the question "Why are Imperial Romans so South?" to mean Southern Italy and Sicily. My apologies if that is not what you meant. In the short time I have been here since October, I have run into a few with Nordicist ideology. So if I got a little snippy again I apologize. Could be just related to history? By the Imperial era, Roman provinces were in the Levant, Anatolia, etc and maybe some Roman soldier married a local woman and moved back. Maybe some people in those provinces obtained citizenship and moved to Rome for economic opportunities? Not sure, there are some sharp people here who can probably provide some other plausible explanations. Again my apologies.

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