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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Nope. But those rumours were saying that there would be a difference.

    And that Romans would be Mycenaean-like genetically (= South Italian).

    I saw people claiming that Rome was founded by the Greeks or Trojans, just like in one of legends about Aeneas:

    https://www.thoughtco.com/the-myth-f...of-rome-117754

    Genetics proves that this is false and that the legend about local Latin founders (Romulus & Remus) is more true.
    We have been saying on this site for a long time of the possibility that the Republican Romans were shifted north and the imperial Romans were shifted south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No, these samples range from 900 BCE to 27 BCE and genetic profile did not change much in that period. Rome was founded in 753 BCE. Median age of these samples is given as "320 BCE Roman Republic" (map):
    The Iron age Latin samples are from Latin cities but not from Rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The J2b2-L283 that is found in Cittavechia is from 700-600BC, and most likely has origin from the Croatian coast as it is under the same branch despite being near 1000 years younger.

    Aeneas was a Dardanian, they are connected with Trojans, but not the same thing, so don't go discounting just yet. There could have been truth in the myth.

    When are you going to stop talking nonsense about the Etruscans? This study has shown that there are no significant differences between Etruscans and Latins. Bringing out the old theories of an eastern origin of the Etruscans is really inappropriate and ridiculous on the basis of a single Y-DNA that was in Croatia around 1500 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I do not think so. But rumours were saying that there would be a difference.

    And that Romans would be Mycenaean-like genetically (= South Italian-like).

    I saw people claiming that Rome was founded by the Greeks or Trojans, just like in one of legends about Aeneas:

    https://www.thoughtco.com/the-myth-f...of-rome-117754

    Genetics proves that this is false and that the legend about local Latin founders (Romulus & Remus) is more true.
    I don't think I have seen anyone here claim that the Latins, who were early Romans; were Greek-like. Certainly, not I:



    However, in the south, the people in the outskirts of the cities were Greek-like, since it used to be Magna Graecia. Thus, after the cities fell, it would be been repopulated largely be these kind of people there, in addition to the Italic-like people.

    Also, you are wrong about Southern Italian DNA disappearing after repopulation. As a matter of fact it existed in central Italy in the Medieval period! :) Take a look at the PCA, they are yellow dots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I don't think I have seen anyone here claim that the Latins, who were early Romans; were Greek-like. Certainly, not I:



    However, in the south, the people in the outskirts of the cities were Greek-like, since it used to be Magna Graecia. Thus, after the cities fell, it would be been repopulated largely be these kind of people there, in addition to the Italic-like people.

    Also, you are wrong about Southern Italian DNA disappearing after repopulation. As a matter of fact it existed in central Italy in the Medieval period! :) Take a look at the PCA, they are yellow dots.


    What had disappeared where the people who were South of south Italians.

    There were migrations of people from exotic locations, that were not supplemented with continuous waves. Moreover, the lack of modern public works meant that their legacy would not have lasted. That is what Razib Khan said about these people.

    The fact that more than half of the Central Italian population in the medieval to early modern period is slightly south of the of where it is today, should give you an idea of who repopulated it. While the people to the North of northern Italians, are obviously invaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    The Iron age Latin samples are from Latin cities but not from Rome.




    When are you going to stop talking nonsense about the Etruscans? This study has shown that there are no significant differences between Etruscans and Latins. Bringing out the old theories of an eastern origin of the Etruscans is really inappropriate and ridiculous on the basis of a single Y-DNA that was in Croatia around 1500 BC.

    Im not claiming that L283 is native etruscan, i'm specifically saying it is not etruscan but illyrian, that assimilated with the locals. That is what the Aeneid describes.

    Leonard Palmer mentions this process being present in mixed Illyrian / Etruscan / Italic names:

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    So, most Republican Era Romans are pretty close to Northwestern Italians, with some drifting toward Tuscans? Close enough. :)

    Basically what we've been saying here all along, as Salento has pointed out.

    One is more Sardinian like, and one more Central Italian like.

    The burial context is very important here. What are the class differences, if any?

    The Neolithic people in the vicinity of Rome already had CHG or Iranian Neolithic like ancestry.

    "Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA (13, 14, 1719) (Fig. 2A). However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12). Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12) (14). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe."

    So I said for 5 years, to much derision. There was Iranian and J2 in Italy in the Neolithic. I wonder if there was even more in the south?

    Could this be Cardial versus Danubian? Yet, it doesn't show up in the Spanish Neolithic, which came from Cardial. Perhaps it's from a movement closer to the Copper Age, and via Northern Greece?

    As to the yDna, could the R1b be V88? The J2's are definitely Caucasus like, yes?

    For Iron Age Rome...


    "
    We collected data from 11 Iron Age individuals dating from 900 to 200 BCE (including the Republican period). This group shows a clear ancestry shift from the Copper Age, interpreted by ADMIXTURE as the addition of a Steppe-related ancestry component and an increase in the Neolithic Iranian component (Figs. 2B and 3B). Using qpAdm, we modeled the genetic shift by an introduction of ~30 to 40% ancestry from Bronze and Iron Age nomadic populations from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (table S15), similar to many Bronze Age populations in Europe (10, 13, 14, 19, 22). The presence of Steppe-related ancestry in Iron Age Italy could have happened through genetic exchange with intermediary populations (5, 23). Additionally, multiple source populations could have contributed, simultaneously or subsequently, to the ancestry transition before Iron Age. By 900 BCE at the latest, the inhabitants of central Italy had begun to approximate the genetics of modern Mediterranean populations."

    "Although we were able to model eight of the 11 individuals as two-way mixtures of Copper Age central Italians and a Steppe-related population (~24 to 38%) using qpAdm, this model was rejected for the other three individuals (p < 0.001; table S16). Instead, two individuals from Latin sites (R437 and R850) can be modeled as a mixture between local people and an ancient Near Eastern population (best approximated by Bronze Age Armenian or Iron Age Anatolian; tables S17 and S18). An Etruscan individual (R475) carries significant African ancestry identified by f-statistics (|Z-score|>3; fig. S23) and can be modeled with ~53% ancestry from Late Neolithic Moroccan (table S19). Together these results suggest substantial genetic heterogeneity within the Etruscan (n = 3 individuals) and Latin (n = 6) groups. However, using f-statistics, we did not find significant genetic differentiation between the Etruscans and Latins in allele sharing with any preceding or contemporaneous population (|Z-score|<2), although the power to detect subtle genetic differentiation is limited by the small sample size."

    Well, there's a bit of a surprise in terms of one of the Etruscans? Someone took a foreign bride? :) Too bad three of the Etruscans are female.

    Odd using an Iberomaurusian for comparison. Surely they could use someone more contemporaneous, or even modern?

    I really have to dig into the burial contexts, if they provide enough data. It's important. It seems all of the imperial samples are from the port area. Yes, I get that they may be second generation or something, going by isotopes, but this is a specific group, not necessarily representative of all Italian Imperial Romans.
    Hell, it's like some archaeologist from the future finding a big bunch of samples in Flushing who are East Asian.

    I'm also highly skeptical that the big northern shift in Late Antiquity is from Lombards and Goths, for God's sake. There were too few of them, especially by the time they got to Rome, and where is there a sign of sufficient I1 or U-106 to make that big a change? The samples just don't come from a "Little Levant".

    Maybe I'll feel differently after I go through the whole supplement and check the context for each sample, but it just seems to me there's a lot of sheer speculation here.

    I do think it's funny that they maintain the shift is to the north in Antiquity. Remember that paper that said, based on modern samples, and using a dating tool, that in Antiquity there was a huge movement of Byzantine Anatolians and Levantines into Italy. I even wrote to them and said if there was a shift in Antiquity it would be north, because of the Barbarian invasions. They said that wasn't what their data showed. I responded that maybe they had their locals and intruders mixed up. All the usual suspects joined on that band wagon. Guess it was wrong. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What had disappeared where the people who were South of south Italians.

    There were migrations of people from exotic locations, that were not supplemented with continuous waves. Moreover, the lack of modern public works meant that their legacy would not have lasted. That is what Razib Khan said about these people.

    The fact that more than half of the Central Italian population in the medieval to early modern period is slightly south of the of where it is today, should give you an idea of who repopulated it. While the people to the North of northern Italians, are obviously invaders.
    First they saddle us with the ravings of the people at anthrogenica, and then they misinterpret the map.

    You're exactly right: the people who disappeared are the more East Med and Levantine people. I was sort of joking a few weeks ago when I said maybe they disappeared because they went to the Rhineland. Who knows? Many died during Antiquity, or moved away to better areas for trade, as early as when Constantinople was established, and maybe some indeed went north.

    They can speculate all they want about all this northern ancestry making its way into Rome and accounting for the disappearance of East Med like samples. Did it never occur to them that they just left, or were killed (yes, I know, they give a bow to that)? As I've asked before, where is all the I1 and U-106 in Rome today, enough to account for this big change? Even in the Veneto and Piemonte, where Lombards did settle, they're very much a minority.

    When the large cities in Italy started to decline people left. They were repopulated by people from the countryside. I think it may be as simple as that, although I'm keeping an open mind. I'm hoping for better things from the Reich group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    The Neolithic people in the vicinity of Rome already had CHG or Iranian Neolithic like ancestry.

    "Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA (13, 14, 1719) (Fig. 2A). However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12). Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12) (14). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe."

    So I said for 5 years, to much derision. There was Iranian and J2 in Italy in the Neolithic. I wonder if there was even more in the south?

    Could this be Cardial versus Danubian? Yet, it doesn't show up in the Spanish Neolithic, which came from Cardial. Perhaps it's from a movement closer to the Copper Age, and via Northern Greece?

    As to the yDna, could the R1b be V88? The J2's are definitely Caucasus like, yes?



    I noticed these Neolithic people in the vicinity of Rome are just as south, but further west of Southern Italians.

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    Can we please stop with Herodotus and the Aeneid? We have better tools now.

    The Etruscans, with the exception of the one with "foreign" maternal ancestry, and the Latins were similar autosomally. The Etruscans didn't come, during the first millennium BC, from Lydia in Anatolia or from Troy by way of the Balkans.

    I'm sorry, but the Etruscans weren't Semites, despite the foreign bride, and they certainly weren't Albanians. J2b seems to have been pretty widespread. Who knows precisely how and when it arrived in Italy, although it may have been via the Balkans.

    Give it a rest, people.

    Find your ethnic validation in your own ancestors.

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    Straw man. I commented nothing on the Etruscans being Illyrians. They are two seperate things. I clearly stated that the L283 sample has Illyrian origin. This is hard to argue against since it is in the same branch of the 1000 year older coastal Illyrian sample. There is an Illyrian movement to Rome, and I'm not claiming anything about Etruscans or Italics, but the Illyrians, which are neither of those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    I noticed these Neolithic people in the vicinity of Rome are just as south, but further west of Southern Italians.
    From Central Italian-Southern Italian.

    Year ago, when Otzi's genome came out, Dienekes did some analyses that showed that after the Sardinians, Southern Italians were pretty close to him too. Northern Italians and Tuscans have a lot of EEF too.

    When push comes to shove, and all this talk of all these migrations, Central and Southern Italians haven't moved all that far.

    I misspoke a bit. There are three "outlier" Iron Age Romans. One is still Sardinian like (different burial?), one is Central Italian like, and one is Southern Italian like.

    The authors never address the fact that some of this movement into Rome could have been from Southern Italy, which is a big problem.

    Well, after all is said and done, the Etruscans and the "original" Romans were Southern Europeans, not Germans or Scandinavians or Slavs.

    They also seem to be pretty close to Northwestern Italians. My father must be crying with joy. :)

    @Johane,
    Perhaps, or perhaps both the Etruscans and Illyrians got it from a similar ancestor population. There is absolutely no way of knowing at the present time, no matter the wishful thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I misspoke a bit. There are three "outlier" Iron Age Romans. One is still Sardinian like (different burial?), one is Central Italian like, and one is Southern Italian like.
    The 11 Iron age individuals include 7 Roman/Latins (R851, R1, R1016, R1021, R435, R437, R850) and 4 Etruscans (R1015, R474, R473, R475). The three outliers are two Roman/Latins (R437, R850) and one Etruscan (R475).

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    The Iron age Latin samples are from Latin cities but not from Rome.




    When are you going to stop talking nonsense about the Etruscans? This study has shown that there are no significant differences between Etruscans and Latins. Bringing out the old theories of an eastern origin of the Etruscans is really inappropriate and ridiculous on the basis of a single Y-DNA that was in Croatia around 1500 BC.
    Well said
    And also etruscans ruled over romans for nearly 200 years....there was a lot of mixing
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
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    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    I bet the Iranian farmer like genes in Neolithic farmers who were in what is now Rome is part of why southern Italians are close to Mycenaeans bc im sure Neolithic Greeks had this Iranian component as well and obviously Mycenaeans descend from these farmers.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I bet the Iranian farmer like genes in Neolithic farmers who were in what is now Rome is part of why southern Italians are close to Mycenaeans bc im sure Neolithic Greeks had this Iranian component as well and obviously Mycenaeans descend from these farmers.
    I agree with that. Also the amount of Iranian-like ancestry in the Iron age samples, are comparable to the Steppe.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm hoping for better things from the Reich group.
    Me too, I recall this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    "The bones we're looking at right now are about five or six thousand year old samples from Italy. And we’re trying to understand population transformations in Italy over time.” -David Reich

    He says this right off the bat in this PBS video. This came out on June 6th.



    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/th...ted-we-all-are

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    R850....T1a1-L208.........mtdna T2c1f

    R1543...T1a1-Z709.........H1e

    R120....T1a2-L446.....I1c

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I was wrong about all the Imperial Roman samples coming from Isola Sacra near Ostia, although a good number do. They're actually from some necropoli around the city of Rome itself as well. So, not like future archaeologists excavating just in Flushing. It's like archaeologists excavating in New York City as a whole, or London.

    However, the burial contexts tell us nothing. There's no grave goods, no inscriptions, not even names from what I can see, and there's been disturbances at a lot of the sites.

    Interestingly enough, some of the samples come from the Catacombs of Peter and Paul. I have to check tomorrow and see if those are more "East Med", i.e. the samples south and east of modern Southern Italians. It would make sense. The first Christians, and the only Christians for a long time were Jews.

    In that regard, look what happens to the J1 in ancient Italy after the Imperial Era.


    Razib Khan continues to get it:
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...medium=twitter

    "A combination of the wars of the 6th-century, which are recorded to have depopulated much of Italy, and the overall decentering of Rome from the Mediterranean system after the ending of the Western Empire, probably resulted in the inevitable contraction of the Eternal City.Of course, Rome grew again over the centuries. But the new Romans were not the same Romans as those of the Roman Empire, who left few descendants. In addition to far off cosmopolitans, the bulk of the population was probably derived from northern Lazio and southern Tuscany. Rural people whose genetic makeup resembled the Iron Age Italians from whom they descended."

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    Any ideas who were these Iran Neolithic people in Italy?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Any ideas who were these Iran Neolithic people in Italy?
    I sincerely doubt they were CHG/Iran Neo people straight from south of the Caucasus. It was mixed in with Anatolian Neo. This ancestry was already in Italy in the Neolithic, as the paper points out, along with J2 lineages. We saw it in the period of the Anatolian Neolithic too, and in Greece. It increased in Italy as time went on.

    What I want to see is if its arrival in the area around Rome already by the time of the Republic was via Southern Italy or directly from the East. In either case, again, of course, mixed in with Anatolian Neolithic.

    It's just a matter of differing percentages.

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    PCA of ancient Italian samples along with other ancient samples.

    Well, now I know why mytrueancestry result show all that sharing with the Scythian from Moldova.




    Look how close the Mycenaeans are to those ancient Imperial samples.

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    This is very interesting, but I'd like to see one for each of the Imperial Era burial sites to see if there are differences.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is very interesting, but I'd like to see one for each of the Imperial Era burial sites to see if there are differences.

    Interesting, so the samples that were South of Southern Italians, which disappeared after the fall of the Roman Empire, only came from one grave site.

    I don't know how they can use that to make the claim that the entire Italian genome was changed by this kind of ethnicity. Especially when their own data shows that it disappears after Late Antiquity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Thanks for sharing, it kind of illustrates how naive the inferences in this study are.

    NOTHING from Bronze age Italy???

    No wonder there is a massive jump in Iran-like ancestry. It must have come from the South, via Greeks and previous Bronze Age populations there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Interesting, so the samples that were South of Southern Italians, which disappeared after the fall of the Roman Empire, only came from one grave site.

    I don't know how they can use that to make the claim that the entire Italian genome was changed by this kind of ethnicity. Especially when their own data shows that it disappears after Late Antiquity.



    Thanks for sharing, it kind of illustrates how naive the inferences in this study are.

    NOTHING from Bronze age Italy???

    No wonder there is a massive jump in Iran-like ancestry. It must have come from the South, via Greeks and previous Bronze Age populations there.

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