Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

[Angela]

Guys, could we leave the politics behind and get back to the paper?

 

[LTG]

How "low quality"? Are there other samples on the datasheet of similar or "lower" quality?

Is there access to them for independent modeling?

If I remember correctly they couldn?t function properly in GEDmatch; lacking in the required SNP?s. There are other samples of lower quality but they are normally marked in the data sheet as such, and are very rarely used. I have no idea just how bad each of them is though.

As to the Greeks from Empuries, the post from LTG using G25 seems to indicate that one of the Empuries' samples has more "Iranian" type ancestry than the Mycenaeans, doesn't it? Unless you mean that it's still roughly in the same range. I had already speculated that the more Iranian heavy sample might be from Ionian Greece.

It looks like one of the Greeks does indeed show slightly elevated levels of Caucasus admixture relative to Mycenaeans. However, this does not take into account the Anatolian Neolithic admixture within Kura-Araxes; in reality, this 6% increase from Mycenaean to Empuries:l8208 may account to as little as 3% CHG-related admixture all things considered. Empuries:l8215 has less Kura-Araxes admixture than the Mycenaeans even though he is likely Ionian so it's not cut and dry. The level of genetic continuity is quite impressive when you consider the stretch of time between the Late Helladic to Roman Empire.

 

[LTG]

I ran a K-means cluster analysis on the Imperial Romans in PAST (data program for PCA?s, neighbor joining trees and other analysis). I removed the obvious outlier samples that fell somewhere long the MENA cline. I then asked the program to divide the remaining samples into 4 distinct clusters based on their genetic correlation before working out the average of these different cluster groups. Once the centroid had been found I ran those coordinates against the Global 25 datasheet to find their closest population representatives; they happened to coincide with certain genetic locations for the most part.

C1) West Mediterranean
RMPR37, RMPR111, RMPR116

C2) Aegean
RMPR39, RMPR40, RMPR41,RMPR43, RMPR44, RMPR50, RMPR51, RMPR66, RMPR69, RMPR72, RMPR75, RMPR78, RMPR81, RMPR114, RMPR115, RMPR123, RMPR126, RMPR1543, RMPR1545

C3) Anatolia
RMPR38, RMPR128, RMPR76

C4) South Italy
RMPR45, RMPR47, RMPR49, RMPR73, RMPR80, RMPR113, RMPR125, RMPR131, RMPR132, RMPR436, RMPR835, RMPR836, RMPR1544, RMPR1548, RMPR1549

 

[Angela]

I ran a K-means cluster analysis on the Imperial Romans in PAST (data program for PCA�s, neighbor joining trees and other analysis). I removed the obvious outlier samples that fell somewhere long the MENA cline. I then asked the program to divide the remaining samples into 4 distinct clusters based on their genetic correlation before working out the average of these different cluster groups. Once the centroid had been found I ran those coordinates against the Global 25 datasheet to find their closest population representatives; they happened to coincide with certain genetic locations for the most part.

C1) West Mediterranean
RMPR37, RMPR111, RMPR116

C2) Aegean
RMPR39, RMPR40, RMPR41,RMPR43, RMPR44, RMPR50, RMPR51, RMPR66, RMPR69, RMPR72, RMPR75, RMPR78, RMPR81, RMPR114, RMPR115, RMPR123, RMPR126, RMPR1543, RMPR1545

C3) Anatolia
RMPR38, RMPR128, RMPR76

C4) South Italy
RMPR45, RMPR47, RMPR49, RMPR73, RMPR80, RMPR113, RMPR125, RMPR131, RMPR132, RMPR436, RMPR835, RMPR836, RMPR1544, RMPR1548, RMPR1549

Thanks.

Could you list the sample numbers for the ones you removed, i.e. the ones in the Middle Eastern cline?

 

[Pax Augusta]

Political forces of both sides weaponize ignorance. Far-leftists use the 19th, and 20th century Nordicist standard of race, to make their arguments. It is an outmoded straw man only used by people that don't know anything about human population genetics.

Exactly so, same arguments for apparently different reasons.

We are in a perverse era where everyone uses things as they please and dares to share identities in the same way.

The issue of identity can be painful for some migrants, especially the first generations, and I fully understand that. Their identity is no longer that of their countries of origin and not yet that of the countries where they were born and raised. I think she lacks complete self-awareness of what she is, and she is using exactly the same arguments as the nordicists.

In any case, it is wrong to manipulate ancient history to give an answer to the problems of contemporary society, and this applies to both far-right propaganda and its opposite. So let's get back to the topic.

 

[LTG]

Thanks.

Could you list the sample numbers for the ones you removed, i.e. the ones in the Middle Eastern cline?

They look like they have origins in Lebanon and Syria.

It's pretty funny how the media jumped all over the apparent fact that Romans were very similar to people from this region. These guys compromised a mere 14.5% of Imperial Roman samples, and that is after the researchers purposefully excavated the most cosmopolitan areas that they could possibly find.

C5) Middle East
RMPR1551, RMPR67, RMPR68, RMPR42, RMPR1547, RMPR1550, RMPR70

 

[Pax Augusta]

They look like they have origins in Lebanon and Syria.

It's pretty funny how the media jumped all over the apparent fact that Romans were very similar to people from this region. These guys compromised a mere 14.5% of Imperial Roman samples, and that is after the researchers purposefully excavated the most cosmopolitan areas that they could possibly find.

C5) Middle East
RMPR1551, RMPR67, RMPR68, RMPR42, RMPR1547, RMPR1550, RMPR70

They're most likely from here. Do you have exact information about the date of these samples? It is not surprising that there were also migrants to Rome from this part of the Empire.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Syria


Edit: found.


Monterotondo
Date range: 26 BCE - 300 CE
Individuals: R1551, R1547, R1550


ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strade)
Date range: 100 - 300 CE
Individuals: R67, R68, R70


Isola Sacra necropolis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isola_Sacra_Necropolis

Date Range: 1 CE - 400 CE
Individuals: R42

 

[Ailchu]

Exactly so, same arguments for apparently different reasons.




The issue of identity can be painful for some migrants, especially the first generations, and I fully understand that. Their identity is no longer that of their countries of origin and not yet that of the countries where they were born and raised. I think she lacks complete self-awareness of what she is, and she is using exactly the same arguments as the nordicists.

In any case, it is wrong to manipulate ancient history to give an answer to the problems of contemporary society, and this applies to both far-right propaganda and its opposite. So let's get back to the topic.

be aware of the fact that many people in the new country do not even want to give her the same identity even if she was born and raised there. see the thread of angela about turks in germany.

when i read her text, yes it sounds somehow wrong but she is right in some way. and it looks like it is adressed at spanish nordicists and racists, the core of the article is true and is something that purists don't want to realize. consider a german author who wrote exactly the same thing adressing german racists, but instead of the moors the author writes about balkans, italy or greece.
yes it would be a bit of a lie because the dark features in germans did not necessarily come from those people but they shared the same source populations and thus they have similar features, and they really just aren't pure.

Far-leftists use the 19th, and 20th century Nordicist standard of race, to make their arguments. It is an outmoded straw man only used by people that don't know anything about human population genetics.

same goes for the far-right.

 

[Carlos]

be aware of the fact that many people in the new country do not even want to give her the same identity even if she was born and raised there. see the thread of angela about turks in germany.

when i read her text, yes it sounds somehow wrong but she is right in some way. and it looks like it is adressed at spanish nordicists and racists, the core of the article is true and is something that purists don't want to realize. consider a german author who wrote exactly the same thing adressing german racists, but instead of the moors the author writes about balkans, italy or greece.
yes it would be a bit of a lie because the dark features in germans did not necessarily come from those people but still they shared the same source populations and thus they have similar features, and they really just aren't pure.

I will not answer, I do not feel like an infraction. I am very pacified. You are going to eat what Cain ate.

 

[Pax Augusta]

be aware of the fact that many people in the new country do not even want to give her the same identity even if she was born and raised there. see the thread of angela about turks in germany.

when i read her text, yes it sounds somehow wrong but she is right in some way. and it looks like it is adressed at spanish nordicists and racists, the core of the article is true and is something that purists don't want to realize. consider a german author who wrote exactly the same thing adressing german racists, but instead of the moors the author writes about balkans, italy or greece.
yes it would be a bit of a lie because the dark features in germans did not necessarily come from those people but still they shared the same source populations and thus they have similar features, and they really just aren't pure. same goes for the far-right.

Identity is not something that is given and often social identity also depends on self-identity. You have just demonstrated that the subject is extremely complex and often based, on both sides, on very superficial personal opinions. There are many fully native Germans who could pass unnoticed in southern Europe and not in the most Nordic range of the spectrum. Precisely for this reason, it is better to return to the topic.

 

[LTG]

They're most likely from here. Do you have exact information about the date of these samples? It is not surprising that there were also migrants to Rome from this part of the Empire.

Edit: found.

Monterotondo
Date range: 26 BCE - 300 CE
Individuals: R1551, R1547, R1550

ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strade)
Date range: 100 - 300 CE
Individuals: R67, R68, R70

Isola Sacra necropolis
Date Range: 1 CE - 400 CE
Individuals: R42

RMPR42, RMPR1550, RMPR1547 and RMPR70 overlap with the Roman Lebanese samples. RMPR1551, RMPR67, RMPR68 are more like Syrians but still very similar.

These guys were obviously of very similar ethnic origins because they lived, worked and died in the same vicinity across space and time. They likely belonged to a small ethnic enclave of merchants or tradespeople from the Levant that migrated to work in the cosmopolitan areas of the Rome. The samples who cluster like Aegeans, Anatolians and South Italians are so numerous in comparison to them that it would make sense that J2 would persist into Late Antiquity whilst J1 fizzles out.

 

[torzio]

maybe Vox is wrong, but this author is worse

she is identifying todays North Africans with the Moors
the Moors are something of the past, they are neither todays Spaniards nor todays North Africans
their cultural identity was something completely different
and I am not an expert in history, but there even is not such thing like 'The Moors', because the Moors of the 8th century were quite different from the Moors of the 14th century

Moors are just Berbers that have been arabanized from after the end of the Roman and Vandal periods

 

[torzio]

They look like they have origins in Lebanon and Syria.

It's pretty funny how the media jumped all over the apparent fact that Romans were very similar to people from this region. These guys compromised a mere 14.5% of Imperial Roman samples, and that is after the researchers purposefully excavated the most cosmopolitan areas that they could possibly find.

C5) Middle East
RMPR1551, RMPR67, RMPR68, RMPR42, RMPR1547, RMPR1550, RMPR70

Where will sample R1 fit.....a proto-villanovan

 

[LTG]

Where will sample R1 fit.....a proto-villanovan

The Proto-Villanovan is part of the West Mediterranean cluster (C1).

Distance to:	ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.02247622	Italian_Lombardy
0.02469763	Italian_Piedmont
0.02693698	Italian_Bergamo
0.02854606	Italian_Liguria
0.02981491	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03032773	Italian_Veneto
0.03042507	Greek_Thessaly
0.03150689	Swiss_Italian
0.03187754	Italian_Tuscany
0.03430165	Italian_Northeast

 

[torzio]

The Proto-Villanovan is part of the Western Mediterranean cluster (C1).

Distance to:	ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.02247622	Italian_Lombardy
0.02469763	Italian_Piedmont
0.02693698	Italian_Bergamo
0.02854606	Italian_Liguria
0.02981491	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03032773	Italian_Veneto
0.03042507	Greek_Thessaly
0.03150689	Swiss_Italian
0.03187754	Italian_Tuscany
0.03430165	Italian_Northeast

thanks .....i cannot tick you as it keeps saying I am a guest

I wonder if you can match this R1 ( picene) sample with I3313 ( dalmatian ) as these are my top 2 matches...with R1 a full 2 points clear

 

[brick]

The Proto-Villanovan is part of the West Mediterranean cluster (C1).

Distance to:	ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.02247622	Italian_Lombardy
0.02469763	Italian_Piedmont
0.02693698	Italian_Bergamo
0.02854606	Italian_Liguria
0.02981491	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03032773	Italian_Veneto
0.03042507	Greek_Thessaly
0.03150689	Swiss_Italian
0.03187754	Italian_Tuscany
0.03430165	Italian_Northeast

Where does Greek Thessaly's value come from? The Greeks in the G25 are certainly mostly from Northern Greece but there is no Greek Thessaly label anywhere in G25.

 

[brick]

Where will sample R1 fit.....a proto-villanovan

In the PCA Proto-Villanovan plots in Italian_Piedmont's cluster, a little bit to the east.

Distances. Distances are never exactly the same as the PCA because the G25 is based on coordinates and this PCA is 2D.

 

[LTG]

Where does Greek Thessaly's value come from? The Greeks in the G25 are certainly mostly from Northern Greece but there is no Greek Thessaly label anywhere in G25.

They were updated today.

 

[brick]

They were updated today.

I didn't know that. Davidski's always changing his averages, who knows why.

He didn't update them, he just changed the labels, those three samples from Thessaly had already been uploaded into the Greek cluster.

 

[brick]

The PCA with all individual results of ITA_Rome_Imperial. In the second PCA the cluster of ITA_Rome_Imperial.

individual results

cluster