Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

[Salento]

LivingDNA too, confuses North Italy with the British Isles.

I get 11+%, and more or less, they assign British to most Italians too.

[Angela]

the ancient italic tribes more resembled britsh/irish as opposed to the more scandanavian northern germanics.

most of those roman busts arent showing nordic features but rather celtic ones. agrippa moreso resembles paul gallen (rugby player) than a swede.

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Yes, the ancient Romans look SO, SO, "CELTIC".


My mother's father looked just like him, and I assure you that nobody would EVER think he was British.

And poor Agrippa didn't look anything like that extremely ugly man: colorized bust.







Take your t-rolling elsewhere.

As for being "happy" about the ancient Roman and Etruscan results, I have ego enough that I'm happy that I was right about both of them for almost seven years, and that I stuck to my guns despite the ridicule, name calling, labeling me as a racist, and even, once, threats that came my way regularly.

[Salento]

Haha! Well, that isn't surprising, is it? The steppe-admixed ancestry in those ancient Italics and Etruscans isn't but ~25-40% (varies by location and individual), and the modern English have lots of North Germanic/Scandinavian admixture. But, considering linguistics and the events in Bronze Age Europe, it would surprise no one, I believe, if the earliest Proto-Italics were pretty much French/British Celtic-like originally.

Would you really be troubled to be related to these Welsh babes, honestly? lol

I’m totally OK with it :)

[lynxbythetv]

Yes, the ancient Romans look SO, SO, "CELTIC".


My mother's father looked just like him, and I assure you that nobody would EVER think he was British.

And poor Agrippa didn't look anything like that extremely ugly man: colorized bust.







Take your t-rolling elsewhere.

As for being "happy" about the ancient Roman and Etruscan results, I have ego enough that I'm happy that I was right about both of them for almost seven years, and that I stuck to my guns despite the ridicule, name calling, labeling me as a racist, and even, once, threats that came my way regularly.

no not the ancient romans in general, just a certain segment carried stronger steppe admixture just as others would have carried more calcolithic adnixture. see what i mean, this is wherethings get real dicey on these boards.

mark ruffalo is part french.

a poster earlier on seemed happy that the myceneans are coming out as J2 and not R1B let alone the dreaded R1A.

look around the eyes, that slight droop, the longish head and the big nose. paul gallens looks far more like agrippa than mark ruffalo.

even you yourself said at one stage they look more like balkaners, which ones exactly. dont say albanians because they have many celtic types among them.

im not trolling at all.

also is that a bust of caesar, well he probably does look more italian. i never said all the roman emperor busts look celtic, just pointing out some do.

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[lynxbythetv]

chael sonnen also has that kind of look. so you agree ?

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[torzio]

LivingDNA too, confuses North Italy with the British Isles.

I get 11+%, and more or less, they assign British to most Italians too.

LivingDNA is rubbish ..............waited 20 months, no results, cancelled and got my money back

[Salento]

LivingDNA is rubbish ..............waited 20 months, no results, cancelled and got my money back

I had no trouble with the Standard order by mail.

but... disappointed with the old free “One World Family”

Now you can upload Ancestry, 23, FTDNA, ... for free and then pay $39 for autosomal results.

[torzio]

I had no trouble with the Standard order by mail.

but... disappointed with the old free “One World Family”

you could upload Ancestry, 23, FTDNA, ... for free and then pay $39 for autosomal results.

yes......but as an italian, what do you get ?

It seems they like to concentrate on the UK

[Salento]

yes......but as an italian, what do you get ?

It seems they like to concentrate on the UK

for Italy, they only have North, South, Tuscany, and Sardinia.
(G.B. = North Italy, I think :)

[bicicleur]

Yes, the ancient Romans look SO, SO, "CELTIC".


My mother's father looked just like him, and I assure you that nobody would EVER think he was British.

who says modern Brits are Celtic?

[lynxbythetv]

who says modern Brits are Celtic?

me.

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[Ygorcs]

me.

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That'd be wrong, unless you refer to the Welsh, who apparently have quite little post-Antiquity gene flow. The English and the Scottish have lots of later admixture from North German/Scandinavian lands, as much as ~40-50% in some areas. So, genetically they're not the same as their partial Iron Age ancestors.

[hrvclv]

Go there : https://vahaduo.github.io/custompca/

Paste the data below in "data". Then flip both PC1 and PC2 to have the north in the right place.
Then look what happens. Iron Age Italics, Etruscans, Proto-Villanovan plot between Halstatt DA111 and the Lech Valley BB samples, among a crowd of Bavarian BB samples just above, and Iberian BBs just below. In other words, right where today's French and Swiss samples get packed together.

Looks like they did come from north of the Alps, and were by the Iron Age in the process of admixing with Remedello-like pops. What happened later is a different story. And I can't think what nordicism might have to do with that.

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Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4229,0.120652,0.160454,0.04789 4,-0.023902,0.077553,-0.013387,-0.008695,0.005077,0.053176,0.072894,-0.003897,0.012439,-0.037611,-0.015689,-0.004072,-0.001326,0.003129,0.005574,0.000628,-0.004252,0.018218,-0.000495,-0.017624,-0.025666,-0.000239
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I4247,0.12862,0.178733,0.034695 ,-0.030685,0.080323,-0.021753,-0.012926,0.01223,0.065652,0.101141,-0.000162,0.024578,-0.021556,-0.022845,-0.009093,0.018695,0.023339,-0.004434,0.001257,-0.007879,0.010731,0.006677,-0.019227,-0.035186,0.001437
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I5665,0.126344,0.149283,0.05279 7,0.012274,0.068936,0.000837,-0.011281,-0.001385,0.043768,0.049204,0.001624,0.014687,-0.02438,-0.008945,0.001493,-0.002121,-0.008736,0.009755,0.004777,-0.00025,0.013227,0.001113,-0.00456,-0.027474,0.000838
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6472,0.135449,0.144205,0.07655 5,0.015181,0.048009,-0.009482,-0.015276,0.000923,0.035383,0.049933,0.001624,0.016 935,-0.029286,-0.009221,0.012758,-0.016971,0.004955,-0.003674,-0.007039,-0.002501,0.004866,0.010263,-0.006902,-0.020244,0.004431
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6539,0.124067,0.149283,0.05732 2,-0.003553,0.070167,-0.001394,-0.01081,0.003692,0.030679,0.041914,0.00341,0.00524 5,-0.023637,-0.026286,0.002307,0.009414,0.024121,-0.004941,0.00264,-0.006503,0.002496,0.00371,-0.001849,-0.016147,0.003233
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6584,0.124067,0.175687,0.06033 9,-0.02584,0.080015,-0.029284,-0.00329,0.001846,0.074856,0.087656,-0.004222,0.013488,-0.020069,-0.01101,-0.002986,-0.008884,0.009257,-0.000507,0.016718,0.017383,0.005241,0.00371,-0.015036,-0.026992,-0.006347
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6587,0.118376,0.165531,0.05807 7,-0.036499,0.089555,-0.030957,-0.01081,-0.001615,0.060539,0.094763,0.000487,0.004796,-0.036125,-0.020231,-0.003664,-0.002519,0.010431,-0.002154,-0.015335,-0.006253,0.024332,-0.009274,-0.014173,-0.030607,-0.008263
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6588,0.134311,0.15436,0.061094 ,0.007429,0.053856,0.014502,0.00658,0.01823,0.0182 03,0.045741,-0.009906,0.016036,-0.025867,-0.026424,0.011265,0.012596,0.000522,0.006081,-0.002388,0.017508,0.006613,-0.015457,-0.001849,-0.003133,0.007305
Bell_Beaker_Iberia:I6623,0.133173,0.146236,0.06147 1,0.036822,0.042162,0.011435,0.00987,0.002077,0.02 1475,0.032256,-0.015427,0.014087,-0.020812,-0.020781,0.009636,-0.006762,-0.016168,0.007221,0.004902,0.005628,0.010482,0.010 51,-0.004683,-0.011929,0
Bell_Beaker_ITA:I1979,0.130897,0.157407,0.021496,-0.030685,0.044316,-0.020359,0.00423,-0.003,0.016771,0.044101,0.010718,0.01139,-0.024083,-0.006881,-0.007193,0.019756,0.022948,-0.001267,0.002011,-0.009505,-0.000499,0.008408,-0.0053,-0.008314,0.001317
Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2478,0.126344,0.14319,0.044877,0. 002584,0.045239,0.013108,0,0.000462,0.022498,0.036 083,0.000325,0.013788,-0.017988,-0.007569,0.00475,-0.009016,-0.019949,0.012542,0.009553,-0.007754,0.006988,0.007543,-0.012202,-0.003374,0.005029
DEU_Lech_BBC:UNTA58_68Sk1,0.125205,0.145221,0.0328 09,0.008075,0.035699,-0.009203,-0.00188,0.002538,0.004295,0.028793,-0.003735,0.009142,-0.024678,-0.007844,-0.002172,-0.00305,0.006258,0.006461,0.006662,-0.005878,-0.00025,-0.004822,-0.01972,0.003133,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_BBC:WEHR_1192SkA,0.129758,0.13405,0.06788 2,0.065892,0.033237,0.019243,0.00047,-0.002538,0.008999,0.005467,0.000162,0.01109,-0.010406,-0.008945,0.022801,0.010209,-0.004433,0.009122,0.003645,0.000875,0.006364,0.011 994,0.000739,0.008796,-0.000479
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.124067,0.140143,0.056191,0.0 41021,0.042162,0.016455,-0.003055,0.002077,0.014112,0.018406,0.002273,0.006 744,-0.020218,-0.000413,0.011672,0.001591,-0.008996,-0.006334,0.013073,0.012631,0.006988,0.00371,0.0014 79,-0.005422,-0.00467
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.132035,0.135065,0.046386,0. 034238,0.036314,0.003626,0.002585,0.005769,0.00531 8,0.010023,0.001299,0.011839,-0.016947,-0.015001,0.017236,0.015115,0.021513,0.005828,0.003 268,0.003252,0.006239,-0.002102,0.001109,-0.002651,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0. 008721,0.04924,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50,0.120652,0.153345,0.043746,-0.002584,0.052933,-0.003347,-0.00329,-0.002077,0.022293,0.031162,-0.005846,0.008692,-0.022299,-0.010459,-0.002172,0.014585,0.021253,0.004307,0.001257,-0.005753,0.00262,0.000124,0.002835,-0.005181,-0.010418
DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6,0.12862,0.128972,0.065996,0.05 3941,0.03416,0.018128,0.00094,-0.002769,0.002863,0.001822,-0.006333,0.011989,-0.003865,-0.015001,0.015065,0.00305,-0.004303,-0.001394,0.002891,0.002751,0.007487,-0.003339,-0.004067,0.001446,-0.006107
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.127482,0.14319,0.055437 ,0.032946,0.035391,0.009203,0.014806,-0.001154,-0.001841,0.010934,0.007957,0.008692,-0.018583,-0.018854,0.0076,0.016176,0.011865,-0.00266,0.004525,0.003877,-0.003244,-0.00371,-0.003821,0.019039,-0.004071
DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415adult_d,0.124067,0.119832,0. 062225,0.066538,0.017849,0.02259,-0.001645,0.000231,-0.019021,-0.012574,-0.00341,0.007044,-0.00773,-0.019955,0.026601,0.020419,0.01682,0.001394,-0.004902,0.01063,0.012353,-0.002349,0.005176,0.003253,-0.016046
DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child,0.135449,0.127957,0.04 978,0.051034,0.029852,0.019243,0.005875,0,-0.000205,0.002734,-0.006171,0.012589,-0.013082,-0.020231,0.020494,0.006895,-0.004694,0.001774,0.005154,0.00963,0.002995,0.0045 75,-0.001849,-0.006386,-0.005149
ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA:RMPR851,0.133173,0.156392,0.04 4123,-0.010336,0.046778,-0.004741,0.008225,0.004154,0.023725,0.044283,-0.004222,0.01109,-0.02215,-0.011147,-0.006243,-0.006099,0.002738,-0.000127,0.004902,-0.004252,-0.009109,0.004328,-0.003081,-0.009519,-0.002874
ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA:RMPR1021,0.126344,0.153345,0 .035072,-0.014858,0.052317,-0.013387,-0.00094,0.003461,0.020452,0.04155,0.004222,0.01004 1,-0.013528,-0.008808,0.007465,-0.015646,-0.011995,-0.003041,0.004902,-0.012631,0.007861,0.006306,-0.007641,-0.001325,0.008023
ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473,0.125205,0.158423,0.035449,-0.019703,0.046162,-0.002789,0,-0.002769,0.026384,0.041368,-0.002923,0.012739,-0.018583,-0.007707,-0.0057,-0.017634,-0.010431,0.004054,0.010056,-0.002126,-0.004742,-0.00136,-0.003328,0.002289,-0.003473
ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b,0.122929,0.151314,0.036581,-0.009044,0.036314,-0.00251,0.00235,-0.003461,0.013908,0.027882,-0.003573,0.01154,-0.013677,-0.004129,-0.003664,0.00411,0.004824,0.010135,0.013073,-0.002626,-0.004742,0.005317,-0.000493,-0.003133,-0.002634
ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b,0.125205,0.147252 ,0.045254,0.005814,0.044931,0.005578,-0.00094,0.003461,0.023725,0.039363,-0.004547,0.008992,-0.021407,-0.014726,0.012893,-0.001989,-0.001043,0.006208,0.003017,-0.003252,0.004742,0.002844,-0.006286,-0.000241,-0.002036
ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1,0.121791,0.144205,0.030547,-0.011951,0.024004,-0.008925,0.002585,-0.002538,0.004909,0.021868,0.005521,0.005695,-0.013825,-0.001239,-0.005429,-0.013524,-0.01017,0.003674,0.004777,-0.011631,-0.007237,0.000371,-0.002958,0.005422,-0.006227
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.148267,0.03 4695,-0.017442,0.043085,-0.005578,-0.002115,-0.003231,0.024952,0.051391,-0.001461,0.013488,-0.034043,-0.010184,-0.008415,0.011535,0.018515,-0.003674,0.005405,0.004377,0.003244,-0.001731,0.002588,-0.006266,-0.007544
ITA_Villanovan:RMPR1015,0.12862,0.155376,0.04186,-0.022933,0.054164,-0.007251,-0.00188,-0.002077,0.023929,0.039545,0.00747,0.004946,-0.016501,-0.018854,-0.006107,0.011005,0.025686,0.003421,0.002263,0.004 877,0.005366,0.003957,-0.008381,-0.007591,-0.002874
CZE_Hallstatt_BylanyA111,0.124067,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0. 005857,0.001175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
CZE_Hallstatt_BylanyA112,0.133173,0.123895,0.077687,0.042313,0.052625, 0.002231,0.00282,0.000462,0.016157,0.01549,-0.011692,-0.010641,-0.00223,0.004404,0.004479,0.006895,0.006258,-0.000253,0.003771,0.014507,-0.007736,-0.002102,0.003204,-0.00494,-0.001676

[TardisBlue]

mark ruffalo is part french.

Only 1/4th: "His father is of Italian descent, from Girifalco and his mother is of half French Canadian and half Italian ancestry."

[lynxbythetv]

That'd be wrong, unless you refer to the Welsh, who apparently have quite little post-Antiquity gene flow. The English and the Scottish have lots of later admixture from North German/Scandinavian lands, as much as ~40-50% in some areas. So, genetically they're not the same as their partial Iron Age ancestors.

how large are these areas and how much does this 50% represent overall ?

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

[bicicleur]

Go there : https://vahaduo.github.io/custompca/

Paste the data below in "data". Then flip both PC1 and PC2 to have the north in the right place.
Then look what happens. Iron Age Italics, Etruscans, Proto-Villanovan plot between Halstatt DA111 and the Lech Valley BB samples, among a crowd of Bavarian BB samples just above, and Iberian BBs just below. In other words, right where today's French and Swiss samples get packed together.

Looks like they did come from north of the Alps, and were by the Iron Age in the process of admixing with Remedello-like pops. What happened later is a different story. And I can't think what nordicism might have to do with that.

you're probably right
there seems to be 1 oultier though : ITA Villanovan in the direction of Bell Beaker ITA
which is this Bell Beaker ITA?
is it possible to incorporate the Remedello individuals?

[hrvclv]

you're probably right
there seems to be 1 oultier though : ITA Villanovan in the direction of Bell Beaker ITA
which is this Bell Beaker ITA?
is it possible to incorporate the Remedello individuals?

ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486,0.113823,0.169593,0.02790 7,-0.047804,0.080323,-0.025379,-0.013631,0.001385,0.059925,0.071801,0.00406,0.0137 88,-0.012933,-0.003991,-0.016422,-0.017767,-0.002999,0.012035,0.000754,-0.006503,0.001996,-0.003339,-0.02354,-0.027835,-0.007664
ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487,0.124067,0.162485,0.04110 6,-0.045866,0.075706,-0.025658,-0.0094,0.011769,0.05154,0.096403,-0.010068,0.01079,-0.031367,-0.016652,-0.017779,-0.000663,0.013038,0.00266,0.017095,-0.018384,0.009733,0.008779,-0.019596,-0.018436,-0.004431
ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489,0.121791,0.173656,0.04110 6,-0.062662,0.07663,-0.028726,-0.00564,0.004384,0.059925,0.079637,-0.006171,0.017534,-0.030773,-0.013212,-0.021172,-0.008353,0.00691,0.004561,0.015712,-0.006003,-0.003743,-0.003462,-0.012941,-0.026992,-0.007903

[hrvclv]

which is this Bell Beaker ITA?

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I2478 / M
Find location: Via Guidorossi, Parma, Emilia Romagna
Associated label in publication: Beaker Northern Italy
Date: 2194–1939 calBCE (3671±40 BP, LTL-5035A)
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a2a
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018

[Angela]

First, the Romans of the Republic, the founders of Empire, were supposed to be Scandinavian like or German like, and the Etruscans were Anatolians. I heard it here dozens of times. Now they were all Swiss or French. :)

Has anyone ever denied that steppe related ancestry entered Italy from over the Alps??? Given the linguistic analyses of Italic and Celtic, has anyone ever denied that there might have been an Italo-Celtic speaking group in Central Europe which diverged into two streams? Haven't we known that for a very, very, long time?

What we also know is that by the time they were more than a bunch of shepards shivering from malaria on their hills, they had absorbed local Chalcolithic ancestry, and a bit perhaps from further south. R437 and R850 had absorbed quite a lot.

Oh, and only one of the samples might be plotting in southern France. Just saying. :)

[Angela]

I was going to do an analysis of my own dna to highlight the Bavarian BB and Remedello Bronze connection even in a half Emilian/half Tuscan, but Duarte has closed access to his google doc. I think he may be offended that we utilized the vahaduo K12b updated, with Italian regional samples which may have been put together by a known Italian racist. Or else he got offended because I said that dna shows one can indeed divide people, more or less, into large "breeding populations", and that believing this doesn't, ipso facto make one a "racist".

It's a pity, because he's an excellent poster.

And you think I see racism everywhere, hrvclv? :)

I'll see if I can reconstruct the list from posts.

[bicicleur]

Sample ID / genetic sex (M/F): I2478 / M
Find location: Via Guidorossi, Parma, Emilia Romagna
Associated label in publication: Beaker Northern Italy
Date: 2194–1939 calBCE (3671±40 BP, LTL-5035A)
MtDNA haplogroup (mother): K1a2a
Y-DNA haplogroup (father): R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312)
Reference: Olalde et al. 2018

you seem to have a well organised database
how did you collect and build it?

[hrvclv]

Does it really matter who made a tool, as long as it proves useful ?

[Angela]

I was going to do an analysis of my own dna to highlight the Bavarian BB and Remedello Bronze connection even in a half Emilian/half Tuscan, but Duarte has closed access to his google doc. I think he may be offended that we utilized the vahaduo K12b updated, with Italian regional samples which may have been put together by a known Italian racist. Or else he got offended because I said that dna shows one can indeed divide people, more or less, into large "breeding populations", and that believing this doesn't, ipso facto make one a "racist".

It's a pity, because he's an excellent poster.

And you think I see racism everywhere, hrvclv? :)

I'll see if I can reconstruct the list from posts.

6.06036303

I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge

6.86379633

I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN

6.99657773	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.16551464	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
7.41494437	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge

8.75370207	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.85352472	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge

9.34367166

I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge

9.64873049

I4332_Balkans_BronzeAge

10.77930888

I0706_Balkans_Neolithic

12.22507260

Bavaria_BB_II5524

Iron Age:
The first sample is one which has a bit of "Armenian", i.e. Caucasus in it. It's also the only "upper class" sample we have.

9.10498215

R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima

9.61917356

R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

9.80181106

R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro

10.76144972

R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia

10.89582948	R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
10.91793937	R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia

Iron Age Scythians: this is the group of assimilated "Scythians" from Moldova who are autosomally "Southern European", specifically "Tuscan like".

8.12881295

ScythianSouthernMoldova_scy197

9.05183407

ScythianSouthernMoldova_scy192

9.31019871

ScythianMoldova_SCY300

The trajectory for my ancestry has seemed to me to point to an entrance into Italy from the southern edge of the eastern Alps. It's possible, of course, that we just don't have enough samples from more "western" entry points.

We have a member from the Romagna who gets similar results, although closer to R1, and Torzio is closer to some of the Etruscan samples.

Or, people like the Piemontese or western Lombards would show slightly different affinities. Unfortunately, none have posted.

[Ygorcs]

First, the Romans of the Republic, the founders of Empire, were supposed to be Scandinavian like or German like, and the Etruscans were Anatolians. I heard it here dozens of times. Now they were all Swiss or French. :)

Has anyone ever denied that steppe related ancestry entered Italy from over the Alps??? Given the linguistic analyses of Italic and Celtic, has anyone ever denied that there might have been an Italo-Celtic speaking group in Central Europe which diverged into two streams? Haven't we known that for a very, very, long time?

What we also know is that by the time they were more than a bunch of shepards shivering from malaria on their hills, they had absorbed local Chalcolithic ancestry, and a bit perhaps from further south. R437 and R850 had absorbed quite a lot.

Oh, and only one of the samples might be plotting in southern France. Just saying. :)

I think what people are arguing here is simply that Proto-Italics were more probably French-like or even British-like than like some other steppe-admixed population more to the east of Switzerland/South Germany. Of course by the time Iron Age Latins, Oscans etc. existed they were not Proto-Italic anymore, but predominantly local Italians in ancestry.

[bicicleur]

ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486,0.113823,0.169593,0.02790 7,-0.047804,0.080323,-0.025379,-0.013631,0.001385,0.059925,0.071801,0.00406,0.0137 88,-0.012933,-0.003991,-0.016422,-0.017767,-0.002999,0.012035,0.000754,-0.006503,0.001996,-0.003339,-0.02354,-0.027835,-0.007664
ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487,0.124067,0.162485,0.04110 6,-0.045866,0.075706,-0.025658,-0.0094,0.011769,0.05154,0.096403,-0.010068,0.01079,-0.031367,-0.016652,-0.017779,-0.000663,0.013038,0.00266,0.017095,-0.018384,0.009733,0.008779,-0.019596,-0.018436,-0.004431
ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489,0.121791,0.173656,0.04110 6,-0.062662,0.07663,-0.028726,-0.00564,0.004384,0.059925,0.079637,-0.006171,0.017534,-0.030773,-0.013212,-0.021172,-0.008353,0.00691,0.004561,0.015712,-0.006003,-0.003743,-0.003462,-0.012941,-0.026992,-0.007903

they are outliers on the plot
maybe Iberia BB without the steppe ancestry, so Iberian chalcolithic ?