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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    6.06036303 I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
    6.86379633 I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
    6.99657773 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.16551464 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    7.41494437 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.75370207 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.85352472 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.34367166 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.64873049 I4332_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.77930888 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    12.22507260 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    Iron Age:
    The first sample is one which has a bit of "Armenian", i.e. Caucasus in it. It's also the only "upper class" sample we have.
    9.10498215 R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    9.61917356 R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    9.80181106 R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
    10.76144972 R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    10.89582948 R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
    10.91793937 R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    Iron Age Scythians: this is the group of assimilated "Scythians" from Moldova who are autosomally "Southern European", specifically "Tuscan like".
    8.12881295 ScythianSouthernMoldova_scy197
    9.05183407 ScythianSouthernMoldova_scy192
    9.31019871 ScythianMoldova_SCY300
    The trajectory for my ancestry has seemed to me to point to an entrance into Italy from the southern edge of the eastern Alps. It's possible, of course, that we just don't have enough samples from more "western" entry points.
    We have a member from the Romagna who gets similar results, although closer to R1, and Torzio is closer to some of the Etruscan samples.
    Or, people like the Piemontese or western Lombards would show slightly different affinities. Unfortunately, none have posted.
    Iron Age Croatians plot in modern day northern Italy, if I remember correctly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    they are outliers on the plot
    maybe Iberia BB without the steppe ancestry, so Iberian chalcolithic ?
    Yes, that's how I see it too. They are pre-steppe West-Med people, with fairly high levels of WHG.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I think what people are arguing here is simply that Proto-Italics were more probably French-like or even British-like than like some other steppe-admixed population more to the east of Switzerland/South Germany. Of course by the time Iron Age Latins, Oscans etc. existed they were not Proto-Italic anymore, but predominantly local Italians in ancestry.
    steppe ancestry probably entered Europe probably 5 - 4,5 ka via the Carpathian Basin
    from then on it got diluted more and more with European meso/neo/chalcolithic DNA
    IMO the Italic people had it in already diluted form before entering Italy where they admixed further with pré-Italic Italian DNA
    so, Indeed these Italic people prior to entering Italy could very well have been Halstatt-like

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    from data on post# 761

    my plot with these ancients



    I am near the top

    Very top one is Proto-villanovan , I sit under that

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I think what people are arguing here is simply that Proto-Italics were more probably French-like or even British-like than like some other steppe-admixed population more to the east of Switzerland/South Germany. Of course by the time Iron Age Latins, Oscans etc. existed they were not Proto-Italic anymore, but predominantly local Italians in ancestry.
    That's the way I see it too. Proto-Italics, before intermingling with the indigenous people if Italy, were very probably the same Urnfield/Hallstatt people that expanded all over Western Europe. The Y-DNA tells the same story. Both groups were R1b-U152. If we exclude the Remedello and Kura-Araxes components from Iron Age Latins, Etrsucans and Villanovans, we get something close to German Bell Beaker and North Alpine Late Bronze Age.
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    We have quite a few Bronze Age samples from those areas, and from Spain. I don't remember anyone getting good matches with them, although I just may have missed a post here and there.

    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_43,5.01,0.00,0.13, 0.00,45.31,32.18,0.00,0.00,3.09,1.44,12.35,0.48
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40 ,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0. 00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30 ,0.19
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00 ,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54 ,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
    NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00 ,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
    NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,4 0.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99

    BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,5 4.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95

    BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21 .76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
    IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52 .24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
    IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48 ,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
    BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47 ,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
    IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00, 61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49


    @hrvclv,

    You're asking the wrong person. I didn't quit the Board because we use "racist" data. After investigating this person a little more, however, if you're asking me if I am cautious about using his samples, the answer is yes. I certainly wouldn't put it past him to choose samples which he "likes". I prefer to use academic samples for that reason.

    Anyway, as to your question about where the Balkan Bronze Age people plot, they do indeed plot in Northern Italy.

    My closest match in that area.
    Distance to: I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
    3.56275646 Italy_Lombardy
    4.78770749 Italy_Emilia
    4.93995082 Italy_Liguria
    5.14574766 Italy_Veneto
    5.39127537 Italy_Piedmont
    6.07536254 Italy_Tuscany
    6.54086099 Swiss_Italian
    7.53474883 Italy_Trentino
    8.14842046 France_Corsica
    8.45013349 Italy_FriuliVG
    8.57974941 Italy_Romagna
    9.78872702 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    11.74627933 Italy_Marche
    12.03777155 Italy_Lazio
    12.29336406 Albanian_North
    12.42080915 Albanian_Kosovo
    14.46197428 Baleares
    15.62894430 Macedonian
    16.46757724 Galicia
    17.02095179 Gagauz
    17.19215810 Extremadura
    17.51714611 Italy_Abruzzo
    18.13725448 Portuguese
    18.47098536 Pomak
    18.50866554 Murcia

    Distance to: I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
    2.05818124 Italy_Tuscany
    2.08280268 Italy_Emilia
    3.31002147 Italy_Liguria
    3.97854245 Italy_Romagna
    5.39777455 Italy_Piedmont
    5.50472684 Italy_Lombardy
    5.66402703 Italy_Veneto
    6.91328981 France_Corsica
    7.23471478 Italy_Marche
    7.24753020 Italy_Lazio
    7.82929729 Italy_FriuliVG
    9.04881553 Swiss_Italian
    9.38126857 Albanian_Kosovo
    9.49702164 Italy_Trentino
    9.92970795 Albanian_North
    12.16136360 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    13.05936781 Italy_Abruzzo
    14.06452985 Macedonian
    14.32569370 Gagauz
    14.88985722 Italy_Apulia
    15.82283559 Italy_Campania
    16.01395641 Greek
    16.34666893 Italy_Sicily
    16.44254238 Pomak
    17.39657438 Baleares


    Distance to: BronzeAgeNorthernSpain_I2472
    6.93994957 Cantabria
    7.60840982 Valencia
    7.89670184 Aragon
    8.13528733 Spaniards
    8.92260612 Cataluna
    8.98898771 Spanish
    9.40866090 Castilla_Y_Leon
    9.54614582 Castilla_La_Mancha
    10.57576948 Baleares
    11.28035017 Galicia
    11.51678341 Andalucia
    11.81892127 Murcia
    12.12418657 Extremadura
    12.99507599 Portuguese
    16.59701479 Canarias
    18.28149611 French
    18.37217733 Pais_Vasco
    18.62023621 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    18.98989731 French
    20.41847846 Swiss_Italian
    21.54235178 Italy_Trentino
    21.79206914 Italy_Lombardy
    22.89247366 Italy_Piedmont
    23.89897278 French_Basque
    23.97438409 Italy_Veneto

    Distance to: BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874
    6.82477106 French
    7.14394849 French
    7.86105591 Mixed_Germanic
    9.09198548 Dutch
    9.62276987 Kent
    10.16121056 CEU30
    10.28466820 English
    10.68832073 German
    11.24242856 British_Isles
    11.53092364 Cornwall
    12.09670203 British
    12.60727134 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    13.53023281 Irish
    13.63107479 Argyll
    13.82049927 Orcadian
    13.96088106 Orkney
    15.01126044 Italy_Trentino
    15.84988643 Croat
    16.18187914 Swiss_Italian
    16.35549449 Hungarians
    17.23638303 Bosnian
    17.40403562 Italy_FriuliVG
    18.53435189 Norwegian
    18.75241745 Italy_Veneto
    18.86537145 Italy_Piedmont

    All of the Iron Age samples were done on the Vahaduo thread, but for those who haven't seen them, this is a taste of it. These are both members of Latin tribes in the Iron Age.

    Distance to: R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
    8.35141305 Baleares
    11.06513726 Swiss_Italian
    11.22772016 Galicia
    11.36204724 Italy_Lombardy
    11.58294024 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    11.69795281 Spaniards
    12.50926457 Extremadura
    12.55556052 Castilla_Y_Leon
    12.58474155 Italy_Trentino
    12.62493168 Andalucia
    12.85807528 Murcia
    12.91240102 Cataluna
    13.25537439 Italy_Piedmont
    13.51998891 Cantabria
    13.52852172 Valencia
    13.65238807 Spanish
    13.82352452 Italy_Liguria
    13.82596109 Portuguese
    13.90869071 Italy_Veneto
    14.40460104 Italy_Emilia
    14.50117581 Castilla_La_Mancha
    14.70424769 Aragon
    15.02386488 France_Corsica
    15.80394096 Italy_Tuscany
    16.38091682 Italy_FriuliVG

    No one is really close to him, but as I have said repeatedly, he and other samples are somewhere in a no man's land between some Spaniards and northern Italians. Swiss Italians, for example are extremely like Lombards.

    Distance to: R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
    3.90799181 Greek_Crete
    7.13377179 Ashkenazy_Jews
    7.63860109 Italy_Calabria
    7.74058137 Sephardic_Jews
    7.82175172 Ashkenazi
    10.04684154 Italy_Sicily
    10.57089239 Italy_Campania
    10.88449356 Greek_Cappadocia
    11.39101962 Italy_Apulia
    11.86263040 Cypriots
    12.08694751 Nusayri_Turkey
    12.19292418 Morocco_Jews
    12.92056940 Italy_Abruzzo
    13.12759689 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    13.17106678 Turk_West_BlackSea
    13.49063008 Turk_Central_West
    14.16544387 Greek
    14.43175665 Turk_Central_East
    14.45064012 Turk_Anatolia
    15.19421600 Turk_Southwest
    15.21064759 Lebanese
    15.74333510 Turk_Northwest
    15.93597503 Turk_South
    15.96534685 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
    16.59878610 Turk_Southeast

    Our only "upper class" burial:

    To reiterate, I find that "Corsican" sample highly suspect, but, whatever...
    Distance to: R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    8.24389471 Baleares
    9.75583505 Italy_Lombardy
    10.70371038 France_Corsica
    11.20965620 Italy_Liguria
    11.32371847 Andalucia
    11.42504540 Swiss_Italian
    11.42629424 Galicia
    11.51494216 Italy_Emilia
    11.79780955 Italy_Piedmont
    11.95574339 Murcia
    12.07648128 Extremadura
    12.59229129 Spaniards
    12.60429252 Italy_Tuscany
    12.64712420 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    12.89660874 Italy_Veneto
    12.99406788 Castilla_Y_Leon
    13.07247260 Italy_Trentino
    13.45805707 Portuguese
    14.26729827 Cataluna
    14.36500609 Spanish
    14.53080865 Valencia
    14.78261817 Castilla_La_Mancha
    14.93880183 Canarias
    14.97183356 Cantabria
    15.34615261 Italy_Romagna

    It remains to be seen, imo, whether that more "western" Beaker input we see in some of the Parma Beakers samples lasted in Italy or indeed how far it extended, given that one of the samples had almost no "Beaker", as indeed the Sicily "Beaker" samples had not "Beaker" genetic influence.

    Let's hope the upcoming Reich paper has more Bronze Age northern and southern Italian samples.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As others have tried to point out, the modern British are not "Celts". Not even the Irish and Scottish, and perhaps not even the Welsh, are "Celts". You know that, surely.

    Take a look at my post number 771. I address the issue tangentially.

    As I said, Piemontese or western Lombards might skew differently. I don't know, but I don't see that pull in the results of the Italian posters on our Board.
    Oops, sorry, I meant Bronze Age/Early Iron Age British and French, not modern ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Oops, sorry, I meant Bronze Age/Early Iron Age British and French, not modern ones.
    Don't see them either, in either modern or ancient samples.

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    Ygorcs:

    Don't the Welsh among the peoples of the UK have more Neolithic Early European Farmer DNA vs. the Scottish, Irish and English. The Scottish and English having more Celtic Steppe, less Neolithic and the English having Germanic Anglo-Saxon from even further North in Central Europe. So among NW Europeans, the Welsh have often been seen to resemble peoples in South West France and maybe some association with the Basque in Spain. So those women could definitely move to Italy and fit right in pretty much in any region, at least in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    steppe ancestry probably entered Europe probably 5 - 4,5 ka via the Carpathian Basin
    from then on it got diluted more and more with European meso/neo/chalcolithic DNA
    IMO the Italic people had it in already diluted form before entering Italy where they admixed further with pré-Italic Italian DNA
    so, Indeed these Italic people prior to entering Italy could very well have been Halstatt-like
    Your statement is not inconsistent with my hypothesis. The Steppe which brought in Indo-European language and the movement of peoples associated with it covered a large area of land from North to South. I don't have the site in front of me but I think Lazaridis in one of his papers notes the Steppe was 57% EHG and 43% CHG. I wonder if that ratio varied North to South, i.e. the further South you go, the more CHG relative to EHG whereas North it is just the opposite, More EHG vs. CHG. In addition, the Pre-Italics/Latins route being further South would have taken them in areas that may have already had more EEF than areas further North which might have had more residual WHG. So what is the exact route the Proto-Italics took and what lands they crossed would perhaps suggest what peoples they married and intermixed with.

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    Well like Salento, I don't seem to clustering with the English Romans that played in the 1970's BBC PBS show I Claudius, which was and still is one heck of a Show. Just to remind folks, American of Sicilian Italian Ancestry (Totalmente) from insular inland towns in the regions of Trapani, Palermo and Agrigento.

    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 28-01-20 at 21:21. Reason: typo

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    Forgot to provide the original dodecad source results...

    I get a reasonably good fit to this sample...

    Distance to: R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    5.15760603 North_Italian
    7.87889586 N_Italian
    8.24389471 Baleares
    11.32371847 Andalucia
    11.42629424 Galicia
    11.95574339 Murcia
    12.07648128 Extremadura
    12.25715301 TSI30
    12.59229129 Spaniards
    12.99406788 Castilla_Y_Leon
    13.45805707 Portuguese
    14.10107088 Tuscan
    14.26729827 Cataluna
    14.36500609 Spanish
    14.53080865 Valencia
    14.78261817 Castilla_La_Mancha
    14.93880183 Canarias
    14.97183356 Cantabria
    15.63196725 Aragon
    16.57335814 O_Italian
    17.87135417 C_Italian
    21.26400715 French
    21.89108266 French
    26.17368526 Greek
    26.26928054 Sicilian

    Target: R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    Distance: 2.4369% / 2.43685038 | ADC: 0.25x

    76.8North_Italian
    9.4Valencia
    7.4Andalucia
    5.4Sardinian
    0.8Pulliyar
    0.2Nganassan

    And this one, an Etruscan one...
    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    5.24512154 North_Italian
    8.03976368 N_Italian
    8.21257572 Baleares
    10.85773457 Galicia
    11.64063572 Murcia
    12.06155048 Extremadura
    12.15138675 Andalucia
    12.49035628 TSI30
    12.74874111 Castilla_Y_Leon
    12.84337962 Spaniards
    13.02558636 Portuguese
    14.29485922 Spanish
    14.48704249 Cataluna
    14.48716673 Tuscan
    14.59809577 Canarias
    15.02812031 Castilla_La_Mancha
    15.03589040 Valencia
    15.10769340 Cantabria
    15.97660790 Aragon
    16.59626464 O_Italian
    17.91761982 C_Italian
    20.96794697 French
    21.55915815 French
    25.93064596 Greek
    26.20529908 Sicilian

    As I said, we've posted results for all of them.

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    Angela: You are correct, all of us descendants of Italian immigrants from various regions have been posting our results. These 2 as you note cluster close to modern Northern Italians and looking down the list, I don't see Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Germans, or English showing up. Heck, even us poor old Sicilian-Italians are doing better on your list than those other modern populations. Who'd thunk it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Your statement is not inconsistent with my hypothesis. The Steppe which brought in Indo-European language and the movement of peoples associated with it covered a large area of land from North to South. I don't have the site in front of me but I think Lazaridis in one of his papers notes the Steppe was 57% EHG and 43% CHG. I wonder if that ratio varied North to South, i.e. the further South you go, the more CHG relative to EHG whereas North it is just the opposite, More EHG vs. CHG. In addition, the Pre-Italics/Latins route being further South would have taken them in areas that may have already had more EEF than areas further North which might have had more residual WHG. So what is the exact route the Proto-Italics took and what lands they crossed would perhaps suggest what peoples they married and intermixed with.
    there is a large variation in BellBeaker DNA
    they all have steppe DNA admixed with European neolithic/chalcolithic, but all in different proportions
    if I remember well, Iberian continental Bell Beaker (with R1b Y-DNA) had more than British, who were allready 50 % admixed

    I think the pure CHG is what Maciamo refers to as 'Kura-Araxes like' :

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for your analysis, Ygorcs. Very interesting.

    I also noticed that Iron-age Latins appear to be closest to Southeast French and North Italians.

    I agree that the original Italic tribes would have been very Celtic-like as they share common roots in the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures. The Urnfield culture spread to northern Italy, but also Southeast France and Catalonia, which may be why, with the shared ancestry, many Iron Age Latin samples score high similarities with southern France and Catalonia in addition to northern Italy.

    Hallstatt and La Tène Celts from around the Alps later spread to Belgium, France, Iberia and Britain, so it isn't surprising to find similarities between Bronze/Iron Age Iberia, Gaul and Britain and Iron Age central and northern Italy (including Etruscans).

    Like Angela said, the people living in Italy prior to the Italic invasions probably possessed some Near Eastern Kura-Araxes-like (Bronze Age Armenia/Anatolia/Levant) admixture. So when Villanovans and Italics mixed with them that gave us the hybrid individuals we witness in Iron Age Latium.

    I would think that Iron Age South Italians would be a blend of that Kura-Araxes-like people with genetically similar Greek colonists. That's why imperial, medieval and modern South Italians are so close to the Greeks. The original South Italians were already quite Greek-like.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    where would that Kura-Araxes have come from?
    from Myceneans and Greeks maybe?

    there is a paper about the western Medittaranean (Sardinia, Baleares, Iberia), and if I recall well it shows only late (phoenician/greek) arrival of this type of admixture

    on the other hand, that type of admixture may already have arrived in the Aegean and in Troy during early Heladic (Cycladic culture) and slightly prior to the foundation of Troy, ca 5 ka
    by the time of Myceneans the incoming Kura-Araxes was already heavily admixed with Aegean or Anatolian EEF and had also recieved a tad of steppe

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Sicilians get quite good results with R437, as do Southern Italians, and this is an Iron Age sample let's not forget. Indeed, their fits are much better than what I get.

    Distance to: R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
    4.59913035 S_Italian_Sicilian
    4.83577295 Sicilian
    6.62618291 C_Italian
    10.16248001 Ashkenazi
    10.49031935 Tuscan
    10.64005169 Ashkenazy_Jews
    11.26179382 Greek
    11.40172794 Sephardic_Jews
    11.72748055 TSI30
    11.99572424 O_Italian
    12.92229856 Morocco_Jews
    19.05535620 N_Italian
    19.48090090 North_Italian
    22.31406731 Cypriots
    25.38137112 Turkish
    25.88563308 Bulgarian
    25.93160234 Bulgarians
    27.15757721 Romanians
    27.42830655 Lebanese
    28.16090197 Turks
    28.45628226 Baleares
    29.54386569 Canarias
    29.68206361 Syrians
    30.21483080 Murcia
    30.27705732 Galicia

    A bit of Moroccan Jew shows up, but nowhere near the affinity of the Bronze Age Sicilian Beaker with them.
    Target: R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
    Distance: 2.1728% / 2.17279692 | ADC: 0.5x
    76.8 S_Italian_Sicilian
    18.4 C_Italian
    3.4 Andalucia
    1.4 Sardinian


    Target: R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
    Distance: 1.2030% / 1.20299496 | ADC: 0.25x
    76.6 S_Italian_Sicilian
    12.8 C_Italian
    4.8 Andalucia
    3.4 Sardinian
    1.6 Morocco_Jews
    0.8 Brahui

    Bronze Age Beaker from Sicily...
    Distance to: I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
    17.75790528 Morocco_Jews
    18.18684415 Sicilian
    18.68690451 Sephardic_Jews
    19.18726140 S_Italian_Sicilian
    21.20363412 C_Italian
    21.34804441 Ashkenazi
    22.10654428 Ashkenazy_Jews
    23.35725583 Tuscan
    24.08437253 TSI30
    26.09522945 Greek
    27.25755308 O_Italian
    27.37371002 Cypriots
    28.92887312 North_Italian
    30.30025412 N_Italian
    33.40130237 Canarias
    34.58367245 Andalucia
    35.04589848 Baleares
    35.06321149 Sardinian
    35.24731195 Murcia
    35.29380966 Lebanese
    35.44868122 Turkish
    35.86672413 Druze
    36.96170992 Extremadura
    37.15035128 Galicia
    37.28312085 Portuguese



    Target: I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
    Distance: 6.5012% / 6.50120497 | ADC: 0.25x
    49.8 Cypriots
    40.6 Sardinian
    5.2 Mozabite
    4.4 Morocco_Jews


    There's a huge hole in the Antonio et al paper because they didn't address this issue of additional ancestry from the Near East showing up in Italy in the Bronze Age, and their "hypothesis" or "theory" of the changes in Italian genetics over time suffers from it. We're not seeing the whole picture yet, imo.
    Target: I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
    Distance: 6.5012% / 6.50120497 | ADC: 0.25x
    49.8 Cypriots
    40.6 Sardinian
    5.2 Mozabite
    4.4 Morocco_Jews

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Don't see them either, in either modern or ancient samples.
    So who do you understand the Proto-Italic portion of the Italic genetic structure was closest to? I also get LN/EBA Germany affinities, but generally also including a more "western" (Iberia, France) EEF, so I don't see the possibility of a source population much to the east of Western European BB types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Ygorcs:

    Don't the Welsh among the peoples of the UK have more Neolithic Early European Farmer DNA vs. the Scottish, Irish and English. The Scottish and English having more Celtic Steppe, less Neolithic and the English having Germanic Anglo-Saxon from even further North in Central Europe. So among NW Europeans, the Welsh have often been seen to resemble peoples in South West France and maybe some association with the Basque in Spain. So those women could definitely move to Italy and fit right in pretty much in any region, at least in my opinion.


    Of course these are "bottom line" results. They don't tell us via which population (Britain MN, BB, Gauls, Romans, Saxons, Vikings...) brought which genes.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The Italian results (Modern)


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    So who do you understand the Proto-Italic portion of the Italic genetic structure was closest to? I also get LN/EBA Germany affinities, but generally also including a more "western" (Iberia, France) EEF, so I don't see the possibility of a source population much to the east of Western European BB types.
    I'm not sure of the answer.

    I'm just reporting what I see. I don't see any appreciable affinity of Northern Italians with German BB or French BB. The affinities I see are all with Balkan samples, not German or French. I personally get a lot of matches with Spanish and Portuguese samples, but after the Iron Age, not before.

    Now, such affinities might exist in the Piemontese or the western Lombards. I don't know. None have posted. I know you can see it in some of the Valle Aosta samples, but they're not really Italians from my perspective.

    They did exist in two of the Parma Beakers, but how widespread that influence was and whether it lasted is unknown to me. I get a hit only to one of the samples, the one with very little steppe, from what I remember. We really need more Bronze Age samples from both northern and southern Italy.

    If they do exist in some Northern Italians, then maybe we're talking about two streams into Italy of slightly different steppe admixed peoples.

    If it doesn't, then, I don't know.


    Also, there's of course this...

    My particular area shows affinity to both Irish Bronze Age and Hungarian Bronze Age, but most of Italy has no connection to Irish Bronze Age, not even more northern areas than mine. Before the Parma Beaker samples and the Iron Age Italian samples came out I assumed that the Irish Bronze Age influence was from the Iron Age, i.e. the "Celtic" invasions. That's how the Ligurians became the Celt-Ligurians. Perhaps it was earlier, though, as we can see from Parma Beaker, or it was both. I think it covers the northern Etruscan area as well but not really southern Etruria and Rome.

    I had opined on one post that perhaps it might be a clue that the "Etruscans" took a different route south into Italy than the Latin affiliated tribes, but Pax took great exception to it. :)

    I have to check how many Hungarian samples we have. By some analyses, I'm extremely close to the more "Southern European" Szolad samples. Maybe they weren't relict, isolated "Romans" after all. :)

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    The same, with a Near Eastern source (When applicable, it tends to bring the Anatolian down a bit)


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Distance to: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b

    0.03675835 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44
    0.04002633 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50
    0.04341762 HUN_BA:I7040
    0.04531833 HRV_MBA:I4332
    0.05019973 HUN_BA:I7043
    0.05020603 HRV_MBA:I4331
    0.05162455 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
    0.05496288 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
    0.05755096 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
    0.06022575 HRV_EBA:I3499
    0.06342869 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
    0.06362020 CZE_EBA:I7196
    0.07387832 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
    0.07600874 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6
    0.09528762 CZE_EBA:I7195
    0.09874883 CZE_EBA:I7201
    0.10138338 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.10147843 CZE_EBA:I4892
    0.10212855 CZE_EBA:I7200
    0.10547954 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
    0.10627913 CZE_EBA:I7202
    0.10631677 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
    0.10946105 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.11053948 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415adult_d
    0.11102731 CZE_EBA:I4884

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016

    0.03645436 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50
    0.04296666 HRV_MBA:I4332
    0.04703267 HRV_MBA:I4331
    0.05055921 HUN_BA:I7040
    0.05296068 HUN_BA:I7043
    0.05696050 HRV_EBA:I3499
    0.05715747 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44
    0.07224907 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
    0.08058219 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
    0.08389966 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.08606722 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
    0.08622884 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
    0.08643854 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
    0.08828742 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.09094623 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489
    0.09136644 HUN_BA:I7042
    0.09284722 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
    0.09569667 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.10043120 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.10289433 CZE_EBA:I7196
    0.10649018 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
    0.11085806 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6
    0.12473158 CZE_EBA:I7195
    0.12780555 CZE_EBA:I7200
    0.13264803 CZE_EBA:I4892

    Distance to: ITA_Villanovan:RMPR1015

    0.03529712 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50
    0.04053185 HRV_MBA:I4332
    0.04445669 HUN_BA:I7040
    0.05038741 HRV_MBA:I4331
    0.05115129 HUN_BA:I7043
    0.05909810 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44
    0.06253735 HRV_EBA:I3499
    0.07031813 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
    0.07932345 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
    0.08469561 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
    0.08723023 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.08723503 HUN_BA:I7042
    0.08771433 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
    0.08801768 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
    0.09048659 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
    0.09099420 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489
    0.09702071 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.09806956 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.09866103 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.10329891 CZE_EBA:I7196
    0.10780411 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
    0.11014032 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6
    0.12556804 CZE_EBA:I7195
    0.12777818 CZE_EBA:I7200
    0.13008604 CZE_EBA:I7201

    Distance to: ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1

    0.03663236 HRV_EBA:I3499
    0.03681141 HRV_MBA:I4331
    0.03825269 HUN_BA:I7043
    0.03886406 HUN_BA:I7040
    0.05087999 HRV_MBA:I4332
    0.05421105 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44
    0.06347716 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50
    0.07251258 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.07637189 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
    0.07674899 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
    0.07875470 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
    0.07934288 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
    0.08455779 CZE_EBA:I7196
    0.08483528 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.09170111 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
    0.09382116 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6
    0.09405861 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.10601722 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.10900788 CZE_EBA:I7200
    0.11113236 CZE_EBA:I7195
    0.11299805 CZE_EBA:I7201
    0.11405907 CZE_EBA:I7202
    0.11511215 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
    0.11715919 HUN_BA:I7042
    0.11842167 CZE_EBA:I4892

    Distance to: ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b

    0.02947394 HRV_MBA:I4331
    0.03048724 HUN_BA:I7040
    0.03149719 HRV_MBA:I4332
    0.03155726 HUN_BA:I7043
    0.03666060 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50
    0.04058545 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44
    0.04218627 HRV_EBA:I3499
    0.05830453 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
    0.06441887 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
    0.06790251 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
    0.06902526 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
    0.07811073 CZE_EBA:I7196
    0.08174837 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.08466554 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
    0.08510485 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.08826851 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6
    0.09625363 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.10462609 CZE_EBA:I7200
    0.10489784 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
    0.10556859 CZE_EBA:I7195
    0.10557984 HUN_BA:I7042
    0.10604794 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.10962435 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
    0.11020110 CZE_EBA:I7201
    0.11132451 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489

    Distance to: ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473

    0.03882498 HUN_BA:I7040
    0.04793418 HRV_MBA:I4331
    0.05059259 HRV_EBA:I3499
    0.05156205 HUN_BA:I7043
    0.05341671 HRV_MBA:I4332
    0.05455755 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50
    0.05521485 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44
    0.07658676 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.08276730 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
    0.08321317 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
    0.08404973 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
    0.08644575 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.08994418 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
    0.09052788 HUN_BA:I7042
    0.09058468 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
    0.09085964 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489
    0.09326179 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
    0.09402630 CZE_EBA:I7196
    0.09685247 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.10373999 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.10534016 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
    0.10667801 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6
    0.12860375 CZE_EBA:I7195
    0.12962410 CZE_EBA:I7201
    0.13258347 CZE_EBA:I7200

    Distance to: ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA:RMPR1021

    0.03955076 HUN_BA:I7040
    0.04891343 HUN_BA:I7043
    0.05003593 HRV_MBA:I4331
    0.05524475 HRV_MBA:I4332
    0.05593812 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44
    0.05757211 HRV_EBA:I3499
    0.05871093 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50
    0.07886437 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
    0.08223083 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
    0.08314325 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.08619195 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
    0.08658454 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
    0.08807274 CZE_EBA:I7196
    0.09000511 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
    0.09374318 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
    0.09387825 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.09747214 HUN_BA:I7042
    0.09855841 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489
    0.10296225 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
    0.10397961 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6
    0.10463181 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.10675926 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.12268479 CZE_EBA:I7201
    0.12470784 CZE_EBA:I7195
    0.12907313 CZE_EBA:I7200

    Distance to: ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1

    0.03663236 HRV_EBA:I3499
    0.03681141 HRV_MBA:I4331
    0.03825269 HUN_BA:I7043
    0.03886406 HUN_BA:I7040
    0.05087999 HRV_MBA:I4332
    0.05421105 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_44
    0.06347716 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_50
    0.07251258 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.07637189 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
    0.07674899 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
    0.07875470 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
    0.07934288 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
    0.08455779 CZE_EBA:I7196
    0.08483528 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.09170111 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
    0.09382116 DEU_Lech_EBA:POST_6
    0.09405861 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.10601722 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.10900788 CZE_EBA:I7200
    0.11113236 CZE_EBA:I7195
    0.11299805 CZE_EBA:I7201
    0.11405907 CZE_EBA:I7202
    0.11511215 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
    0.11715919 HUN_BA:I7042
    0.11842167 CZE_EBA:I4892

  22. #797
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    Looks like those guys didn't all come from exactly the same spots. Might explain the diversity of dialects : Latin, Faliscan, etc... all of them close, but clearly distinct. With differences suggesting they had been apart a while.

  23. #798
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    Anybody wants to be the "real" Romans but for god's sake let's not say that modern Italians are the descendents of the historical populations that inhabited Italy: I'll be honest and say that I deem both blood and culture to be needful for a people to make up an ethnic group, thus in my theoretical framework to deny the genetic continuity that the Italians have with the populations that lived in Italy is to sunder Italians from their heritage. Putting my personal perpective aside, the majority of studies have shown that there is a strong genetic continuity between Italians and populations in Italy since the iron age, so any extravagant claim straight from the XX century of "original" Italians/Latins/Italics that built the roman civilization coming from North Europe is pratically groundless; moreover, to focus so much on the fact that proto-italics had higher steppe-related ancestry than later italics is to divert the attention from the equally true fact that it was not the proto-italics that developed the italic cultures ( of which latin's was a part ) but later italics with lower steppe-related ancestry, so "british-like" proto-italics were not the ones responsible for the achievements of the subsequent italian people with low steppe-related ancestry. As for Davidsky, just today I scrolled down the comments of one post about "a whole new ancestry brought in Europe by the Romans/ancient Greeks", and unironically he believes that the all the historical Italian and Greek populations were like northern Italians/continental Europe (with the elites being germanic/slavic-like, of course! ) and that modern central and southern Italians are "mutts", so modern central and southern Italians not only are not the heirs of the classical greco-roman culture, but they are also not quite native to Europe and they ought to be kicked out of Europe! ( it sounds like a parody, but he himself really wrote that... ). These comments were from 2016 but in the last post he made about ancient Italians he still modelled the latin outliers, who cluster with modern day southern Italians, as italic-"semitic", and it speaks volumes about his incapacity of changing his initial theories when the data do not support them. finally let's also debunk a common accusation made by his folk to anyone criticising his models: it is not racist to say that in Italy there is not any significant gene flow from the middle east (escluding the EEF and neolithic Iran ), and to be fair many "semitic" peoples had great civilizations before any indo-european people, but I could argue that it is indeed racist to keep postulating biblical movement of people from all the middle east in order to make more than half of the population of Italy appear as the least "european" of all the continent, and to keep saying that the real responsible of all the classical civilizations were northern steppe pastoralists whose most closely related descendents are the eastern Europeans ( and of course Poles are especially related to them because of "muh R1a").

  24. #799
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    Anybody with half a brain who's been around for longer than a minute knows what Davidski is all about. Those who deny it either secretly agree with him or just want to be able to use his programs and post on his site or are so new to the "hobby" that they don't have a clue about the "players".

    If the debacle with the Mycenaeans, whom he claimed were going to be carbon copies of the Corded Ware people of Poland up until the day before the publication of the paper, and the Etruscans, who were going to be Anatolian Iron Age people up until a week before the paper came out, isn't enough for people to see his analyses aren't reliable then they're being wilfully blind. I certainly didn't make mistakes like that.

    Oh, and don't forget how the northern Indians were going to be 50% Andronovo or whatever nonsense he modeled for months.

    Ignore him.

    On to more important things.

    R473 Etruscan
    Distance to: R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    5.23807216 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.33017053 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    7.88686249 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    8.15739542 I2111_Trypillia
    8.17621551 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.33299466 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    8.84239786 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    9.36587423 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.46015856 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.83392089 I3151_Trypillia
    10.07499380 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.18056482 I2110_Trypillia
    10.61650131 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.62080505 I1926_Trypillia
    10.62551175 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    10.84815192 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    11.21283639 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.59367931 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    12.06694245 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    12.55335015 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    12.55979299 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    13.34862165 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
    14.53531217 I2440_Globular_Amphora
    14.54483757 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


    Bavaria BB did show up, but at a further distance than the Balkan samples. Same for the Spanish samples which show up.

    R474 Etruscan...This one has good hits to the German BB and North Alpine samples, but equally good hits to the Balkans Bronze Age.
    Distance to: R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    5.74122809 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    6.77580991 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    8.72072818 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    9.30280603 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    9.65161126 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.61332653 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.90744700 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    11.18787737 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    11.81452496 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    11.82549788 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    12.33373423 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    12.54336877 I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
    12.68957840 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    13.05530161 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.21538876 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
    14.00343886 I2111_Trypillia
    14.45190299 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
    14.92140074 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    15.52350798 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    15.70083756 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
    16.12808730 I3151_Trypillia
    16.32355047 BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
    16.50133328 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    16.56924561 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    17.55443819 BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874


    R1015 Etruscan-more Balkan Bronze Age heavy
    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    5.90466765 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.39762124 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.71334558 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    8.13312363 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.35159266 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    8.37548805 I2111_Trypillia
    8.72612743 I3151_Trypillia
    9.37365457 I2110_Trypillia
    9.64178925 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.76218725 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    9.95499874 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.42357424 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    10.52312216 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    10.70558733 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    10.72228520 I1926_Trypillia
    11.05433851 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    11.10513395 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.40769915 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.85190702 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    11.99557418 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
    12.39624540 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    13.15312510 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    14.56524631 ANI160_Varna_Outlier
    14.83928570 I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
    14.89781192 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


    R1016 Roman-the only upper class sample-again, closer to Bronze Age Balkans
    Distance to: R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    7.35068024 I3151_Trypillia
    8.76047373 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.09492716 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    9.45085710 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.68979876 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.22361971 I2110_Trypillia
    10.45816906 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    10.55012322 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    10.69418534 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.99995000 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    11.07581148 I2111_Trypillia
    11.10573726 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    11.18283506 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    11.73281296 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    11.86617040 I1926_Trypillia
    11.93298370 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    11.95698122 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    12.09002895 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
    12.25331384 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    12.57254549 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    13.06662925 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.48874716 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    14.70167337 ANI160_Varna_Outlier
    14.73282050 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    15.32862681 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


    Boville Ernica-Bavarian BB and a Spanish sample show up relatively early, but Balkans is first.
    Distance to: R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
    6.69770856 I3151_Trypillia
    7.95362182 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    8.44269507 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.72555911 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    9.81126393 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.30931133 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    10.38576911 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.45481229 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    10.87415284 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    11.41484998 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.43899034 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.56217540 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    12.04413965 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    12.20604768 I2110_Trypillia
    12.28929209 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    12.79157535 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.04577326 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    13.36867982 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    13.42683879 I2111_Trypillia
    14.22975755 I1926_Trypillia
    14.38184967 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
    14.64225392 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    14.87163407 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    16.00559902 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
    16.21570535 IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320

    R851, maybe more western?

    Distance to: R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
    7.12745396 I3151_Trypillia
    7.74215732 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    8.31362737 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    8.37911093 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    8.94475265 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    8.99763302 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.73866521 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    10.11018299 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.14648708 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    10.83610631 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    11.57587146 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    11.68067207 I2110_Trypillia
    11.81369967 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    12.75417971 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    12.96713538 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.14383886 I1926_Trypillia
    13.18246183 I2111_Trypillia
    13.56668346 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
    13.62619169 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    13.98647919 BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
    14.07380901 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    14.10845137 IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
    14.47627369 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    14.57562692 IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
    14.86646226 I2440_Globular_Amphora

    Same for R435
    Distance to: R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella
    2.14441134 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    6.60470287 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    6.79479212 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    6.97894691 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    7.11525825 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    8.59178678 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
    9.01150931 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    9.15171569 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.40140947 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    9.51282292 BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
    9.63494162 IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
    10.53571070 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    11.23877217 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
    11.64855356 IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
    12.15553783 BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
    12.23966911 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.58203961 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.76760691 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
    13.82287597 IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496
    13.98864540 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
    14.33947349 I3151_Trypillia
    14.60477319 BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874
    14.91302116 I2111_Trypillia
    15.69331705 I2440_Globular_Amphora
    15.79126974 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


    From what I can see there's a mixture of Balkan Bronze Age and North Alpine/German BB/Iberian Bronze Age, with some samples leaning more one way than the other.

    I would need more Etruscan samples to say whether they lean more "eastern" than "western" Bronze Age in comparison to the Latins.

    Whether it was always mixed or the mixture occurred after they arrived in Italy I don't know.

    To get a balanced view both German Beaker and Balkan Bronze have to be included in the sources.

  25. #800
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    I put the MTA Time lines because the values you are hanging do not work in the Vadhuo calculator, there are separations, 0.00, and it does not work.


    I have obtained very good results with Cogotas (Vettones) ilergetes, some illercavons, bell beaker, bronze age, bronze age north Alpine I obtained 18 results. In the Cogotas kit he gets El Argar, in a way ... I think getting better results would be already in the bronze jumping through the mountains, too good results from those samples I think for someone modern. (Both are mine, but I have an older kit)





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