Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

[Angela]

Anybody with half a brain who's been around for longer than a minute knows what Davidski is all about. Those who deny it either secretly agree with him or just want to be able to use his programs and post on his site or are so new to the "hobby" that they don't have a clue about the "players".

If the debacle with the Mycenaeans, whom he claimed were going to be carbon copies of the Corded Ware people of Poland up until the day before the publication of the paper, and the Etruscans, who were going to be Anatolian Iron Age people up until a week before the paper came out, isn't enough for people to see his analyses aren't reliable then they're being wilfully blind. I certainly didn't make mistakes like that.

Oh, and don't forget how the northern Indians were going to be 50% Andronovo or whatever nonsense he modeled for months.

Ignore him.

On to more important things.

R473 Etruscan

Distance to:	R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
5.23807216	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.33017053	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
7.88686249	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
8.15739542	I2111_Trypillia
8.17621551	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.33299466	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.84239786	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
9.36587423	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.46015856	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.83392089	I3151_Trypillia
10.07499380	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.18056482	I2110_Trypillia
10.61650131	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.62080505	I1926_Trypillia
10.62551175	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
10.84815192	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
11.21283639	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.59367931	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.06694245	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
12.55335015	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.55979299	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
13.34862165	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
14.53531217	I2440_Globular_Amphora
14.54483757	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

Bavaria BB did show up, but at a further distance than the Balkan samples. Same for the Spanish samples which show up.

R474 Etruscan...This one has good hits to the German BB and North Alpine samples, but equally good hits to the Balkans Bronze Age.

Distance to:	R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
5.74122809	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
6.77580991	Bavaria_BB_II5524
8.72072818	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
9.30280603	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
9.65161126	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.61332653	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.90744700	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
11.18787737	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
11.81452496	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
11.82549788	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
12.33373423	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.54336877	I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.68957840	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.05530161	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.21538876	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
14.00343886	I2111_Trypillia
14.45190299	I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
14.92140074	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.52350798	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
15.70083756	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
16.12808730	I3151_Trypillia
16.32355047	BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
16.50133328	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
16.56924561	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
17.55443819	BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874

R1015 Etruscan-more Balkan Bronze Age heavy

Distance to:	R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
5.90466765	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.39762124	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.71334558	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
8.13312363	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.35159266	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.37548805	I2111_Trypillia
8.72612743	I3151_Trypillia
9.37365457	I2110_Trypillia
9.64178925	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.76218725	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
9.95499874	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.42357424	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
10.52312216	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
10.70558733	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
10.72228520	I1926_Trypillia
11.05433851	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
11.10513395	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.40769915	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.85190702	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.99557418	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
12.39624540	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.15312510	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
14.56524631	ANI160_Varna_Outlier
14.83928570	I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
14.89781192	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

R1016 Roman-the only upper class sample-again, closer to Bronze Age Balkans

Distance to:	R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
7.35068024	I3151_Trypillia
8.76047373	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.09492716	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
9.45085710	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.68979876	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.22361971	I2110_Trypillia
10.45816906	Bavaria_BB_II5524
10.55012322	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
10.69418534	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.99995000	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
11.07581148	I2111_Trypillia
11.10573726	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
11.18283506	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
11.73281296	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.86617040	I1926_Trypillia
11.93298370	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
11.95698122	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.09002895	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
12.25331384	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
12.57254549	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.06662925	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.48874716	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
14.70167337	ANI160_Varna_Outlier
14.73282050	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
15.32862681	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

Boville Ernica-Bavarian BB and a Spanish sample show up relatively early, but Balkans is first.

Distance to:	R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
6.69770856	I3151_Trypillia
7.95362182	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
8.44269507	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.72555911	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
9.81126393	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.30931133	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
10.38576911	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.45481229	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
10.87415284	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
11.41484998	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.43899034	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.56217540	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
12.04413965	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.20604768	I2110_Trypillia
12.28929209	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
12.79157535	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.04577326	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
13.36867982	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
13.42683879	I2111_Trypillia
14.22975755	I1926_Trypillia
14.38184967	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
14.64225392	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.87163407	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
16.00559902	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
16.21570535	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320

R851, maybe more western?

Distance to:	R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
7.12745396	I3151_Trypillia
7.74215732	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
8.31362737	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.37911093	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
8.94475265	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
8.99763302	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.73866521	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
10.11018299	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.14648708	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
10.83610631	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
11.57587146	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
11.68067207	I2110_Trypillia
11.81369967	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.75417971	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.96713538	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.14383886	I1926_Trypillia
13.18246183	I2111_Trypillia
13.56668346	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
13.62619169	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
13.98647919	BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
14.07380901	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.10845137	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
14.47627369	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
14.57562692	IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
14.86646226	I2440_Globular_Amphora

Same for R435

Distance to:	R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella
2.14441134	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
6.60470287	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
6.79479212	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
6.97894691	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
7.11525825	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.59178678	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
9.01150931	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
9.15171569	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.40140947	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
9.51282292	BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
9.63494162	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
10.53571070	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
11.23877217	I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
11.64855356	IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
12.15553783	BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
12.23966911	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.58203961	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.76760691	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
13.82287597	IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496
13.98864540	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
14.33947349	I3151_Trypillia
14.60477319	BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874
14.91302116	I2111_Trypillia
15.69331705	I2440_Globular_Amphora
15.79126974	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge

From what I can see there's a mixture of Balkan Bronze Age and North Alpine/German BB/Iberian Bronze Age, with some samples leaning more one way than the other.

I would need more Etruscan samples to say whether they lean more "eastern" than "western" Bronze Age in comparison to the Latins.

Whether it was always mixed or the mixture occurred after they arrived in Italy I don't know.

To get a balanced view both German Beaker and Balkan Bronze have to be included in the sources.

[Carlos]

I put the MTA Time lines because the values you are hanging do not work in the Vadhuo calculator, there are separations, 0.00, and it does not work.


I have obtained very good results with Cogotas (Vettones) ilergetes, some illercavons, bell beaker, bronze age, bronze age north Alpine I obtained 18 results. In the Cogotas kit he gets El Argar, in a way ... I think getting better results would be already in the bronze jumping through the mountains, too good results from those samples I think for someone modern. (Both are mine, but I have an older kit)

[Palermo Trapani]

bicicleur: Is is fair to say that the Steppe migration people were varied in source populations. The Samarra culture to the North was exclusively Eastern European Hunter Gather and that would be part of the Steppe migration, would it not. The Yamnaya I think was in the Southern Danube region including Hungary, Austria, and likely included less EHG and more CHG and Iran Neolithic component. Lazaridis et al (2016) in "Genomic Insights into the Origin of Farming in the Near East" , Nature Vol. 536 p.423 documents that 43% of the ancestry in the Yamnaya was CHG and Iran Neolithic thus 57% would be EHG. So it has been documented by Raveane et al (2019) "Population Structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe", Science Advances 5. In Figure 2 of that paper, they document a strong CHG signal in pretty much every Italian Region save 1, which is I think the Northern Most one. Clearly Lazio has a strong CHG signal. It is documented in more Southern European Countries but not in NW Europe or Northern Europe or Eastern Europe in the samples that they used. So when speaking of the Steppe into Italy, is it possible that the pro-Italics had related but distinct admixture of EHG and CHG whereas the further North you go, the Steppe migration was more EHG.

[Ygorcs]

bicicleur: Is is fair to say that the Steppe migration people were varied in source populations. The Samarra culture to the North was exclusively Eastern European Hunter Gather and that would be part of the Steppe migration, would it not. The Yamnaya I think was in the Southern Danube region including Hungary, Austria, and likely included less EHG and more CHG and Iran Neolithic component. Lazaridis et al (2016) in "Genomic Insights into the Origin of Farming in the Near East" , Nature Vol. 536 p.423 documents that 43% of the ancestry in the Yamnaya was CHG and Iran Neolithic thus 57% would be EHG. So it has been documented by Raveane et al (2019) "Population Structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe", Science Advances 5. In Figure 2 of that paper, they document a strong CHG signal in pretty much every Italian Region save 1, which is I think the Northern Most one. Clearly Lazio has a strong CHG signal. It is documented in more Southern European Countries but not in NW Europe or Northern Europe or Eastern Europe in the samples that they used. So when speaking of the Steppe into Italy, is it possible that the pro-Italics had related but distinct admixture of EHG and CHG whereas the further North you go, the Steppe migration was more EHG.

The Samara Culture existed much earlier than the bulk of the steppe migrations westwards and eastwards. By the time they happened, in the LCA and EBA, the Khvalynsk-related people had mixed extensively with Progress-related people (rich in CHG) and also in some parts with Sredny Stog-related people to form a more homogeneous Yamnaya-like cluster. I'm sure there was internal genetic structure with some having more EHG than others, but not dramatic differences as the ones that existed before in the LN or ECA.

I believe the extra CHG in some regions of Italy is more easily explainable as the final outcome of the same thing that had already started before the steppe migrations in the Central-Eastern Mediterranean: the increase in CHG/Iranian-related ancestry, in a descending cline from east to west (probably arriving in most places already diluted with ANF and EEF), independently of any steppe migration. That's what explains e.g. the Minoans and the Sicilian Bell Beaker.

[bicicleur]

there is some neolithic CHG in Italy
first pottery arrived in the northern Zagros 9 ka
between 9 and 8,8 ka herders started to move west

Attachment 11782


they had ceramics, probably sieves for dairy production

Attachment 11783


these people were probably CHG, it has been detected in Diros cave on the Peloponesos, and now in Italian neolithic
8,6 ka some of these people introduced cattle and ceramics in central anatolia, they were probably Y-DNA J and T
that is when Anatolian farmers started to move

Attachment 11784


they were G2a2 and C1a2, detected in Central Anatolia before, but also some minor J and T
but all this is not the main source of CHG in the Mediterranean today, that is bronze age CHG

[bicicleur]

The Samara Culture existed much earlier than the bulk of the steppe migrations westwards and eastwards. By the time they happened, in the LCA and EBA, the Khvalynsk-related people had mixed extensively with Progress-related people (rich in CHG) and also in some parts with Sredny Stog-related people to form a more homogeneous Yamnaya-like cluster. I'm sure there was internal genetic structure with some having more EHG than others, but not dramatic differences as the ones that existed before in the LN or ECA.
I believe the extra CHG in some regions of Italy is more easily explainable as the final outcome of the same thing that had already started before the steppe migrations in the Central-Eastern Mediterranean: the increase in CHG/Iranian-related ancestry, in a descending cline from east to west (probably arriving in most places already diluted with ANF and EEF), independently of any steppe migration. That's what explains e.g. the Minoans and the Sicilian Bell Beaker.

the Khvalynsk had steppe ancestry admixed with a tad of Siberian ancestry, their Y DNA was R1b (probably pre-V88), R1a and Q1a (hence the tad Siberian)
the people around the Dnjepr had steppe ancestry admixed with a tad of EEF, their Y DNA was pre-V88 R1b and I2a2a-L701

the Yamna were R1b-Z2103, they had pure steppe ancestry, no Siberian, no EEF
they were derived from R1b-P297, who were detected north since 9 ka, in the Samara and eastern Baltic area
during the 6,2 ka cold spell, some R1b-M269 probably moved south into the steppe, they were the Repin people who arrived in the Don-Volga area ca 5,95 ka
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P297/

[bicicleur]

The Samara Culture existed much earlier than the bulk of the steppe migrations westwards and eastwards. By the time they happened, in the LCA and EBA, the Khvalynsk-related people had mixed extensively with Progress-related people (rich in CHG) and also in some parts with Sredny Stog-related people to form a more homogeneous Yamnaya-like cluster. I'm sure there was internal genetic structure with some having more EHG than others, but not dramatic differences as the ones that existed before in the LN or ECA.

I believe the extra CHG in some regions of Italy is more easily explainable as the final outcome of the same thing that had already started before the steppe migrations in the Central-Eastern Mediterranean: the increase in CHG/Iranian-related ancestry, in a descending cline from east to west (probably arriving in most places already diluted with ANF and EEF), independently of any steppe migration. That's what explains e.g. the Minoans and the Sicilian Bell Beaker.

can you tell me more about these Progress-related people?

[etrusco]

the Khvalynsk had steppe ancestry admixed with a tad of Siberian ancestry, their Y DNA was R1b (probably pre-V88), R1a and Q1a (hence the tad Siberian)
the people around the Dnjepr had steppe ancestry admixed with a tad of EEF, their Y DNA was pre-V88 R1b and I2a2a-L701

the Yamna were R1b-Z2103, they had pure steppe ancestry, no Siberian, no EEF
they were derived from R1b-P297, who were detected north since 9 ka, in the Samara and eastern Baltic area
during the 6,2 ka cold spell, some R1b-M269 probably moved south into the steppe, they were the Repin people who arrived in the Don-Volga area ca 5,95 ka
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P297/

Yamnaya had EEF, on average around 14%.
Do you know if R1b P297 in Kunda and Narva culture ( the eastern baltic R1b you mentioned) are ancestral to the Samara HG R1b? It would be quite interesting because Kunda and Narva were something like 75% WHG.

[Maciamo]

We have quite a few Bronze Age samples from those areas, and from Spain. I don't remember anyone getting good matches with them, although I just may have missed a post here and there.

NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_43,5.01,0.00,0.13, 0.00,45.31,32.18,0.00,0.00,3.09,1.44,12.35,0.48
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40 ,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0. 00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30 ,0.19
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00 ,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54 ,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00 ,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,4 0.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99

BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,5 4.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95

BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21 .76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52 .24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48 ,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47 ,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00, 61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49

When you say 'I don't remember anyone getting good matches with them', did you mean forum members or Iron Age Italian samples? Anyway, my family gets a distance between 2 and 5 for NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78 and BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874 and generally good matches with all the AITI samples from Kleinaitingen (EBA Bavaria, contemporaneous to the Unetice culture to the east).

As for Iron Age Italians, my closest match (R435 Latin from Praeneste) is also close to those AITI samples. EBA Bavaria is part of the Tumulus culture, which is ancestral to the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures, so it's not surprising to find a connection with Italics too.

Distance to:	R435__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Colombella
4.63867438	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_43
6.60470287	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
8.59178678	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119

[Angela]

When you say 'I don't remember anyone getting good matches with them', did you mean forum members or Iron Age Italian samples? Anyway, my family gets a distance between 2 and 5 for NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78 and BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874 and generally good matches with all the AITI samples from Kleinaitingen (EBA Bavaria, contemporaneous to the Unetice culture to the east).

As for Iron Age Italians, my closest match (R435 Latin from Praeneste) is also close to those AITI samples. EBA Bavaria is part of the Tumulus culture, which is ancestral to the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures, so it's not surprising to find a connection with Italics too.

Distance to:	R435__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Colombella
4.63867438	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_43
6.60470287	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
8.59178678	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119

Sorry, I meant that I didn't remember other posters getting them, and certainly not British Bronze Age, at good fits. I get Bavaria BB, for example, but it's not a great match, much worse than Balkan Bronze Age. Torzio has since posted and he's at about a 7, if I remember correctly. No Piemontese or Lombards have posted, so I don't know if they'd do better.

That prompted me to run Jovialis' whole list of Balkan samples, plus the Iberian Bronze, British Bronze, and German North Alpine Bronze for the more "northern" Italian Iron Age samples. I posted the following on the Iron Age thread.


Did you include these, Jovialis? I ask because of a discussion I'm having with Ygorcs about whether there was a British Bronze Age or Iberian or North Alpine pull in these samples.

Just for the heck of it I added them. (If some are post Iron Age, please let me know and I'll remove them.)

NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40 ,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0. 00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30 ,0.19
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00 ,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54 ,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00 ,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,4 0.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239,0.00,0.00,2.63,2.34,44. 59,28.94,2.32,0.66,0.00,0.00,18.51,0.00
IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496,5.38,0.21,0. 75,0.00,53.63,28.85,1.92,1.72,5.92,0.00,1.63,0.00
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243,8.87,0.00,2.93,4.86,36. 62,38.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.67,0.00
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977,2.96,0.00,2.41,0.00,5 2.45,25.53,0.60,0.00,3.19,0.00,12.86,0.00
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9,0.89,0.00,1.25,0.00,58.14,21. 43,0.49,0.00,4.69,0.00,11.18,1.93
BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21 .76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52 .24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48 ,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47 ,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00, 61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49
BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,5 4.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95
Bavaria_BB_II5524,2.95,0.00,1.28,1.77,41.61,28.76, 0.00,0.00,3.52,0.00,20.12,0.00
BronzeAgeEngland_I2462,8.52,1.12,1.18,0.00,45.45,3 3.73,0.00,0.00,2.08,0.00,6.90,1.02
BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655,9.88,0.61,0.00,0.39,3 7.20,45.77,0.76,0.00,0.29,0.00,4.27,0.82
NeolithicScotland_I2634,0.00,0.00,6.63,1.42,60.56, 11.65,0.00,0.21,7.56,0.00,11.96,0.00


Same samples:

R473 Etruscan

Distance to:	R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
5.23807216	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.33017053	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
7.88686249	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
8.15739542	I2111_Trypillia
8.17621551	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.33299466	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.84239786	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
9.36587423	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.46015856	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.83392089	I3151_Trypillia
10.07499380	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.18056482	I2110_Trypillia
10.61650131	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.62080505	I1926_Trypillia
10.62551175	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
10.84815192	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
11.21283639	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.59367931	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.06694245	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
12.55335015	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.55979299	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
13.34862165	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
14.53531217	I2440_Globular_Amphora
14.54483757	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

Bavaria BB did show up, but at a further distance than the Balkan samples. Same for the Spanish samples which show up.

R474 Etruscan...This one has good hits to the German BB and North Alpine samples

Distance to:	R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
5.74122809	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
6.77580991	Bavaria_BB_II5524
8.72072818	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
9.30280603	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
9.65161126	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.61332653	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.90744700	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
11.18787737	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
11.81452496	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
11.82549788	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
12.33373423	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.54336877	I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.68957840	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.05530161	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.21538876	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
14.00343886	I2111_Trypillia
14.45190299	I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
14.92140074	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.52350798	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
15.70083756	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
16.12808730	I3151_Trypillia
16.32355047	BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
16.50133328	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
16.56924561	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
17.55443819	BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874

R1015 Etruscan-more Balkan Bronze Age heavy

Distance to:	R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
5.90466765	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.39762124	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.71334558	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
8.13312363	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.35159266	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.37548805	I2111_Trypillia
8.72612743	I3151_Trypillia
9.37365457	I2110_Trypillia
9.64178925	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.76218725	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
9.95499874	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.42357424	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
10.52312216	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
10.70558733	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
10.72228520	I1926_Trypillia
11.05433851	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
11.10513395	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.40769915	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.85190702	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.99557418	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
12.39624540	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.15312510	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
14.56524631	ANI160_Varna_Outlier
14.83928570	I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
14.89781192	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

R1016 Roman-the only upper class sample-again, closer to Bronze Age Balkans

Distance to:	R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
7.35068024	I3151_Trypillia
8.76047373	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.09492716	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
9.45085710	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.68979876	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.22361971	I2110_Trypillia
10.45816906	Bavaria_BB_II5524
10.55012322	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
10.69418534	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.99995000	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
11.07581148	I2111_Trypillia
11.10573726	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
11.18283506	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
11.73281296	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.86617040	I1926_Trypillia
11.93298370	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
11.95698122	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.09002895	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
12.25331384	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
12.57254549	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.06662925	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.48874716	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
14.70167337	ANI160_Varna_Outlier
14.73282050	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
15.32862681	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

Boville Ernica-Bavarian BB and a Spanish sample show up relatively early

Distance to:	R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
6.69770856	I3151_Trypillia
7.95362182	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
8.44269507	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.72555911	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
9.81126393	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.30931133	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
10.38576911	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.45481229	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
10.87415284	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
11.41484998	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.43899034	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.56217540	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
12.04413965	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.20604768	I2110_Trypillia
12.28929209	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
12.79157535	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.04577326	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
13.36867982	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
13.42683879	I2111_Trypillia
14.22975755	I1926_Trypillia
14.38184967	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
14.64225392	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.87163407	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
16.00559902	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
16.21570535	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320

Distance to:	R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
7.12745396	I3151_Trypillia
7.74215732	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
8.31362737	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.37911093	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
8.94475265	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
8.99763302	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.73866521	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
10.11018299	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.14648708	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
10.83610631	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
11.57587146	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
11.68067207	I2110_Trypillia
11.81369967	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.75417971	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.96713538	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.14383886	I1926_Trypillia
13.18246183	I2111_Trypillia
13.56668346	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
13.62619169	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
13.98647919	BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
14.07380901	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.10845137	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
14.47627369	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
14.57562692	IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
14.86646226	I2440_Globular_Amphora

Distance to:	R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella
2.14441134	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
6.60470287	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
6.79479212	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
6.97894691	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
7.11525825	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.59178678	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
9.01150931	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
9.15171569	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.40140947	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
9.51282292	BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
9.63494162	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
10.53571070	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
11.23877217	I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
11.64855356	IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
12.15553783	BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
12.23966911	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.58203961	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.76760691	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
13.82287597	IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496
13.98864540	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
14.33947349	I3151_Trypillia
14.60477319	BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874
14.91302116	I2111_Trypillia
15.69331705	I2440_Globular_Amphora
15.79126974	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge

From what I can see there's a mixture of Balkan Bronze Age on the one side, and North Alpine/German BB/French/Iberian Bronze Age on the other, so a sort of west/east continuum, with some samples leaning more one way than the other, but having hits to both.

That makes sense to me given Italy's "Central Med" position geographically.

However, I couldn't really make a determination as to whether Etruscans on average are more one than the other than the Latins. Now, whether that's because there were originally two streams into Italy from the north which then mixed, or because it was one mixed group originally and it was a matter of individual variation in not completely stable populations, I don't know.

I had previously thought that perhaps the Etruscans had a more "western" origin, partly on the basis of data in Cassidy et al, but that doesn't appear in the data we have so far.

[Palermo Trapani]

Ygorcs: Fair enough but I guess I am trying to reconcile Lazaradis et al (2016) "Genomic insights into the Origin of Farming in the ancient Near East" when the authors state early Bronze Age Steppe peoples had 43% CHG/Iranian Neolithic related ancestry. As those peoples moved Westward, they would have encountered other peoples already in the areas they migrated through so I am wondering with respect to the peoples who would bring in the Latin Language, how could they be modeled with respect to EEF, CHG/Iranian-related ancestry, EHG, WHG, etc. I don't think they were EHG exclusively like the Samara peoples who went to the Nothern Baltics, Scandinavia, etc and thus had some admixture with CHG. So I guess what you are suggesting is the only source of CHG and Iranian Neolithic ancestry in Italy is via the expansion of the Early European Farmers from Anatolia, and none entered via the Steppe?

Thanks for the response.

[Ygorcs]

can you tell me more about these Progress-related people?

Basically my idea, considering the available aDNA samples, is that in the Eneolithic you had Sredny Stog-like in the west, Khvalynsk-like in the northeast and Progress-like in the southeast of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Progress-like people already had a lot of CHG (~40-50%) similar to the bulk of the Yamnaya, whereas it was pretty minor in Sredny Stog and significant but still minor in Khvalynsk. By the time of the Yamnaya and Corded Ware expansion, according to my own analysis (so take it with a grain of salt, of couse), the Yamnaya and Early CWC were mostly a mix of those 3 earlier populations in varying proportions (Early CWC seems to have had more Sredny Stog-like admixture, which might help explain the presence of R1a as opposed to R1b as the major haplogroup in that population). In my opinion Progress-like people expanded, mixed with Khvalynsk-like and eventually spread westwards (Late Khvalynsk/Early Repin), absorbing the Sredny Stog people of Ukraine.

From the Neolithic to the EBA (Yamnaya), the main change in Ukraine involved the near disappearance of WHG and the huge increase in the CHG. These two things do not suggest to me an influence from the north or northwest (Baltic area), but rather an influence from the south (Caucasus Piedmont, Caspian coast).

[Angela]

Basically my idea, considering the available aDNA samples, is that in the Eneolithic you had Sredny Stog-like in the west, Khvalynsk-like in the northeast and Progress-like in the southeast of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Progress-like people already had a lot of CHG (~40-50%) similar to the bulk of the Yamnaya, whereas it was pretty minor in Sredny Stog and significant but still minor in Khvalynsk. By the time of the Yamnaya and Corded Ware expansion, according to my own analysis (so take it with a grain of salt, of couse), the Yamnaya and Early CWC were mostly a mix of those 3 earlier populations in varying proportions (Early CWC seems to have had more Sredny Stog-like admixture, which might help explain the presence of R1a as opposed to R1b as the major haplogroup in that population). In my opinion Progress-like people expanded, mixed with Khvalynsk-like and eventually spread westwards (Late Khvalynsk/Early Repin), absorbing the Sredny Stog people of Ukraine.

From the Neolithic to the EBA (Yamnaya), the main change in Ukraine involved the near disappearance of WHG and the huge increase in the CHG. These two things do not suggest to me an influence from the north or northwest (Baltic area), but rather an influence from the south (Caucasus Piedmont, Caspian coast).

Very persuasive, Ygorcs.

[bicicleur]

Basically my idea, considering the available aDNA samples, is that in the Eneolithic you had Sredny Stog-like in the west, Khvalynsk-like in the northeast and Progress-like in the southeast of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Progress-like people already had a lot of CHG (~40-50%) similar to the bulk of the Yamnaya, whereas it was pretty minor in Sredny Stog and significant but still minor in Khvalynsk. By the time of the Yamnaya and Corded Ware expansion, according to my own analysis (so take it with a grain of salt, of couse), the Yamnaya and Early CWC were mostly a mix of those 3 earlier populations in varying proportions (Early CWC seems to have had more Sredny Stog-like admixture, which might help explain the presence of R1a as opposed to R1b as the major haplogroup in that population). In my opinion Progress-like people expanded, mixed with Khvalynsk-like and eventually spread westwards (Late Khvalynsk/Early Repin), absorbing the Sredny Stog people of Ukraine.

From the Neolithic to the EBA (Yamnaya), the main change in Ukraine involved the near disappearance of WHG and the huge increase in the CHG. These two things do not suggest to me an influence from the north or northwest (Baltic area), but rather an influence from the south (Caucasus Piedmont, Caspian coast).

now, I remember all of a sudden

you refer to the samples found on the Porgress site as described in the Wang papre?

[Alan]

R116 the "outlier" with high Steppe dated to 0-200 CE. Maybe he was a Gallic immigrant to Rome?:

(this sample has the highest level of Steppe admixture out of all Imperial samples, so not "typical")

His Y-DNA haplogroup: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

K36 results:

Arabian 0.67
Armenian 0.63
Basque 5.90
Central_Euro 3.24
East_Balkan 6.25
East_Central_Euro 3.07
East_Med 0.02
Eastern_Euro 3.92
Fennoscandian 4.08
French 7.39
Iberian 25.17
Italian 16.47
Near_Eastern 0.74
North_Atlantic 7.52
North_Sea 12.29
Volga-Ural 1.36
West_Med 1.29

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

Haven't been around for a long time, I come back and this interesting study takes my attention.

The fact that we barely have any prior to 0 CE and that the authors mention this eastern influx into Romans as Iranian_Neolithic rather than CHG makes not only me wonder that the source of Latin Indo European might be really different. And goes hand in hand with my previous theory that the Steppes was the source for most European Indo European languages but not all.

The most recent literature demonstrated significant impact of Caucasus-related ancestry in the Central European Late-Neolithic and Bronze-Age through the migrations of Yamnaya/Pontic-Steppe herders. Accordingly, our results confirm that Caucasus-related admixture via Yamnaya is present in Eastern and Central-Western European clusters (i.e. Continental Europe; Supplementary Table S8, Supplementary Information). However, among our Mediterranean groups, evidence of Yamnaya (and EHG) introgression seems to be present at a lesser extent and was detected mainly in Balkan-related groups (Supplementary Table S8, Supplementary Information), which in turn display traces of admixture with Eastern Europe (Fig. 4, Supplementary Fig. S2). In addition, outgroup-f3 values for Late Neolithic/Bronze Age samples (especially Yamnaya) appear lower in all our newly analysed Mediterranean populations (Supplementary Fig. S9). These results suggest that the genetic history of Southern Italian and Balkan populations may have been, at least in part, independent from that of Eastern and Central Europe, involving specific migratory events that carried Caucasian and Levantine genetic contributes along the Mediterranean shores (see Supplementary Information). This picture may bring important implications for our understanding of the cultural history of Europe, and in particular for the diffusion of Indo-European languages. The Steppe in the Early Bronze Age has been supported as a source of at least some Indo-European languages entering North-Central Europe at that time. In southern Mediterranean Europe, however, our results suggest lower impacts. Any significant Steppe/northern component may have arrived in the south Balkan mainland and southern Italy only later, by which time Indo-European languages of the Italic, Greek and various Balkan branches had already established themselves there. This would suggest that a Bronze Age Steppe source may be not highly consistent with all branches of the Indo-European family (see also Broushaki et al.).



Summing it up, our analyses show that a Caucasus-related ancestry is observed in both Southern Italian and Southern Balkan populations. Nevertheless, these populations do not seem to reveal such significant evidence of Bronze-Age Yamanya-like introgressions, which have been interpreted as the most probable vectors of CHG-like ancestry in Central-Eastern and Northern Europe and were also linked with the demographic diffusion of some Indo-European languages. These results may suggest that Caucasus-related ancestry reached our Mediterranean populations through migratory events at least partly independent from those postulated for Central Europe, most likely through Anatolia. If so, the spread of Indo-European languages in Europe may be envisaged as a more complex multi-way phenomenon, rather than the one-way result of a single diffusion process.

Also as Angela correctly pointed out that "tail" is called Levantine tail not Near Eastern per se. It represents Levant_Neo_BA type of ancestry during the very early stages of Rome. And I am not suprised to be honest we know that before Rome the Civilizations were based around the Near East and those people were probably something like pioneers bringing important goods and ideas into the Italian Peninsula. However the Iran_Neolithic genes seem to be more ancient. We already see allot of it during the late Neolithic but also a rise of it back again at Iron Age. EHG on the other hand appears more sporadic when Rome has been established, makes you wonder if those , with the vocabulary of Polako, were not "immigrant outliers" .

[torzio]

based on post # 808

Distance to:	Torziok12b
7.89459942	Bavaria_BB_II5524
8.87062568	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
10.55301379	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
13.52289540	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
15.06901457	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
15.97685201	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
17.33912339	BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874
17.88934599	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243
18.57029887	BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
19.37494258	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
20.13756440	NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2
22.04581366	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
24.12289369	NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50
24.25831198	BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
24.66223834	IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
25.34179354	BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655
26.10284276	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
26.46820923	IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496
28.42436631	BellBeakerFranceI1388
31.73002994	IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136
32.26507245	NeolithicScotland_I2634

[Alan]

Imperial Rome based on 24 samples from Antonio et al:


29.1 % J2a-M410 7
20.8 % G2a2 5
16.6 % J1a 4
8.3 % R1b 2
4.1 % J2b-M241 1
4.1 % J2b-M205 1
4.1 % T1a 1
4.1 % R1a 1
4.1 % R2a 1
4.1 % E1b-v12 1

J1a Doesn't look Semitic

A surprise to see no J1c3 subclades since the Levant was pretty much Semitic by majority at that time.

J1a, J2a2, J2b, R1b, R2a. In fact this looks more like How Anatolia-Iranian Plateau influence would have looked like.

[Angela]

J1a Doesn't look Semitic

A surprise to see no J1c3 subclades since the Levant was pretty much Semitic by majority at that time.

J1a, J2a2, J2b, R1b, R2a. In fact this looks more like How Anatolia-Iranian Plateau influence would have looked like.

Not everyone buried in Rome was a "local" or stayed and mixed their genes with locals. However, some obviously did, and indeed, going by yDna it doesn't look like a very big "Semitic" component. Anatolia/Iran is another story, whether directly or via Greece and its islands and settlements in Asia Minor or both.

Also, for clarity, there are two Latin Iron Age samples with this kind of ancestry. R850 is Cretan like, and R437 has perhaps half of that kind of ancestry.

[Bucket]

However the Iran_Neolithic genes seem to be more ancient. We already see allot of it during the late Neolithic but also a rise of it back again at Iron Age. EHG on the other hand appears more sporadic when Rome has been established, makes you wonder if those , with the vocabulary of Polako, were not "immigrant outliers" .

Are you saying that those North-West Med looking Latins are immigrants?

[Jovialis]

Cretan Greeks vs 647 ancient samples; top 100:

[Angela]

Cretan Greeks vs 647 ancient samples; top 100:

Indeed, there's the proof that most of them were Crete like. The samples from the Greek Empuries samples in Spain also come out rather Crete like.

I'm starting to think maybe the Greeks of the Classical Era were pretty much island Greek like, although of course we need ancient samples from the mainland in that period to really know for sure.

I hope that the Reich Lab has some samples. It would be great if they included them for comparison to the Iron Age Southern Italians in their upcoming paper.

[Salento]

A piece of Imperial R114 - R50 - R51, the Latin R437, ... all share a position in my 20th chromosome.
Maybe there’s continuity to these days.





...

[Dianatomia]

Indeed, there's the proof that most of them were Crete like. The samples from the Greek Empuries samples in Spain also come out rather Crete like.

I'm starting to think maybe the Greeks of the Classical Era were pretty much island Greek like, although of course we need ancient samples from the mainland in that period to really know for sure.

I hope that the Reich Lab has some samples. It would be great if they included them for comparison to the Iron Age Southern Italians in their upcoming paper.

Yep, it is unlikely that the Steppe admixture influx has stopped during the Bronze Age. I guess that the Classical Greeks had more Steppe than Mycenaeans, but less than the modern Greeks. But the Mycenaeans surprised us, so maybe perhaps also the Classical Greeks in some way.

[Salento]

In another position in the 20º chromosomes the Latin R850 and R437 (again), Roman Imperial R436, Villas and Palaces owners :) ,...

[Salento]

R1 also has a chromosomal affinity with R114: