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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    bicicleur: Is is fair to say that the Steppe migration people were varied in source populations. The Samarra culture to the North was exclusively Eastern European Hunter Gather and that would be part of the Steppe migration, would it not. The Yamnaya I think was in the Southern Danube region including Hungary, Austria, and likely included less EHG and more CHG and Iran Neolithic component. Lazaridis et al (2016) in "Genomic Insights into the Origin of Farming in the Near East" , Nature Vol. 536 p.423 documents that 43% of the ancestry in the Yamnaya was CHG and Iran Neolithic thus 57% would be EHG. So it has been documented by Raveane et al (2019) "Population Structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe", Science Advances 5. In Figure 2 of that paper, they document a strong CHG signal in pretty much every Italian Region save 1, which is I think the Northern Most one. Clearly Lazio has a strong CHG signal. It is documented in more Southern European Countries but not in NW Europe or Northern Europe or Eastern Europe in the samples that they used. So when speaking of the Steppe into Italy, is it possible that the pro-Italics had related but distinct admixture of EHG and CHG whereas the further North you go, the Steppe migration was more EHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    bicicleur: Is is fair to say that the Steppe migration people were varied in source populations. The Samarra culture to the North was exclusively Eastern European Hunter Gather and that would be part of the Steppe migration, would it not. The Yamnaya I think was in the Southern Danube region including Hungary, Austria, and likely included less EHG and more CHG and Iran Neolithic component. Lazaridis et al (2016) in "Genomic Insights into the Origin of Farming in the Near East" , Nature Vol. 536 p.423 documents that 43% of the ancestry in the Yamnaya was CHG and Iran Neolithic thus 57% would be EHG. So it has been documented by Raveane et al (2019) "Population Structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe", Science Advances 5. In Figure 2 of that paper, they document a strong CHG signal in pretty much every Italian Region save 1, which is I think the Northern Most one. Clearly Lazio has a strong CHG signal. It is documented in more Southern European Countries but not in NW Europe or Northern Europe or Eastern Europe in the samples that they used. So when speaking of the Steppe into Italy, is it possible that the pro-Italics had related but distinct admixture of EHG and CHG whereas the further North you go, the Steppe migration was more EHG.
    The Samara Culture existed much earlier than the bulk of the steppe migrations westwards and eastwards. By the time they happened, in the LCA and EBA, the Khvalynsk-related people had mixed extensively with Progress-related people (rich in CHG) and also in some parts with Sredny Stog-related people to form a more homogeneous Yamnaya-like cluster. I'm sure there was internal genetic structure with some having more EHG than others, but not dramatic differences as the ones that existed before in the LN or ECA.

    I believe the extra CHG in some regions of Italy is more easily explainable as the final outcome of the same thing that had already started before the steppe migrations in the Central-Eastern Mediterranean: the increase in CHG/Iranian-related ancestry, in a descending cline from east to west (probably arriving in most places already diluted with ANF and EEF), independently of any steppe migration. That's what explains e.g. the Minoans and the Sicilian Bell Beaker.

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    there is some neolithic CHG in Italy
    first pottery arrived in the northern Zagros 9 ka
    between 9 and 8,8 ka herders started to move west

    Attachment 11782


    they had ceramics, probably sieves for dairy production

    Attachment 11783


    these people were probably CHG, it has been detected in Diros cave on the Peloponesos, and now in Italian neolithic
    8,6 ka some of these people introduced cattle and ceramics in central anatolia, they were probably Y-DNA J and T
    that is when Anatolian farmers started to move

    Attachment 11784


    they were G2a2 and C1a2, detected in Central Anatolia before, but also some minor J and T
    but all this is not the main source of CHG in the Mediterranean today, that is bronze age CHG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    The Samara Culture existed much earlier than the bulk of the steppe migrations westwards and eastwards. By the time they happened, in the LCA and EBA, the Khvalynsk-related people had mixed extensively with Progress-related people (rich in CHG) and also in some parts with Sredny Stog-related people to form a more homogeneous Yamnaya-like cluster. I'm sure there was internal genetic structure with some having more EHG than others, but not dramatic differences as the ones that existed before in the LN or ECA.
    I believe the extra CHG in some regions of Italy is more easily explainable as the final outcome of the same thing that had already started before the steppe migrations in the Central-Eastern Mediterranean: the increase in CHG/Iranian-related ancestry, in a descending cline from east to west (probably arriving in most places already diluted with ANF and EEF), independently of any steppe migration. That's what explains e.g. the Minoans and the Sicilian Bell Beaker.
    the Khvalynsk had steppe ancestry admixed with a tad of Siberian ancestry, their Y DNA was R1b (probably pre-V88), R1a and Q1a (hence the tad Siberian)
    the people around the Dnjepr had steppe ancestry admixed with a tad of EEF, their Y DNA was pre-V88 R1b and I2a2a-L701

    the Yamna were R1b-Z2103, they had pure steppe ancestry, no Siberian, no EEF
    they were derived from R1b-P297, who were detected north since 9 ka, in the Samara and eastern Baltic area
    during the 6,2 ka cold spell, some R1b-M269 probably moved south into the steppe, they were the Repin people who arrived in the Don-Volga area ca 5,95 ka
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P297/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    The Samara Culture existed much earlier than the bulk of the steppe migrations westwards and eastwards. By the time they happened, in the LCA and EBA, the Khvalynsk-related people had mixed extensively with Progress-related people (rich in CHG) and also in some parts with Sredny Stog-related people to form a more homogeneous Yamnaya-like cluster. I'm sure there was internal genetic structure with some having more EHG than others, but not dramatic differences as the ones that existed before in the LN or ECA.

    I believe the extra CHG in some regions of Italy is more easily explainable as the final outcome of the same thing that had already started before the steppe migrations in the Central-Eastern Mediterranean: the increase in CHG/Iranian-related ancestry, in a descending cline from east to west (probably arriving in most places already diluted with ANF and EEF), independently of any steppe migration. That's what explains e.g. the Minoans and the Sicilian Bell Beaker.
    can you tell me more about these Progress-related people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Khvalynsk had steppe ancestry admixed with a tad of Siberian ancestry, their Y DNA was R1b (probably pre-V88), R1a and Q1a (hence the tad Siberian)
    the people around the Dnjepr had steppe ancestry admixed with a tad of EEF, their Y DNA was pre-V88 R1b and I2a2a-L701

    the Yamna were R1b-Z2103, they had pure steppe ancestry, no Siberian, no EEF
    they were derived from R1b-P297, who were detected north since 9 ka, in the Samara and eastern Baltic area
    during the 6,2 ka cold spell, some R1b-M269 probably moved south into the steppe, they were the Repin people who arrived in the Don-Volga area ca 5,95 ka
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P297/

    Yamnaya had EEF, on average around 14%.
    Do you know if R1b P297 in Kunda and Narva culture ( the eastern baltic R1b you mentioned) are ancestral to the Samara HG R1b? It would be quite interesting because Kunda and Narva were something like 75% WHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We have quite a few Bronze Age samples from those areas, and from Spain. I don't remember anyone getting good matches with them, although I just may have missed a post here and there.

    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_43,5.01,0.00,0.13, 0.00,45.31,32.18,0.00,0.00,3.09,1.44,12.35,0.48
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40 ,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0. 00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30 ,0.19
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00 ,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54 ,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
    NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00 ,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
    NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,4 0.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99

    BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,5 4.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95

    BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21 .76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
    IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52 .24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
    IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48 ,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
    BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47 ,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
    IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00, 61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49
    When you say 'I don't remember anyone getting good matches with them', did you mean forum members or Iron Age Italian samples? Anyway, my family gets a distance between 2 and 5 for NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78 and BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874 and generally good matches with all the AITI samples from Kleinaitingen (EBA Bavaria, contemporaneous to the Unetice culture to the east).

    As for Iron Age Italians, my closest match (R435 Latin from Praeneste) is also close to those AITI samples. EBA Bavaria is part of the Tumulus culture, which is ancestral to the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures, so it's not surprising to find a connection with Italics too.

    Distance to: R435__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Colombella
    4.63867438 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_43
    6.60470287 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    8.59178678 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
    Last edited by Maciamo; 29-01-20 at 14:00.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    When you say 'I don't remember anyone getting good matches with them', did you mean forum members or Iron Age Italian samples? Anyway, my family gets a distance between 2 and 5 for NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78 and BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874 and generally good matches with all the AITI samples from Kleinaitingen (EBA Bavaria, contemporaneous to the Unetice culture to the east).

    As for Iron Age Italians, my closest match (R435 Latin from Praeneste) is also close to those AITI samples. EBA Bavaria is part of the Tumulus culture, which is ancestral to the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures, so it's not surprising to find a connection with Italics too.

    Distance to: R435__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Colombella
    4.63867438 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_43
    6.60470287 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    8.59178678 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
    Sorry, I meant that I didn't remember other posters getting them, and certainly not British Bronze Age, at good fits. I get Bavaria BB, for example, but it's not a great match, much worse than Balkan Bronze Age. Torzio has since posted and he's at about a 7, if I remember correctly. No Piemontese or Lombards have posted, so I don't know if they'd do better.

    That prompted me to run Jovialis' whole list of Balkan samples, plus the Iberian Bronze, British Bronze, and German North Alpine Bronze for the more "northern" Italian Iron Age samples. I posted the following on the Iron Age thread.


    Did you include these, Jovialis? I ask because of a discussion I'm having with Ygorcs about whether there was a British Bronze Age or Iberian or North Alpine pull in these samples.


    Just for the heck of it I added them. (If some are post Iron Age, please let me know and I'll remove them.)

    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40 ,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0. 00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30 ,0.19
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00 ,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
    NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54 ,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
    NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00 ,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
    NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,4 0.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99
    CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239,0.00,0.00,2.63,2.34,44. 59,28.94,2.32,0.66,0.00,0.00,18.51,0.00
    IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496,5.38,0.21,0. 75,0.00,53.63,28.85,1.92,1.72,5.92,0.00,1.63,0.00
    CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243,8.87,0.00,2.93,4.86,36. 62,38.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.67,0.00
    ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977,2.96,0.00,2.41,0.00,5 2.45,25.53,0.60,0.00,3.19,0.00,12.86,0.00
    IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9,0.89,0.00,1.25,0.00,58.14,21. 43,0.49,0.00,4.69,0.00,11.18,1.93
    BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21 .76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
    IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52 .24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
    IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48 ,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
    BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47 ,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
    IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00, 61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49
    BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,5 4.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95
    Bavaria_BB_II5524,2.95,0.00,1.28,1.77,41.61,28.76, 0.00,0.00,3.52,0.00,20.12,0.00
    BronzeAgeEngland_I2462,8.52,1.12,1.18,0.00,45.45,3 3.73,0.00,0.00,2.08,0.00,6.90,1.02
    BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655,9.88,0.61,0.00,0.39,3 7.20,45.77,0.76,0.00,0.29,0.00,4.27,0.82
    NeolithicScotland_I2634,0.00,0.00,6.63,1.42,60.56, 11.65,0.00,0.21,7.56,0.00,11.96,0.00


    Same samples:

    R473 Etruscan
    Distance to: R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    5.23807216 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.33017053 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    7.88686249 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    8.15739542 I2111_Trypillia
    8.17621551 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.33299466 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    8.84239786 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    9.36587423 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.46015856 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.83392089 I3151_Trypillia
    10.07499380 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.18056482 I2110_Trypillia
    10.61650131 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.62080505 I1926_Trypillia
    10.62551175 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    10.84815192 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    11.21283639 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.59367931 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    12.06694245 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    12.55335015 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    12.55979299 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    13.34862165 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
    14.53531217 I2440_Globular_Amphora
    14.54483757 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


    Bavaria BB did show up, but at a further distance than the Balkan samples. Same for the Spanish samples which show up.

    R474 Etruscan...This one has good hits to the German BB and North Alpine samples
    Distance to: R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
    5.74122809 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    6.77580991 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    8.72072818 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    9.30280603 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    9.65161126 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.61332653 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.90744700 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    11.18787737 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    11.81452496 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    11.82549788 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    12.33373423 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    12.54336877 I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
    12.68957840 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    13.05530161 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.21538876 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
    14.00343886 I2111_Trypillia
    14.45190299 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
    14.92140074 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    15.52350798 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    15.70083756 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
    16.12808730 I3151_Trypillia
    16.32355047 BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
    16.50133328 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    16.56924561 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    17.55443819 BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874


    R1015 Etruscan-more Balkan Bronze Age heavy
    Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
    5.90466765 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.39762124 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.71334558 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    8.13312363 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.35159266 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    8.37548805 I2111_Trypillia
    8.72612743 I3151_Trypillia
    9.37365457 I2110_Trypillia
    9.64178925 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.76218725 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    9.95499874 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.42357424 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    10.52312216 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    10.70558733 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    10.72228520 I1926_Trypillia
    11.05433851 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    11.10513395 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.40769915 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.85190702 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    11.99557418 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
    12.39624540 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    13.15312510 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    14.56524631 ANI160_Varna_Outlier
    14.83928570 I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
    14.89781192 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


    R1016 Roman-the only upper class sample-again, closer to Bronze Age Balkans
    Distance to: R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    7.35068024 I3151_Trypillia
    8.76047373 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.09492716 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    9.45085710 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.68979876 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.22361971 I2110_Trypillia
    10.45816906 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    10.55012322 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    10.69418534 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.99995000 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    11.07581148 I2111_Trypillia
    11.10573726 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    11.18283506 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    11.73281296 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    11.86617040 I1926_Trypillia
    11.93298370 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    11.95698122 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    12.09002895 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
    12.25331384 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    12.57254549 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    13.06662925 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.48874716 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    14.70167337 ANI160_Varna_Outlier
    14.73282050 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    15.32862681 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


    Boville Ernica-Bavarian BB and a Spanish sample show up relatively early
    Distance to: R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
    6.69770856 I3151_Trypillia
    7.95362182 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    8.44269507 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.72555911 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    9.81126393 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.30931133 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    10.38576911 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.45481229 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    10.87415284 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    11.41484998 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.43899034 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    11.56217540 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    12.04413965 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    12.20604768 I2110_Trypillia
    12.28929209 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    12.79157535 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.04577326 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    13.36867982 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    13.42683879 I2111_Trypillia
    14.22975755 I1926_Trypillia
    14.38184967 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
    14.64225392 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    14.87163407 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    16.00559902 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
    16.21570535 IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320


    Distance to: R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
    7.12745396 I3151_Trypillia
    7.74215732 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    8.31362737 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    8.37911093 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    8.94475265 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    8.99763302 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.73866521 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    10.11018299 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    10.14648708 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    10.83610631 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    11.57587146 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    11.68067207 I2110_Trypillia
    11.81369967 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    12.75417971 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    12.96713538 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.14383886 I1926_Trypillia
    13.18246183 I2111_Trypillia
    13.56668346 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
    13.62619169 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    13.98647919 BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
    14.07380901 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    14.10845137 IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
    14.47627369 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
    14.57562692 IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
    14.86646226 I2440_Globular_Amphora


    Distance to: R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella
    2.14441134 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    6.60470287 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    6.79479212 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    6.97894691 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
    7.11525825 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
    8.59178678 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
    9.01150931 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
    9.15171569 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    9.40140947 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    9.51282292 BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
    9.63494162 IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
    10.53571070 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    11.23877217 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
    11.64855356 IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
    12.15553783 BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
    12.23966911 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.58203961 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    13.76760691 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
    13.82287597 IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496
    13.98864540 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
    14.33947349 I3151_Trypillia
    14.60477319 BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874
    14.91302116 I2111_Trypillia
    15.69331705 I2440_Globular_Amphora
    15.79126974 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


    From what I can see there's a mixture of Balkan Bronze Age on the one side, and North Alpine/German BB/French/Iberian Bronze Age on the other, so a sort of west/east continuum, with some samples leaning more one way than the other, but having hits to both.

    That makes sense to me given Italy's "Central Med" position geographically.

    However, I couldn't really make a determination as to whether Etruscans on average are more one than the other than the Latins. Now, whether that's because there were originally two streams into Italy from the north which then mixed, or because it was one mixed group originally and it was a matter of individual variation in not completely stable populations, I don't know.

    I had previously thought that perhaps the Etruscans had a more "western" origin, partly on the basis of data in Cassidy et al, but that doesn't appear in the data we have so far.



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    Ygorcs: Fair enough but I guess I am trying to reconcile Lazaradis et al (2016) "Genomic insights into the Origin of Farming in the ancient Near East" when the authors state early Bronze Age Steppe peoples had 43% CHG/Iranian Neolithic related ancestry. As those peoples moved Westward, they would have encountered other peoples already in the areas they migrated through so I am wondering with respect to the peoples who would bring in the Latin Language, how could they be modeled with respect to EEF, CHG/Iranian-related ancestry, EHG, WHG, etc. I don't think they were EHG exclusively like the Samara peoples who went to the Nothern Baltics, Scandinavia, etc and thus had some admixture with CHG. So I guess what you are suggesting is the only source of CHG and Iranian Neolithic ancestry in Italy is via the expansion of the Early European Farmers from Anatolia, and none entered via the Steppe?

    Thanks for the response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    can you tell me more about these Progress-related people?
    Basically my idea, considering the available aDNA samples, is that in the Eneolithic you had Sredny Stog-like in the west, Khvalynsk-like in the northeast and Progress-like in the southeast of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Progress-like people already had a lot of CHG (~40-50%) similar to the bulk of the Yamnaya, whereas it was pretty minor in Sredny Stog and significant but still minor in Khvalynsk. By the time of the Yamnaya and Corded Ware expansion, according to my own analysis (so take it with a grain of salt, of couse), the Yamnaya and Early CWC were mostly a mix of those 3 earlier populations in varying proportions (Early CWC seems to have had more Sredny Stog-like admixture, which might help explain the presence of R1a as opposed to R1b as the major haplogroup in that population). In my opinion Progress-like people expanded, mixed with Khvalynsk-like and eventually spread westwards (Late Khvalynsk/Early Repin), absorbing the Sredny Stog people of Ukraine.

    From the Neolithic to the EBA (Yamnaya), the main change in Ukraine involved the near disappearance of WHG and the huge increase in the CHG. These two things do not suggest to me an influence from the north or northwest (Baltic area), but rather an influence from the south (Caucasus Piedmont, Caspian coast).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Basically my idea, considering the available aDNA samples, is that in the Eneolithic you had Sredny Stog-like in the west, Khvalynsk-like in the northeast and Progress-like in the southeast of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Progress-like people already had a lot of CHG (~40-50%) similar to the bulk of the Yamnaya, whereas it was pretty minor in Sredny Stog and significant but still minor in Khvalynsk. By the time of the Yamnaya and Corded Ware expansion, according to my own analysis (so take it with a grain of salt, of couse), the Yamnaya and Early CWC were mostly a mix of those 3 earlier populations in varying proportions (Early CWC seems to have had more Sredny Stog-like admixture, which might help explain the presence of R1a as opposed to R1b as the major haplogroup in that population). In my opinion Progress-like people expanded, mixed with Khvalynsk-like and eventually spread westwards (Late Khvalynsk/Early Repin), absorbing the Sredny Stog people of Ukraine.

    From the Neolithic to the EBA (Yamnaya), the main change in Ukraine involved the near disappearance of WHG and the huge increase in the CHG. These two things do not suggest to me an influence from the north or northwest (Baltic area), but rather an influence from the south (Caucasus Piedmont, Caspian coast).
    Very persuasive, Ygorcs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Basically my idea, considering the available aDNA samples, is that in the Eneolithic you had Sredny Stog-like in the west, Khvalynsk-like in the northeast and Progress-like in the southeast of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Progress-like people already had a lot of CHG (~40-50%) similar to the bulk of the Yamnaya, whereas it was pretty minor in Sredny Stog and significant but still minor in Khvalynsk. By the time of the Yamnaya and Corded Ware expansion, according to my own analysis (so take it with a grain of salt, of couse), the Yamnaya and Early CWC were mostly a mix of those 3 earlier populations in varying proportions (Early CWC seems to have had more Sredny Stog-like admixture, which might help explain the presence of R1a as opposed to R1b as the major haplogroup in that population). In my opinion Progress-like people expanded, mixed with Khvalynsk-like and eventually spread westwards (Late Khvalynsk/Early Repin), absorbing the Sredny Stog people of Ukraine.

    From the Neolithic to the EBA (Yamnaya), the main change in Ukraine involved the near disappearance of WHG and the huge increase in the CHG. These two things do not suggest to me an influence from the north or northwest (Baltic area), but rather an influence from the south (Caucasus Piedmont, Caspian coast).
    now, I remember all of a sudden

    you refer to the samples found on the Porgress site as described in the Wang papre?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    R116 the "outlier" with high Steppe dated to 0-200 CE. Maybe he was a Gallic immigrant to Rome?:

    (this sample has the highest level of Steppe admixture out of all Imperial samples, so not "typical")

    His Y-DNA haplogroup: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

    K36 results:

    Arabian 0.67
    Armenian 0.63
    Basque 5.90
    Central_Euro 3.24
    East_Balkan 6.25
    East_Central_Euro 3.07
    East_Med 0.02
    Eastern_Euro 3.92
    Fennoscandian 4.08
    French 7.39
    Iberian 25.17
    Italian 16.47
    Near_Eastern 0.74
    North_Atlantic 7.52
    North_Sea 12.29
    Volga-Ural 1.36
    West_Med 1.29

    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

    Haven't been around for a long time, I come back and this interesting study takes my attention.

    The fact that we barely have any prior to 0 CE and that the authors mention this eastern influx into Romans as Iranian_Neolithic rather than CHG makes not only me wonder that the source of Latin Indo European might be really different. And goes hand in hand with my previous theory that the Steppes was the source for most European Indo European languages but not all.

    The most recent literature demonstrated significant impact of Caucasus-related ancestry in the Central European Late-Neolithic and Bronze-Age through the migrations of Yamnaya/Pontic-Steppe herders. Accordingly, our results confirm that Caucasus-related admixture via Yamnaya is present in Eastern and Central-Western European clusters (i.e. Continental Europe; Supplementary Table S8, Supplementary Information). However, among our Mediterranean groups, evidence of Yamnaya (and EHG) introgression seems to be present at a lesser extent and was detected mainly in Balkan-related groups (Supplementary Table S8, Supplementary Information), which in turn display traces of admixture with Eastern Europe (Fig. 4, Supplementary Fig. S2). In addition, outgroup-f3 values for Late Neolithic/Bronze Age samples (especially Yamnaya) appear lower in all our newly analysed Mediterranean populations (Supplementary Fig. S9). These results suggest that the genetic history of Southern Italian and Balkan populations may have been, at least in part, independent from that of Eastern and Central Europe, involving specific migratory events that carried Caucasian and Levantine genetic contributes along the Mediterranean shores (see Supplementary Information). This picture may bring important implications for our understanding of the cultural history of Europe, and in particular for the diffusion of Indo-European languages. The Steppe in the Early Bronze Age has been supported as a source of at least some Indo-European languages entering North-Central Europe at that time. In southern Mediterranean Europe, however, our results suggest lower impacts. Any significant Steppe/northern component may have arrived in the south Balkan mainland and southern Italy only later, by which time Indo-European languages of the Italic, Greek and various Balkan branches had already established themselves there. This would suggest that a Bronze Age Steppe source may be not highly consistent with all branches of the Indo-European family (see also Broushaki et al.).



    Summing it up, our analyses show that a Caucasus-related ancestry is observed in both Southern Italian and Southern Balkan populations. Nevertheless, these populations do not seem to reveal such significant evidence of Bronze-Age Yamanya-like introgressions, which have been interpreted as the most probable vectors of CHG-like ancestry in Central-Eastern and Northern Europe and were also linked with the demographic diffusion of some Indo-European languages. These results may suggest that Caucasus-related ancestry reached our Mediterranean populations through migratory events at least partly independent from those postulated for Central Europe, most likely through Anatolia. If so, the spread of Indo-European languages in Europe may be envisaged as a more complex multi-way phenomenon, rather than the one-way result of a single diffusion process.

    Also as Angela correctly pointed out that "tail" is called Levantine tail not Near Eastern per se. It represents Levant_Neo_BA type of ancestry during the very early stages of Rome. And I am not suprised to be honest we know that before Rome the Civilizations were based around the Near East and those people were probably something like pioneers bringing important goods and ideas into the Italian Peninsula. However the Iran_Neolithic genes seem to be more ancient. We already see allot of it during the late Neolithic but also a rise of it back again at Iron Age. EHG on the other hand appears more sporadic when Rome has been established, makes you wonder if those , with the vocabulary of Polako, were not "immigrant outliers" .

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    based on post # 808

    Distance to: Torziok12b
    7.89459942 Bavaria_BB_II5524
    8.87062568 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
    10.55301379 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
    13.52289540 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
    15.06901457 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
    15.97685201 NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
    17.33912339 BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874
    17.88934599 CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243
    18.57029887 BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
    19.37494258 ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
    20.13756440 NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2
    22.04581366 IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
    24.12289369 NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50
    24.25831198 BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
    24.66223834 IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
    25.34179354 BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655
    26.10284276 IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
    26.46820923 IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496
    28.42436631 BellBeakerFranceI1388
    31.73002994 IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136
    32.26507245 NeolithicScotland_I2634
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
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    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Imperial Rome based on 24 samples from Antonio et al:


    29.1 % J2a-M410 7
    20.8 % G2a2 5
    16.6 % J1a 4
    8.3 % R1b 2
    4.1 % J2b-M241 1
    4.1 % J2b-M205 1
    4.1 % T1a 1
    4.1 % R1a 1
    4.1 % R2a 1
    4.1 % E1b-v12 1
    J1a Doesn't look Semitic

    A surprise to see no J1c3 subclades since the Levant was pretty much Semitic by majority at that time.

    J1a, J2a2, J2b, R1b, R2a. In fact this looks more like How Anatolia-Iranian Plateau influence would have looked like.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    J1a Doesn't look Semitic

    A surprise to see no J1c3 subclades since the Levant was pretty much Semitic by majority at that time.

    J1a, J2a2, J2b, R1b, R2a. In fact this looks more like How Anatolia-Iranian Plateau influence would have looked like.
    Not everyone buried in Rome was a "local" or stayed and mixed their genes with locals. However, some obviously did, and indeed, going by yDna it doesn't look like a very big "Semitic" component. Anatolia/Iran is another story, whether directly or via Greece and its islands and settlements in Asia Minor or both.

    Also, for clarity, there are two Latin Iron Age samples with this kind of ancestry. R850 is Cretan like, and R437 has perhaps half of that kind of ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    However the Iran_Neolithic genes seem to be more ancient. We already see allot of it during the late Neolithic but also a rise of it back again at Iron Age. EHG on the other hand appears more sporadic when Rome has been established, makes you wonder if those , with the vocabulary of Polako, were not "immigrant outliers" .
    Are you saying that those North-West Med looking Latins are immigrants?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Cretan Greeks vs 647 ancient samples; top 100:

    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Cretan Greeks vs 647 ancient samples; top 100:

    Indeed, there's the proof that most of them were Crete like. The samples from the Greek Empuries samples in Spain also come out rather Crete like.

    I'm starting to think maybe the Greeks of the Classical Era were pretty much island Greek like, although of course we need ancient samples from the mainland in that period to really know for sure.

    I hope that the Reich Lab has some samples. It would be great if they included them for comparison to the Iron Age Southern Italians in their upcoming paper.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    A piece of Imperial R114 - R50 - R51, the Latin R437, ... all share a position in my 20th chromosome.
    Maybe there’s continuity to these days.





    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed, there's the proof that most of them were Crete like. The samples from the Greek Empuries samples in Spain also come out rather Crete like.

    I'm starting to think maybe the Greeks of the Classical Era were pretty much island Greek like, although of course we need ancient samples from the mainland in that period to really know for sure.

    I hope that the Reich Lab has some samples. It would be great if they included them for comparison to the Iron Age Southern Italians in their upcoming paper.
    Yep, it is unlikely that the Steppe admixture influx has stopped during the Bronze Age. I guess that the Classical Greeks had more Steppe than Mycenaeans, but less than the modern Greeks. But the Mycenaeans surprised us, so maybe perhaps also the Classical Greeks in some way.

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    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    In another position in the 20º chromosomes the Latin R850 and R437 (again), Roman Imperial R436, Villas and Palaces owners :) ,...


  23. #823
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    Salento's Avatar
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    Points: 65,555, Level: 79
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    R1 also has a chromosomal affinity with R114:




  24. #824
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    torzio's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - BY143483
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    R1 also has a chromosomal affinity with R114:



    interesting.............have you always had a lot of R1 ?

    mine below with legend under



    Pink = scythian-dalmatian

    red = various roman and gallo-roman

    blue = thuringian

    magenta = thraco-cimmerian

    light green = scythian

    dark green = sample R1




  25. #825
    Regular Member Achievements:
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    Salento's Avatar
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    Level
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    Points: 65,555, Level: 79
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 895
    Overall activity: 93.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    @Torzio post #823 shows the R1 Kit results, not mine.

    Posts #820 and #822 are my results.

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