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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    Salento: Just as you and Torzio did, I looked at my Chroma results from MyTrueAncestry and I am getting very, very, similar results. There is an option you can use that gives the closest modern populations to the ancient Samples used in the Antonio/Moots et al (2019) study. I, like, you came to the same conclusion, genetic continuity from Iron Age down to today. Some Romans cluster closer to Central/North Central Italy, Some Cluster South/South Central Italy.

    Chroma1.JPG




    For example, the first red color on Chromosome 1 is 591 SNPS related to Thracian I5769, R58, R1545, R59 and R131 and Central Roman CL36 Second Red color bar is 442 SNPs shares wiht R44, R49 and R969, R970, R52 and R41, respectively. The orange bar on Chromosome 1 is 128 SNPS with Ancient Greek I9005. With My True Ancestry, all of my chromosome Sharing for periods BC are Ancient Thracian and Ancient Greeks. For Chromosome 8, 105 SNPs with I0073, Chromosome 10, 115 SNPs with I9005 (first light orange segment) and 101 with I0070, Chromosome 13, 110 SNPs with Mycenaean I9006 and Chromosome 21, 102 with I0074.

    I have Caesar Level (can analyze up to 60 ancient samples) but this chroma tool very nice, I may have to upgrade to get more ancient samples analyzed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Salento: Just as you and Torzio did, I looked at my Chroma results from MyTrueAncestry and I am getting very, very, similar results. There is an option you can use that gives the closest modern populations to the ancient Samples used in the Antonio/Moots et al (2019) study. I, like, you came to the same conclusion, genetic continuity from Iron Age down to today. Some Romans cluster closer to Central/North Central Italy, Some Cluster South/South Central Italy.

    Chroma1.JPG




    For example, the first red color on Chromosome 1 is 591 SNPS related to Thracian I5769, R58, R1545, R59 and R131 and Central Roman CL36 Second Red color bar is 442 SNPs shares wiht R44, R49 and R969, R970, R52 and R41, respectively. The orange bar on Chromosome 1 is 128 SNPS with Ancient Greek I9005. With My True Ancestry, all of my chromosome Sharing for periods BC are Ancient Thracian and Ancient Greeks. For Chromosome 8, 105 SNPs with I0073, Chromosome 10, 115 SNPs with I9005 (first light orange segment) and 101 with I0070, Chromosome 13, 110 SNPs with Mycenaean I9006 and Chromosome 21, 102 with I0074.

    I have Caesar Level (can analyze up to 60 ancient samples) but this chroma tool very nice, I may have to upgrade to get more ancient samples analyzed.
    ... more of mine:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post597660
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Salento: That Chromosome of yours with 2127 shared SNPs has a great historical continuity through time. A place where Ancient Greece and Rome meet!!!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Salento: That Chromosome of yours with 2127 shared SNPs has a great historical continuity through time. A place where Ancient Greece and Rome meet!!!
    imho, It’s also possible that most of it, is a much older common shared ancestry,

    ... ‘cause they share the same segment.
    Last edited by Salento; 23-02-20 at 08:00.

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    Just letting you all know that apparently we're getting two papers, one with Iron Age Sicily samples and other with more Roman Era Italian samples like Samnites according to:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post648728

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post648734

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    Just letting you all know that apparently we're getting two papers, one with Iron Age Sicily samples and other with more Roman Era Italian samples like Samnites according to:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post648728

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post648734
    FYI

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...taly-over-time
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Cretan Greeks vs 647 ancient samples; top 100:

    Very close to a lot of Roman samples.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Very close to a lot of Roman samples.
    Here are the Imperial Roman samples that are similar to Greek Cretans, under a genetic distance of 5.0:



    R850 is one of them, so similar kind of people have been there since the Iron Age.

    They could be natives since that time, perhaps, rather than immigrants.

    What is clear however, is that people "south" of them disappear by the middle ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I was wrong about all the Imperial Roman samples coming from Isola Sacra near Ostia, although a good number do. They're actually from some necropoli around the city of Rome itself as well. So, not like future archaeologists excavating just in Flushing. It's like archaeologists excavating in New York City as a whole, or London.

    However, the burial contexts tell us nothing. There's no grave goods, no inscriptions, not even names from what I can see, and there's been disturbances at a lot of the sites.

    Interestingly enough, some of the samples come from the Catacombs of Peter and Paul. I have to check tomorrow and see if those are more "East Med", i.e. the samples south and east of modern Southern Italians. It would make sense. The first Christians, and the only Christians for a long time were Jews.

    In that regard, look what happens to the J1 in ancient Italy after the Imperial Era.


    Razib Khan continues to get it:
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...medium=twitter

    "A combination of the wars of the 6th-century, which are recorded to have depopulated much of Italy, and the overall decentering of Rome from the Mediterranean system after the ending of the Western Empire, probably resulted in the inevitable contraction of the Eternal City.Of course, Rome grew again over the centuries. But the new Romans were not the same Romans as those of the Roman Empire, who left few descendants. In addition to far off cosmopolitans, the bulk of the population was probably derived from northern Lazio and southern Tuscany. Rural people whose genetic makeup resembled the Iron Age Italians from whom they descended."
    So I1 came to Italy with Germanic tribes, Goths, as expected. Iron Age Italy very enriched with R1b just like today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    The irony of all this is that Albanians are not very "Illyrian" at all, so why you cling to it so much as the defining element of your ethnicity is beyond me. Holdovers from your Communist dictatorship's propaganda? There are northeastern Italians who are closer to the Illyrians than you are. Heck, even the Spaniards come out as "close" to the Illyrians. Did your ancestors travel all the way to Iberia as well? It's just similar mixtures of steppe and Neolithic, for crying out loud.
    They probably had regional differences.
    I don't believe southern Illyrians will be different from Thracians tbh. Not that it bothers me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    So I1 came to Italy with Germanic tribes, Goths, as expected. Iron Age Italy very enriched with R1b just like today.

    They probably had regional differences.
    I don't believe southern Illyrians will be different from Thracians tbh. Not that it bothers me.
    I think the Romans knew what they where naming areas in their republic and imperial times ............Epirus was split into 2 ...........the older southern one of modern Albania and a bit of NW greece and the newer north one of modern north Albania , called Epirus Nova ( New Epirus ) ....where the main Roman supply route ran from....modern Durres to modern Istanbul

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    So I1 came to Italy with Germanic tribes, Goths, as expected. Iron Age Italy very enriched with R1b just like today.

    They probably had regional differences.
    I don't believe southern Illyrians will be different from Thracians tbh. Not that it bothers me.
    It must be the Goths, who were much less of a folk migration for what that's worth, than the Langobardi, who are pretty uniformly U-106 so far, yes?

    I do value your objective analysis of all these matters, for what that's worth as well, and I deeply respect the Albanians for their sense of honor in doing what they could to help Italy in turn for Italy's help.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    EDIT
    ... wrong thread ... my bad

    Migrated to:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post600614
    Last edited by Salento; 06-04-20 at 01:58.

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    Marija Gimbutas
    Tursha are held to be the early Etruscans, whose central Balkan origin can be guessed on the basis of the curious correspondence of pottery types between early Etruscan Etruria and the Girla-Mare and Verbicioara group on the Danube in Balkan origin can be guessed on the basis of the curious correspondence of pottery types between early Etruscan Etruria and the Girla-Mare and Verbicioara group on the Danube in northeastern Yugoslavia and southwestern Rumania (as I was informed by Dr. Hencken).


    G. E. W. Wolstenholme, ‎Cecilia M. O'Connor - Medical Biology and Etruscan Origins
    In the example from Tarquinia the bull-bird is itself a vessel. The most striking parallel to the Tarquinian chariot is the one from the Glasinac in Bosnia (Seewald, 1939), though it is scarcely older than the one from Tarquinia and may be later (Fig. 10). Another bull-bird, but undated, comes from Hungary, and like the one from Tarquinia it is also a vessel, though it has no wheels


    G. E. W. Wolstenholme, ‎Cecilia M. O'Connor - Medical Biology and Etruscan Origins
    The urns that are most like Villanovan are the Dubovac-Zuto hrdo and Girla Mare urns found in the region where Hungary, Rumania and Jugoslavia come together (Berciu and Comsa, I9 56, Fig. 40; Wosinsky, 1904, Plates LXIX, XCI, XCVI; Zambotti, I9 54, Plates XIX, I10, I II; XXI, I28; Benac, I956—see also for references). These are placed in the Middle and Late Bronze Ages and hence are quite old enough to be the ancestors of the Villanovan urn.


    Etruscans came from the Balkans? They brought the Etruscan language from the Balkans to Italy. That is why one finds it's cousin, the Lemnian there.. The Late Bronze Age Collapse wiped out (and pushed, like the Armenians and Phrygians who came from the Balkans) the Etruroid and various other Balkan IE languages or reduced them to small pockets.

    The reason Balkan J2b2 was found in an Etruscan is because Etruscans came from the Balkans. The reason the sample was clustering autosomally with the Balkans is the same.

    These pre Bronze Age Collapse cultures in the Balkans. We do know they existed, we do not know what language they spoke, we know that in Iron Age, early History they spoke Illyran and Thracian but we also know the propagation of Illyrian and Thracian languages is related by many to some LBA and EIA cultures, mostly Hallstat/Urnfield..

    The question is the nature of the Etruscan. Is Etruscan the EEF language or did it arrive from the Anatolia? In the former case I suspect various E-V13 preserved the Etruscan in the Balkans (though various or majority spoke IE surely), and if Etruscan was not EEF than I believe it was most definitely brought by the J-L283.

    Rhaetic, cousin of Etruscan is considered as more distant to the Etruscan than Lemnian. Some G-L497 clades might be tied to
    Rhaetic (as could hypothetically some CE J-L283's). In fact we find on the Lemnos itself in Greek FTDNA Project we find a rare G-Y8903, negative to all subclades below.

    As far as genetic facts are concerned various E-V13 and J-L283 clades do have
    likely "Sea People" associations (Levant-Italian LBA-MBA links).

    Some of these Balkan MBA cultures are counted by many as "IE" speaking based on funerary traditions etc. but Etruscans had also IE influences and they spoke Etruscan.

    That's the interesting point was Etruscan EEF, it has no relation to Basque and apparently more people connect Basque to EEF's than to WHG's.

    Herodotus tells us Etruscans came from Anatolia. If that's true that favors the "South of Black Sea" J-L283 migratory route.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have rarely seen anything as confused as this in all my years here at Eupedia, and that's saying something.

    Just one little clue. We know what the Bronze and Iron Age Anatolians looked like genetically; we now know what the Etruscans looked like genetically. They are in a no man's land between Spaniards and northern Italians.

    ETRUSCANS DID NOT COME FROM ANATOLIA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Marija Gimbutas
    Tursha are held to be the early Etruscans, whose central Balkan origin can be guessed on the basis of the curious correspondence of pottery types between early Etruscan Etruria and the Girla-Mare and Verbicioara group on the Danube in Balkan origin can be guessed on the basis of the curious correspondence of pottery types between early Etruscan Etruria and the Girla-Mare and Verbicioara group on the Danube in northeastern Yugoslavia and southwestern Rumania (as I was informed by Dr. Hencken).


    G. E. W. Wolstenholme, ‎Cecilia M. O'Connor - Medical Biology and Etruscan Origins
    In the example from Tarquinia the bull-bird is itself a vessel. The most striking parallel to the Tarquinian chariot is the one from the Glasinac in Bosnia (Seewald, 1939), though it is scarcely older than the one from Tarquinia and may be later (Fig. 10). Another bull-bird, but undated, comes from Hungary, and like the one from Tarquinia it is also a vessel, though it has no wheels


    G. E. W. Wolstenholme, ‎Cecilia M. O'Connor - Medical Biology and Etruscan Origins
    The urns that are most like Villanovan are the Dubovac-Zuto hrdo and Girla Mare urns found in the region where Hungary, Rumania and Jugoslavia come together (Berciu and Comsa, I9 56, Fig. 40; Wosinsky, 1904, Plates LXIX, XCI, XCVI; Zambotti, I9 54, Plates XIX, I10, I II; XXI, I28; Benac, I956—see also for references). These are placed in the Middle and Late Bronze Ages and hence are quite old enough to be the ancestors of the Villanovan urn.


    Etruscans came from the Balkans? They brought the Etruscan language from the Balkans to Italy. That is why one finds it's cousin, the Lemnian there.. The Late Bronze Age Collapse wiped out (and pushed, like the Armenians and Phrygians who came from the Balkans) the Etruroid and various other Balkan IE languages or reduced them to small pockets.

    The reason Balkan J2b2 was found in an Etruscan is because Etruscans came from the Balkans. The reason the sample was clustering autosomally with the Balkans is the same.

    These pre Bronze Age Collapse cultures in the Balkans. We do know they existed, we do not know what language they spoke, we know that in Iron Age, early History they spoke Illyran and Thracian but we also know the propagation of Illyrian and Thracian languages is related by many to some LBA and EIA cultures, mostly Hallstat/Urnfield..

    The question is the nature of the Etruscan. Is Etruscan the EEF language or did it arrive from the Anatolia? In the former case I suspect various E-V13 preserved the Etruscan in the Balkans (though various or majority spoke IE surely), and if Etruscan was not EEF than I believe it was most definitely brought by the J-L283.

    Rhaetic, cousin of Etruscan is considered as more distant to the Etruscan than Lemnian. Some G-L497 clades might be tied to
    Rhaetic (as could hypothetically some CE J-L283's). In fact we find on the Lemnos itself in Greek FTDNA Project we find a rare G-Y8903, negative to all subclades below.

    As far as genetic facts are concerned various E-V13 and J-L283 clades do have
    likely "Sea People" associations (Levant-Italian LBA-MBA links).

    Some of these Balkan MBA cultures are counted by many as "IE" speaking based on funerary traditions etc. but Etruscans had also IE influences and they spoke Etruscan.

    That's the interesting point was Etruscan EEF, it has no relation to Basque and apparently more people connect Basque to EEF's than to WHG's.

    Herodotus tells us Etruscans came from Anatolia. If that's true that favors the "South of Black Sea" J-L283 migratory route.
    That G-Y8903 is not necessarily negative for all subclades below. He just tested Z6748-. You can check this in G-L497 Project in FTDNA; in the description of group 315.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Marija Gimbutas
    Tursha are held to be the early Etruscans, whose central Balkan origin can be guessed on the basis of the curious correspondence of pottery types between early Etruscan Etruria and the Girla-Mare and Verbicioara group on the Danube in Balkan origin can be guessed on the basis of the curious correspondence of pottery types between early Etruscan Etruria and the Girla-Mare and Verbicioara group on the Danube in northeastern Yugoslavia and southwestern Rumania (as I was informed by Dr. Hencken).


    G. E. W. Wolstenholme, ‎Cecilia M. O'Connor - Medical Biology and Etruscan Origins
    In the example from Tarquinia the bull-bird is itself a vessel. The most striking parallel to the Tarquinian chariot is the one from the Glasinac in Bosnia (Seewald, 1939), though it is scarcely older than the one from Tarquinia and may be later (Fig. 10). Another bull-bird, but undated, comes from Hungary, and like the one from Tarquinia it is also a vessel, though it has no wheels


    G. E. W. Wolstenholme, ‎Cecilia M. O'Connor - Medical Biology and Etruscan Origins
    The urns that are most like Villanovan are the Dubovac-Zuto hrdo and Girla Mare urns found in the region where Hungary, Rumania and Jugoslavia come together (Berciu and Comsa, I9 56, Fig. 40; Wosinsky, 1904, Plates LXIX, XCI, XCVI; Zambotti, I9 54, Plates XIX, I10, I II; XXI, I28; Benac, I956—see also for references). These are placed in the Middle and Late Bronze Ages and hence are quite old enough to be the ancestors of the Villanovan urn.


    Etruscans came from the Balkans? They brought the Etruscan language from the Balkans to Italy. That is why one finds it's cousin, the Lemnian there.. The Late Bronze Age Collapse wiped out (and pushed, like the Armenians and Phrygians who came from the Balkans) the Etruroid and various other Balkan IE languages or reduced them to small pockets.

    The reason Balkan J2b2 was found in an Etruscan is because Etruscans came from the Balkans. The reason the sample was clustering autosomally with the Balkans is the same.

    These pre Bronze Age Collapse cultures in the Balkans. We do know they existed, we do not know what language they spoke, we know that in Iron Age, early History they spoke Illyran and Thracian but we also know the propagation of Illyrian and Thracian languages is related by many to some LBA and EIA cultures, mostly Hallstat/Urnfield..

    The question is the nature of the Etruscan. Is Etruscan the EEF language or did it arrive from the Anatolia? In the former case I suspect various E-V13 preserved the Etruscan in the Balkans (though various or majority spoke IE surely), and if Etruscan was not EEF than I believe it was most definitely brought by the J-L283.

    Rhaetic, cousin of Etruscan is considered as more distant to the Etruscan than Lemnian. Some G-L497 clades might be tied to
    Rhaetic (as could hypothetically some CE J-L283's). In fact we find on the Lemnos itself in Greek FTDNA Project we find a rare G-Y8903, negative to all subclades below.

    As far as genetic facts are concerned various E-V13 and J-L283 clades do have
    likely "Sea People" associations (Levant-Italian LBA-MBA links).

    Some of these Balkan MBA cultures are counted by many as "IE" speaking based on funerary traditions etc. but Etruscans had also IE influences and they spoke Etruscan.

    That's the interesting point was Etruscan EEF, it has no relation to Basque and apparently more people connect Basque to EEF's than to WHG's.

    Herodotus tells us Etruscans came from Anatolia. If that's true that favors the "South of Black Sea" J-L283 migratory route.
    The only associated in Lemnian to Etruscan is that Etruscan traders used the island as a stop over and carve the tablet...........Lemnian is over 400 years younger then what was already spoken in Etruscan lands.

    If you believe Etruscan and Rhaetian are similar , then you must believe that Centum and Satem language being the same............if you do not, then they are not linked.
    Rhaetian is linked firstly with magre language and then venetic circa 600BC ......there was no Rhaetian language before this date

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post


    Etruscans came from the Balkans? They brought the Etruscan language from the Balkans to Italy. That is why one finds it's cousin, the Lemnian there.. The Late Bronze Age Collapse wiped out (and pushed, like the Armenians and Phrygians who came from the Balkans) the Etruroid and various other Balkan IE languages or reduced them to small pockets.

    The reason Balkan J2b2 was found in an Etruscan is because Etruscans came from the Balkans. The reason the sample was clustering autosomally with the Balkans is the same.

    These pre Bronze Age Collapse cultures in the Balkans. We do know they existed, we do not know what language they spoke, we know that in Iron Age, early History they spoke Illyran and Thracian but we also know the propagation of Illyrian and Thracian languages is related by many to some LBA and EIA cultures, mostly Hallstat/Urnfield..

    The question is the nature of the Etruscan. Is Etruscan the EEF language or did it arrive from the Anatolia? In the former case I suspect various E-V13 preserved the Etruscan in the Balkans (though various or majority spoke IE surely), and if Etruscan was not EEF than I believe it was most definitely brought by the J-L283.

    Rhaetic, cousin of Etruscan is considered as more distant to the Etruscan than Lemnian. Some G-L497 clades might be tied to
    Rhaetic (as could hypothetically some CE J-L283's). In fact we find on the Lemnos itself in Greek FTDNA Project we find a rare G-Y8903, negative to all subclades below.

    As far as genetic facts are concerned various E-V13 and J-L283 clades do have
    likely "Sea People" associations (Levant-Italian LBA-MBA links).

    Some of these Balkan MBA cultures are counted by many as "IE" speaking based on funerary traditions etc. but Etruscans had also IE influences and they spoke Etruscan.

    That's the interesting point was Etruscan EEF, it has no relation to Basque and apparently more people connect Basque to EEF's than to WHG's.

    Herodotus tells us Etruscans came from Anatolia. If that's true that favors the "South of Black Sea" J-L283 migratory route.

    This post of yours shows that your knowledge of the Etruscans to be extremely poor. Which I always find quite incredible. I would never dream of talking about Bosnian cuisine, of which I know little or nothing, or Serbian poetry, of which I ignore anything. You're mixing subjects already solved by Etruscology with others that you obviously only interpret as you like. Everyone talks about Etruscans but no one has studied Etruscology. And this is also your case.

    Today there is consensus that the Etruscan language is pre-Indo-European and not related in any way to the Anatolian languages of the late Bronze and Iron Age which are Indo-European.
    Just as there is no evidence that the Basque language was the only pre-Indo-European language spoken in Europe.


    Let's forget about your real goal, I'm not surprised by anything now, since there are various foreign nationalisms that have been desperately trying for years to use the question of the Etruscans' origins to support the less plausible theses, and we see it every day this systematic campaign of disinformation against the Etruscans.

    Still make laugh the attempts of Slovenian and Russian scholars to argue that the Etruscans are proto-Slavic, attempts that are no less pathetic than those of the many amateur scholars who propose in 2020 the theory of Herodotus that is no longer believed reliable by Etruscologists for many decades now.

    Yes, Rhaetic, related to the Etruscan, is considered as more distant to the Etruscan than Lemnian, but you forget to mention that Lemnian is attested later than Etruscan and many scholars consider Lemnian derived from the Etruscan. Although the question remains open, given the lack of inscriptions of the many pre-Indo-European languages that have disappeared without leaving any documentation, the island of Lemnos was part of the Greek world, certainly not of the Balkan world nor of the Iron Age Anatolia.
    The man in Lemnos' stele is thought to be a Greek from Ionia, a Phocaean, and we know that the Etruscans had long relationships, particularly the areas of southern Etruria that show an affinity with some aspects of the alphabet used in Lemnos, typical of Italy and Greece and not Anatolia, and that they hosted several Greeks from Ionia who escaped the Persian conquest of Anatolia.

    The Etruscans were so Balkan that they were in fact closer to the modern Iberians, the modern North Italians, the Latins than to the modern Balkan people. J2b2-L283 found in one Etruscan is too little to draw conclusions and anyway it was found in the Nuragics as well.
    And the relations between Etruscans and Nuragics during the period of formation of the Etruscans are very attested and the necropolis of Mattonara in Civitavecchia, modern Lazio, where 3 out of 4 Etruscan samples come from, is precisely the necropolis of an Etruscan port that had relations with Sardinia.

    It is undeniable that there were movements from the Balkans to Italy in the Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age. But Etruscan history is a fascinating but also very complex subject, as well as the birth of the Iron Age ethnicities, and they both deserve a much more serious approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    That G-Y8903 is not necessarily negative for all subclades below. He just tested Z6748-. You can check this in G-L497 Project in FTDNA; in the description of group 315.
    Indeed and as this Greek lacks dys446=17, dys450=7 (very slow/reliable STR) which define the BY27899 he is almost 100 % BY27899- as well. That makes him still 4000 years distant from his Rhaetic (?) relatives. Also at FTDNA at Lemnos there is some other G2a, I think it's one of Neolithic clades.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    This post of yours shows that your knowledge of the Etruscans to be extremely poor.


    Let's forget about your real goal, I'm not surprised by anything now, since there are various foreign nationalisms that have been desperately trying for years to use the question of the Etruscans' origins to support the less plausible theses, and we see it every day this systematic campaign of disinformation against the Etruscans.
    I admit my knowledge of the Etruscans is not great, but I was going through one Balkan culture, namely Girla Mare and found out that the proto-Etruscan urn was derived of this culture.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Still make laugh the attempts of Slovenian and Russian scholars to argue that the Etruscans are proto-Slavic, attempts that are no less pathetic than those of the many amateur scholars who propose in 2020 the theory of Herodotus that is no longer believed reliable by Etruscologists for many decades now.

    Herodotus was a contemporary of the Etruscans. I quoted Gimbutas, she claimed Etruscans came from the Balkans based on some archaeological evidence. Lets check the only Etruscan Y-DNA: surprise, surprise it came from the Balkans.
    Aren't you engaging here in a bit of Protochronism yourself ("I'm Italian, Etruscans were from Italy so Etruscans must have been in Italy 1000 BC, 2000 BC, 3000 BC..").


    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Yes, Rhaetic, related to the Etruscan, is considered as more distant to the Etruscan than Lemnian, but you forget to mention that Lemnian is attested later than Etruscan and many scholars consider Lemnian derived from the Etruscan.
    Indeed but it's not any done deal that Lemnian had some recent link with the Etruscan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Although the question remains open, given the lack of inscriptions of the many pre-Indo-European languages that have disappeared without leaving any documentation, the island of Lemnos was part of the Greek world, certainly not of the Balkan world nor of the Iron Age Anatolia. The man in Lemnos' stele is thought to be a Greek from Ionia, a Phocaean, and we know that the Etruscans had long relationships, particularly the areas of southern Etruria that show an affinity with some aspects of the alphabet used in Lemnos, typical of Italy and Greece and not Anatolia, and that they hosted several Greeks from Ionia who escaped the Persian conquest of Anatolia.
    From what I've read archaeologically they looked Mycenaean, we know the history of Lemnos. Pelasgians of Lemnos spoke "Pelasgian language".

    Christopher Smith - The Etruscans: A Very Short Introduction
    A number of Etruscan cities claimed descent from the Pelasgians, including Cerveteri and Tarquinia.


    Peter Derow, ‎Robert Parker, ‎Wykeham
    In some representations Pelasgians had lived in Lemnos, Pelasgians had settled in Etruria, and the Pelasgians were identified with the Tyrrhenians (Etruscans) of Lemnos. Two late archaic inscriptions from Lemnos in a native language which has affinities with Etruscan.


    Athenians lived on the Acropolis and the Pelasgians near the Hymettus, but the Athenians expelled the Pelasgians, who settled on Lemnos.


    These facts and existence of Lemnian on Lemnos clearly point that these were not some "Etruscan traders".


    Fact: E-V13 is a Neolithic haplogroup, and currently by all available evidence it's origins are traced to Dalmatian Cetina culture (as E-M35 FTDNA admin proposed), nearby there is early Cardial E-L618+ find, also E-L618, V13- is found in Albanians. Clades that are mostly Western Balkan such as E-Y37092 show strong resemblance to Cetina culture with 3 clades separated from each other 4200 years ago, practically next to each other!! Vasojevići, E.Montenegro, Rajovići E-Montenegro origin, Albanian Dushmani very near in Shkoder area.. Furthermore E-BY14150 is found in Macedonia. Also distant Greek (Cetina did have outposts in Peloponnese etc.). All this implies this Early E-V13 clade is indeed Cetina trace (as already suggested by FTDNA admin) especially as it is almost non-existent in the Eastern Balkans where V13 is also diverse. This clade implies what originally the E-V13 were even if parallel clades under E-CTS1273 show a different picture.


    I. Marovic – B. Covic: Cetina culture:
    Cetina culture emerged early in the early Bronze Age on the eneolite substrate (Adriatic culture); its people belonged to the old Mediterranean population, which was partially Indoeuropeanized but was not Indo-European.

    These were people who took up various IE traditions but they were largely not IE genetically. As is suggested if their main component was Adriatic it should have been logically E-L618.


    Not only that: the cultures to which Gimbutas connects the Villanovan urns (Vattina-Girla Mare) were almost certainly heavy with E-V13. And Viminatium A-DNA results will soon show the dominance of E-V13 in that area in 0-300 AD.


    Evidence suggests Lemnian is not recent migrant. If Etruscan was EEF then E-V13 branches likely preserved Lemnian alongside some G-L497 (like the one found in Lemnos). You would expect a robust genetic group to be the group which "carries" a language.


    E-V13 is almost certainly through some clades (such as 2 clades found in Druze that are 3800 years away from each other and have MBA/LBA connection to others) connected to Philistines and Philistines were connected to "Pelasgians", although they themselves most likely spoke some IE language. Still I believe autosomal results of Philistine finds showed that their European component was generally EEF dominated (as were most Balkan populations at the time).


    I do think some groups still might have spoken Etruroid. E-V13 clades that might have something to do with the Etruscans are very rare though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The Etruscans were so Balkan that they were in fact closer to the modern Iberians, the modern North Italians, the Latins than to the modern Balkan people.

    J-L283>Y15058 find in Veliki Vanik Croatia (3600 ybp) is also clustering with the Modern Italians. Besides Modern North Italians and Iberians have Germanic, Celtic and other influences.


    J-CTS6190 Etruscan and J-Y15058 Dalmatian were closely phylogenetically related. That is a fact. And from what I've heard they were autosomally related though I did not go into details.




    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    J2b2-L283 found in one Etruscan is too little to draw conclusions and anyway it was found in the Nuragics as well. And the relations between Etruscans and Nuragics during the period of formation of the Etruscans are very attested and the necropolis of Mattonara in Civitavecchia, modern Lazio, where 3 out of 4 Etruscan samples come from, is precisely the necropolis of an Etruscan port that had relations with Sardinia.
    It is possible though J-L283 in Nuragics proved to be a separate clade 5400 years away from the Etruscan J-L283.

    Yes and there is this Etruscan as Anatolian IE theory as well.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 08-04-20 at 17:01.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Indeed and as this Greek lacks dys446=17, dys450=7 (very slow/reliable STR) which define the BY27899 he is almost 100 % BY27899- as well. That makes him still 4000 years distant from his Rhaetic (?) relatives. Also at FTDNA at Lemnos there is some other G2a, I think it's one of Neolithic clades.
    Sorry. Not sure why you'd think that, but no, these are not oddities at G-BY27899 level. At all. The DYS446 naturally varies, and most of the confirmed G-BY27899 men have DYS450=8 (not 7), as the Greek. Currently you find the confirmed and predicted G-BY27899 men from group 333 to 344 in that Project.
    So yes, it's certainly possible he belongs to an existant G-FGC477 branch, and G-BY27899 is one of them - plus G-BY180574, G-Z6748 (defined by many SNPs/equivalents; and he's just Z6748-) and G-CTS3664 (likely defined by many as well, and it could actually be below another existant one; we just don't know yet). There's also a little chance he belongs to a new one, but we cannot know it without further SNP tests.

    Finally, as a side note, I'd say that it's not how it works anyway. STR markers may provide important clues, but they must be seen in a context, and the likelihood of a basal branch goes beyond isolated STR oddities. Of course, certain isolated and relevant oddities may characterize also unknown subclades of existant clades, but we cannot do a precise link without more "reference men/results". I myself get an "odd" result for a marker with very low mutation rate. What if I knew I'm only G-L497 (without further testing)? Would this STR result in isolation evidence a new basal G-L497 branch? Not at all!

    But that's an interesting result anyway, being the guy from Greece - relatively far from G-L497 hotspots in diversity and frequency. It'd be great if that guy tested further.

    Current Chart:
    https://d3tije9h5o4l4c.cloudfront.ne...photos/3466876

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have rarely seen anything as confused as this in all my years here at Eupedia, and that's saying something.
    How about someone gives rebuttal of Gimbutas from an archaeological POV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    They are in a no man's land between Spaniards and northern Italians.
    So is the Dalmatian Veliki Vanik find closely related to the only Etruscan by Y-DNA. The thing is this sample was from 3600 years ago, long before any Gaul/Celtic and Germanic influences that these modern populations received.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ETRUSCANS DID NOT COME FROM ANATOLIA.
    I never said this was a likely option. It's certainly impossible if Etruscan is an EEF language.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Honestly, it's like debating with someone from the "Flat Earth Society".

    There are way too many nationalistic, agenda obsessed crazies interested in this topic. Most of them have some pride, and don't want to make themselves more ridiculous, so they've gone quiet on this subject.

    Some haven't.

    I have some news to impart: genetics trumps ancient accounts of legends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Sorry. Not sure why you'd think that, but no, these are not oddities at G-BY27899 level. At all. The DYS446 naturally varies, and most of the confirmed G-BY27899 men have DYS450=8 (not 7), as the Greek. Currently you find the confirmed and predicted G-BY27899 men from group 333 to 344 in that Project.
    So yes, it's certainly possible he belongs to an existant G-FGC477 branch, and G-BY27899 is one of them - plus G-BY180574, G-Z6748 (defined by many SNPs/equivalents; and he's just Z6748-) and G-CTS3664 (likely defined by many as well). There's also a little chance he belongs to a new one, but we cannot know it without further SNP tests.

    Finally, as a side note, I'd say that ot's not how it works anyway. STR markers must be seen in a context, and the likelihood of a basal branch goes beyond isolated STR oddities. Of course, certain isolated and relevant oddities may characterize also unknown subclades of existant clades, but we cannot do the link without more "reference men". I myself get an "odd" result for a marker with very low mutation rate. What if I knew I'm only G-L497 (without further testing)? Would this STR result in isolation evidence a new basal G-L497 branch? Not at all!

    But that's an interesting result anyway, being the guy from Greece - relatively far from G-L497 hotspots in diversity and frequency. It'd be great if that guy tested further.
    Indeed, you are correct, I was looking at YFull info, it seems overthere G-BY113517 don't have a reading on dys450, and at FTDNA the only 450=7 are G-BY113713. So it seems YFull's picture is incorrect. As if they count the Swedish result to have dys450=7 too, though he has 8.

    I remember seeing this haplotype quite a while ago and my first association were the Lemnians. I don't think he looks particularly similar to anyone.
    I agree that STR's must be viewed in context, one has to look at those that define the earliest clades, and ensure the downstream haplotypes also share them in addition to some identifiable downstream SNP's/STR's. The prediction should be reliable provided important mutations are reflected on Y111, and there is no guarantee of that, some clades are more lucky than the others in that regard.

    His dys481 seems like a possible indication for Z45474- (481=22 X). Yes his BigY would be very useful. Unfortunately FTDNA SNP Packs seem pretty outdated compared to what is offered at YSEQ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Indeed, you are correct, I was looking at YFull info, it seems overthere G-BY113517 don't have a reading on dys450, and at FTDNA the only 450=7 are G-BY113713. So it seems YFull's picture is incorrect. As if they count the Swedish result to have dys450=7 too, though he has 8.

    I remember seeing this haplotype quite a while ago and my first association were the Lemnians. I don't think he looks particularly similar to anyone.
    I agree that STR's must be viewed in context, one has to look at those that define the earliest clades, and ensure the downstream haplotypes also share them in addition to some identifiable downstream SNP's/STR's. The prediction should be reliable provided important mutations are reflected on Y111, and there is no guarantee of that, some clades are more lucky than the others in that regard.

    His dys481 seems like a possible indication for Z45474- (481=22 X). Yes his BigY would be very useful. Unfortunately FTDNA SNP Packs seem pretty outdated compared to what is offered at YSEQ.
    The SNP Pack is indeed outdated. More than one year old. Many BigYs were performed in 2019.

    Actually DYS481 varies significantly. Its mutation rate is not "that" low. Indeed, there're G-Z45474 men also with DYS481=21 anyway, as the Greek.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Indeed and as this Greek lacks dys446=17, dys450=7 (very slow/reliable STR) which define the BY27899 he is almost 100 % BY27899- as well. That makes him still 4000 years distant from his Rhaetic (?) relatives. Also at FTDNA at Lemnos there is some other G2a, I think it's one of Neolithic clades.




    I admit my knowledge of the Etruscans is not great, but I was going through one Balkan culture, namely Girla Mare and found out that the proto-Etruscan urn was derived of this culture.





    Herodotus was a contemporary of the Etruscans. I quoted Gimbutas, she claimed Etruscans came from the Balkans based on some archaeological evidence. Lets check the only Etruscan Y-DNA: surprise, surprise it came from the Balkans.
    Aren't you engaging here in a bit of Protochronism yourself ("I'm Italian, Etruscans were from Italy so Etruscans must have been in Italy 1000 BC, 2000 BC, 3000 BC..").




    Indeed but it's not any done deal that Lemnian had some recent link with the Etruscan.




    From what I've read archaeologically they looked Mycenaean, we know the history of Lemnos. Pelasgians of Lemnos spoke "Pelasgian language".

    Christopher Smith - The Etruscans: A Very Short Introduction
    A number of Etruscan cities claimed descent from the Pelasgians, including Cerveteri and Tarquinia.


    Peter Derow, ‎Robert Parker, ‎Wykeham
    In some representations Pelasgians had lived in Lemnos, Pelasgians had settled in Etruria, and the Pelasgians were identified with the Tyrrhenians (Etruscans) of Lemnos. Two late archaic inscriptions from Lemnos in a native language which has affinities with Etruscan.


    Athenians lived on the Acropolis and the Pelasgians near the Hymettus, but the Athenians expelled the Pelasgians, who settled on Lemnos.


    These facts and existence of Lemnian on Lemnos clearly point that these were not some "Etruscan traders".


    Fact: E-V13 is a Neolithic haplogroup, and currently by all available evidence it's origins are traced to Dalmatian Cetina culture (as E-M35 FTDNA admin proposed), nearby there is early Cardial E-L618+ find, also E-L618, V13- is found in Albanians. Clades that are mostly Western Balkan such as E-Y37092 show strong resemblance to Cetina culture with 3 clades separated from each other 4200 years ago, practically next to each other!! Vasojevići, E.Montenegro, Rajovići E-Montenegro origin, Albanian Dushmani very near in Shkoder area.. Furthermore E-BY14150 is found in Macedonia. Also distant Greek (Cetina did have outposts in Peloponnese etc.). All this implies this Early E-V13 clade is indeed Cetina trace (as already suggested by FTDNA admin) especially as it is almost non-existent in the Eastern Balkans where V13 is also diverse. This clade implies what originally the E-V13 were even if parallel clades under E-CTS1273 show a different picture.


    I. Marovic – B. Covic: Cetina culture:
    Cetina culture emerged early in the early Bronze Age on the eneolite substrate (Adriatic culture); its people belonged to the old Mediterranean population, which was partially Indoeuropeanized but was not Indo-European.

    These were people who took up various IE traditions but they were largely not IE genetically. As is suggested if their main component was Adriatic it should have been logically E-L618.


    Not only that: the cultures to which Gimbutas connects the Villanovan urns (Vattina-Girla Mare) were almost certainly heavy with E-V13. And Viminatium A-DNA results will soon show the dominance of E-V13 in that area in 0-300 AD.


    Evidence suggests Lemnian is not recent migrant. If Etruscan was EEF then E-V13 branches likely preserved Lemnian alongside some G-L497 (like the one found in Lemnos). You would expect a robust genetic group to be the group which "carries" a language.


    E-V13 is almost certainly through some clades (such as 2 clades found in Druze that are 3800 years away from each other and have MBA/LBA connection to others) connected to Philistines and Philistines were connected to "Pelasgians", although they themselves most likely spoke some IE language. Still I believe autosomal results of Philistine finds showed that their European component was generally EEF dominated (as were most Balkan populations at the time).


    I do think some groups still might have spoken Etruroid. E-V13 clades that might have something to do with the Etruscans are very rare though.





    J-L283>Y15058 find in Veliki Vanik Croatia (3600 ybp) is also clustering with the Modern Italians. Besides Modern North Italians and Iberians have Germanic, Celtic and other influences.


    J-CTS6190 Etruscan and J-Y15058 Dalmatian were closely phylogenetically related. That is a fact. And from what I've heard they were autosomally related though I did not go into details.






    It is possible though J-L283 in Nuragics proved to be a separate clade 5400 years away from the Etruscan J-L283.

    Yes and there is this Etruscan as Anatolian IE theory as well.

    Raetic script and other north italian ones

    https://www.univie.ac.at/raetica/wiki/Script#Map




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    Country: United States





    I knew the modeling for this paper was kind of bizarre. Moroccan Hunter-Gatherer ancestry in Copper Age and Bronze Age Northern Europe, and Iron Age Ukraine?

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