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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    This paper has become relevant to me because I found out that one of my great grandfathers was J2a-L70. To my knowledge, the earliest sample of L70 was found in this paper, in late antiquity Rome. I was told as a child that we might have a little Italian ancestry. Many years later, out of the blue, a relative contacted me and shared his genetic tests, including his Y DNA result, and told me a story about an Italian connection.

    The oral history is anecdotal, and unfortunately our L70 subclade is unknown, but the result is an interesting bit of evidence. There are two Greeks with L70 in YFull, and two in an unpublished Stanford study. It looks from the map like the haplogroup may have made its way from the Middle East to Anatolia then the Balkans, Italy and other parts of Europe. It’s “parent,” L25 was also found in the Stanford study, apparently. In this paper the “grandparent” L26 was found in Imperial Rome.
    6FAC724A-D9EE-45C8-A8DA-8A945135E1B5.jpg9327E67A-014D-4D21-B03C-906E3E9C69A2.jpg228A5EC6-42EC-4492-81C4-39CE99AB2C26.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I'll answer your question by sending you a PM since I don't want to derail this thread.
    Sure, thanks for the response.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Maybe we should not consider the roman as a concept of nation, only a concept of law and politics. Classical city-state civilization has highly floating population, if I remember correctly, the dynasty of Tarquinius was established by an 'Etruscan' whose father was from Corinth Greece, the epoch control by Latins is only a part of the whole roman civilization.After all, in the time of Tacitus(AD55-AD120), he said the senators were basically sons of knights and freed slaves (indicating a foreign source), and hardly found a few local families.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario View Post
    Maybe we should not consider the roman as a concept of nation, only a concept of law and politics. Classical city-state civilization has highly floating population, if I remember correctly, the dynasty of Tarquinius was established by an 'Etruscan' whose father was from Corinth Greece, the epoch control by Latins is only a part of the whole roman civilization.After all, in the time of Tacitus(AD55-AD120), he said the senators were basically sons of knights and freed slaves (indicating a foreign source), and hardly found a few local families.
    Perhaps than, you should read the paper of which this thread is about. Because the Imperial era's foreign sources are shown to not have had any significant impact in the subsequent eras. The following era was defined by deep demographic shifts; which says so explicitly in the paper. Meaning, native Italians from the hinterlands had reclaimed the cities. Frankly, I am getting fed up with this canard, especially after it has been refuted by genetics.

    Rome was an empire, established by the Italic tribe, the Latini. The Etruscans, Greeks, Celts, Illyrians and other Italics were incorporated into Rome. Of course there isn't a monolithic ethnic group, this is elementary.

    The greatest shift probably came when newly incorporated Greeks from the south, who we know are high in CHG, mixed with the Italic population. The Latins and Etruscans we have DNA for cluster with Northern Italians, who were already intermediate between central Europeans, and other southern Europeans. This is evident in the genetic profile of medieval Central Italians.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 14-02-21 at 18:25.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here is the section:

    Late Antiquity and the fall of Rome


    Late Antiquity was characterized by deep demographic changes and political reorganization, including the split of the Roman Empire into eastern and western halves, the movement of the capital from Rome to Byzantium (later Constantinople), and the gradual dissolution of the Western Roman Empire (maps in Fig. 3, C and D) (1, 3).
    Last edited by Jovialis; 15-02-21 at 18:03.

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    Yes, well the foreign contingent shifted to Constantinople along with the Emperor and governing body. Italia and Roma lost their importance, and the immigrants moved on and other people from the north moved in.

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    I just posted this on the Calabrian thread. For those not reading it:

    "I agree with you except for the fact that Modern Iranians and Caucasians do indeed have a lot of Iran Neo ancestry, along with Anatolian farmer. The gene flow went both ways. The fact is that a wave of that ancestry spread into Anatolia and mixed with the Anatolian farmers living there. Perhaps through Anatolians it spread south into the Levant, eventually even reaching North Africa. It definitely spread into the Central and Western Mediterranean, again, as I've said over and over again, as an admixed group. There is absolutely no evidence from history of a movement to Italy or Greece, for that matter, from the Caucasus itself.

    In terms of Italy in, say, the Bronze and Iron Age, I'm not sure if all of it came via the Greeks or if some of it came directly from Anatolia itself. (It certainly didn't go to Etruria, as the Etruscans clearly came from Central Europe, which 90% of the internet said was fantasy when I and a few others insisted on it here and on anthrogenica; one of the many things they and eurogenes got wrong about Southern Europe.) In isolated places like southern and southwestern Sardinia in the Iron Age, some of it may have come with Phoenicians. Perhaps a bit arrived in the same way in Northwestern Sicily. The rest of Sicily and the mainland are different.

    The Moots paper, other than providing the ancient samples, tends to confuse rather than clarify the issue of what happened in Imperial Age. Once we get Southern Italian samples and Greek samples from the Iron Age, we'll know better how much Iran Neo/CHG, for example, arrived in Italy with the Greeks and then could have very likely moved northward.

    The problem with Moots is that it assumes every single burial sample is a long term resident of Rome, i.e. Roman or at least Italian. That's manifestly a simplification. Not every person who "looks" like a Levantine or even an Anatolian on a PCA would have become a long time settler whose progeny contributed to the local genomes. We can see that with some of the samples from the post Imperial period whom we've analyzed and who are manifestly northern European visitors to Rome. Had they done some isotopic testing we might have a clearer idea of who was "local" and who was not. Added to all this, in the period in question, some Romans still practiced cremation, so the sample is not representative.

    Then, there's the question of the big demographic change even earlier than the end of the Empire. Rome was gradually abandoned as the seat of Empire. Everything shifted either to Constantinople or to Northern Italy. That's why the "tail to the east" ended. The traders left.

    There is indeed also the period of the Germanic invasions. The problem with attributing much of the change to them, the popular back to the beginning scenario particularly in the north, is that every Germanic invader sample we've found is either I1 or R1b-U106. I can't believe that a paper purporting to deal with Italian genetics totally ignored yDna. The one thing yDna is really good for is tracking migrations. There's far too little of either I1 or U106, even in the Veneto, much less in Lazio, to account for a change from people with almost no steppe to people with 25-30% steppe. It doesn't matter how small the "native" population might have been due to plague, invasion, the Gothic Wars etc.; the "Germanic" ydna would have to be higher than it is. Not to mention that the Langobards numbered around 100,000 people even according to their own scribes, and the Goths were even smaller in number. The arrival of the Visigoths mimics, imo what happened in Hungary with the arrival of the "Huns".

    I really hope the Reich Lab, and Razib Khan in his summary, don't make these kind of elementary mistakes.

    Now, if someone shows the Germanics carried a lot of R1b U152 then that's a different story.

    I'd also like to see samples from the Italian countryside and mountains from the Late Imperial and Post Imperial Era. When cities collapse, people from the periphery move down and repopulate them.

    We need more data.

    Northern Italian Neo-Nazis, like their brethren from other countries, may want to believe that they have tons of "Germanic" dna from the invasion period, but that really "is" a fantasy.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Northern Italian Neo-Nazis, like their brethren from other countries, may want to believe that they have tons of "Germanic" dna from the invasion period, but that really "is" a fantasy.
    Why would they want that? Given that they do in fact have a lot of DNA similar to the people who founded Rome. DNA from a Germanic invasion breaks that continuity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Why would they want that? Given that they do in fact have a lot of DNA similar to the people who founded Rome. DNA from a Germanic invasion breaks that continuity.
    Brother, that's the million dollar question. Insanity springs to mind. :)

    One of these weirdos has his hair cut German military style in a picture, along with what looks like his version of a German military uniform.

    Meanwhile, Italy was brutalized by the German invasion, aided, to our shame, by some of our Blackshirts.

    Maybe it's things on the internet, the desire to identify with the more prosperous European countries of the last two centuries? Maybe it's because of the separatism in certain regions? No proper pride in being "Italian" in some regions?

    To be honest, there's long been a certain feeling of superiority in some Northern Italians versus Southern Italians based a lot on sheer "looks". My own grandfather used to say horrible things about the ancestry of Southern Italians apparently, although I learned that only when I was older. My father jokingly told me that had he been alive when I got engaged to my husband there would have been hell to pay. My own second cousin was forbidden to marry a son of Southern Italian migrants. Only after five years had passed and she wouldn't look at anyone else did they relent. Meanwhile, he was infinitely too good for her, both in character and looks. :) Out of that whole family he's much my favorite person.

    Maybe those kinds of attitudes in certain families provided fertile ground for that kind of internet propaganda.ar
    In the beginning, the Lega Nord, most dominant in the Veneto and certain parts of Lombardia, wanted to secede and join the Alpine countries, like Switzerland. Of all the idiocy, that was the worst. As if Switzerland would have them. They barely tolerate the Ticino. Try speaking Italian, one of the three "official" languages of Switzerland, in Basel. As if speaking in Venetian would make a difference. Still sounds "Italian" to them, as indeed it is.

    Or, they take too seriously the fact that the Nazis declared us "Honorary Aryans" because that idiot Mussolini tied us to them. Of course, looking at Hitler and a lot of his cronies, yeah, quite a few of us look more "Aryan" than they do. :)

    I don't know too much about Golden Dawn and whether they identify with Germans or are just their own band of loonies. Nothing would surprise me.

    Ed. One of the ironies of this situation is that during the period shortly after Rome conquered the north, people like Livy were falling all over themselves in their claims to be Romans, and trying to brush aside any prior Celtic/Gallic associations. Most people are really disgusting, you know? It's just about associating yourself with what you perceive as power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Brother, that's the million dollar question. Insanity springs to mind. :)

    One of these weirdos has his hair cut German military style in a picture, along with what looks like his version of a German military uniform.

    Meanwhile, Italy was brutalized by the German invasion, aided, to our shame, by some of our Blackshirts.
    I have seen more neo-Nazi with Slavic ancestry than of Germanic heritage or Italian or anything else. Funny because Hitler considered Slavs inferior people owned by Jewish masters. You go figure.

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    [QUOTE=ihype02;619720]I have seen more neo-Nazi with Slavic ancestry than of Germanic heritage or Italian or anything else. Funny because Hitler considered Slavs inferior people owned by Jewish masters. You go figure.[/QUOTGE]

    You're exactly right. That's where there is the most in the open racist skin head activity as well.

    When I've mentioned in the past that they were next on the chopping block, plans already having been drawn up to send them for extermination after the Jews and Homosexuals (forgetting some well known Nazis were Homosexual and Hitler probably had severe sexual problems of course; they weren't going to get any children from him for their breeding program) and gypsies were taken care of, they argue over the authenticity of the plans, which are completely authentic, and as if the attitude toward Slavs wasn't obvious and repeatedly displayed.

    The Nazis wanted all that good, flat farmland for the more industrious German farmers. It was called Lebenstraum. This article blames it all on the Nazis, but it was part of the stated reason for World War I by Imperial Germany as well, just carried to undreamed of extremes. (The Italians to my shame, got into the act, which is why they tried to get into the colonialism game, as one example.)

    "The German concept of Lebensraum (German pronunciation: [ˈleːbənsˌʁaʊm] (listen), "living space") comprises policies and practices of settler colonialism which proliferated in Germany from the 1890s to the 1940s. First popularized around 1901,[2] Lebensraum became a geopolitical goal of Imperial Germany in World War I (1914–1918) originally, as the core element of the Septemberprogramm of territorial expansion.[3] The most extreme form of this ideology was supported by the Nazi Party (NSDAP) and Nazi Germany until the end of World War II.[4]Following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the German territorial expansion into Central and Eastern Europe.[5] The Nazi Generalplan Ost policy ('Master Plan for the East') was based on its tenets. It stipulated that Germany required a Lebensraum necessary for its survival and that most of the indigenous populations of Central and Eastern Europe would have to be removed permanently (either through mass deportation to Siberia, extermination, or enslavement) including Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech and other Slavic nations considered non-Aryan. The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during World War II and thereafter.[6][7][8][9] Entire indigenous populations were decimated by starvation, allowing for their own agricultural surplus to feed Germany.[6]"



    Of course, the Nazis identified race by physical characteristics in some cases. So, for example, if a Polish or Russian child was blonde and blue eyed and had the right cranial and face measurements, they sometimes made an exception and took them from their parents to be adopted by German parents. There's a great video program about it. The bitterness of these children. now adults, is profound, poor things.

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    But today we know from genetics that many of the slavs ( considered inferiour by nazis)
    Are more closer to the ancient indo-iranians aka aryan than germans....( or at least the germans who are not r1a)


    P.s
    And personally the european left is more dangerous
    At least i know what those skin head think the are not hiding what you see is what you get...
    Sefhardi, aschenazi, bulgarian
    die Überlebenden
    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y62418/
    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/
    k12b ancient
    Closest:
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    R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietrophenotype: east med with pontic vibe

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    And personally the european left is more dangerous
    At least i know what those skin head think the are not hiding what you see is what you get...
    the nazis or skinheads are just the tip of the iceberg. most of the rest you can not see. they are just a very extreme subgroup of the overall racist population.
    and if someone is a nazi who follows Hitler or just another racist in any other shape or form, doesn't matter in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    the nazis or skinheads are just the tip of the iceberg. most of the rest you can not see. they are just a very extreme subgroup of the overall racist population.
    and if someone is a nazi who follows Hitler or just another racist in any other shape or form, doesn't matter in the end.
    Including non-white racists, who advocate for their own racial supremacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Including non-white racists, who advocate for their own racial supremacy.
    My vote is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Including non-white racists, who advocate for their own racial supremacy.
    of course. i would also include ethno- or "race"-centrists who base their centrism on genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    of course. i would also include ethno- or "race"-centrists who base their centrism on genetics.
    I think the real danger is misunderstanding genetics, or twisting it to fit ideology. I see it a lot when I lurk on that dumpster fire known as twitter.

    I think understanding thorny subjects like genetics is imperative, otherwise it creates a vacuum that gets filled by extremism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is the section:
    do you use information from the below attachment in your analysis

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...7th_century_BC
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    do you use information from the below attachment in your analysis

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...7th_century_BC

    I don't follow what this would have to do with my previous post in regards to the demographic shifts of central Italy in late antiquity and the middle ages.

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    A little off topic my friend, but on one of these forums here on Eupedia, Regio X did some admixture runs on G25 with East and West Sicilians, and found around .4% Shum Laka admixture. He included the Iberomaurusians in said runs, and from what I understand, the Iberomaurusian samples are partly Eurasian, as well as partly Ancestral North African/Ancestral East African (ANA/AEA), which is in turn related in some way to Basal Eurasian (BE). If I am not mistaken, ANA/AEA ancestry is present in the Shum Laka samples, as it is in almost all Sub-Saharan African populations; there is also a minor bit of Eurasian ancestry not directly related to ANA/AEA, in the Shum Laka samples; most likely related to the various back migrations from Eurasia and Northern Africa, into Sub-Saharan Africa over the last 200kyb. Do you think that is why Regio X's G25 run picks up very minor, almost noise level Shum Laka admixture in present-day Sicilians, and even in one of the Roman Republican-era samples? I believe that because of this shared ANA/AEA ancestry, noise levels of Shum Laka admixture appear in modern day Sicily; this also explains the presence mtDNA Haplogroups L1b1 and L2a1 in Neolithic/Eneolithic Iberia, as well as the minor presence of Y-DNA haplogroup A1 in small pockets across Eurasia, such as in the Aegean Region of Turkey, Jordan, Oman, Palestine, Sardinia, Ireland, Scotland, northeastern England, Norway and even Finland. I'm finding it difficult to get more definitive answers regarding the genetic/phylogenetic relations between Eurasia, Northern Africa, and Sub-Saharan Africa; especially seeing that these topics seem to have been hijacked by Afrocentrist types on Anthrogenica. Some of these posters appear to have been rejects from Egypt Search, and some of them even believe Basal Eurasian is some from of Sub-Saharan African ancestry. To me this is the equivalent of saying modern humans evolved from Chimpanzees or Old World Monkeys, when in actuality we share a common ancestor. The same applies to modern human biological diversity, you wouldn't say modern Europeans are descended from Siberians, Syrians, Turks, Egyptians or Jordanians, because for one, those modern populations didn't exist at that time in human history; instead all these groups share common Eurasian and North/Northeast African ancestors, related to the first Out of Africa expansions 60-70ybp.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Jovialis, honestly, I don't see the point of arguing with someone like this, or posting at anthrogenica. When you boil it down there are probably very few actual individuals posting. Most of the posts are from socks. I find the very idea of engaging them disgusting

    Anyone who believes you can deduce the amount of a certain ancestry from y dna statistics at this point in the study of genetics other than to say that many times autosomal percentages are going to be a fraction of the yDna signature is beneath engaging in discussion......

    I can understand Jovialis that he felt he had to step in, in order to set the record straight. There are plenty agenda and ideologically driven folks on anthrogenica, beginning by the Mods. So, it's kinda refreshing when there are users who challenge or try to refute these posters who interpret the data according to their pet theories. Certainly, debating and discussing with members of AG that have an agenda can be futile and even gets you sooner or later banned. But then again, someone has to clarify what the actual data says or indicates in order to prevent other readers from getting misled. Furthermore, AG is pretty popular and followed by many people who are intrested in their origin or just in ancient people. Plus, there are not few people who consider anthrogenica as a forum with authority when it comes to ancient DNA, etc.

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    @Jovialis

    Riddle me this, that you say there is zero Levantine admixture in Southern and Central Italians

    Here is looking at Vahaduo gradients, when comparing two pops, the first showing what pop 1 has more of and the second showing what pop 2 has. I'm half Lucanian and half Sicilian so just to see

    Chart 1 me vs Lombardy

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
    A: Azzurro_scaled
    B: Italian_Lombardy
    C: ↴
    -0.04697202 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    -0.04560101 Tunisian_Jew
    -0.04506793 Lebanese_Christian
    -0.04502367 Libyan_Jew
    -0.04380057 Samaritan
    -0.04369960 Palestinian
    -0.04349487 Karaite_Egypt
    -0.04342150 Jordanian
    -0.04335536 Lebanese_Druze
    -0.04331608 Romaniote_Jew
    -0.04330282 Druze
    -0.04323730 Cypriot
    -0.04323594 BedouinA
    -0.04281699 Lebanese_Muslim
    -0.04240975 Syrian_Jew
    -0.04202865 Sephardic_Jew
    -0.04193884 Moroccan_Jew
    -0.04185732 Italian_Jew
    -0.04182144 Iraqi_Jew
    -0.04178363 Yemenite_Amran
    -0.04146349 Yemenite_Dhamar
    -0.04145701 Ashkenazi_Germany
    -0.04117618 Yemenite_Ma'rib
    -0.04081285 BedouinB
    -0.04078270 Egyptian

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: Azzurro_scaled
    B: Italian_Lombardy
    C: ↴
    0.04616570 French_Occitanie
    0.04596957 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
    0.04593070 Basque_French
    0.04573025 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.04537104 French_Auvergne
    0.04481222 French_South
    0.04440522 Basque_Spanish
    0.04418347 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04409500 Spanish_Barcelones
    0.04403272 Swiss_German
    0.04372056 Spanish_Lleida
    0.04345644 English_Cornwall
    0.04336925 Spanish_Cantabria
    0.04328407 French_Brittany
    0.04310045 French_Nord
    0.04308457 English
    0.04285668 French_Paris
    0.04282876 Spanish_Aragon
    0.04274457 Orcadian
    0.04262683 Welsh
    0.04258209 Scottish
    0.04254835 Belgian
    0.04244068 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04241583 Spanish_Pirineu
    0.04237266 Spanish_Catalunya_Central

    Next 2 for you since your Pugliese, Puglia vs Lombardy

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
    A: Italian_Apulia
    B: Italian_Lombardy
    C: ↴
    -0.05039380 Greek_Kos
    -0.05002065 Cypriot
    -0.04991024 Greek_Dodecanese
    -0.04987424 Greek_Crete
    -0.04958243 Druze
    -0.04932296 Lebanese_Druze
    -0.04926000 Italian_Campania
    -0.04919607 Lebanese_Christian
    -0.04896156 Iraqi_Jew
    -0.04877783 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    -0.04816992 Karaite_Egypt
    -0.04802114 Romaniote_Jew
    -0.04795111 Syrian_Jew
    -0.04793188 Lebanese_Muslim
    -0.04771010 Italian_Calabria
    -0.04770576 Italian_Basilicata
    -0.04770328 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    -0.04724583 Samaritan
    -0.04702269 Greek_Cappadocia
    -0.04623210 Assyrian
    -0.04622167 Iranian_Jew
    -0.04596442 Georgian_Jew
    -0.04570986 Armenian
    -0.04559199 Italian_Jew
    -0.04541148 Sephardic_Jew

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: Italian_Apulia
    B: Italian_Lombardy
    C: ↴
    0.04811817 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
    0.04762656 Basque_French
    0.04659519 Basque_Spanish
    0.04645296 French_South
    0.04607401 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.04591461 Spanish_Barcelones
    0.04579097 French_Occitanie
    0.04507768 French_Auvergne
    0.04501614 Spanish_Lleida
    0.04498966 Spanish_Aragon
    0.04486812 Spanish_Cantabria
    0.04426657 Spanish_Navarra
    0.04422151 Spanish_Pirineu
    0.04417128 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    0.04410601 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
    0.04347178 Spanish_Girona
    0.04344095 Spanish_Valencia
    0.04328784 Spanish_Penedes
    0.04276611 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    0.04275293 Spanish_Cataluna
    0.04267207 French_Paris
    0.04262469 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    0.04256021 Spanish_Castello
    0.04254226 Spanish_Asturias
    0.04220933 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

    Now me vs Puglia average from G25

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
    A: Azzurro_scaled
    B: Italian_Apulia
    C: ↴
    -0.01095705 Berber_MAR_TIZ
    -0.01078279 Moroccan_North
    -0.01061598 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
    -0.01046510 Saharawi
    -0.01045269 Mozabite
    -0.01038683 Berber_MAR_ERR
    -0.01035996 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
    -0.00993874 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
    -0.00991996 Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
    -0.00979948 Algerian
    -0.00960243 Moroccan
    -0.00955279 Moroccan_South
    -0.00929198 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
    -0.00917140 Tunisian
    -0.00807193 Berber_Algeria
    -0.00799620 Tunisian_Douz
    -0.00794973 Libyan
    -0.00794479 Fulani
    -0.00748450 Spanish_Canarias
    -0.00743965 Tunisian_Rbaya
    -0.00686667 Mandenka
    -0.00677981 Gambian
    -0.00677316 Igbo
    -0.00674689 Esan_Nigeria
    -0.00671087 Mende_Sierra_Leone

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: Azzurro_scaled
    B: Italian_Apulia
    C: ↴
    0.01675761 Italian_Basilicata
    0.01573005 Circassian
    0.01572491 Ossetian
    0.01571614 Kabardin
    0.01545934 Karachay
    0.01540089 Adygei
    0.01529509 Abazin
    0.01523285 Balkar
    0.01520394 Ingushian
    0.01520252 Italian_Molise
    0.01517609 Cherkes
    0.01497347 Abkhasian
    0.01489201 North_Ossetian
    0.01475707 Turkish_North
    0.01469924 Kumyk
    0.01468853 Greek_Crete
    0.01447690 Turkish_Central
    0.01432282 Italian_Campania
    0.01421947 Greek_Izmir
    0.01416759 Turkish_Kayseri
    0.01412351 Georgian_Imer
    0.01410833 Chechen
    0.01410582 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.01385643 Azeri_Turkey
    0.01364512 Greek_Trabzon

  23. #923
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I never said that. I said there could be some levantine via Moors and Saracens. I have insisted that the Imperial era did not bring in transformative waves of near eastern immigration. Which is what this paper shows. You proport to be half-Sicilian. So you would probably have a very small amount of moorish ancestry You and people like you have falsely insisted it is a significant component. When even Anatolian_BA only has 5% levant farmer in them. Also why are you using modern populations to try to deduce that? We already have ancient samples that can provide a more accurate picture. Also, those modern populations are user provided, so they're not even all that reliable. For example, I plot slightly north of Abruzzo with that sample set, and I am closer to them than it's Apulia sample. I'm not by my pc at the moment.

  24. #924
    Banned
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I never said that. I said there could be some levantine via Moors and Saracens. I have insisted that the Imperial era did not bring in transformative waves of near eastern immigration. Which is what this paper shows. You proport to be half-Sicilian. So you would probably have a very small amount of moorish ancestry You and people like you have falsely insisted it is a significant component. When even Anatolian_BA only has 5% levant farmer in them. Also why are you using modern populations to try to deduce that? We already have ancient samples that can provide a more accurate picture. Also, those modern populations are user provided, so they're not even all that reliable. For example, I plot slightly north of Abruzzo with that sample set, and I am closer to them than it's Apulia sample. I'm not by my pc at the moment.
    Its not only Sicilians, all Italians have some of this ancestry just in varying degrees. I do always score North African, Moorish ancestry is specifically mostly restricted to Sicily and skewed to Western side of the island, you see when I compare myself to Puglia, I have a North African pull vs the pull for Puglia is more Italic and some Caucasus like admix. In terms of component its 3rd to Greek and Native like ancestry, probably anywhere from 5-20%. I used modern just so using all pops we can do the same with ancients if you’d like the result will be the same.

    I'll do the exact same 3 but with ancient just to see

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
    A: Azzurro_scaled
    B: Italian_Lombardy
    C: ↴
    -0.04654301 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
    -0.04645886 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
    -0.04564379 Levant_Beirut_IAII
    -0.04546720 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    -0.04537057 Levant_Sidon_MBA
    -0.04524332 Levant_LBN_MA
    -0.04506587 Levant_LBN_Roman
    -0.04500486 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
    -0.04497101 Levant_Abel_IA
    -0.04490149 Levant_Baqah_BA
    -0.04416679 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    -0.04410870 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
    -0.04400349 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
    -0.04389557 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    -0.04387587 Levant_JOR_EBA
    -0.04352114 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    -0.04343998 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
    -0.04330058 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
    -0.04328653 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
    -0.04301334 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
    -0.04283930 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
    -0.04269086 EGY_Late_Period
    -0.04186878 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
    -0.04158253 TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
    -0.04113304 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: Azzurro_scaled
    B: Italian_Lombardy
    C: ↴
    0.04656284 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
    0.04600792 FRA_Grand_Est_EBA_o
    0.04554412 Iberia_North_IA
    0.04488038 FRA_Occitanie_IA2
    0.04471355 FRA_Hauts_De_France_IA2
    0.04460014 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
    0.04452605 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    0.04355815 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
    0.04352483 DEU_Lech_BBC
    0.04293914 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
    0.04292336 ITA_Collegno_MA
    0.04260115 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
    0.04230452 Scotland_LBA
    0.04230000 VK2020_Scotland_Orkney_VA
    0.04216315 VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
    0.04215560 DEU_Lech_EBA_contam
    0.04215351 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp
    0.04203318 VK2020_Faroes_EM
    0.04200165 England_Roman
    0.04190681 DEU_Singen_EBA
    0.04188492 CHE_EBA
    0.04182430 FRA_Grand_Est_EBA
    0.04180018 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
    0.04172381 ITA_Etruscan
    0.04162954 Bell_Beaker_CHE

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
    A: Italian_Apulia
    B: Italian_Lombardy
    C: ↴
    -0.05029098 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    -0.04979581 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
    -0.04967688 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
    -0.04943465 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    -0.04932819 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
    -0.04919046 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
    -0.04917313 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
    -0.04910746 Levant_LBN_Roman
    -0.04894733 Levant_LBN_MA
    -0.04884040 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    -0.04839711 IND_Roopkund_B_o
    -0.04836996 Levant_Sidon_MBA
    -0.04804477 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
    -0.04788977 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
    -0.04787002 TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
    -0.04779643 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    -0.04768597 Levant_Abel_IA
    -0.04756779 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    -0.04749306 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
    -0.04746872 Levant_Baqah_BA
    -0.04743205 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
    -0.04731439 Levant_Beirut_IAII
    -0.04715215 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
    -0.04707166 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC
    -0.04663320 TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: Italian_Apulia
    B: Italian_Lombardy
    C: ↴
    0.04717043 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
    0.04680025 Iberia_North_IA
    0.04408293 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    0.04393664 FRA_Occitanie_IA2
    0.04381027 FRA_Hauts_De_France_IA2
    0.04372629 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
    0.04351516 FRA_Grand_Est_EBA_o
    0.04346890 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
    0.04315933 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
    0.04285383 Iberia_East_IA
    0.04248588 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
    0.04239483 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp
    0.04192815 ITA_Etruscan
    0.04192044 Iberia_Mallorca_EBA
    0.04191855 CHE_IA
    0.04180234 DEU_Lech_EBA_contam
    0.04168613 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    0.04138268 Iberia_Northeast_RomP
    0.04115005 Iberia_Menorca_LBA
    0.04105508 DEU_Lech_BBC
    0.04080975 FRA_Grand_Est_IA1
    0.04057321 FRA_Grand_Est_EBA
    0.04055253 DEU_Singen_EBA
    0.04051532 Iberia_North_BA
    0.04050144 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
    A: Azzurro_scaled
    B: Italian_Apulia
    C: ↴
    -0.01184459 MAR_LN
    -0.01098823 ITA_Sardinia_Punic
    -0.01084036 Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE
    -0.01068713 ITA_Etruscan_o1
    -0.01064138 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    -0.01041249 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
    -0.01034771 ITA_Sardinia_C_o
    -0.01023527 Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE
    -0.01014421 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
    -0.00983191 MAR_EN
    -0.00974578 MAR_Taforalt
    -0.00856199 Iberia_Ibiza_Punic
    -0.00829704 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_o
    -0.00777278 DEU_Esperstedt_MN
    -0.00776686 FRA_Occitanie_MN
    -0.00753677 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
    -0.00740520 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    -0.00720464 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
    -0.00719512 ITA_Sardinia_LCA
    -0.00715924 FRA_MN_PRI
    -0.00713235 FRA_MN_FLR
    -0.00710924 FRA_Grand_Est_MN
    -0.00709356 IRL_EN_MN
    -0.00708906 England_N
    -0.00708827 CHE_MN

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: Azzurro_scaled
    B: Italian_Apulia
    C: ↴
    0.01596878 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
    0.01594113 IND_Roopkund_B
    0.01539048 ARM_Areni_C
    0.01496791 RUS_Alan_MA
    0.01467541 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
    0.01449881 RUS_Maykop
    0.01336193 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
    0.01330451 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    0.01321084 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
    0.01317634 ARM_MBA
    0.01301759 RUS_Maykop_Late
    0.01286196 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
    0.01270293 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
    0.01255068 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
    0.01250893 ARM_LBA
    0.01249805 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
    0.01243047 GEO_CHG
    0.01228049 TUR_Barcin_C
    0.01227321 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
    0.01215714 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
    0.01211911 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
    0.01207212 IND_Roopkund_B_o
    0.01199676 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
    0.01168996 TUR_IA
    0.01156714 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent

  25. #925
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    4,948

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Often I have seen results suggesting Moorish ancestry being within a fraction of a percent in the mainland South. Perhaps, a tad higher in Sicily. Specifically, North African ancestry. However most of the time I see the so-called Near Eastern excess in the south being related to Iran_N. Usually as North Caucasus ancestry. I believe this kind of ancestry was flowing in since the early bronze age and probably earlier, through intermediary populations. Often Southern Italians can be modeled with populations like Minoans, according to our results in Maciamo's sample sets. This makes sense, because I think Anatolian_N with a small but significant amount of CHG, are what pre-italics in the south looked like. Who then mixed with Italics flowing in, as well as Greek colonists, and Iapygians.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 22-03-21 at 02:14.

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