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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #976
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The new paper on the origin and distribution of Ydna J1-M267 provides, I think, more evidence for informed analysis.

    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...709#post621709


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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    @Jovialis,

    Its not my main focus, in fact I only become this Levantine in Italians rep when discussing with this crowd. Also I didn’t say it’s definitely 20% range of 5-20%.

    By counter arguement why are all genetic companies like Ftdna, MyHeritage, 23&Me and the old Nat Geo calculator give this Middle Eastern?

    Your aware that the Ivy League schools are in contact with him? He actually isn’t an amateur regardless of what you think of Davidski.

    This is why I dislike autosomal dna, because a lot of it is subjective and bias, i’m an very biased not going to lie about that. When it comes to Uniparental its much more clear cut.
    The vast majority of the "middle eastern" I have seen is usually Iran and Caucasus-related. Thus this is very old (possibly EBA) excess CHG that their modeling adds to their "Italian" components; which is usually about 4 or 5%. We need to connect the dots; Sarno et al. 2021 shows there is very old CHG/IN in southern Italy.


    Only a minority of "middle eastern" can usually be broadly associated with the levant region, or within the range of a single percentage point. Which I have speculated could be more attributed to Moorish and Saracen admixture from the Middle Ages. FYI, the levant area is also counted as "North African" in 23andme.


    So what if he is in contact with them? His calculator is not giving the accurate modeling, which is not cohesive with what the academics are publishing. I have been in contact with several professionals as well, but that doesn't make me an expert. Like I said, these kinds of calculators are better for broad analysis, not precise analysis, because it clearly doesn't jive well with what the actual experts are saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The new paper on the origin and distribution of Ydna J1-M267 provides, I think, more evidence for informed analysis.

    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...709#post621709
    It’s not really a direct evidence, I use evidence based on ancient samples and where are clades are currently found today, who brought them. J1 is usually either 6th or 7th and sometimes 8th haplogroup of depending the region or province when looked analytically. I know which J1 branches we see in Italians and across Europe and the Middle East. In the response I gave to Leopoldo, rougly half of the J1 in the Peninsula is of the Classical Middle East variety, the other half is not as clear cut. The most common branch of the other half might be Greek in origin and came in with some J2 in Early Bronze Age, other clades there is clear answer. The 2 best examples are J-FGC8216 and J-L829, where we see young TMRCA’s, we see clear Middle Eastern, Mediterranean Europe and Central and North European branches, so success branches in Roman Empire, and could have been in Italy or Iberian Peninsula very early in Iron Age via Phoenicians and spread with people who were autosomally Italian or Spanish. Then there could have been some who came from a direct ancestor from the Levant. The ultimate source would still be the same, and both aforementioned clades are non trival in distribution. I personally find this exciting that you can see this, and its not only ancient Levantine Y’s I’m interested in, would like to see the spread of Greek paternal lineages, Italic, etc... in the Antonio et al. paper you had several Celts too who settled in Roman Italy, definitely there was some Uniparental leftover as well. We’re getting more papers from ancient Italy, so its going to be exciting.

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    @Jovialis

    Look we see this completely different, if you choose not to see the Levantine its on you, for me its been a fact like the sky is blue since 2016 when I got my first ever results back from Nat Geo.

    Maybe the Calcs plus the Uniparental evidence one day will become clear to you as many others see it. There was another poster whom I always argued with over similar discussions, now doesn't deny it anymore.

    We'll see what 2021 brings us

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    Italians in general are well aware that the Roman Empire was multi-ethnic and that there may have been some legacies from the imperial era in Italy. Of course, many Italians are also ignorant and still think that the Latins or Italics were Nordic gods compared to the other populations of pre-Roman Italy. In any case, uniparental markers on mitochondrial or Y chromosomal DNA represent only one ancestor of the many ancestors from which a person is descended. Ethnicity estimates of commercial companies are games. To be clear for me everyone is free to do and think what he wants, but it is naive to think that an Italian can change his identity on the basis of his genetic results, or because he discovers he has a Y-DNA that exists in the Levant he begins to feel more Levantine than Italian, just as if he discovers he has a Y-DNA that is more frequent among Germanic populations he can begin to feel more German or Scandinavian than Italian. The Italian demography has changed a lot in the last 150 years because of internal migrations, and in the last 30-40 years it is changing because of external ones, and it will change again in the next years. Despite this, regional identity is still strong in Italy, even when a person has ancestors from different regions of Italy. There are many Italians born in a region other than that of their parents' origin who identify with their place of birth rather than their parents' place of origin. Identity is first and foremost a cultural process. Changing identity on the basis of genetic data may happen in the new world, or it may happen to those of mixed ancestry or to migrants in a completely different context, but it can hardly happen in Europe. Very rarely I do see it happening in Italy in the real life.

    The interest in these topics should be purified by personal research into one's own identity, which only ends up influencing the judgement on what are the conclusions or hypotheses of the research. Population genetics produces hypotheses, genetic studies rarely have the smoking gun. And population genetics, including studies of the much overrated Ivy League schools, is much criticised by other scholars for its approach and method, which is often reminiscent of old 19th century theories. Pointing out that southern Europeans have more contact with West Asia, Levant and North Africa, which given the geography is like reinventing the wheel, feeds the idea that the purest Europeans are northern Europeans, nineteenth-century idea that it was the geneticists themselves who revived. So it is absolutely no surprise that he may be in contact with Ivy League Schools. Because more and more we see in discussions Nordicists going hand in hand with migrationists and orientalists.

    Having said that, a few words should also be said about the G25 and Italy. As far as Italy is concerned, many areas are still uncovered, Liguria is based on a single individual probably from the Savona area, Emilia and Romagna are completely missing, and it is evident that the Alpine and Prealpine areas are oversampled compared to the Po Valley. The view it can give is still very partial. Only in a few years' time will we have a more accurate view, although it cannot be taken for granted, because Italian geneticists have suffered from circular argumentation from the very beginning, as this can be seen in their work, and from Cavalli-Sforza's initial wrong approach. So, if even geneticists are not exempt from mistakes, why should we believe amateurs who have never had a neutral point of view? When he said that modern samples were not representative and reliable he was referring only and exclusively to a few samples that he was interested in. Those who have really a neutral approach, rare even to find among geneticists, are interested in the accuracy of all, not just the part they are attached to for personal reasons.



    Present pasts in the archaeology of genetics, identity, and migration in Europe: a critical essay


    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00438243.2019.1627907

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    @Jovialis

    Look we see this completely different, if you choose not to see the Levantine its on you, for me its been a fact like the sky is blue since 2016 when I got my first ever results back from Nat Geo.

    Maybe the Calcs plus the Uniparental evidence one day will become clear to you as many others see it. There was another poster whom I always argued with over similar discussions, now doesn't deny it anymore.

    We'll see what 2021 brings us
    Yeah, we do see it completely differently. But I do not choose to not see, what is not there. I already told you my take on it.

    As for Nat Geo, my results did not indicate Levantine for me either:



    Originally, I thought it shows Italian being augmented by Norman or Lombard input.

    Regardless, of direct-to-consumer models, I do not see it in Sarno et al. 2021. So I don't know what to tell you.

    The only explanation I can think of is non-steppe CHG pulse in EBA for excess Caucasus-related ancestry in South Europeans.

    Approximately a percent or less of Levant/North African related to Moors/Saracens. But I guess that's too little for them to even use in the modeling.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 25-03-21 at 02:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Yeah, we do see it completely differently. But I do not choose to not see, what is not there. I already told you my take on it.

    As for Nat Geo, my results did not indicate Levantine for me either:



    Originally, I thought is shows Italian being augmented by Norman or Lombard input.

    Regardless, of direct-to-consumer models, I do not see it in Sarno et al. 2021. So I don't know what to tell you.

    The only explanation I can think of is non-steppe CHG pulse in EBA for excess Caucasus-related ancestry in South Europeans.

    Approximately a percent or less of Levant/North African related to Moors/Saracens. But I guess that's too little for them to even use in the modeling.
    The Nat Geo modeling sort of reminds me of the Dodecad Ancient Rome Test modeling:



    Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    1.58104396 Italian_Abruzzo
    2.75294388 Italian_Campania
    3.44476414 Italian_Apulia
    3.51955963 Italian_Sicily
    4.59958694 Greek_Lemnos
    5.77788023 Greek_Foca
    5.79443699 Italian_Calabria
    6.31964398 Greek_Central
    6.34653449 Ashkenazi_Jews
    6.48418846 Greek_Athens
    6.79745541 Greek_Izmir
    6.82921665 Moldavian_Jewish
    7.21295363 Greek_Fournoi
    7.33743034 Italian_Marche
    7.44902678 Italian_Lazio
    8.33485453 Greek_Crete
    8.52562021 Greek_Peloponnese
    9.90076765 Albanian
    10.25443319 Italian_Jews
    10.40373010 Greek_Icaria
    10.48913247 Greek_Thrace
    10.63477785 Greek_Kos
    10.78041279 Italian_Romagna
    11.10206287 Greek_Thessaly
    11.12278742 Greek_Thessaloniki


    Distance to: C7_Late_Antiquity_European:R106_Crypta_Balbi
    5.97977424 Bavarian_German
    6.44240638 French_Northeast
    6.67700532 French_North
    8.07205674 Dutch
    8.51226174 English_South
    8.62562462 French_Northwest
    9.14299732 Hungarian_Transdanubia_Budapest
    9.14821294 English_mixed
    9.15852062 Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
    9.71460756 Hungarian
    9.84938069 English_North
    10.22175621 German_Northwest
    10.25785065 Scottish
    10.46867709 Hungarian_Alfold
    10.67980805 German
    10.96936188 Slovenian
    11.45865175 Irish
    11.66404304 Hungarian_North
    12.19399032 Icelandic
    12.21720508 Croat
    12.47612520 Czech
    13.02931694 Bosnian
    13.07887228 Serb
    13.37731288 Danish
    13.76011264 Moldavian_North

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    one to one ... vs R969 Tivoli Palazzo Cianti (Date range: 1600 CE - 1700 CE)



    Edit : ... wrong thread, ... but it's OK :) ... there aren't many R samples on that site, ... get the Kit # !

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    Search for Shared DNA Segments in Two Raw Data Files.

    Salento vs R437 / R850 (single segment matches only ... MTA )

    ... my settings:

    Single Segment Matches of length at least 100 tested SNPs
    Report Double Segment Matches of length at least 250 tested SNPs
    Treat No-Calls as Matching SNPs? no
    ............. :


    ... vs R437


    ... vs R850



    https://www.math.mun.ca/~dapike/FF23utils/pair-comp.php

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    one to one: R1 vs R437 & R850

    R1 (# AG4512653) vs R437 (# SA5994979)




    R1 (# AG4512653) vs R850 (# SN3426822)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I was wrong about all the Imperial Roman samples coming from Isola Sacra near Ostia, although a good number do. They're actually from some necropoli around the city of Rome itself as well. So, not like future archaeologists excavating just in Flushing. It's like archaeologists excavating in New York City as a whole, or London.

    However, the burial contexts tell us nothing. There's no grave goods, no inscriptions, not even names from what I can see, and there's been disturbances at a lot of the sites.

    Interestingly enough, some of the samples come from the Catacombs of Peter and Paul. I have to check tomorrow and see if those are more "East Med", i.e. the samples south and east of modern Southern Italians. It would make sense. The first Christians, and the only Christians for a long time were Jews.

    In that regard, look what happens to the J1 in ancient Italy after the Imperial Era.


    Razib Khan continues to get it:
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...medium=twitter

    "A combination of the wars of the 6th-century, which are recorded to have depopulated much of Italy, and the overall decentering of Rome from the Mediterranean system after the ending of the Western Empire, probably resulted in the inevitable contraction of the Eternal City.Of course, Rome grew again over the centuries. But the new Romans were not the same Romans as those of the Roman Empire, who left few descendants. In addition to far off cosmopolitans, the bulk of the population was probably derived from northern Lazio and southern Tuscany. Rural people whose genetic makeup resembled the Iron Age Italians from whom they descended."
    What is interesting is that J1 is not so great in most of Anatolia, expect for it's very eastern region. The sample size is still small to take conclusions but if we assume that those percentages are good representatives of Y-DNA lines of Imperial Rome population then it seems that the bulk of the population should come from the the very south-eastern Anatolia, Syria, Levant and Northern Africa. Otherwise you don't get nearly 25% J1. (I estimated it with a ruler)

    Last edited by ihype02; 13-10-21 at 00:00.

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    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial
    Distance: 1.4672% / 0.01467243
    51.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    32.4 ITA_Etruscan
    8.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    7.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic


    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial
    Distance: 2.4345% / 0.02434468
    59.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
    23.4 ITA_Etruscan
    17.0 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA



    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial
    Distance: 2.6360% / 0.02635958
    62.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
    37.8 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

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    The calculator fails to recognize significant Classical Greek ancestry in Imperial Romans (0-1.4%). The Empuries does not even show up.
    This makes sense historically and demographically. Those people did not come from Southern Italy. It's mathematically impossible for Imperial Romans to be mostly from Southern Italy. Not only because of the demographics but they cannot create the cluster because Southern Italians plot west of Imperial Romans.

    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial
    Distance: 1.4796% / 0.01479591
    60.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    21.8 ITA_Etruscan
    18.0 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial
    Distance: 1.4417% / 0.01441702
    51.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    22.2 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    16.0 ITA_Etruscan
    9.4 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
    1.2 GRC_Mycenaean

    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial
    Distance: 1.4789% / 0.01478888
    59.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    22.6 ITA_Etruscan
    16.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    1.4 GRC_Mycenaean

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    Stop using averages. They can totally misrepresent what happened.

    For one thing, get rid of the C4 samples, since the authors themselves pointed out that the "tail into the Levant disappeared, and then see what you get.

    That's not to say that some of the C4 type genes didn't remain, but using an average of ALL the samples is not going to give you a complete picture.

    For crying out loud, the "Italian-Greek" like samples which are so similar to modern Southern Italians were already in central Italy in the IRON AGE.

    For another run, maybe do averages of the different Moots groups, and see what happens in terms of admixture to reach Southern Italians/Sicilians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Stop using averages. They can totally misrepresent what happened.

    For one thing, get rid of the C4 samples, since the authors themselves pointed out that the "tail into the Levant disappeared, and then see what you get.

    That's not to say that some of the C4 type genes didn't remain, but using an average of ALL the samples is not going to give you a complete picture.

    For crying out loud, the "Italian-Greek" like samples which are so similar to modern Southern Italians were already in central Italy in the IRON AGE.

    For another run, maybe do averages of the different Moots groups, and see what happens in terms of admixture to reach Southern Italians/Sicilians.
    Only one of them appears to be Italian-Greek-like from Iron Age (and an other one seem shifted towards northern Africa).
    I thought Southern Italian-like Romans were in Late Antiquity only ? The vast majority of Imperial Romans them plot south of Southern Italians.

    Can you help me where can I find the dates of the samples?

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    My guess is that the majority of the imperial samples are indeed foreigners, but before drawing inferences about the demography one must keep in mind that Latins practiced cremation back then and it likely skewed the rests that survived till our days, and C5, the so called "east med" cluster seems to me to be made up of the Anatolians found in the Danubian limes paper, judging from their position in a PCA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    My guess is that the majority of the imperial samples are indeed foreigners, but before drawing inferences about the demography one must keep in mind that Latins practiced cremation back then and it likely skewed the rests that survived till our days, and C5, the so called "east med" cluster seems to me to be made up of the Anatolians found in the Danubian limes paper, judging from their position in a PCA.
    That explain everything. Because Rome had hundreds of thousands Italic people I was wondering why only one or two of Imperial samples are showing as fully Italic-like, surely there should have been more. Scientist must have struggled to find Iron Age Italic samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Only one of them appears to be Italian-Greek-like from Iron Age (and an other one seem shifted towards northern Africa).
    I thought Southern Italian-like Romans were in Late Antiquity only ? The vast majority of Imperial Romans them plot south of Southern Italians.

    Can you help me where can I find the dates of the samples?

    No, the majority of the samples are NOT C3, C4.

    There seems to be 15 C3/C4 samples, and 38 C5/C6 samples from the Imperial Era, so that's not correct. Then there are two samples from the Iron Age which Maciamo labeled "Italian_Greeks". One of them is definitely R850. The other is, I think, R437. To the best of my recollection both Jovialis and Salento are very close to R437, which is labeled C6. Maciamo may, on the other hand, have used the North African leaning sample. I'm not sure.

    Anyway, that brings me to 40 samples. (I think I may be off 1, C/5, C/6, who might be in another part of the list of samples. Jovialis would know.)

    Jovialis has illustrated all of this again and again.

    If you don't have a copy of his coordinates for the Imperial Era Antonio et al samples, here they are, separated by cluster.

    C3-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R132:Antonio_201 9,1.24,0,17.94,1.71,24.66,4.24,0,6.41,16.58,0.29,2 4.91,2.02
    C3-Viale_Rossini_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R80:Antonio _2019,3.6,0,11.4,0,27.69,7.57,0,3.33,16.8,0.28,28. 39,0.94
    C4-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R67:Antonio_2019,18.93,0,4.46,0 .81,9.71,3.86,0.41,1.41,17.74,0,42.1,0.57
    C4-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R68:Antonio_2019,17.66,0,3.38,0 ,12.85,0.04,0,1.12,19.87,0,44.63,0.45
    C4-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R70:Antonio_2019,9.87,0.04,2.27 ,0,21.13,2.38,0,1.9,20.78,0,41.64,0
    C4-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R73:Antonio_2019,10.71,0,6.38,0 ,23.57,4.41,0.48,0.11,18.48,0,34.78,1.09
    C4-Casale_del_Dolce_Imperial_Rome:R126:Antonio_2019,8 .87,0.13,2.7,0,21.68,1.28,0.37,0,18.5,0.5,45.28,0. 69
    C4-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R38:Antonio_2 019,11.97,0.24,2.94,0,17.99,1.99,0.16,0.3,18.03,0, 46.26,0.13
    C4-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R41:Antonio_2 019,6.8,0,4.58,0.58,22.76,5.5,1.17,0.93,16.28,0.84 ,40.36,0.19
    C4-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R42:Antonio_2 019,8.78,0,3.65,0.61,16.08,0,0,1.86,24.68,0.29,43. 58,0.49
    C4-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1547:Antonio_2019,7.68 ,0,5.24,0.75,16.6,0,0.88,2.25,24.3,0,42.29,0
    C4-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1550:Antonio_2019,12.1 4,0,7.34,0.46,14.89,1.07,0,1.17,23.92,0.34,38.67,0
    C4-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1551:Antonio_2019,14.5 1,0,0,0.07,10.96,4.32,0,0,15.15,0,54.02,0.96
    C4-Viale_Rossini_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R75:Antonio _2019,7.1,0,4.53,0,21.52,4.26,0.62,1.18,16.8,0.53, 43.46,0
    C4-Viale_Rossini_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R76:Antonio _2019,7.56,0,3.38,0.5,17.19,5.76,0.79,0,19.2,0.06, 45.56,0
    C5-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R66:Antonio_2019,7.41,0,0,0.88, 25.05,8.08,0,0,17.27,0,40.91,0.4
    C5-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R69:Antonio_2019,7.86,0.81,0.57 ,0,27.22,11.31,0,0,9.7,0,42.15,0.39
    C5-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R71:Antonio_2019,7.22,0,4.51,0, 21.22,2.34,0,0,11.39,0,52.86,0.46
    C5-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R72:Antonio_2019,8.93,0,0.55,0, 23.61,5.18,0,0,16.96,0.36,43.85,0.57
    C5-Casale_del_Dolce_Imperial_Rome:R123:Antonio_2019,8 .53,0,0,1.18,24.75,8.57,0,0,15.64,0,41.02,0.3
    C5-Casale_del_Dolce_Imperial_Rome:R128:Antonio_2019,8 .25,0,1.27,0,20.16,8.57,0.69,0,14.58,0,46.38,0.1
    C5-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R50:Antonio_20 19,8.31,0,0.91,0,25.51,11.04,0.37,0,15.34,0.52,36. 86,1.15
    C5-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R39:Antonio_2 019,7.32,0.69,3.87,0.29,25.31,7.92,0,0,13.54,0.16, 40.39,0.51
    C5-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R40:Antonio_2 019,7.17,1,0.52,0.04,27.69,5.79,0,0,15.54,0,41.29, 0.97
    C5-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R43:Antonio_2 019,7.74,0,1.35,0,26.77,3.83,0.51,0,12.69,0,46.89, 0.23
    C5-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R44:Antonio_2 019,5.19,0,2.37,0,29.27,4.24,0,0,12.92,0,45.7,0.31
    C5-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R45:Antonio_2 019,5.04,0,9.86,0,27.46,7.12,0.8,0,16.44,0,32.4,0. 88
    C5-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R130:Antonio_201 9,9.5,0,4.35,0,24.11,2.09,0.93,0,17.15,0,41.34,0.5 3
    C5-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R133:Antonio_201 9,7.2,0.88,3.08,0.32,26.06,7.84,0,0,14.07,0,39.97, 0.58
    C5-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R134:Antonio_201 9,8.11,0,4.64,0.7,23.15,7.79,0,0.89,15.41,0,39.31, 0.01

    C5-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1548:Antonio_2019,10.4 7,0,1.51,0,23.09,11.15,0,0.34,13.95,0,39.5,0
    C5-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1543:Ant onio_2019,8.92,0,5.86,0,21.15,9.11,0.41,0.36,14.95 ,0,38.92,0.31
    C5-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1545:Ant onio_2019,7.65,0,0.11,0,25.35,8.55,0.79,0.23,15.75 ,0,40.81,0.75

    C5-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R114:Antoni o_2019,8.42,0,1.52,0,23.81,13.17,0.21,0,15.09,0,37 .22,0.57
    C5-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R115:Antoni o_2019,7.93,0.62,4.33,0,21.69,10.11,0,0,15.87,0,39 .44,0
    C5-Viale_Rossini_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R78:Antonio _2019,7.22,0,2.96,0,21.74,4.79,0,0.21,13.19,0.38,4 9.44,0.06
    C5-Viale_Rossini_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R81:Antonio _2019,7.2,0,3.08,0,24.47,7.25,1.26,0,16.89,0.24,39 .24,0.36

    C6-Casale_del_Dolce_Imperial_Rome:R125:Antonio_2019,8 .89,0,2.51,0.08,27.83,9.8,0.09,0,10.91,0,39.46,0.4 3

    C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R47:Antonio_20 19,9.26,0.79,5.46,0,30.38,11.55,0,0.1,9.43,0,32.54 ,0.5
    C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R49:Antonio_20 19,7.88,0,1.68,0.17,29.59,14.37,0,1.09,10.73,0,34. 2,0.29
    C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R51:Antonio_20 19,7.5,0,2.26,0,25.82,10.46,0,0,13.7,1.23,39.03,0
    C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R835:Antonio_2019, 8.06,0.47,2.84,1.58,30.3,16.15,0,0,10.89,0,29.71,0
    C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R836:Antonio_2019, 7.99,0,1.59,0,30.78,15.05,0,0,10.14,0,34.45,0

    C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R136:Antonio_201 9,8.45,0.16,4.03,0.38,25.87,13,0,0,12.45,0,35.36,0 .28
    C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R137:Antonio_201 9,9.38,0,2.53,0.51,28.21,9.34,0,0.62,11.96,0,37.44 ,0
    C6-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1549:Antonio_2019,9.21 ,0.08,3.15,0,27.32,20.37,0.6,0.6,11.39,0.18,26.54, 0.57
    C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019,9.52,0.56,2.18,0,26.06,13.98,0,0,12.91,0 ,34.79,0
    C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019,9.14,0, 1.72,0.34,26.42,13.43,0.32,0,12.19,0.11,35.95,0.38

    C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R113:Antoni o_2019,8.54,0,3.42,0,34.32,12.61,0.56,0,8.26,0,32. 14,0.16
    C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R131:Antoni o_2019,7.3,0.24,0.94,0.57,31.63,13.18,0.27,0,11.79 ,0,33.23,0.84

    C7-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R37:Antonio_2 019,2.14,1,2.7,0,50.7,31.46,0,0,4.24,0,7.65,0.12

    C7-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R116:Antoni o_2019,5.47,0.42,1.19,0.19,43.87,34.16,0,0,3.74,0, 10.63,0.33

    That's 37.

    Then there's Via Paisiello 111, which is a good match for me, which brings me to 38. (It's C6, and the closest match is Romagna.)

    Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antoni o_2019,6.68,0,0.53,0.35,37.36,17.99,0,0,9.6,0,26.9 8,0.51


    Then there are the two Iron Age "Italian-Greek" samples

    Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019,7.3,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,1 0.54,0,0.43,14.77,0,40.1,0

    I think the other one is R437 but I'm having trouble finding the K12b coordinates. I'll get back to you.*

    I may be missing another one. Jovialis will know and I'm sure chime in when he sees this post.

    Ed. * Here is R437

    C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata,6.45,0,3.03,0,33.19,11.9 4,0,0,11.63,0,33.74,0.02

  19. #994
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    Greeks in Rome cool.

    Distance to: NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
    6.19184141 Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
    6.20208836 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    7.38984438 Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
    9.91380351 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    17.79902525 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019

  20. #995
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    ^^In early Republican Rome already. A lot of the C6 are already modern Italian like.

    ViaPaisiello R111 is an example, as I showed in this thread when I posted my K12b ancient results:
    The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transec - Page 18 (eupedia.com)

    I'm sure there are others; I just checked the ones that came up for me.

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    Angela: Your memory is good :), yes I get close results to R437, not as close to R850, but not totally horrible there. But 6 of the Basilicata samples are distances <=6 and R437 is 4.25 on Dodecad 12B. So there is some Southern Italian/Sicilian people that are similar to moderns from those regions starting at least by the time of R437 (circa 300 AD) and clearly well established by 7th century in Basilicata.

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani_Combined
    2.38784422 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN015
    4.04278369 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN013
    4.24855269 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_650-763CE:VEN005
    4.25480904 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    6.18293620 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_650-800CE:VEN001
    6.18618622 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_650-763CE:VEN006
    6.46209718 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_672-800CE:VEN016
    10.49192547 S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 672-800CE:VEN017
    10.62509765 S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 660-766CE:VEN009
    10.73998603 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN012
    13.22413702 C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean:R850_(Latini)_Ar dea
    13.97620120 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_672-800CE:VEN018
    14.18623981 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_660-766CE:VEN008
    16.22776941 S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN014
    16.65905460 S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 672-800CE:VEN021
    20.24406086 S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 670-775CE:VEN010
    22.79961403 S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 672-800CE:VEN022
    40.14503207 S.Italy_Venosa_VEN002:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_6 50-800CE:VEN002

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    I would not be sure about Latini_o. C6 could really be a Greek.
    Distance to: NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
    6.19184141 Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
    6.20208836 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    7.38984438 Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
    9.91380351 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    11.86266833 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    17.79902525 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019
    Distance to: Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    7.04257055 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    17.46657952 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019


    Distance to: Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    9.99532891 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    21.39397111 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019


    Distance to: Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
    10.26925508 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    19.57308356 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019


    Distance to: Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
    13.83894866 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    18.65988478 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019

  23. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I would not be sure about Latini_o. C6 could really be a Greek.
    Distance to: NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
    6.19184141 Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
    6.20208836 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    7.38984438 Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
    9.91380351 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    11.86266833 C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    17.79902525 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019
    It depends how you define Greek, I suppose.

    Distance to: C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean:R850_(Latini)_Ar dea
    2.94292372 Greek_Kos
    3.34363575 Greek_Rhodes
    4.80929309 Greek_Crete
    5.18691623 Turk_Cyprus
    5.44699917 Greek_Fournoi
    5.80874341 Greek_Icaria
    7.10749604 Greek_Izmir
    7.50240628 Moldovan_Jewish
    7.54348063 Italian_Jews
    7.63675324 Italian_Calabria
    7.74058137 Sephardic_Jews
    7.84169625 Ashkenazi_Jews
    8.69839066 Greek_Cypriot
    10.04992537 Italian_Sicily
    10.57545271 Italian_Campania
    10.65026291 Greek_Lemnos
    10.88449356 Greek_Cappadocia
    11.39714438 Italian_Apulia
    11.47420585 Greek_Foca
    12.08694751 Nusayri_Turkey
    12.19292418 Morocco_Jews
    12.91891636 Italian_Abruzzo
    13.17106678 Turk_West_BlackSea
    13.49063008 Turk_Central_West
    14.27385372 Lebanese_Muslim

    Don't at least people from Crete count as Greeks?

    I don't make mistakes like that.

  24. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It depends how you define Greek, I suppose.

    Distance to: C5_Iron_Age_Eastern_Mediterranean:R850_(Latini)_Ar dea
    2.94292372 Greek_Kos
    3.34363575 Greek_Rhodes
    4.80929309 Greek_Crete
    5.18691623 Turk_Cyprus
    5.44699917 Greek_Fournoi
    5.80874341 Greek_Icaria
    7.10749604 Greek_Izmir
    7.50240628 Moldovan_Jewish
    7.54348063 Italian_Jews
    7.63675324 Italian_Calabria
    7.74058137 Sephardic_Jews
    7.84169625 Ashkenazi_Jews
    8.69839066 Greek_Cypriot
    10.04992537 Italian_Sicily
    10.57545271 Italian_Campania
    10.65026291 Greek_Lemnos
    10.88449356 Greek_Cappadocia
    11.39714438 Italian_Apulia
    11.47420585 Greek_Foca
    12.08694751 Nusayri_Turkey
    12.19292418 Morocco_Jews
    12.91891636 Italian_Abruzzo
    13.17106678 Turk_West_BlackSea
    13.49063008 Turk_Central_West
    14.27385372 Lebanese_Muslim

    Don't at least people from Crete count as Greeks?

    I don't make mistakes like that.
    Unless he totally lacks Italic ancestry like Cretans do I suppose he could be a Greek.
    Distance to: C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    14.10277987 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019

  25. #1000
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    It's probably an overgeneralization, but I think Calabrians may turn out to be the most "ancient Greek like" Italians.

    That will make my hubby very happy. :)

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