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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #976
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The new paper on the origin and distribution of Ydna J1-M267 provides, I think, more evidence for informed analysis.

    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...709#post621709


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    @Jovialis,

    Its not my main focus, in fact I only become this Levantine in Italians rep when discussing with this crowd. Also I didn’t say it’s definitely 20% range of 5-20%.

    By counter arguement why are all genetic companies like Ftdna, MyHeritage, 23&Me and the old Nat Geo calculator give this Middle Eastern?

    Your aware that the Ivy League schools are in contact with him? He actually isn’t an amateur regardless of what you think of Davidski.

    This is why I dislike autosomal dna, because a lot of it is subjective and bias, i’m an very biased not going to lie about that. When it comes to Uniparental its much more clear cut.
    The vast majority of the "middle eastern" I have seen is usually Iran and Caucasus-related. Thus this is very old (possibly EBA) excess CHG that their modeling adds to their "Italian" components; which is usually about 4 or 5%. We need to connect the dots; Sarno et al. 2021 shows there is very old CHG/IN in southern Italy.


    Only a minority of "middle eastern" can usually be broadly associated with the levant region, or within the range of a single percentage point. Which I have speculated could be more attributed to Moorish and Saracen admixture from the Middle Ages. FYI, the levant area is also counted as "North African" in 23andme.


    So what if he is in contact with them? His calculator is not giving the accurate modeling, which is not cohesive with what the academics are publishing. I have been in contact with several professionals as well, but that doesn't make me an expert. Like I said, these kinds of calculators are better for broad analysis, not precise analysis, because it clearly doesn't jive well with what the actual experts are saying.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The new paper on the origin and distribution of Ydna J1-M267 provides, I think, more evidence for informed analysis.

    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...709#post621709
    It’s not really a direct evidence, I use evidence based on ancient samples and where are clades are currently found today, who brought them. J1 is usually either 6th or 7th and sometimes 8th haplogroup of depending the region or province when looked analytically. I know which J1 branches we see in Italians and across Europe and the Middle East. In the response I gave to Leopoldo, rougly half of the J1 in the Peninsula is of the Classical Middle East variety, the other half is not as clear cut. The most common branch of the other half might be Greek in origin and came in with some J2 in Early Bronze Age, other clades there is clear answer. The 2 best examples are J-FGC8216 and J-L829, where we see young TMRCA’s, we see clear Middle Eastern, Mediterranean Europe and Central and North European branches, so success branches in Roman Empire, and could have been in Italy or Iberian Peninsula very early in Iron Age via Phoenicians and spread with people who were autosomally Italian or Spanish. Then there could have been some who came from a direct ancestor from the Levant. The ultimate source would still be the same, and both aforementioned clades are non trival in distribution. I personally find this exciting that you can see this, and its not only ancient Levantine Y’s I’m interested in, would like to see the spread of Greek paternal lineages, Italic, etc... in the Antonio et al. paper you had several Celts too who settled in Roman Italy, definitely there was some Uniparental leftover as well. We’re getting more papers from ancient Italy, so its going to be exciting.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Jovialis

    Look we see this completely different, if you choose not to see the Levantine its on you, for me its been a fact like the sky is blue since 2016 when I got my first ever results back from Nat Geo.

    Maybe the Calcs plus the Uniparental evidence one day will become clear to you as many others see it. There was another poster whom I always argued with over similar discussions, now doesn't deny it anymore.

    We'll see what 2021 brings us

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    Italians in general are well aware that the Roman Empire was multi-ethnic and that there may have been some legacies from the imperial era in Italy. Of course, many Italians are also ignorant and still think that the Latins or Italics were Nordic gods compared to the other populations of pre-Roman Italy. In any case, uniparental markers on mitochondrial or Y chromosomal DNA represent only one ancestor of the many ancestors from which a person is descended. Ethnicity estimates of commercial companies are games. To be clear for me everyone is free to do and think what he wants, but it is naive to think that an Italian can change his identity on the basis of his genetic results, or because he discovers he has a Y-DNA that exists in the Levant he begins to feel more Levantine than Italian, just as if he discovers he has a Y-DNA that is more frequent among Germanic populations he can begin to feel more German or Scandinavian than Italian. The Italian demography has changed a lot in the last 150 years because of internal migrations, and in the last 30-40 years it is changing because of external ones, and it will change again in the next years. Despite this, regional identity is still strong in Italy, even when a person has ancestors from different regions of Italy. There are many Italians born in a region other than that of their parents' origin who identify with their place of birth rather than their parents' place of origin. Identity is first and foremost a cultural process. Changing identity on the basis of genetic data may happen in the new world, or it may happen to those of mixed ancestry or to migrants in a completely different context, but it can hardly happen in Europe. Very rarely I do see it happening in Italy in the real life.

    The interest in these topics should be purified by personal research into one's own identity, which only ends up influencing the judgement on what are the conclusions or hypotheses of the research. Population genetics produces hypotheses, genetic studies rarely have the smoking gun. And population genetics, including studies of the much overrated Ivy League schools, is much criticised by other scholars for its approach and method, which is often reminiscent of old 19th century theories. Pointing out that southern Europeans have more contact with West Asia, Levant and North Africa, which given the geography is like reinventing the wheel, feeds the idea that the purest Europeans are northern Europeans, nineteenth-century idea that it was the geneticists themselves who revived. So it is absolutely no surprise that he may be in contact with Ivy League Schools. Because more and more we see in discussions Nordicists going hand in hand with migrationists and orientalists.

    Having said that, a few words should also be said about the G25 and Italy. As far as Italy is concerned, many areas are still uncovered, Liguria is based on a single individual probably from the Savona area, Emilia and Romagna are completely missing, and it is evident that the Alpine and Prealpine areas are oversampled compared to the Po Valley. The view it can give is still very partial. Only in a few years' time will we have a more accurate view, although it cannot be taken for granted, because Italian geneticists have suffered from circular argumentation from the very beginning, as this can be seen in their work, and from Cavalli-Sforza's initial wrong approach. So, if even geneticists are not exempt from mistakes, why should we believe amateurs who have never had a neutral point of view? When he said that modern samples were not representative and reliable he was referring only and exclusively to a few samples that he was interested in. Those who have really a neutral approach, rare even to find among geneticists, are interested in the accuracy of all, not just the part they are attached to for personal reasons.



    Present pasts in the archaeology of genetics, identity, and migration in Europe: a critical essay


    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00438243.2019.1627907

  6. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    @Jovialis

    Look we see this completely different, if you choose not to see the Levantine its on you, for me its been a fact like the sky is blue since 2016 when I got my first ever results back from Nat Geo.

    Maybe the Calcs plus the Uniparental evidence one day will become clear to you as many others see it. There was another poster whom I always argued with over similar discussions, now doesn't deny it anymore.

    We'll see what 2021 brings us
    Yeah, we do see it completely differently. But I do not choose to not see, what is not there. I already told you my take on it.

    As for Nat Geo, my results did not indicate Levantine for me either:



    Originally, I thought it shows Italian being augmented by Norman or Lombard input.

    Regardless, of direct-to-consumer models, I do not see it in Sarno et al. 2021. So I don't know what to tell you.

    The only explanation I can think of is non-steppe CHG pulse in EBA for excess Caucasus-related ancestry in South Europeans.

    Approximately a percent or less of Levant/North African related to Moors/Saracens. But I guess that's too little for them to even use in the modeling.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 25-03-21 at 02:23.

  7. #982
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Yeah, we do see it completely differently. But I do not choose to not see, what is not there. I already told you my take on it.

    As for Nat Geo, my results did not indicate Levantine for me either:



    Originally, I thought is shows Italian being augmented by Norman or Lombard input.

    Regardless, of direct-to-consumer models, I do not see it in Sarno et al. 2021. So I don't know what to tell you.

    The only explanation I can think of is non-steppe CHG pulse in EBA for excess Caucasus-related ancestry in South Europeans.

    Approximately a percent or less of Levant/North African related to Moors/Saracens. But I guess that's too little for them to even use in the modeling.
    The Nat Geo modeling sort of reminds me of the Dodecad Ancient Rome Test modeling:



    Distance to: C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti
    1.58104396 Italian_Abruzzo
    2.75294388 Italian_Campania
    3.44476414 Italian_Apulia
    3.51955963 Italian_Sicily
    4.59958694 Greek_Lemnos
    5.77788023 Greek_Foca
    5.79443699 Italian_Calabria
    6.31964398 Greek_Central
    6.34653449 Ashkenazi_Jews
    6.48418846 Greek_Athens
    6.79745541 Greek_Izmir
    6.82921665 Moldavian_Jewish
    7.21295363 Greek_Fournoi
    7.33743034 Italian_Marche
    7.44902678 Italian_Lazio
    8.33485453 Greek_Crete
    8.52562021 Greek_Peloponnese
    9.90076765 Albanian
    10.25443319 Italian_Jews
    10.40373010 Greek_Icaria
    10.48913247 Greek_Thrace
    10.63477785 Greek_Kos
    10.78041279 Italian_Romagna
    11.10206287 Greek_Thessaly
    11.12278742 Greek_Thessaloniki


    Distance to: C7_Late_Antiquity_European:R106_Crypta_Balbi
    5.97977424 Bavarian_German
    6.44240638 French_Northeast
    6.67700532 French_North
    8.07205674 Dutch
    8.51226174 English_South
    8.62562462 French_Northwest
    9.14299732 Hungarian_Transdanubia_Budapest
    9.14821294 English_mixed
    9.15852062 Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
    9.71460756 Hungarian
    9.84938069 English_North
    10.22175621 German_Northwest
    10.25785065 Scottish
    10.46867709 Hungarian_Alfold
    10.67980805 German
    10.96936188 Slovenian
    11.45865175 Irish
    11.66404304 Hungarian_North
    12.19399032 Icelandic
    12.21720508 Croat
    12.47612520 Czech
    13.02931694 Bosnian
    13.07887228 Serb
    13.37731288 Danish
    13.76011264 Moldavian_North

  8. #983
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    one to one ... vs R969 Tivoli Palazzo Cianti (Date range: 1600 CE - 1700 CE)



    Edit : ... wrong thread, ... but it's OK :) ... there aren't many R samples on that site, ... get the Kit # !

  9. #984
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Search for Shared DNA Segments in Two Raw Data Files.

    Salento vs R437 / R850 (single segment matches only ... MTA )

    ... my settings:

    Single Segment Matches of length at least 100 tested SNPs
    Report Double Segment Matches of length at least 250 tested SNPs
    Treat No-Calls as Matching SNPs? no
    ............. :


    ... vs R437


    ... vs R850



    https://www.math.mun.ca/~dapike/FF23utils/pair-comp.php

  10. #985
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    one to one: R1 vs R437 & R850

    R1 (# AG4512653) vs R437 (# SA5994979)




    R1 (# AG4512653) vs R850 (# SN3426822)


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