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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's probably an overgeneralization, but I think Calabrians may turn out to be the most "ancient Greek like" Italians.

    That will make my hubby very happy. :)
    All of the Greeks left Southern Italy for Rome (1.5M people there). Just kidding, I am sure they will.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    All of the Ionic colonies in Sicily are from Euboea, and the Doric ones are from Corinth, Megara, Rhodes and Crete. The biggest demographic change came with Magna Greacians, as Syracuse was one of the most populous Greek city in Classical antiquity. But others contributed too. The greatest component but not the absolute majority is the ancient Greek ancestry, IMO. But this nearly complete replacement is very exaggerated.

    Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus rarely came to Sicily, as for Moors, Arbereshe and Normans, their contribution each was a 1 digit percentage. I have all the statistics for Arbereshe, they don't extend 3%, and were slightly above 1% in 15th century.

    IMO, there might have been an ancient Greek-like population which poured into Sicily, possibly related with southern mainland Italians which pushed native Sicilians really close to Minoans. I believe the Bell Beaker Sicily sample might be what Sicilians were right before the Greek colonization, from which time frame was it taken?


    "We detected Iranian-related ancestry in Sicily by the MiddleBronze Age 1800–1500 bc, consistent with the directional shift of these individuals towards Minoans and Mycenaeans in the PCA(Fig. 2b); in distal modelling, Sicily_MBA requires 15.7±2.6% o fIran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic-related ancestry (P=0.060; Fig. 4,Supplementary Table 14). Sources closer in time always require Minoan_Lassithi or Anatolia_EBA as a source (SupplementaryTable 21). Modern southern Italians harbour Iranian-related ancestry71, and our results show that this ancestry must have reached Sicily before the period of Greek political control when Sicily and southern Italy were part of Magna Graecia."

    "We modelled Sicily_LBA as 81.5±1.6% Anatolia_Neolithic,5.9±1.6% WHG and 12.7±2.1% Yamnaya_Samara (Fig. 4b,Supplementary Table 14). Although this distal modelling providesno hint of Iranian-related ancestry, modelling with sources closer intime supports Sicily_LBA having such ancestry through groups suchas Anatolia_EBA or Minoan_Lassithi (Supplementary Table 22)."

    "Our distal modelling of modern Sicilians requires not only thatthe two eastern ancestry sources that we have shown were presentby the Bronze Age—10.0±2.6% Yamnaya_Samara and 19.9±1.4%Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic—but also a predominant component of North African ancestry (46.9±5.6% Morocco_LN). These results are consistent with most ofthe North-African-related ancestry having come into Sicily duringthe Iron Age and afterwards—a scenario that is further supportedby our observation that modern Sicilians form a clade with Ibiza_Phoenician (P=0.060) and the three most recent Sardinian individuals in our time series (Supplementary Information). Althoughthese results are consistent in principle with a nearly completeancestry turnover on the island since the Bronze Age, we cannotrule out the possibility that Bronze Age Sicilians made a more modest ancestry contribution to modern Sicilians."

    This was not the case with Campia, Apulia and Basilicata. Most of their ancestry comes from Italic people.

    What do think is % of the 900BC Sicilians in modern Sicilians?
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I don't believe it though. Modern Sicilians are closer to Bell Beaker Sicily than Cretans are to Minoans, I wonder why no one mentions a large scale replacement there?
    As for Southern Italy, South Apulia had only 2 cities compared to numerous native settlements, how could they contribute more than 15%?

    I find 50% more than enough for Sicilians in terms of ancient Greek impact overall, Calabria might have more.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I wonder what is the old Greek component of Sicilians. Earlier on I gave 40% to 50% as an assumption.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Campania, Apulia and Basilicata have significantly more known native settlements than Greek settlements.
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Grecia#Basilicata
    Lucania has 6 Greek cities, one of which was heavily mixed with natives (hellenized).
    While Apulia had 4 Greek cities which were heavily mixed with natives and two others originally founded by the ancient Greeks.

    I believe the Magna Greacia impact goes this way:
    Calabria>Sicily>Campania>Lucania>Apulia

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Unless he totally lacks Italic ancestry like Cretans do I suppose he could be a Greek.
    Distance to: C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    14.10277987 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019
    R850 is from 500-800BC, not a Greek.

    300BC-400BC and 700-800BC Campanian Greek samples cluster with Aegean BA.

    The other one R437 has an Italic Y-DNA, he could be a mixed with Greek. Again I saw one Bulgarian-like Early Medieval Slavic sample I don't go around using it as a source to estimate the Slavic ancestry in Modern Greek. Coincidences can happen. He is quite close to TAQ021 and ETR013 Etruscan. Who were those I don't remember?
    Distance to: C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    1.47349924 Prenestini_o_IA:R437:Antonio_2019
    1.57206870 Szolad40:Amorim_2018
    2.57128373 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R52:Antonio_2019
    2.63738507 VEN005:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    3.23655681 C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R131:Antoni o_2019
    3.62056625 C5-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R122:An tonio_2019
    3.65334094 TAQ021:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    3.65811427 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R56:Antonio_2019
    4.52726187 C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R113:Antoni o_2019
    4.75920161 C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R836:Antonio_2019
    5.00437808 C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R49:Antonio_20 19
    5.15021359 ETR013:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    5.17129578 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019
    5.22837451 C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R35:Antonio_2019
    5.38457984 C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R47:Antonio_20 19
    5.41330768 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R1290:Antonio_2019
    5.41936343 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R117:An tonio_2019
    5.92514979 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
    6.29974603 VEN015:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.60195426 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R118:An tonio_2019
    6.65120290 Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
    6.74048960 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
    6.75876468 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R53:Antonio_2019
    6.85132834 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R59:Antonio_2019
    6.86230282 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019

    Distance to: C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    4.78842354 Italian_Campania
    6.09424319 Italian_Abruzzo
    6.53940364 Italian_Sicily
    6.86971615 Italian_Calabria
    8.29677046 Ashkenazi_Jews
    8.48859847 Italian_Marche
    8.83920245 Italian_Apulia
    9.52056196 Moldovan_Jewish
    9.63911303 Italian_Lazio
    9.86986829 Italian_Jews
    10.12004447 Greek_Lemnos
    10.62487647 Greek_Fournoi
    10.75777393 Greek_Izmir
    10.76664293 Greek_Foca
    10.97605576 Greek_Athens
    11.12096219 Greek_Central
    11.12913743 Greek_Icaria
    11.40172794 Sephardic_Jews
    11.63032244 Italian_Romagna
    11.74761678 Greek_Crete
    12.38374338 French_Corsica
    12.50016000 Greek_Kos
    12.84365602 Greek_Rhodes
    12.92229856 Morocco_Jews
    13.22422398 Greek_Peloponnese

  3. #1003
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    Never meant to imply that I believe all the "Eastern Med", or perhaps more accurately, Anatolian Bronze and Iron Age, or Aegean Iron Age first went to Southern Italy with the Greek settlers and then northwards.

    I'm pretty sure some would have gone directly to Italy, certainly in the Imperial Age, but perhaps even in the Iron Age. Why not, after all?

    My rather tongue in cheek example and comparison had to do with the fact that Latins, and IRON AGE people who leaned more toward the Eastern Med but were already in Central Italy in the Iron Age, can pretty well explain the genetics of a person of North-Central ancestry. I'm at a respectable distance to some Italics and Etruscans as well.

    As for Southern Italians, did everyone just ignore all the results showing how close a lot of Southern Italians are to R437?

    It amazes me that when the subject was the Balkans, the Near Eastern cluster, which wasn't Levantine, btw, was NOT used to model Modern Balkanites, but when people are modeling Central to South Italians, or even North and North/Central Italians, they insist that every single C3 and C4 sample found in Imperial Rome had to belong to people who came to Rome to settle down, and their descendants blended into the Italian gene pool. Some, doubtless, but ALL? None of them could have been slaves who died without manumission and issue, sailors who got sick in port, merchants who went home? No one has even done any analysis to see where they lived most of their lives, i.e. if they were locals.

    As for the following comment, maybe, maybe not. The first colonies of Magna Graecia, 8th century B.C. were in Calabria and Napoli. Do you know how close it is from Napoli to the border of Lazio? I'll tell you. :) If you walk it, 18 hours. If you take a boat up the coast, easier and less tiring, and a shorter trip. I will be very interested to see in detail how close the Greeks from Campania were to the Iron Age Italian_Greeks. It will also be interesting to see the Iron Age Sicilians, who according to the abstract which was posted, replicate the heterogeneity of Bronze Age Sicily.


    " I believe the Magna Greacia impact goes this way:
    Calabria>Sicily>Campania>Lucania>Apulia, "







    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02;633262

    300BC-400BC and 700-800BC Campanian Greek samples cluster with Aegean BA.

    The other one R437 has an Italic Y-DNA, he could be a mixed with Greek. Again I saw one Bulgarian-like Early Medieval Slavic sample I don't go around using it as a source to estimate the Slavic ancestry in Modern Greek. Coincidences can happen. He is quite close to TAQ021 and ETR013 Etruscan. Who were those I don't remember?
    [TABLE="class: distances"
    [TR]
    [TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
    [TH="align: left"]C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata[/TH]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]1.47349924[/TD]
    [TD]Prenestini_o_IA:R437:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #35FF00, align: right"]1.57206870[/TD]
    [TD]Szolad40:Amorim_2018[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #57FF00, align: right"]2.57128373[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R52:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #5AFF00, align: right"]2.63738507[/TD]
    [TD]VEN005:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #6EFF00, align: right"]3.23655681[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R131:Antoni o_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #7BFF00, align: right"]3.62056625[/TD]
    [TD]C5-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R122:An tonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #7CFF00, align: right"]3.65334094[/TD]
    [TD]TAQ021:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #7CFF00, align: right"]3.65811427[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R56:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #9AFF00, align: right"]4.52726187[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R113:Antoni o_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #A2FF00, align: right"]4.75920161[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R836:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #AAFF00, align: right"]5.00437808[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R49:Antonio_20 19[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #AFFF00, align: right"]5.15021359[/TD]
    [TD]ETR013:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #B0FF00, align: right"]5.17129578[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #B2FF00, align: right"]5.22837451[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R35:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #B7FF00, align: right"]5.38457984[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R47:Antonio_20 19[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #B8FF00, align: right"]5.41330768[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R1290:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #B8FF00, align: right"]5.41936343[/TD]
    [TD]C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R117:An tonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]5.92514979[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #D6FF00, align: right"]6.29974603[/TD]
    [TD]VEN015:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #E0FF00, align: right"]6.60195426[/TD]
    [TD]C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R118:An tonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #E2FF00, align: right"]6.65120290[/TD]
    [TD]Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #E5FF00, align: right"]6.74048960[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #E6FF00, align: right"]6.75876468[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R53:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #E9FF00, align: right"]6.85132834[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R59:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="bgcolor: #E9FF00, align: right"]6.86230282[/TD]
    [TD]C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    Distance to: C6_Iron_Age_Mediterranean:R437_(Latin_Prenestini_T ribe)_Palestrina_Selicata
    4.78842354 Italian_Campania
    6.09424319 Italian_Abruzzo
    6.53940364 Italian_Sicily
    6.86971615 Italian_Calabria
    8.29677046 Ashkenazi_Jews
    8.48859847 Italian_Marche
    8.83920245 Italian_Apulia
    9.52056196 Moldovan_Jewish
    9.63911303 Italian_Lazio
    9.86986829 Italian_Jews
    10.12004447 Greek_Lemnos
    10.62487647 Greek_Fournoi
    10.75777393 Greek_Izmir
    10.76664293 Greek_Foca
    10.97605576 Greek_Athens
    11.12096219 Greek_Central
    11.12913743 Greek_Icaria
    11.40172794 Sephardic_Jews
    11.63032244 Italian_Romagna
    11.74761678 Greek_Crete
    12.38374338 French_Corsica
    12.50016000 Greek_Kos
    12.84365602 Greek_Rhodes
    12.92229856 Morocco_Jews
    13.22422398 Greek_Peloponnese
    How can you possibly know that R850 wasn't a Greek? What if he was from a Greek polis in Anatolia? Or perhaps he was from Crete. He's certainly damn close to the modern people of Crete and Kos.

    You just can't admit your modeling was wrong.

    The point is that both R437 and R850 prove that "Eastern Med ancestry" was already in Rome in the Iron Age and can be found in Latin burial contexts. Do you know how few samples we have who are Iron Age Latin Romans? Yet two samples show that ancestry.

    This isn't some freak coincidence of one sample out of dozens and dozens.

    The Etruscans may have been different. They may have admixed less. We'll have to see when we get more samples. Or maybe it all has to do with more proximity to the south. That I don't know, but time will tell.

    You also haven't admitted you were wrong about saying MOST of the Imperial samples were south and south east of modern Southern Italians. These are the mistakes people make when they don't know the samples inside/out.

    Nor have you addressed the fact that the C3 and C4 disappear by the latter part of the Imperial Age. So, why give them equal weight to the C5/C6?

    You'll believe what you want to believe, just like your buddies; doesn't mean that your logic can't be shown to be faulty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How can you possibly know that R850 wasn't a Greek? What if he was from a Greek polis in Anatolia? Or perhaps he was from Crete. He's certainly damn close to the modern people of Crete and Kos.

    You just can't admit your modeling was wrong.

    The point is that both R437 and R850 prove that "Eastern Med ancestry" was already in Rome in the Iron Age and can be found in Latin burial contexts. Do you know how few samples we have who are Iron Age Latin Romans? Yet two samples show that ancestry.

    This isn't some freak coincidence of one sample out of dozens and dozens.

    The Etruscans may have been different. They may have admixed less. We'll have to see when we get more samples. Or maybe it all has to do with more proximity to the south. That I don't know, but time will tell.

    You also haven't admitted you were wrong about saying MOST of the Imperial samples were south and south east of modern Southern Italians. These are the mistakes people make when they don't know the samples inside/out.

    Nor have you addressed the fact that the C3 and C4 disappear by the latter part of the Imperial Age. So, why give them equal weight to the C5/C6?

    You'll believe what you want to believe, just like your buddies; doesn't mean that your logic can't be shown to be faulty.

    I don't have hard time admitting I am wrong. If the Hellenistic Era Italian-Greeks are mostly Cretan-like or close to it I will openly admit I was wrong. (if I am around here because maybe we wont find out that in 10 years or more)
    As for Imperial Romans most of them are south of Italians in the PCA, unless I have an eye problem:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...600&carousel=1

    And I don't find it unbelievable that there were Greeks in Rome before the Imperial period. There were 3 or 4 Northern African admixed Etruscans, given the geography and cultural difference that is way more unlikely for that to happen than some Greek stepping foot in Rome. It's just that I don't believe that particular sample was Greek.
    I would be surprised if we did not find any Greek sample in Rome before the Imperial period.

    Have you ever taken in consideration maybe the reason that the "tail" disappeared is because they became more mixed the native Italic people? Maybe just saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I don't have hard time admitting I am wrong. If the Hellenistic Era Italian-Greeks are mostly Cretan-like or close to it I will openly admit I was wrong. (if I am around here because maybe we wont find out that in 10 years or more)
    As for Imperial Romans most of them are south of Italians in the PCA, unless I have an eye problem:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...600&carousel=1

    And I don't find it unbelievable that there were Greeks in Rome before the Imperial period. There were 3 or 4 Northern African admixed Etruscans, given the geography and cultural difference that is way more unlikely for that to happen than some Greek stepping foot in Rome. It's just that I don't believe that particular sample was Greek.
    I would be surprised if we did not find any Greek sample in Rome before the Imperial period.

    Have you ever taken in consideration maybe the reason that the "tail" disappeared is because they became more mixed the native Italic people? Maybe just saying.
    When are you going to stop trying to put words in my mouth? Those are called straw man arguments.

    I neither said nor implied that all the Greeks who came to Italy would be Cretan like. You're virtually saying none were; it was some freakish once in a blue moon coincidence.

    I also never said that none of the C3 and C4 people admixed into the population. It's another straw man argument. ALL of them, however? Then, all of a sudden they disappear from the record?

    Did it ever occur to you that they disappeared because people from that part of the world were not all settlers, but a good number were merchants, sailors, artisans, and as Rome became less important they left to go to, say, Constantinople?

    However, let's by all means explore all the possibilities. Do you think I would care if half my husband's ancestry came from Syrians or Lebanese or Jews? I feel much closer to Jews than to Northern Europeans, I can tell you.

    It just makes no sense to me that the only people from the Empire who went to Toscana, for example, were from the Levant. No Anatolians, no Greeks, no Gauls, no Germanics, just Levantines went to Etruria and Lazio during the Imperium. That makes sense to you?

    I gave you all the coordinates for the Imperial Age samples, grouped and labeled by cluster. Since you like modeling, why don't you try to model the modern Southern Italians, say, by using combinations of those clusters plus Italics plus something like Sicilian Bronze Age, until we get Southern Italian Bronze and Iron Age samples. I don't know what you'll get, and it may not reflect reality, but it would be interesting to see. What I know for sure is that the results will probably be more accurate than just taking an average of all the Imperial samples. What I know for sure is that it is illogical to propose that only C3 and C4 people were part of the admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It just makes no sense to me that the only people from the Empire who went to Toscana, for example, were from the Levant. No Anatolians, no Greeks, no Gauls, no Germanics, just Levantines went to Etruria and Lazio during the Imperium.
    I don't think anyone is saying that. Levantines were one of the groups, for some time probably the main one, but only one of the many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying that. Levantines were one of the groups, for some time probably the main one, but only one of the many.
    The main group?! Thats just idiotic.

    The majority found in this study was C6 and C5 for the imperial era.

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    Instead, two-thirds of Imperial individuals (31 out of 48) belong to two major clusters (C5 and C6) that overlap in PCA with central and eastern Mediterranean populations, such as those from southern and central Italy, Greece, Cyprus, and Malta (Fig. 4B). An additional quarter (13 out of 48) of the sampled Imperial Romans form a cluster (C4) defined by high amounts of haplotype sharing with Levantine and Near Eastern populations, whereas no pre-Imperial individuals appear in this cluster (Fig. 4AC).

    The number in later eras is a big fat ZERO.

    Inconvenience of fact is ruining your little game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Instead, two-thirds of Imperial individuals (31 out of 48) belong to two major clusters (C5 and C6) that overlap in PCA with central and eastern Mediterranean populations, such as those from southern and central Italy, Greece, Cyprus, and Malta (Fig. 4B). An additional quarter (13 out of 48) of the sampled Imperial Romans form a cluster (C4) defined by high amounts of haplotype sharing with Levantine and Near Eastern populations, whereas no pre-Imperial individuals appear in this cluster (Fig. 4AC).
    The number in later eras is a big fat ZERO.
    Inconvenience of fact is ruining your little game.


    We were talking about who went to Toscana during the Empire. If you manage to calm down later you will realize pre-Imperial samples have nothing to do with what was being discussed.

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    I forgot which idiot wanted to invoke occam's razor. Well, applying some convoluted trajectory of everyone in Italy somehow all being 100% Italic, who mixed with solely Levantines, and then Germanics, is not using occam's razor.

    Rather the simplest explanation is that this ancestry was there in Italy and formed around the Iron Age by local sources (R1+Aegean_IA). Which is why there are people in Italy since the IA approximate modern Italians. That would be applying Occam's Razor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post


    We were talking about who went to Toscana during the Empire. If you manage to calm down later you will realize pre-Imperial samples have nothing to do with what was being discussed.
    There is ZERO C4 in Imperial Tuscany.

    Four were C6, one was C5, and one was C3.

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    Also, this thread is about Rome.

    Lazio was also in discussion in the very post you were referring to.

    At least read what people are saying to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    When are you going to stop trying to put words in my mouth? Those are called straw man arguments.

    I neither said nor implied that all the Greeks who came to Italy would be Cretan like. You're virtually saying none were; it was some freakish once in a blue moon coincidence.
    I have said before that some East Med Greek people probably did exist in Magna Graecia just like some Italic outliers too. I was wrong about dismissing him immediately as a Greek but the probability of finding a Cretan-like Greek in Rome by the time of 500BC to 800BC is slim. I doubt these genetic profiles were even common in Crete and Aegean Islands by time of 500BC-800BC.

    I also never said that none of the C3 and C4 people admixed into the population. It's another straw man argument. ALL of them, however? Then, all of a sudden they disappear from the record?
    Again I do not know the timing aside from the fact that they are from Imperial Rome. "Not all" is a vague saying. 98% is not all too. But how was the Southern Italian cluster formed in Imperial Rome/Late Antiquity? Ancient Greeks mixed with Italic people in Campania as we have seen in the leaked PCA does not match it. And why are Central Italians significantly more southern shifted than Latins and Etruscans even after some negligible Germanic admixture? Of course the amount of genetic influence is debatable.


    Did it ever occur to you that they disappeared because people from that part of the world were not all settlers, but a good number were merchants, sailors, artisans, and as Rome became less important they left to go to, say, Constantinople?
    To a certain extend yes. Also that rural zones are more likely to get hit by plagues and wars. Rome was sacked by Visigoths after all.

    However, let's by all means explore all the possibilities. Do you think I would care if half my husband's ancestry came from Syrians or Lebanese or Jews? I feel much closer to Jews than to Northern Europeans, I can tell you.
    I never implied so.

    It just makes no sense to me that the only people from the Empire who went to Toscana, for example, were from the Levant. No Anatolians, no Greeks, no Gauls, no Germanics, just Levantines went to Etruria and Lazio during the Imperium. That makes sense to you?
    No it does not, they are shifted in three direction towards Anatolia and Armenia, some few towards Northern Africa and the bulk seem towards Levant for whatever reason.
    I gave you all the coordinates for the Imperial Age samples, grouped and labeled by cluster. Since you like modeling, why don't you try to model the modern Southern Italians, say, by using combinations of those clusters plus Italics plus something like Sicilian Bronze Age, until we get Southern Italian Bronze and Iron Age samples. I don't know what you'll get, and it may not reflect reality, but it would be interesting to see. What I know for sure is that the results will probably be more accurate than just taking an average of all the Imperial samples. What I know for sure is that it is illogical to propose that only C3 and C4 people were part of the admixture.
    When I said most Imperial Romans are South of Southern Italians I was talking for the 2019 Imperial Rome paper that I quoted. I haven't run yet the samples (expect the Greek ones).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post


    We were talking about who went to Toscana during the Empire. If you manage to calm down later you will realize pre-Imperial samples have nothing to do with what was being discussed.
    READ!

    This excerpt is specifically about the imperial era. Jesus Christ!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Anthrogenica is a disease of the mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    When are you going to stop trying to put words in my mouth? Those are called straw man arguments.

    I neither said nor implied that all the Greeks who came to Italy would be Cretan like. You're virtually saying none were; it was some freakish once in a blue moon coincidence.

    I also never said that none of the C3 and C4 people admixed into the population. It's another straw man argument. ALL of them, however? Then, all of a sudden they disappear from the record?

    Did it ever occur to you that they disappeared because people from that part of the world were not all settlers, but a good number were merchants, sailors, artisans, and as Rome became less important they left to go to, say, Constantinople?

    However, let's by all means explore all the possibilities. Do you think I would care if half my husband's ancestry came from Syrians or Lebanese or Jews? I feel much closer to Jews than to Northern Europeans, I can tell you.

    It just makes no sense to me that the only people from the Empire who went to Toscana, for example, were from the Levant. No Anatolians, no Greeks, no Gauls, no Germanics, just Levantines went to Etruria and Lazio during the Imperium. That makes sense to you?

    I gave you all the coordinates for the Imperial Age samples, grouped and labeled by cluster. Since you like modeling, why don't you try to model the modern Southern Italians, say, by using combinations of those clusters plus Italics plus something like Sicilian Bronze Age, until we get Southern Italian Bronze and Iron Age samples. I don't know what you'll get, and it may not reflect reality, but it would be interesting to see. What I know for sure is that the results will probably be more accurate than just taking an average of all the Imperial samples. What I know for sure is that it is illogical to propose that only C3 and C4 people were part of the admixture.
    Personally, I have quite a number of Jewish friends IRL. I like their history, I find the Old Testament to be fascinating; I respect their culture. It would not bother me either to have Levantine admixture. Nevertheless, I doubt it would anything beyond a very marginal percentage; less than a percent even. If it happens to be more than that, I would not care either. However, I find the model I have put forward, of R1-like ancestry, combined with the legacy of Magna Graecia to be compelling. To me, this does justice to reality.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post


    We were talking about who went to Toscana during the Empire. If you manage to calm down later you will realize pre-Imperial samples have nothing to do with what was being discussed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    There is ZERO C4 in Imperial Tuscany.
    Four were C6, one was C5, and one was C3.
    How the authors of the Etruscan paper went from that to the graph they posted is incredible and ludicrous.

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    michaelis anthrogenica

    Originally Posted by Yupi
    Try modeling Imperial Romans with Levantines, MLBA Syrians, Classical Greeks and West Med Italic people and see what happens.



    Wait until Hellenistic Pompeiians, Greeks, and Western Anatolians are released and you can try the same thing. The East Med profile in Southern Italy will predate the Roman Empire. I'm telling you guys you need to prepare for this inevitability because it's coming at you like a bullet train.





    p.s
    we will see time will tell not that i personally care
    that much if they would have east med ancestery yes or no
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ihype02;633285]I have said before that some East Med Greek people probably did exist in Magna Graecia just like some Italic outliers too. I was wrong about dismissing him immediately as a Greek but the probability of finding a Cretan-like Greek in Rome by the time of 500BC to 800BC is slim. I doubt these genetic profiles were even common in Crete and Aegean Islands by time of 500BC-800BC.
    There's no way you can possibly know that. We have no idea what the people of Crete were like in the Iron Age. You think they also were massively settled by people from the Levant? My God, how were there any people left to rebel against the Romans?

    Again I do not know the timing aside from the fact that they are from Imperial Rome. "Not all" is a vague saying. 98% is not all too. But how was the Southern Italian cluster formed in Imperial Rome/Late Antiquity? Ancient Greeks mixed with Italic people in Campania as we have seen in the leaked PCA does not match it. And why are Central Italians significantly more southern shifted than Latins and Etruscans even after some negligible Germanic admixture? Of course the amount of genetic influence is debatable.
    Yes, Tuscans and Romans of the Modern Era are more southern shifted than the Etruscans and the Latins. No one is denying it. However, to say that there was this massive migration of Levantines to Etruria followed by a big German migration makes no sense. The y Dna doesn't support it, for one thing, and neither do the samples they're using, as Jovialis has pointed out. This is what comes of averaging a small number of samples to model historical genetic change. Hell, even the authors waffle, saying they don't know whether the admixture was Levantine or Anatolian. That's a pretty big difference.

    As to the Roman paper which is the subject of this thread, as Jovialis has pointed out again and again, only a quarter of the Imperial samples are from the Near East. Then there are two C3 samples. How many times do people need to see the authors' own words before it sinks in?

    "Instead, two-thirds of Imperial individuals (31 out of 48) belong to two major clusters (C5 and C6) that overlap in PCA with central and eastern Mediterranean populations, such as those from southern and central Italy, Greece, Cyprus, and Malta (Fig. 4B). An additional quarter (13 out of 48) of the sampled Imperial Romans form a cluster (C4) defined by high amounts of haplotype sharing with Levantine and Near Eastern populations, whereas no pre-Imperial individuals appear in this cluster (Fig. 4AC)."



    To a certain extend yes. Also that rural zones are more likely to get hit by plagues and wars. Rome was sacked by Visigoths after all.
    You mean "urban", but I think everyone understood.


    I never implied so.
    Well, that seems to be the subtext for so many of these discussions. It makes my skin crawl. Maybe it is true for some Italians. There are lots of strange people in this hobby. I can't imagine any Italian-American, or someone like me, who has spent decades here, feeling like that. Lord, there's so much inter-marriage between the two groups, despite the huge difference in religion.


    No it does not, they are shifted in three direction towards Anatolia and Armenia, some few towards Northern Africa and the bulk seem towards Levant for whatever reason.
    Where the heck are you getting that? ONLY 1/4 of the Imperial Samples were from the Near East. Then, that "tail into the Levant" disappears. How many times does it have to be repeated??? Maybe they're saying that in the Etruscan paper, but they certainly didn't say it in Antonio et al. It's just the anthrogenica types who are saying it.

    When I said most Imperial Romans are South of Southern Italians I was talking for the 2019 Imperial Rome paper that I quoted. I haven't run yet the samples (expect the Greek ones).
    I want you to run them, although I already have, and Jovialis already has, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, the authors already have. Only 1/4 are from the Near East (including Anatolia), and two more samples are C3.

    I honestly don't get this. Maybe you have been brainwashed by the anthrogenica people or your fellow Albanians so that you don't absorb what the authors of Antonio et al pointed out, and the inconsistencies in the Etruscan paper.

    You're worn me out. Believe what you want.

    What is true of politics today is also now true of genetics, I guess. There's no search for objective truth; there's just different groups with different agendas.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    R437 - K36 map: Modern Apulian


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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    R437 - K36 map: Modern Apulian

    Salento: How are you? Thanks for the R437 K36 heat map. R437 looks pretty damn Southern Shifted to me here which is in line with Dodecad 12B and my own Distances with that one (yours and Jovialis as well).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Salento: How are you? Thanks for the R437 K36 heat map. R437 looks pretty damn Southern Shifted to me here which is in line with Dodecad 12B and my own Distances with that one (yours and Jovialis as well).
    I'm OK PT, thank you,
    R437 (y R1b) and R850 (y T) although a little different from each other are Iron-Age Italians, and that's it !!! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I'm OK PT, thank you,
    R437 (y R1b) and R850 (y T) although a little different from each other are Iron-Age Italians, and that's it !!! :)
    R1b and T (your Y Haplogroup). R437 is also really close to the Basilicata samples from 600 to 800 AD reported in the Estruscan paper in Dodecad 12B, I put those distances in an earlier post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    R1b and T (your Y Haplogroup). R437 is also really close to the Basilicata samples from 600 to 800 AD reported in the Estruscan paper in Dodecad 12B, I put those distances in an earlier post.
    Makes sense, … Venosa (Basilicata), according to AncestryDNA is part of the Genetic Community of Puglia.


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