Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 42 of 42 FirstFirst ... 32404142
Results 1,026 to 1,043 of 1043

Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #1026
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,062

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    michaelis anthrogenica
    Originally Posted by Yupi
    Try modeling Imperial Romans with Levantines, MLBA Syrians, Classical Greeks and West Med Italic people and see what happens.


    Wait until Hellenistic Pompeiians, Greeks, and Western Anatolians are released and you can try the same thing. The East Med profile in Southern Italy will predate the Roman Empire. I'm telling you guys you need to prepare for this inevitability because it's coming at you like a bullet train.

    p.s
    we will see time will tell not that i personally care
    that much if they would have east med ancestery yes or no
    We can see from the Olalde et al. 2021 paper that Anatolian during the Imperial era could be modelled as Anatolian_ChL+Iran_N.

    The Greeks of IA Campania were similar to Aegean BA, and in between R437 and R850, of which R850 forms a clade with Anatolia_ChL.

    Raveane et al. 2018 demonstrates a possible Anatolian_BA-like movement in the EBA, in Italy.

    Daunian pre-print demonstrates Anatolian_n+CHG is a main feature of the Mediterranean Genetic Continuum.

    To me, the evidence points to Anatolian influence that impacted not only south Italy, but also the Balkans, and as far as the west Mediterranean.

  2. #1027
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    129


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    It is surprising to me to see how heated a simple discussion about archeogenetics have turned, since I am not used to see them here, but for what it is worth, what I've come to believe is that whatever later augmentations might have been before drawing any conclusions one must wait for samples from all Italy from the relevant time periods, and I suspect that the overwhelmingly majority of the "east med" gene flow came from within Italy, that is from the region of south Italy, which might have been inhabitated by people on a cline between north italy_BA/IA and Sicily_BA/IA, with a steeper gradient south of Latium.
    Whatever later gene flows might have played a role, I think that a priori the likeliest source of it would be the Balkans, simply for geographic proximity, and then other places farther away; other possibilities aren't impossible but as long as there's a lack of evidence of those scenarios' being real then the safest bet is to hold a simple geographical paradigm.
    The only time I've been more "vocal" was when I argued against one holding that G25 Italian samples were so reliable that one could even draw results contradicting results from the then available papers (suggesting that "G25 results gave just a more detailed picture"), a position I still hold, but if the evidence points to X's being the genetic make up of Italy, I honestly do not give a damn: many people that are on this "hobby" just want to "LARP" as ancient ethnicity x, and/or find a sense of identity in what paper X says about their genetic make up; I have just historical curiosity.
    Even if X's being the genetic make up of Italy somewhat turns out to coincide with what the "anthro community" claimed, I shouldn't say they "knew" it since it would be akin a charlatan repeating every day prophecies and a day one of them becomes reality.

  3. #1028
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    894


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    michaelis anthrogenica

    Originally Posted by Yupi
    Try modeling Imperial Romans with Levantines, MLBA Syrians, Classical Greeks and West Med Italic people and see what happens.



    Wait until Hellenistic Pompeiians, Greeks, and Western Anatolians are released and you can try the same thing. The East Med profile in Southern Italy will predate the Roman Empire. I'm telling you guys you need to prepare for this inevitability because it's coming at you like a bullet train.





    p.s
    we will see time will tell not that i personally care
    that much if they would have east med ancestery yes or no
    Agamemnon has moved from South Italians were nearly completely replaced by Greeks and also Phoenicians in Sicily inland and in the coast to the "overcrowded cities of Magna Greacia carried most of the population of Southern Italy". After the Campania and Apulia native people were revealed.

    I have told them that Carthaginians were wiped of Sicily before they came as Northern African and native in Sardinia genetically. Trust history a little bit more. Imperial Rome was not Syracuse deluxe 2.0.

  4. #1029
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,062

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    The Anatolia_ChL/Iran_N genetic profile from the Imperial era, like the Latins, and Etruscans, no longer exist.

    Wasn't there a recent paper that shows the ancestors of contemporary Near Easterners descend from what ultimately sourced as Sidon_BA? Levant_BA is not too different from the Ancient Egyptian genetic profile. Clearly Anatolia_ChL/Iran_N is different from ancient Egypt. Ancient Egyptians, and Levant_BA is only Half-Anatolian/Iran_N.

  5. #1030
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,824


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Agamemnon has moved from South Italians were nearly completely replaced by Greeks and also Phoenicians in Sicily inland and in the coast to the "overcrowded cities of Magna Greacia carried most of the population of Southern Italy". After the Campania and Apulia native people were revealed.
    I have told them that Carthaginians were wiped of Sicily before they came as Northern African and native in Sardinia genetically.I have told them that Carthaginians were wiped of Sicily before they came as Northern African and native in Sardinia genetically. Trust history a little bit more. Imperial Rome was not Syracuse deluxe 2.0.
    For the first time ever, probably, I partially agree with him. Of course most of the population would have lived in the cities. That's true in the U.S. today, and England, and Germany, and Italy. Why is that surprising? More importantly, why does the important Greek influence on Italy seem to upset you and other Albanians so much? I sense a subtext here?

    As for this statement, sorry, but I can't respond because I don't understand it.
    "I have told them that Carthaginians were wiped of Sicily before they came as Northern African and native in Sardinia genetically.

    As to the Carthaginians, their foothold on Sicily was only in the northwest section. It is true that eventually they ruled all of Sicily, but the facts are well known that a vast majority of their troops were mercenaries, some my own Ligures, a lot of Spaniards etc. Everyone should read more history.

    They should also read more genetics papers. My reading of the one on the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians in Sardinia is that their influence was pretty localized to the southwestern section, although in modern times there has been more movement there as everywhere. The genetic landscape of La Spezia, where generations of the men in my family worked, is very different now than it was even when I was born and growing up there.

    The Phoenicians and Carthaginians after them established emporia, and farms to feed them, and mines. They were not families forced out of their homes by famine or young men cast out for their politics and searching out new lands to colonize for themselves and their descendants, as was the case with the Greeks.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  6. #1031
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,062

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States





    I am not sure if it was this documentary or not, but I recall that the people of Carthage were not so warm to Hannibal upon his return. Basically claiming he had more to do with foreigners in Iberia and abroad from his exploits; basically calling him a sellout.

  7. #1032
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    6,062

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    I am not sure if it was this documentary or not, but I recall that the people of Carthage were not so warm to Hannibal upon his return. Basically claiming he had more to do with foreigners in Iberia and abroad from his exploits; basically calling him a sellout.
    @28:49, they say Hannibal was shunned by Carthage as a foriegner.

    Around @23:24 they talk about how his father Hamlicar was distrusted by the old Carthage, and was basically creating a rouge state in Spain.

    In between that time, as they talk about Hannibal's march towards Rome, he had to constantly stop to recruit mercenaries from Iberia and Gaul.

  8. #1033
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,824


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For the first time ever, probably, I partially agree with him. Of course most of the population would have lived in the cities. That's true in the U.S. today, and England, and Germany, and Italy. Why is that surprising? More importantly, why does the important Greek influence on Italy seem to upset you and other Albanians so much? I sense a subtext here?

    As for this statement, sorry, but I can't respond because I don't understand it.
    "I have told them that Carthaginians were wiped of Sicily before they came as Northern African and native in Sardinia genetically.

    As to the Carthaginians, their foothold on Sicily was only in the northwest section. It is true that eventually they ruled all of Sicily, but the facts are well known that a vast majority of their troops were mercenaries, some my own Ligures, a lot of Spaniards etc. Everyone should read more history.

    They should also read more genetics papers. My reading of the one on the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians in Sardinia is that their influence was pretty localized to the southwestern section, although in modern times there has been more movement there as everywhere. The genetic landscape of La Spezia, where generations of the men in my family worked, is very different now than it was even when I was born and growing up there.

    The Phoenicians and Carthaginians after them established emporia, and farms to feed them, and mines. They were not families forced out of their homes by famine or young men cast out for their politics and searching out new lands to colonize for themselves and their descendants, as was the case with the Greeks.
    Sorry, forgot to post the map. Terrible what has happened to most of Southern Italy; it wasn't like this in the days of Magna Graecia, or even under the Muslims. Parts of the center and north have suffered the same fate too. The rural villages where my ancestors lived for at least 1000 years, and probably more, are almost ghost towns except for August and a few holidays. They've all moved for work, to other cities in Italy, to other countries in Europe, to the U.S. and Canada and Latin America and Australia. We've always been too many people for the terrain, for the amount of food we can produce. We haven't been able to feed ourselves, have been dependent on imports, since the Roman Era.



    The vast majority of the white areas are mountains. The only "flat" areas with good soil are the Po Plain, a small plain around La Spezia and the area around Napoli. Puglia (and nearby Basilicata) and the area of Toscana from the sea to Firenze isn't bad either. Some parts of Sicily were once a bread basket for Italy until foreign rulers after the Muslims despoiled it. That's why I've never understood how some Southern Italians/Sicilians pine for their Spanish Bourbon kings; just more foreign parasites, imo, but then I was born and raised in a hot bed or anarchism, where every other folk song curses our noble families and/or celebrates revolution. In the old days the guillotine would have gone over really big had we been organized enough, and had not Austria Hungary always been breathing down our necks, or the French once in a while for a change of pace. Napoleon was admired because he took away the power of the nobles and the church, and promulgated and enforced "The Rights of Man". There's even a big festival in his honor in Sarzana. Not that I support murder, you understand, but I understand the impulse.

  9. #1034
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    894


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For the first time ever, probably, I partially agree with him. Of course most of the population would have lived in the cities. That's true in the U.S. today, and England, and Germany, and Italy. Why is that surprising? More importantly, why does the important Greek influence on Italy seem to upset you and other Albanians so much? I sense a subtext here?
    He said Greek cities not all cities. Do you believe majority of people in Southern Italy were in Greek cities? Do you think majority of people of Apulia lived in 3 Greek cities?
    It does not upset me 100%, it does however upset me that you think that way. It's just that I vocalize myself too much and it looks that way to ... you.
    I will probably not talk about this topic anymore.
    Who are those other Albanians you speak of?

  10. #1035
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,394

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Agamemnon has moved from South Italians were nearly completely replaced by Greeks and also Phoenicians in Sicily inland and in the coast to the "overcrowded cities of Magna Greacia carried most of the population of Southern Italy". After the Campania and Apulia native people were revealed.
    I have told them that Carthaginians were wiped of Sicily before they came as Northern African and native in Sardinia genetically. Trust history a little bit more. Imperial Rome was not Syracuse deluxe 2.0.

    Carthage was founded in 810BC from Phoenicians from Tyre

    they began to settle in sicily circa 500BC

    It had a Thalassocracy system the same system as the Liburnians ( liburnians actually first traded with carthage from 730BC for pottery mainly )

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalassocracy

    within 2 generations in sicily ......they where fighting the indigenous people of sicily

    they even fought Phyrhus of Epirus after he attacked Italy as he demanded sicily from the Carthagians

    I doubt the carthagians had much luck in sicily......they seem to have better fortunes in sardinia and Spain
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  11. #1036
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,394

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He said Greek cities not all cities. Do you believe majority of people in Southern Italy were in Greek cities? Do you think majority of people of Apulia lived in 3 Greek cities?
    It does not upset me 100%, it does however upset me that you think that way. It's just that I vocalize myself too much and it looks that way to ... you.
    I will probably not talk about this topic anymore.
    Who are those other Albanians you speak of?

    the only Greeks I know about in Apulia was early bronze-age trade with Myceneans

    The Mycenaeans and Apulia. An Examination of Aegean Bronze Age Contacts with Apulia in Eastern Magna Grecia.

    by Elizabeth A. Fisher


    then after the Dalmatians/Iagypes arrived circa 1000BC ....the only Greek city was Taranto under Corinthians Greeks and later became a spartan city around 400BC

  12. #1037
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,824


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    He said Greek cities not all cities. Do you believe majority of people in Southern Italy were in Greek cities? Do you think majority of people of Apulia lived in 3 Greek cities? Why Calabria has only 7% E-V13 ( around 5-10% like the rest of Italy from the Northern to the South) and Peloponnese 25%? Given the Greek colonization was at least slightly male biased.

    It does not upset me 100%, it does however upset me that you think that way. It's just that I vocalize myself too much and it looks that way to ... you.
    I will probably not talk about this topic anymore.
    Who are those other Albanians you speak of?
    OK., I'll take you at your word as far as letting any possible agendas affect you. You seem a reasonable man most of the time.

    As to the cities of Southern Italy and Sicily, I'll have to go back and check my books and maps, but until the coming of the Greeks and then later the Roman Era, I don't think there "were" any "cities" as we would understand them with the exception of the large settlements in northern Puglia.

    Are you aware of any? I'm always willing to learn new things.

    Why does it seem so improbable to you that a few cities might concentrate most of the population of a whole province? Did you look at the map I posted? Where is the majority of the population of Campania? How about Piemonte, or Lazio, or Liguria? The Po Plain is slightly different because it's fertile. Puglia might have been different too because it is flatter. The only fertile areas of Calabria are on a strip of coastline circling it. Yes, I think probably the majority of the people of Calabria at that time lived in cities on that coast, and yes, I think they were Greek city-states. What were they supposed to eat, only ficchi d'india and whatever wild game they can kill and berries they can find? People gravitate to where the living is easier. Campania has its very fertile areas on the fertile volcanic soil from Vesuvius. They plant all the way up the volcano almost to the crater. The population congregated there because that's where you can produce the most food.

    It's been like this throughout human history. Large concentrations of people form where there is fresh water and fertile soil and access to transportation. Even before farming it was like this. The largest human settlements of the "Western World" were in the Levant, because after the Last Glacial Maximum, the soil and climate supported so much flora and fauna for the taking that it could support a large group of HGs who didn't have to trek miles every day just to find something to eat. No wonder they had a memory of a place they called "The Garden of Eden".

    Note that before the Romans drained it, much of the now green Po Plain was marshland; that's why the Roman built cities line the southern rim of it.


  13. #1038
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    2,394

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    the only Greeks I know about in Apulia was early bronze-age trade with Myceneans
    The Mycenaeans and Apulia. An Examination of Aegean Bronze Age Contacts with Apulia in Eastern Magna Grecia.
    by Elizabeth A. Fisher

    then after the Dalmatians/Iagypes arrived circa 1000BC ....the only Greek city was Taranto under Corinthians Greeks and later became a spartan city around 400BC

    Apulia might have become more Greek/Epirote after Phyrhus of Epirus invasion ..............I am not sure

  14. #1039
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-09-16
    Posts
    408


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    michaelis anthrogenica

    Originally Posted by Yupi
    Try modeling Imperial Romans with Levantines, MLBA Syrians, Classical Greeks and West Med Italic people and see what happens.



    Wait until Hellenistic Pompeiians, Greeks, and Western Anatolians are released and you can try the same thing. The East Med profile in Southern Italy will predate the Roman Empire. I'm telling you guys you need to prepare for this inevitability because it's coming at you like a bullet train.





    p.s
    we will see time will tell not that i personally care
    that much if they would have east med ancestery yes or no

    I like your sense of humor. Nice pic. Some people take the field of population genetics, archaeogenetics, etc. too seriously and too personally, thus they can't handle unpleasant outcomes. Surely, we all want to be as close to our ancestors as we can get. However, sometimes things are a bit complicated and quite messy. The genetic ancestry of some populations sometimes does reveal the complicated intersection of genetics, history, and ethnicity.

  15. #1040
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    894


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    Yes, Tuscans and Romans of the Modern Era are more southern shifted than the Etruscans and the Latins. No one is denying it. However, to say that there was this massive migration of Levantines to Etruria followed by a big German migration makes no sense. The y Dna doesn't support it, for one thing, and neither do the samples they're using, as Jovialis has pointed out. This is what comes of averaging a small number of samples to model historical genetic change. Hell, even the authors waffle, saying they don't know whether the admixture was Levantine or Anatolian. That's a pretty big difference.
    I missed this one. Where was the massive migration of Levantines in Tuscany even suggested by me? Modern Tuscans are closer to IA Etruscans than to Imperial Romans. I only modelled Imperial Romans as mix of Middle Easterners and West Med Ancient Italians, showing the Italian ancestry at 30%. A model that is not meant to be taken literally. But still I think that the overall cluster of Imperial Romans is coincidental.

    The Northern African admixture in some Iberians post 100BC reaches 10%. Considering Northwestern African admixture causes a greater pull, so I think it's about the same percentage in Tuscany maybe add 5% in it. But with different sources.

  16. #1041
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,824


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I missed this one. Where was the massive migration of Levantines in Tuscany even suggested by me? Modern Tuscans are closer to IA Etruscans than to Imperial Romans. I only modelled Imperial Romans as mix of Middle Easterners and West Med Ancient Italians, showing the Italian ancestry at 30%. A model that is not meant to be taken literally. But still I think that the overall cluster of Imperial Romans is coincidental.

    The Northern African admixture in some Iberians post 100BC reaches 10%. Considering Northwestern African admixture causes a greater pull, so I think it's about the same percentage in Tuscany maybe add 5% in it. But with different sources.
    I'm having great difficulty understanding your meaning in this post; AGAIN. Perhaps you should only post earlier in the day when you're not as tired. I realize it is difficult discussing such dense and complicated material in a language not your own.

    The bolded sentence was the model showed by the authors in the body of the paper, although in the Supplement they waffle and point toward Bronze/Iron Age Anatolia. I didn't direct it specifically at you, but it seemed to me you had accepted that model since you were essentially trying to recreate it.

    You took their handful of samples, averaged them, and came up with modeling which I think is beyond faulty, particularly if you're trying to say that modern Tuscans only have 30% ancient Italian ancestry. I am half Tuscan and I can be modeled as 60-70% Latin and Etruscan, so something is wrong with your "modeling".

    If your modeling wasn't meant to be taken seriously, why do it? I suggested some alternative scenarios you could explore, but it seems you're not interested.

    I have the results of 100% modern Tuscans. 10-15% Northwest African is ludicrous. Nothing like that has ever shown up in their results from reputable testing companies. Even Sicilians who were under the domination of the Moors for 200 years don't have results like that. Certainly other Southern Italians don't, and I know because I've seen their results. Yet, Tuscans have 10-15%? Get serious.

  17. #1042
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    894


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    You took their handful of samples, averaged them, and came up with modeling which I think is beyond faulty, particularly if you're trying to say that modern Tuscans only have 30% ancient Italian ancestry. I am half Tuscan and I can be modeled as 60-70% Latin and Etruscan, so something is wrong with your "modeling".
    My quote:

    "Modern Tuscans are closer to IA Etruscans than to Imperial Romans. I only modelled Imperial Romans as mix of Middle Easterners and West Med Ancient Italians, showing the Italian ancestry at 30%."

    I said Tuscans are closer to IA Etruscans than to Imperial Romans, whereas I modelled Imperial Romans as +30% Ancient Italian. Logically considering Tuscans are closer to IA Etruscans than to Imperial Romans this would imply that modern Tuscans are waaaaay more than just 30% Italic and Etruscan.
    Right?

    About this one:
    The Northern African admixture in some Iberians post 100BC reaches 10%. Considering Northwestern African admixture causes a greater pull, so I think it's about the same percentage in Tuscany maybe add 5% in it. But with different sources.





    Look at bolded part. If Iberians have 10% Northern African admixture with similar distance to IA Iberians that Tuscans have to IA Etruscans. Wouldn't it make sense that Modern Tuscans have around 10% Eastern Mediterranean ancestry but not Northwestern African. (Hence I said different source.)

  18. #1043
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,824


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    My quote:

    "Modern Tuscans are closer to IA Etruscans than to Imperial Romans. I only modelled Imperial Romans as mix of Middle Easterners and West Med Ancient Italians, showing the Italian ancestry at 30%."

    I said Tuscans are closer to IA Etruscans than to Imperial Romans, whereas I modelled Imperial Romans as +30% Ancient Italian. Logically considering Tuscans are closer to IA Etruscans than to Imperial Romans this would imply that modern Tuscans are waaaaay more than just 30% Italic and Etruscan.
    Right?

    About this one:
    The Northern African admixture in some Iberians post 100BC reaches 10%. Considering Northwestern African admixture causes a greater pull, so I think it's about the same percentage in Tuscany maybe add 5% in it. But with different sources.





    Look at bolded part. If Iberians have 10% Northern African admixture with similar distance to IA Iberians that Tuscans have to IA Etruscans. Wouldn't it make sense that Modern Tuscans have around 10% Eastern Mediterranean ancestry but not Northwestern African. (Hence I said different source.)
    Ok. Thanks for the explanation.

    Fwiw, as I said, I'm half Tuscan like (including the La-Spezia ancestry), and I get about 3-4% East Med depending on the calculator.

Page 42 of 42 FirstFirst ... 32404142

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •