Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 4 of 29 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 715

Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #76
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,175
    Points
    331,938
    Level
    100
    Points: 331,938, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The map for 300-700 AD shows immigration from the direction of Gallia and Britannia, not Central Europe:

    See the blue arrow, which shows North-Western (rather than just northern) source of the bulk of this shift:



    Looks like after the loss of Eastern provinces, people from Western provinces started migrating to Rome.

    We are talking mostly about immigrants who were citizens of the Roman Empire, rather than barbarians.

    Perhaps it included Roman citizens evacuated from Britain to Italy: https://www.jstor.org/stable/297204
    Yes, well I'm not sure I buy their explanation, and nor does Razib Khan.

    Rome was Ground Zero for looting, destruction etc. This was when Rome was sacked and plundered. People scattered. The capital of what was left of "Rome" in Italy was moved to Ravenna. Why the hell would people head toward it at that point in time?

    People can't just speculate wildly while knowing nothing of what was going on historically.

    The Gothic War raged in Italy between 376-382. Before people start with the Goths again, there weren't very many of them, there didn't need to be, what with the plague also raging.

    382 3 October Gothic War (376–382): The Goths were made foederati of Rome and granted land and autonomy in Thrace, ending the war.

    402 The capital of the Western Roman Empire was moved to Ravenna.

    410 24 August Sack of Rome (410): Rome was sacked by the Visigoths under their king Alaric I.

    455 16 March Valentinian III was assassinated on orders of the senator Petronius Maximus.
    17 March The Senate acclaimed Maximus augustus of the Western Roman Empire.
    31 May Maximus was killed by a mob as he attempted to flee Rome in the face of a Vandal advance.
    2 June Sack of Rome (455): The Vandals entered and began to sack Rome.

    In succeeding periods Byzantium caused the shots, and the Lombards and Byzantines battled all over Italy.

    Please tell me how the authors could imagine that civilians from northwestern Europe were heading toward Rome to settle?

    I'm honestly trying to keep an open mind about this, but it makes no sense.

    If they're talking about soldiers of Germanic ancestry, i.e. Goths, Vandals, and Lombards, you'd need a lot of their yDna to affect such big changes, and it's just not there, other than in a few pockets easily accounted for by drift in some individual locations. THat's why the R1b in my area of Italy is over 70%, by the way, although the autosomal analysis tells a different tale.

    I'll go back to Ralph and Coop. Based on IBD analysis, they found no signficiant "foreign" input into modern Italians after about 500 BC, which, I'll remind everyone is the Iron Age, hence Khan's hypothesis of how the area was re-settled.

    If anything, this is a movement of people from more northern and northwestern parts of Italy toward the center and south.

    Find a better theory based on knowledge of Roman history and I'll be glad to entertain it.
    Last edited by Angela; 08-11-19 at 21:54.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #77
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-09-19
    Age
    31
    Posts
    53
    Points
    343
    Level
    3
    Points: 343, Level: 3
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Armenia



    Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    He belongs to J-CTS6190, so he is related to J-Y15058 I4331. Yet looking at the spread and diversity of CTS6190, and as Etruscan clusters with the American it is obvious, considering Portuguese, Italian samples at YFull, that the entire CTS6190 has Etruscan affiliation.
    Regarding it's origins:

    A) It arrived from the East as you and all Albanians suggest because you have to defend your "J-L283 came out of Steppe".

    B) It did not arrive from the East. CTS6190 separated from the PH1602 3800 ybp. So it has had a small bottleneck, and its distance to other clades dates to MBA. There is one Sardinian sample too at YFull but he has no readings for anything under.. The culture where Dalmatian J-L283 was found is abundant in Italian connections. Autosomally I4331 clusters with North Italians, Iberians, not with Albanians.. That is an indication of it having arrived from Italy as archaeological evidence suggests! And even LBA sample from the region is very similar autosomally! That does not favor the Out of Steppe! Why? 1200 BC it had same makeup as 1600 BC, this indicates continuity and that means likely expansion from the east rather than 1900 BC this sample being autosomally 100 % Yamnaya or something like that!! It's more likely that 1900 BC it had a similar makeup!

    As I suggested in my first post on eupedia, J-L283 mingled with Bell Beakers and arrived from NE Italy to Dalmatia. And now to claim this is not true you have to argue that somehow the only Etruscan Y-DNA find represents a small minority of Out of Steppe Illyrians. Not only that, you have several J-L283 Nuragic Sardinian finds, Trojet suggesting they arrived there from the Balkans based on J-L283 not being found earlier than that on a large sample of few people, yeah right.. So you claim this Etruscan represents 1-2 % of Etruscans? Mathematical probabilities are not good for that. When you start probing a population, usually more common haplogroups pop out first..

    So Nuragic Sardinians and Etruscans seem to have had a substantial Steppe influence, who could have expected that.. Amazing.. We see such a diversity of typical Steppe lineages such as R-Z2103, R-P311 in Nuragic Sardinia, Etruscans don't we.. The Steppe R-V88.. and ofc older subclades J-L283>YP29, J-L283>YP157, J-L283>YP113 are abundant in the Steppe..

    I told you Bell Beaker expansion for L283 is more likely..

    In any case it seems that J-CTS6190 itself is Etruscan..




    You keep mentioning those Trojan Dardanians in the context of Illyrians. If there were Dardanians in the time of Trojans, by clear archaeological evidence they most definitely were not Illyrian but Moesian.
    Illyrians expanded westwards into Dardania later, according to historical and archaeological evidence and formed a ruling class over pre-Illyrian original Dardanians (likely mostly E-V13). I don't have a problem with mentioning their possible migrations in those days but I do have a problem when someone says Dardanians they were Illyrian at that time.
    Trojans and Illyrians may actually have been related... I wouldn’t be surprised if they were...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #78
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,175
    Points
    331,938
    Level
    100
    Points: 331,938, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is fast and dirty, folks, because I just don't have the time this morning. I hope someone checks the data.

    These are the samples which seem to be south and southeast of modern Southern Italians, i.e. Anatolian/Syrian like, and their burial sites.

    70
    68
    132 Marcellino and Pietro Catacombs
    41 Isola Sacra
    42 Isola Sacra
    75 Viale Rossini
    80 Viale Rossini
    76 Viale Rossini
    1550 Monte Rotondo
    1547 Monte Rotondo
    126 Casale del Dolce

    We know about Isola Sacra

    Viale Rossini Necropolis: again, on a road leading from a port

    Casale del Dolce: one of the samples was an outlier
    Low meat consumption, which might mean an indication of poverty.


    None come from the Via Pasiello Necropolis in Northern Rome, or near the Mausoleo di Augusto near the Center of Rome or from the suburban Centocelli Necropolis, the latter of which is associated with a Roman Villa.

    It does look indeed like a modern large city, with enclaves of people from certain areas living and being buried together.

    I have to find 68 and 70.
    I find 68 and 70 on the list of ancient samples as being from Imperial Rome, but in the archaeology section they're not assigned to any particular necropolis. That's a definite error.

    It would be nice if they could spell, too.

    This is why people should publish pre-prints. They then have a chance to clean up their papers before publication.

    As per their graphic of the samples from Isola Sacra, a lot more of those very "Southern" samples come from there than I have on my list.
    Last edited by Angela; 08-11-19 at 21:46.

  4. #79
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,175
    Points
    331,938
    Level
    100
    Points: 331,938, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Some R1b comes in during the Neolithic - same as early influx found in Iberia? Seems to have been submerged or diluted beyond detection, since there is no sign of it in the copper age.

    Major R1b influx during the iron age, including the Latins. J2 and T come in with R1b. Copper age male lines look to have been replaced or submerged.

    Latins and Etruscans look to share at least the same base population. Question remains about the origin of the Etruscan language, while Latin is clearly Indo-European. A language can survive, however, even though the genetic imprint of its original carriers is diluted to nothing.

    R1b shrinks during the Imperial period, likely due to dilution (disappearance of male lines during civil wars?).

    R1b rebounds during late antiquity, undoubtedly due to fresh inputs (Goths, Lombards), and expands during the Medieval (progeny of the Ghibelline "dukes"?).

    What is the T? It came in during the Iron Age, with R1b, but disappears after the Late Antiquity collapse.
    I think that R1b in the Mesolithic may turn out to be V88. The authors point out that the sample which carried it had unusually high percentages of WHG.

    The only J I see in the Republican/Iron Age is J-M12. Isn't that the J2b found in the Etruscan male? That could be local Neolithic, or diffused Neolithic picked up by steppe people all over the Balkans and Italy.

    I think Etruscan may turn out to be like Basque, i.e. a local language adopted by some of the newcomers.

    If the people studying the R1b lines are correct, most of that Latin R1b may be U-152 and subclades. Like I said, if there is an afterlife, my father is delirious with joy; he was more a fan of the Romans than I am, and he carried U-152, and he was northwestern Italian. :) If with more Etruscan samples they're also U-152, well, words fail me as to his probable reaction. I have the hunch, however, they may carry slightly different sub-clades of R1b.

    Goths and Lombards are highly unlikely to have carried R1b U-152 as major lineages. All the Lombards we have to date are, for example, U-106. There is extremely little of that or I1 in Lazio today. There are five I's in all those Late Antiquity/Early Medieval samples. Can someone categorize them? Also, has anyone figured out if there's any U-106?

    If the authors were going to collect yDna, you might think they'd consider it in their analyses.

  5. #80
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    701
    Points
    10,206
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,206, Level: 30
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Who is to say that Messapic is not descended of Bell Beaker? Bell Beaker language is unknown and some have postulated that languages such as Ligurian are its remnant, I've seen views about Venetian (that is Liburnian), most likely it was not Italo-Celtic but an older split from this group. Also metrically Albanians show similarities to Bell Beakers. The so called "Dinaric" type. That was the dominant type of many Bell Beakers, including Central European group, not the same as modern but this is where "Dinaric"/"Euro-Dinaric" features are first attested in history I believe - with Bell Beakers.
    Messapics are the smallest of the tribes
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapians
    Last edited by torzio; 08-11-19 at 22:22.
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  6. #81
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,230
    Points
    125,626
    Level
    100
    Points: 125,626, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    B]Neolithic[/B] : typical Anatolian farmer autosomal DNA / Y-haplogroups G2a-L91, but also R1b and J2a1-L26 (first Neolithic J2a1 in Europe, I believe)
    Imo, I think one of the bigger developments in this paper, is iran-like ancestry in the Neolithic.

    Also the resurgence of WHG in Italy, due to mixing with farmers that retained more WHG.

    I wonder if that is why I get relatively higher WHG in that ancient calculator by geneplaza, but low levels of steppe.

  7. #82
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,175
    Points
    331,938
    Level
    100
    Points: 331,938, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The J2b2-L283 that is found in Civitavecchia is from 700-600BC, and most likely has origin from the Croatian coast as it is under the same branch despite being near 1000 years younger.

    Aeneas was a Dardanian, they are connected with Trojans, but not the same thing, so don't go discounting just yet. There could have been truth in the myth.
    Jesus H. Christ. How do you know there even WAS an AENEAS? Was there a Hercules too, and an Atlas? You think there was an actual man named Ulysses who went to the Land of the Cyclops and had to pass two monsters barring entrance to a sea channel? I could go on and on.

    When will people get that MYTHS are just that: MYTHS, and usually for self aggrandizement.

    The Scots thought they were descended from Trojans too. Were they right as well?

    Honestly, you're too smart for this.

  8. #83
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    18-03-17
    Posts
    368
    Points
    2,654
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,654, Level: 14
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 96
    Overall activity: 13.0%


    Ethnic group
    swiss,italian
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You consider this a significant amount of Morocco HG, leaving aside the fact that's a hell of a sample to use as reference? Perhaps you'd like to compare the amount of Morocco HG which remained and remains in Spain and Portugal.
    where did you read the word "significant"?

    on average it was never significant but it was not present in copper age and appears first during iron age here in these samples. it is still present in late antiquity and medival times
    so if we assume that it was introduced through migrants who went to rome during roman times this would speak against the theory that the ancestry of imperial rome just disappeared because of depopulation.

    why should we compare it to morocco HG in Portugal and Spain?

  9. #84
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,025
    Points
    16,764
    Level
    39
    Points: 16,764, Level: 39
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 486
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Jesus H. Christ. How do you know there even WAS an AENEAS? Was there a Hercules too, and an Atlas? You think there was an actual man named Ulysses who went to the Land of the Cyclops and had to pass two monsters barring entrance to a sea channel? I could go on and on.

    When will people get that MYTHS are just that: MYTHS, and usually for self aggrandizement.

    The Scots thought they were descended from Trojans too. Were they right as well?

    Honestly, you're too smart for this.
    I don't believe that specific individuals like aneas existed, but if an entire community is being mentioned arriving in italy and specific sites are attributed to being built by them, this is a different category of myth and not comparable with myths that are possibly allegory of some natural phenomena.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  10. #85
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    701
    Points
    10,206
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,206, Level: 30
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I don't believe that specific individuals like aneas existed, but if an entire community is being mentioned arriving in italy and specific sites are attributed to being built by them, this is a different category of myth and not comparable with myths that are possibly allegory of some natural phenomena.
    If these trojans did arrive at rome in the 1100bc , they would be the minority....there was people already living there....it was not like some red-indian type of moving from one camp to another camp

  11. #86
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,175
    Points
    331,938
    Level
    100
    Points: 331,938, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    where did you read the word "significant"?

    on average it was never significant but it was not present in copper age and appears first during iron age here in these samples. it is still present in late antiquity and medival times
    so if we assume that it was introduced through migrants who went to rome during roman times this would speak against the theory that the ancestry of imperial rome just disappeared because of depopulation.

    why should we compare it to morocco HG in Portugal and Spain?
    Do you see it in the Mesolithic, or Neolithic, or Copper Age?

    So, can we ASSUME it came in the Republican Era, Imperial Age, and perhaps in Late Antiquity?

    If it's this insignificant, and it is, why are you so interested in it? In the midst of all these important questions, this is your main focus? Unless you're t-rolling, of course, which you so often do.

    Did I ever say or even imply that these people left NO trace of their sojurn in Rome? That would be stupid, and no one has ever accused me of being stupid. Just so that there is no question, I have no doubt that there was probably some intermarriage and traces of their dna remain. Do some "white" New Yorkers marry Puerto Ricans? Yes, they do. Do some marry East Asians? Yes, they do. Do a few marry African-Americans? Some, but even less. What would happen if there was no more migration of Puerto Ricans, East Asians and African Americans, and a lot of the population of New York City died or scattered?

    Christ, it took 1000 years for the Anatolian farmers in Europe to really start intermarrying with the hunter-gatherers.

    In Greece, you couldn't legally marry non-citizens, and a child produced with a non-citizen, even one resident in the city-state, had no citizenship rights. If people go around digging up Classical Greeks, are all the samples they'll find going to be the ancestors of modern day Greeks in large proportions?

    Ashkenazi Jews lived alongside Slavs for 6-700 years and never intermarried.

    Barely 70 something years ago, northern Italians like my paternal grandfather wouldn't allow their children to marry Southern Italians.

    I could go on and on.

    Human behavior doesn't change all that much. Only our toys do.

    However, it's absolutely clear from the data that the "trail" to the Near East, all those kinds of people who plotted south and southeast of Southern Italians are gone relatively quickly. That kind of thing happens when you have a wave that stops, i.e. no replenishment, and the population is killed or is scattered.

    There has to be a reason, and some Goth and Vandal tribesman are not the answer. There's just not enough of their y dna around. Hell, 70% R1b where I come from, and we still plot as North Central Italians.

    If you're sincerely interested in this and not just t-rolling, go back and read the Supplement. The authors state over and over again that the populations were HETEROGENEOUS, and remained so over time, and were not HOMOGENEOUS.
    Last edited by Angela; 09-11-19 at 01:20.

  12. #87
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,095
    Points
    54,189
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,189, Level: 72
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 1,361
    Overall activity: 70.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Great! I am glad this paper is finally out.

    In summary, what we can see at first sight is:

    Mesolithic : typical HG autosomal DNA / Y-haplogroups I2a2-M436, I2a2a-M223

    Neolithic : typical Anatolian farmer autosomal DNA / Y-haplogroups G2a-L91, but also R1b and J2a1-L26 (first Neolithic J2a1 in Europe, I believe).

    Iron Age : Italic and Etruscan have very similar autosomal DNA, close to modern NW Italians but also French and Spaniards. Roman/Italic Y-DNA is all R1b-M269 or the Proto-Italo-Celtic R1b-P312 (most probably U152, IMHO). A single T1a1 is an autosomal outlier (unlikely to be of Italic origin). The only Etruscan Y-DNA is J2b1-L283 (big news, as the origins of this haplogroup remained relatively mysterious).

    Interestingly no E1b1b before the Imperial Age, not even the pan-European E-V13.
    imho y T is not an outlier, y T is rare, but proportionally and coincidentally it’s the only non y R Haplogroup among the Iron-age Roman-Italics.

    Proportionally, there are probably many more y T.

    ‘cause of low %s distributions in Europe and other places, y T is often considered unimportant or an outlier.

  13. #88
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,095
    Points
    54,189
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,189, Level: 72
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 1,361
    Overall activity: 70.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Messapics are the smallest of the tribes
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapians
    The Messapi were also very influential in stopping, clearing, and minimizing to Taranto the impact of the Spartan Colonies in Puglia / Salento.

  14. #89
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,175
    Points
    331,938
    Level
    100
    Points: 331,938, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sorry, It's Roman genetic history for dummies.

    Unless they know what the samples from southern Italy look like for the Bronze and Iron Age, they have no way of knowing where this Near Eastern shift came from. Did some come directly from the Near East? Yes. Did all of it come from the Near East? I doubt it.

    Likewise, I don't see anything in the yDna showing a mass migration into Rome and central Italy from the north/northwest of Europe, i.e. as compared to northern/northwestern Italy, not, at least, in Late Antiquity, or the Medieval Era. You have to take some account of the history and archaeology. This was the problem all along with some of the Etruscan analyses.

    If someone can show it to me, with actual facts, fine. I always follow the data. I don't follow interpretation by Polako and his socks over at Eurogenes, or Sikeliot and his socks at anthrogenica.

    Same with the Etruscans. If the overall picture of Etruscan autosomal genetics changes when we have lots more samples, fine, I'll modify my interpretation. Until then, Herodotus is a non-starter. Go back to the other Greek writers on Etruscan origins. Jesus, you'd think he's the only one who ever wrote about it. Talk about selective choice of sources.
    Last edited by Angela; 09-11-19 at 01:12.

  15. #90
    Banned Achievements:
    500 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    20-10-19
    Posts
    52
    Points
    788
    Level
    7
    Points: 788, Level: 7
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 162
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Ethnic group
    Român
    Country: Romania



    What is new?

  16. #91
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-09-16
    Posts
    175
    Points
    5,069
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,069, Level: 21
    Level completed: 4%, Points required for next Level: 481
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think that R1b in the Mesolithic may turn out to be V88. The authors point out that the sample which carried it had unusually high percentages of WHG.
    Ooh, that's interesting. Yes, according to poster ArmandoR1b, who looked at the BAM, R6 (~5200 BC) belongs to the R1b-Y8451 branch of V88. Contemporary Early Neolithic farmers from 2 sites in Spain as well as a Late Neolithic Sardinian also belong to this branch, which is the parent to both Sardinian R1b-V35 and mostly-African R1b-Y8447. YF estimates R1b-Y8451's TMRCA at about 5-7000 years and its parent's around 7-10 000 years, so these guys could potentially have been pretty close to the ancestor of almost all modern R1b-V88.

    R1b-V88 or pre-V88 was also found in Mesolithic Serbia and Ukraine. We'll need more ancient DNA to find out whether it was already present in Italy, or whether it was brought by early farmers from elsewhere (maybe across the Adriatic). If Mesolithic it would agree with Roy King's idea of R1b-V88 spreading with Castelnovian culture, which has connections to both Ukraine and Tunisia (and could have ultimate origins in either direction depending who you ask).

  17. #92
    Junior Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    02-09-16
    Posts
    7
    Points
    2,297
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,297, Level: 13
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 153
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: Germany



    Please have mercy. I‘m not stating my opinion but bringing up all the diverse interpretations, conclusions and claims concerning this important study on Roman DNA, to discuss all that in this forum. I have no intention to ***** in any form, shape or fashion. It‘s interesting to examine how people analyze the same information from this study so differently and controversial. In my humble opinion, I don‘t think that the “imperial Romans that were tested in this study reflect the genetics of the original Romans or the patrician class. I can assure you I'm not Drago, etc.

  18. #93
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,175
    Points
    331,938
    Level
    100
    Points: 331,938, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Ooh, that's interesting. Yes, according to poster ArmandoR1b, who looked at the BAM, R6 (~5200 BC) belongs to the R1b-Y8451 branch of V88. Contemporary Early Neolithic farmers from 2 sites in Spain as well as a Late Neolithic Sardinian also belong to this branch, which is the parent to both Sardinian R1b-V35 and mostly-African R1b-Y8447. YF estimates R1b-Y8451's TMRCA at about 5-7000 years and its parent's around 7-10 000 years, so these guys could potentially have been pretty close to the ancestor of almost all modern R1b-V88.

    R1b-V88 or pre-V88 was also found in Mesolithic Serbia and Ukraine. We'll need more ancient DNA to find out whether it was already present in Italy, or whether it was brought by early farmers from elsewhere (maybe across the Adriatic). If Mesolithic it would agree with Roy King's idea of R1b-V88 spreading with Castelnovian culture, which has connections to both Ukraine and Tunisia (and could have ultimate origins in either direction depending who you ask).
    Thanks for that interesting information. Yes, all that WHG in that R1b sample sort of sealed the deal for me.

    Well, that's another bit of confirmation, if anyone still needs it, that R1b of the M-269 variety was not in Central and Western and Southern Europe until quite late, and is somehow connected to the steppe people.

  19. #94
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    701
    Points
    10,206
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,206, Level: 30
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The Messapi were also very influential in stopping, clearing, and minimizing to Taranto the impact of the Spartan Colonies in Puglia / Salento.
    Yes correct...but the landing of these 3 tribes , led by dauni arrived south of foggia, they then started marching south kicking out the greeks in the heel of italy
    Btw, the dauni are the only ones to have chariots matching the chariots of the iapodes of the north adriatic

    .
    If i was to make a call on these messapic tribes i would say dalmatian or liburnian with a umbri mix once arriving in italy....then a "roman " mix

  20. #95
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,469
    Points
    42,801
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,801, Level: 63
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 149
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by valentinavalley2 View Post
    Liburnians were originally Illyrian.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Are you so sure? The Liburnian language shows more ties to a proto-Italic or archaic Italic language close to Venetic than to Illyrian. Even the maps about Illyrian ethny put their borders a bit too far north, i think.

  21. #96
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,175
    Points
    331,938
    Level
    100
    Points: 331,938, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Are you so sure? The Liburnian language shows more ties to a proto-Italic or archaic Italic language close to Venetic than to Illyrian. Even the maps about Illyrian ethny put their borders a bit too far north, i think.
    Some sense at last.

  22. #97
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Two-way mixture models for individuals from 300-700 AD, Table S24:

    Germany_Late_Roman was that Roman soldier FN_2 who resembled genetically Republican Era Romans, or maybe Celtiberians:



    ^^^ So Romans from ca. 300-700 AD can be modelled as 60% Romans from 0-300 AD + 40% Roman soldiers similar to FN_2:





    Table S23, F4 stats: https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf

  23. #98
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,095
    Points
    54,189
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,189, Level: 72
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 1,361
    Overall activity: 70.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Yes correct...but the landing of these 3 tribes , led by dauni arrived south of foggia, they then started marching south kicking out the greeks in the heel of italy
    Btw, the dauni are the only ones to have chariots matching the chariots of the iapodes of the north adriatic

    If i was to make a call on these messapic tribes i would say dalmatian or liburnian with a umbri mix once arriving in italy....then a "roman " mix
    If so, there must have been more the one Iapygian base migration towards Puglia, because by the time the Greeks showed up, the Messapi had been in Puglia for over a 1000 years.

  24. #99
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,582
    Points
    66,418
    Level
    79
    Points: 66,418, Level: 79
    Level completed: 98%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Roman soldier FN_2 from Monachium dated to ca. 300-500 CE plots in the PCA just like Republican Romans several centuries before him.

    Or is it just my impression?

    Another question - why didn't the authors in Table S24 include more mixture models with fully ancient sources? Only one ancient model.

  25. #100
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,095
    Points
    54,189
    Level
    72
    Points: 54,189, Level: 72
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 1,361
    Overall activity: 70.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    edit.. DeL...
    point made
    Last edited by Salento; 09-11-19 at 04:07.

Page 4 of 29 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •