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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #126
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I have news for Simon W...

    Republican Era Romans were a mix of Spanish and Greek? Seriously? That would be MODERN northern Spanish and MODERN mainland Greek the paper was showing. We have to look at mixtures of PROXIMATE populations as in NOT MODERN POPULATIONS.

    That doesn't mean admixture between those two groups you dunderheads!

    Plus, most of the Republican samples don't plot far south enough for that. My God, look at the PCA.

    I can use myself as an example. On the old gedmatch calculators I come out as midway between the Spaniards (a heavily northern Spaniard weighted sample) and the Greeks. I have neither Spanish nor Greek ancestry. It's just that I, and Italians like me, are neither West nor East Mediterranean. We're CENTRAL Mediterraneans.

    Oh, and I'm at 3.4 genetic distance to a TSI like sample from Szolad, and 4.3 to an ancient sample from near Collegno (Piemonte). I haven't heard of anyone being closer.

    Honestly, people, after all this time some of you people still don't understand how to interpret genetics results AT ALL.


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    Quote Originally Posted by valentinavalley2 View Post
    Both the Liburnians and Dalmatians before the Roman Empire were Illyrian, it’s stupid to say weren’t when original Greek sources say they were. You can’t compare modern scholars to ancient ones, because one only “guess” and take sources out of Romans who had an “agenda” to spread their people to replace them with the natives, the others were here to hear the language they spoke.


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    In roman texts there are no illyrians, it is a geophical term, like british...in the roman census of 5bc , which i supplied before, they had tribes under the term illyricum of which the dalmatian represented 52 percent, next came pannonians with 21 percent
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    In fact the question is a bit more complicated. It depends if you speak of a politic "state" or if you speak of ethnicity or language. The Liburnian language is closer to Venetic, as say Bernard SERGENT and WIKIPEDIA. B. SERGENT explains that at le anthroponymic level, the "Illyrian" territory (according to later Roman naming?) was divided into three parts (at least). One of them checks geographically the zone where Greeks had signaled their "Illyrians", it's to say in the N-W of Greece, where they localized the Taulantians, Enkhelai, Piraei: their lands correspond well enough to the southern anthroponymic zone of the author KATICIC (KATICHICH') 1976. It would be the true linguistic original Illyrian zone. The later in between Dalmatian zone had anthroponyms seeming formed on pan-italic languages descendant as Venetic, someones call it Pannono-Italic (let's not forget the Italics differenciation could have occurred around Panninia). It seems all that was already settled before Roman occupation and the changes it caused. It's out of discussion that Liburni(ans) were not true Illyrians, if they were, maybe, unde Illyrian control at some stage of history.
    Liburnians and histri and iapodes all sit under the term illyrian and so do other tribes in noricum, how else do you get halstatt culture in noricum, a mix of celts and illyrians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    IIRC, in the Olalde 2019 study the authors claimed Iberia has almost no Germanic admixture after modelling Visigoths with use of very "northern" Pre-Roman samples as a source (while samples from times of the Roman rule in Iberia were no longer as northern-shifted as those Pre-Roman, due to admixtures from the east).

    And that made no sense, because Celtiberian genetics got altered during Roman period. The authors used a biased model to prove lack of Germanic DNA.

    Here the authors have the opposite agenda - and are also using biased models. In this case it would actually make sense to use Republican samples, because - unlike Celtiberians in Iberia - Republican Romans could survive Imperial era unaltered. Imperial samples so far are only from Rome and vicinity, not from all over Italy.

    We should wait for a comprehensive study with samples from all over Italy including various rural areas, just like Olalde 2019 sampled most of Iberia.
    What about the vandali confederation (vandals) of germanic tribes of modern north poland

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    Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    In roman texts there are no illyrians, it is a geophical term, like british...in the roman census of 5bc , which i supplied before, they had tribes under the term illyricum of which the dalmatian represented 52 percent, next came pannonians with 21 percent
    The Romans had an agenda to expand... invade and expand like all empires.


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    In the early Iron age Romans were genetically mostly Northern Italians and slowly became more East Med because populations of the Southern part settled there (probably lots of Greeks and Phoenicians). Rome reached its height in the Imperial Era. Absolute power corrupts and Rome slowly but surely started to loose power. It became depopulated and absorbed newcomers which brought some North European admixture into the city (Medieval Rome). But the overall Italian population did not change. So when Italian population resettled in Rome during modern times, the average Italian genetic make up was represented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Seems to be quite evident that the largest populations of the time were in the South of the Italian peninsula. In the early Iron age Romans were genetically mostly Northern Italians and slowly became more East Med because populations of the Southern part settled there (probably lots of Greeks and Phoenicians). Rome reached its height in the Imperial Era. Absolute power corrupts and Rome slowly but surely started to loose power. It became depopulated and absorbed newcomers which brought some North European admixture into the city. But the overall Italian population did not change. So when Italian population resettled in Rome during modern times, the average Italian genetic make up was represented.
    At the start of the first Punic wars the romans are a combination of latins, Etruscans and Umbrians ( Sabines, sabellics, Samnites etc )

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    Quote Originally Posted by valentinavalley2 View Post
    The Romans had an agenda to expand... invade and expand like all empires.


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    and so what does this mean in reference

    70 plus percent of Illyrians come from two tribes Dalmatians and pannonians

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    and so what does this mean in reference

    70 plus percent of Illyrians come from two tribes Dalmatians and pannonians
    But they weren’t italic. The name Arbon some are suggesting possibly came from Liburnia, Arbon were an Illyrian Tribe...


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    Quote Originally Posted by valentinavalley2 View Post
    But they weren’t italic. The name Arbon some are suggesting possibly came from Liburnia, Arbon were an Illyrian Tribe...


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    i agree they are not italic

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Y-DNA by Ted Kendall :

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1779018830

    work in progress, more details may be added later

    Latin IA : some R1b-Z2118 = L51xL151 and some R1b-U152

    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2118/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What I meant by outlier was that it is the only Iron Age sample that plots with South Italians and Greeks, while the others plot with North Italians. Clearly there must have been a merger of two populations. I assume that T-L208 sample was of Greek origin.

    I find it intriguing that there were already south Italian-like people in the Republican era, among the other Latins and Etruscans. Instead of being Greek, perhaps he was just closer to the Neolithic Italians from the area of Lazio. Despite being an outlier in this set of samples, it shows there were people that plotted there consistently throughout the ages. From the early days, and beyond the fall of the Roman empire; represented by the graves of Vila Magna.






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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I find it intriguing that there were already south Italian-like people in the Republican era, among the other Latins and Etruscans. Instead of being Greek, perhaps he was just closer to the Neolithic Italians from the area of Lazio. Despite being an outlier in this set of samples, it shows there were people that plotted there consistently throughout the ages. From the early days, and beyond the fall of the Roman empire; represented by the graves of Vila Magna.
    Republican Rome's first expansion was southward. Cumae and Naples, two Greek colonies, were absorbed by 338 BCE, and the other Greek colonies in Apulia, Basilicata and Calabria by 272 BCE. So immigration of Greeks from these areas to Rome would have increased progressively from 4th century BCE.



    However the T1a samples dates from 800 to 500 BCE, so it is harder to explain, unless the dating is off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Republican Rome's first expansion was southward. Cumae and Naples, two Greek colonies, were absorbed by 338 BCE, and the other Greek colonies in Apulia, Basilicata and Calabria by 272 BCE. So immigration of Greeks from these areas to Rome would have increased progressively from 4th century BCE.

    However the T1a samples dates from 800 to 500 BCE, so it is harder to explain, unless the dating is off.
    Greek admixture is absolutely plausible for this sample. It's closest affinity to other samples, is to Myceneans, and other Greeks. Especially given the history you have noted.

    I think samples the Bronze Age and Iron age from southern Italy should help to better understand the true trajectory of Italian genetics throughout the history of the Roman empire.

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    Plausible but improbable.

    After how long is a population to be considered local?

    What about common ancient Italian ancestry with the Very Old Mycenaeans.

    more or less Mycenaean elements:
    like South Italian like Pugliese like Calabrese like Greek like ...

    .. even MyHeritage can’t tell who’s who.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    So here are the iron age so-called Latin samples:


    Palestrina
    Individuals: R435, R436, R437
    Praeneste, modern-day Palestrina, located south of Rome, was one of the largest ancient cities in Iron Age Latium and home to the Praenesti tribe.
    "Praeneste was originally an Etruscan settlement. Like other Etruscan city-states. Praeneste was allied with the Latin League, a loose federation of independent cities"


    Veio Grotta Gramiccia
    Individual: R1015
    The site of Veio (Veii in English, Veio in Italian) is a large Etruscan city, located about 18 kilometers north of Rome.


    Ardea
    Individuals: R850, R851
    Located 4 kilometers from the Tyhrennian coast, the area was once the main urban center of the Rutuli
    "According to modern scholars the Rutuli were an Etruscan people."


    Martinsicuro
    Individuals: R1
    Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a Villanovan village
    "Villanovan culture (c. 900–700 BC) is regarded as the oldest phase of Etruscan civilization."





    So you sample only coastal places that you know for a fact are Etruscan and none of the mountainous regions that are Italic, and voilá Etruscans are now the real Italics and Romans are dirty Middle Eastern immigrants, and the Kurgan theory gets to live for a couple more years, even though this still doesn't top Indo-Iranian languages being transmitted by great-grandmothers. Congratulations to all the clowns involved.

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    @Saetrus take it easy.

    those are the results we have, for now.

    Calmati, ma quante cazz... vai dicendo.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Is this the Italian Nordicist perspective?

    I haven't looked at each of those samples individually yet, but the majority of the Iron Age/Republican Rome Era samples are at least one third Indo-European, which makes them Southern European.

    That's not good enough for you?

    What did you expect? Scandinavians? Germans?

    Honestly, what planet do some of you internet pop gen people come from? You're not playing with a full deck.

    And one more pejorative about people from the Near East and you're history.

    The culture to which all of Europe owes so much derives from the Near East via Greece. It sure as hell didn't come from the steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    So here are the iron age so-called Latin samples:

    Veio Grotta Gramiccia
    Individual: R1015
    The site of Veio (Veii in English, Veio in Italian) is a large Etruscan city, located about 18 kilometers north of Rome.


    Martinsicuro
    Individuals: R1
    Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a Villanovan village
    "Villanovan culture (c. 900–700 BC) is regarded as the oldest phase of Etruscan civilization."

    The sample (a female) from Veio Grotta Gramiccia is labeled in the study as Villanovan and is clearly Etruscan, and the study does not attempt to make her appear as Latin.


    Martinsicuro is a Protovillanovan site, not Villanovan. Protovillanovan is a supranational Bronze facies that is ancestral to many different Iron age facies. Villanovan is instead an Iron age facies which is exclusively Etruscan.

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    My father would say he was a proud steppe barbarian, but that's neither here nor there. By the time of the Roman period, the steppe component of the original Italic tribes had been diluted due to the large Neolithic population in the peninsula, so they would not have resembled northern Europeans in any way; the Po valley is more Gallic than Italic in ancestry and has the most U152 from Celtic tribes as well as lingering Italics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Is this the Italian Nordicist perspective?

    I haven't looked at each of those samples individually yet, but the majority of the Iron Age/Republican Rome Era samples are at least one third Indo-European, which makes them Southern European.

    That's not good enough for you?

    What did you expect? Scandinavians? Germans?

    Honestly, what planet do some of you internet pop gen people come from? You're not playing with a full deck.

    And one more pejorative about people from the Near East and you're history.

    The culture to which all of Europe owes so much derives from the Near East via Greece. It sure as hell didn't come from the steppe.
    So what did come from steppe? Something came for sure after all that made those lines so successful, even as we speak. So is the wealth accumulated due to what Europeans owe to steppe or near east, this could be a good question to answer?


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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    That T sample came with the R1b from ancient LBK areas of central europe...i will check if it also matches the neolithic T samples from malek bulgaria
    R1543 T1a1a - 1-400 CE

    R120 is a T1a2 :) 1000 year younger than R850 (T-L208) too.

    R120:
    y T1a2b L131>Y6033
    mt I1c
    400-600 CE Late Antiquity
    San Ercolano

    R1543:
    y T1a1a L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709
    mt H1e
    1-400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Mazzano Romano

    R850
    Y T1a1a TL208
    mt T2c1f
    800-500 BCE
    Latin_IA
    Ardea

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So what did come from steppe? Something came for sure after all that made those lines so successful, even as we speak. So is the wealth accumulated due to what Europeans owe to steppe or near east, this could be a good question to answer?


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    Blevins, you know all this, surely? Where did agriculture originate? How about metallurgy? It was in the Near East and some of it was developed by EEF like people in the Balkans. How about irrigation systems, cities, monumental buildings, paved roads, writing, law codes? If you want to add empires, throw that in.

    Do I have to go on???

    We learn all this in middle school and high school, at least in the U.S., and from what I've seen in the Anglo world as a whole There's no need to belabor it. It's not some plot.

    The original steppe people were fisher/hunters living in yurts, illiterate, without domesticated animals other than the horse, without farming, without metallurgy. Now, I want to emphasize that's how ALL human beings lived originally, even in the Near East, but there they developed more sophisticated cultures first.


    Every culture builds on prior cultures; they borrow and adapt to suit their own needs, and the better ones add some improvements of their own. Look at the Japanese. Within one hundred years of Commodore Perry's arrival they had totally transformed their culture. There's no shame in it.

    The Greeks of the Aegean learned and added, created something new, something that didn't exist in the Near East, and passed it on to the Romans, who added their own tweaks and then passed it down to all Europeans. Then most of it was lost and had to be re-learned in the Renaissance.

    The steppe people (half EHG and half CHG like) mixed with EEF people when they moved west. By the time the Indo-European speaking people got to Italy, they were
    already a mixture of EEF (with some additional WHG from the resurgence) and steppe. The Beakers were about 50/50 broadly speaking, yes?. You know all this.

    Once the Indo-European speakers got to Italy they admixed with the Neolithic population there, a population much like the EEF, but already with some CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry, perhaps from Greece or perhaps by a more direct route. It further diluted the steppe signal. The same thing happened elsewhere in Southern Europe. It's only in the low population extreme north-east of Europe that you get people over 50% steppe. I mean, think about it, there was barely anyone living up there. Even Britain is more EEF than steppe. Southern Europe was heavily populated, so it's the least steppe.

    Sometimes we just have to step back when we look at historical processes and use some reason and common sense.

    To this day, Northern Italians/Tuscans have the highest EEF ancestry in Europe after certain Sardinians perhaps, followed closely by Spaniards. Look at the plot. They lean toward the Sardinians. These Iron Age and Republican Era samples average out perhaps to the high 30s for steppe ancestry? (I haven't gotten into the nitty gritty of the details yet.) That's not much more than Northern Italians have today.

    What did modern Europeans get from them? Language for most Europeans, of course, parts of the religion prior to Christianity, perhaps a more male centered social structure, although the desert Near Easterners may have them beat. Some parts of the culture, perhaps. Oh, also the domesticated horse, which turned out to be really important for traveling long distances quickly, and eventually for warfare, along with the chariot, although it was the Near Easterners who perfected chariot warfare.

    It's too big a topic to cover in one post on another topic altogether.

    @Joey,
    Half of my ancestry comes from the Po Valley, and I assure you they're not Celts, whatever you mean by that. They don't plot with the people of the Celtic fringe like the Irish or Welsh, and not even with the French. We're our own people.

    Did the Gauls invade in the first millennium BC? Yes, they did, although some, like the Boi, were mostly kicked out. The ones who remained mixed with the people already living there. The Italics and Etruscans, people of mixed Italian Neolithic and Indo-European ancestry, weren't wiped out. Place names and inscriptions show Italic, Etruscan, and Gallic names in the same area.

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    R1016 is not a certain Z2103 it seems:

    Ted Kandell writes: "R1016 is *both* Z2103+ and L51+. Impossible. It's completely ambiguous. Contamination?"
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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