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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Blevins, you know all this, surely? Where did agriculture originate? How about metallurgy? It was in the Near East and some of it was developed by EEF like people in the Balkans. How about irrigation systems, cities, monumental buildings, paved roads, writing, law codes? If you want to add empires, throw that in.

    Do I have to go on???

    We learn all this in middle school and high school, at least in the U.S., and from what I've seen in the Anglo world as a whole There's no need to belabor it. It's not some plot.

    The original steppe people were fisher/hunters living in yurts, illiterate, without domesticated animals other than the horse, without farming, without metallurgy. Now, I want to emphasize that's how ALL human beings lived originally, even in the Near East, but there they developed more sophisticated cultures first.


    Every culture builds on prior cultures; they borrow and adapt to suit their own needs, and the better ones add some improvements of their own. Look at the Japanese. Within one hundred years of Commodore Perry's arrival they had totally transformed their culture. There's no shame in it.

    The Greeks of the Aegean learned and added, created something new, something that didn't exist in the Near East, and passed it on to the Romans, who added their own tweaks and then passed it down to all Europeans. Then most of it was lost and had to be re-learned in the Renaissance.

    The steppe people (half EHG and half CHG like) mixed with EEF people when they moved west. By the time the Indo-European speaking people got to Italy, they were
    already a mixture of EEF (with some additional WHG from the resurgence) and steppe. The Beakers were about 50/50 broadly speaking, yes?. You know all this.

    Once the Indo-European speakers got to Italy they admixed with the Neolithic population there, a population much like the EEF, but already with some CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry, perhaps from Greece or perhaps by a more direct route. It further diluted the steppe signal. The same thing happened elsewhere in Southern Europe. It's only in the low population extreme north-east of Europe that you get people over 50% steppe. I mean, think about it, there was barely anyone living up there. Even Britain is more EEF than steppe. Southern Europe was heavily populated, so it's the least steppe.

    Sometimes we just have to step back when we look at historical processes and use some reason and common sense.

    To this day, Northern Italians/Tuscans have the highest EEF ancestry in Europe after certain Sardinians perhaps, followed closely by Spaniards. Look at the plot. They lean toward the Sardinians. These Iron Age and Republican Era samples average out perhaps to the high 30s for steppe ancestry? (I haven't gotten into the nitty gritty of the details yet.) That's not much more than Northern Italians have today.

    What did modern Europeans get from them? Language for most Europeans, of course, parts of the religion prior to Christianity, perhaps a more male centered social structure, although the desert Near Easterners may have them beat. Some parts of the culture, perhaps. Oh, also the domesticated horse, which turned out to be really important for traveling long distances quickly, and eventually for warfare, along with the chariot, although it was the Near Easterners who perfected chariot warfare.

    It's too big a topic to cover in one post on another topic altogether.

    @Joey,
    Half of my ancestry comes from the Po Valley, and I assure you they're not Celts, whatever you mean by that. They don't plot with the people of the Celtic fringe like the Irish or Welsh, and not even with the French. We're our own people.

    Did the Gauls invade in the first millennium BC? Yes, they did, although some, like the Boi, were mostly kicked out. The ones who remained mixed with the people already living there. The Italics and Etruscans, people of mixed Italian Neolithic and Indo-European ancestry, weren't wiped out. Place names and inscriptions show Italic, Etruscan, and Gallic names in the same area.
    IMG_3925.jpg

    In my eyes, indo-europian were military culture that conquered whoever found in their path.
    In their path they conquered continents and exterminated populations. And yes they did adopted all the things that you said above from the other populations, mostly the conquered ones.



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  2. #152
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Sample R435 Roman Republic, 600-200 BC, Similitude Map:

    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

    K36 results:

    R435
    Basque 5.56
    Central_Euro 2.72
    Eastern_Euro 0.55
    Fennoscandian 3.40
    French 12.68
    Iberian 21.95
    Italian 23.51
    North_Atlantic 6.45
    North_Sea 12.39
    West_Med 10.80



    Sample R1021 Iron Age B, 700-600 BC, Similitude Map:

    K36 results:

    R1021
    Basque 2.44
    Central_Euro 6.81
    East_Balkan 2.65
    East_Central_Euro 0.70
    East_Med 4.06
    Fennoscandian 0.21
    French 8.25
    Iberian 26.56
    Italian 25.56
    Near_Eastern 0.50
    North_African 0.46
    North_Atlantic 3.75
    North_Sea 4.85
    Volga-Ural 0.01
    West_Caucasian 0.69
    West_Med 12.49


  3. #153
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sample R435 Roman Republic, 600-200 BC, Similitude Map:
    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
    K36 results:
    R435
    Basque 5.56
    Central_Euro 2.72
    Eastern_Euro 0.55
    Fennoscandian 3.40
    French 12.68
    Iberian 21.95
    Italian 23.51
    North_Atlantic 6.45
    North_Sea 12.39
    West_Med 10.80

    Sample R1021 Iron Age B, 700-600 BC, Similitude Map:
    K36 results:
    R1021
    Basque 2.44
    Central_Euro 6.81
    East_Balkan 2.65
    East_Central_Euro 0.70
    East_Med 4.06
    Fennoscandian 0.21
    French 8.25
    Iberian 26.56
    Italian 25.56
    Near_Eastern 0.50
    North_African 0.46
    North_Atlantic 3.75
    North_Sea 4.85
    Volga-Ural 0.01
    West_Caucasian 0.69
    West_Med 12.49
    If you could do the following, I'd appreciate it.
    R850, R851, R475, R437
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    I would like to see the imperial ones upload to gedmatch .....
    By the way
    Dacian war : imperial time
    Morcomanic wars (yes the one in gladiator) : imperial time
    many of the wars were in that period...
    Last edited by kingjohn; 10-11-19 at 19:22.

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    But first, something I won’t update: it seems clear that Imperial Romans were genetically distinct and quite cosmopolitan in comparison to their Republican predecessors, but neither did they leave a clear imprint down to the future. The histories are quite clear that Imperial Rome was a reflection of the whole Roman Empire, with eminent intellectuals and aristocrats congregating from all corners of the world-state. That being said, the results from the paper confirmed the weight of the eastern provinces in their influence and demographic heft.

    And yet for all that heft, the scions of the eastern provinces who settled down in and around the Eternal City left few descendants judging from modern Italian DNA. Why? Because cities were massive demographic sinks in the best of times, with endemic disease, combined with periodic shocks like plagues and invasions.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...u-less-fecund/

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    But first, something I won’t update: it seems clear that Imperial Romans were genetically distinct and quite cosmopolitan in comparison to their Republican predecessors, but neither did they leave a clear imprint down to the future. The histories are quite clear that Imperial Rome was a reflection of the whole Roman Empire, with eminent intellectuals and aristocrats congregating from all corners of the world-state. That being said, the results from the paper confirmed the weight of the eastern provinces in their influence and demographic heft.

    And yet for all that heft, the scions of the eastern provinces who settled down in and around the Eternal City left few descendants judging from modern Italian DNA. Why? Because cities were massive demographic sinks in the best of times, with endemic disease, combined with periodic shocks like plagues and invasions.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...u-less-fecund/



    The near eastern tail had been severed after the end of the Imperial era. However, other than some peripheral urban enclaves, this study cannot determine how much of a fixture it was throughout Roman Italy. However, the extinction of these people in Italy, should logically indicate that their presence was not prevalent.




    The study itself models the surviving native population around Rome as as 40% "European C7" + 60% "Mediterranean C6"; who plotted mainly around Central to South Italians.

    Just in case it is not clear enough, Mediterranean C6 cluster is right on top of South Italians. As the Neolthic Italians from Rome, are on the same axis on the PCA:




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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    R1543 T1a1a - 1-400 CE

    R120 is a T1a2 :) 1000 year younger than R850 (T-L208) too.

    R120:
    y T1a2b L131>Y6033
    mt I1c
    400-600 CE Late Antiquity
    San Ercolano

    R1543:
    y T1a1a L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709
    mt H1e
    1-400 CE
    Imperial Rome
    Mazzano Romano

    R850
    Y T1a1a TL208
    mt T2c1f
    800-500 BCE
    Latin_IA
    Ardea
    y Ts Romans:

    R120 ~ C. Italian
    R1543 ~ S. Italian
    R850 ~ S. Italian

    ( ~ = about )


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    I can see that 1 individual latin in the iron age period was in cluster c4 eastern med that is cool...

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    are some of those clusters based on modern populations? if so wouldn't it be logical that the closer you get to modern times, the better you can model populations with modern clusters of populations that live close?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post


    are some of those clusters based on modern populations? if so wouldn't it be logical that the closer you get to modern times, the better you can model older populations with modern clusters of populations that live close?


    I think they are ancient clusters from the study, organized by broard ethnic grouping.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    I can see that 1 individual latin in the iron age period was in cluster c4 eastern med that is cool...
    I think you may be confusing 45, for 850. He is Mycenaean-like (C6 Mediterranean). Also, C5 is eastern Mediterranean, C4 is Near Eastern.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post



    The near eastern tail had been severed after the end of the Imperial era. However, other than some peripheral urban enclaves, this study cannot determine how much of a fixture it was throughout Roman Italy. However, the extinction of these people in Italy, should logically indicate that their presence was not prevalent.




    The study itself models the surviving native population around Rome as as 40% "European C7" + 60% "Mediterranean C6"; who plotted mainly around Central to South Italians.

    Just in case it is not clear enough, Mediterranean C6 cluster is right on top of South Italians. As the Neolthic Italians from Rome, are on the same axis on the PCA:




    A medieval re-peopling of the Central-to-South with ancestry from C7 (Iron Age Romans) and C6 (Mycenaean/Greek-like) makes absolute sense to me:


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    4 members found this post helpful.
    It is unbelievable how many users on Eurogenes insist on the eastern origin of the Etruscans when DNA evidence is all in favour of the western origin of the Etruscans. How can Davidski tolerate some comments that only look like low-level trXolling?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think you may be confusing 45, for 850. He is Mycenaean-like (C6 Mediterranean). Also, C5 is eastern Mediterranean, C4 is Near Eastern.

    yes you are correct my mistake

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think they are ancient clusters from the study, organized by broard ethnic grouping.
    ah i see. that is confusing. is this still really usefull? i mean, imperial rome can be modeled best with the samples from imperial rome, while early modern and medieval can be modeled best with samples from early modern, medieval. and those samples/clusters probably resemble modern pops. those clusters aren't source populations, or am i wrong?

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    It is unbelievable how many users on Eurogenes insist on the eastern origin of the Etruscans when DNA evidence is all in favour of the western origin of the Etruscans. How can Davidski tolerate some comments that only look like low-level trXolling?
    You won't have to worry about low-level t-rolling on this site. Thanks to the superior diligence of the moderation staff.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You won't have to worry about low-level t-rolling on this site. Thanks to the superior diligence of the moderation staff.

    He has banned on Eurogenes users for much less, if tolerates them shows no respect for Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    ah i see. that is confusing. is this still really usefull? i mean, imperial rome can be modeled best with the samples from imperial rome, while early modern and medieval can be modeled best with samples from early modern, medieval. and those samples/clusters probably resemble modern pops. those clusters aren't source populations, or am i wrong?

    what if south italy was like minoans, somewhere between modern south italy and ABA, roughly were the east med/near east cluster is located? the C6 cluster started to exist later because those south italians mixed with the central/north italians and a bit from more north? italy might have been a cline from latin-like to minoan/ABA like.

    this "near east tail", individuals south of modern south italians, was maybe only partially caused by migrants from near east during imperial age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    what if south italy was like minoans, somewhere between modern south italy and ABA, roughly were the east med/near east cluster is located? the C6 cluster started to exist later because those south italians mixed with the central/north italians and a bit from more north? italy might have been a cline from latin-like to minoan/ABA like.

    this "near east tail", individuals south of modern south italians, was maybe only partially caused by migrants from near east during imperial age.

    maybe syrian /Lebanese merchants/ traders
    who came to rome

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    It is unbelievable how many users on Eurogenes insist on the eastern origin of the Etruscans when DNA evidence is all in favour of the western origin of the Etruscans. How can Davidski tolerate some comments that only look like low-level trXolling?
    It's because he wants that to be out in the public domain, as it aids in his Storm Front like endeavor to trash Italians, and make them look as untermenschen as he possibly can, and any additional "Near Eastern" ancestry does that from his warped world view. My God, are you people all newcomers to this? Does no one remember the atrocious stuff he published in the old days?

    He does the Nazis even one better. He wants to prove they were wrong in viewing the Slavs as untermenschen scheduled to be next on the chopping block. He wants to prove the Slavs are the most "steppe" like, and therefore the most ubermensch, and therefore should have been the official allies of the Germans. I believe he mentioned that his father was one of the turncoats who fought for them.

    We spoil his plan, because the Romans weren't highly steppe people at all, and the Renaissance Italians even less so.

    It's a real bummer when history proves you're a jerk and your theories are crap.

    I wonder if it ever occurs to these numbskulls that the people they called untermenschen and put into gas chambers had, on average, a higher IQ and more talent than they had? They barely had a Berlin Philharmonic during the War because more than half the players were carted off to gas chambers. What also would have been the fate of their U2 rockets if they hadn't killed or exiled all those Jewish physicists? Maybe it would have worked in time to save them. So who were the untermenschen in that scenario? It's one of the great ironies of that period.

    Hell, that crazy poster may be one of his socks, or one of the people who fund his research. He sure doesn't seem to have a day job if you get my drift.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    R116 the "outlier" with high Steppe dated to 0-200 CE. Maybe he was a Gallic immigrant to Rome?:

    (this sample has the highest level of Steppe admixture out of all Imperial samples, so not "typical")

    His Y-DNA haplogroup: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

    K36 results:

    Arabian 0.67
    Armenian 0.63
    Basque 5.90
    Central_Euro 3.24
    East_Balkan 6.25
    East_Central_Euro 3.07
    East_Med 0.02
    Eastern_Euro 3.92
    Fennoscandian 4.08
    French 7.39
    Iberian 25.17
    Italian 16.47
    Near_Eastern 0.74
    North_Atlantic 7.52
    North_Sea 12.29
    Volga-Ural 1.36
    West_Med 1.29

    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    what if south italy was like minoans, somewhere between modern south italy and ABA, roughly were the east med/near east cluster is located? the C6 cluster started to exist later because those south italians mixed with the central/north italians and a bit from more north? italy might have been a cline from latin-like to minoan/ABA like.

    this "near east tail", individuals south of modern south italians, was maybe only partially caused by migrants from near east during imperial age.
    It wasn't a Near Eastern Tail, it was called a "Levant Tail". I will be surprised if there was a lot of it in Southern Italy during the first Millennium BC, although there may have been some. What was probably there was a tail into Anatolia, if you like, so pretty Mycenaean like. The Mycenaeans are pretty damn close to those Imperial Samples anyway, the ones that aren't part of the tail into the Levant.

    I still think there was a large community in Rome, and probably in other Italian port cities, and port cities like Massalia, if they ever check them, and more to be found in ports in Spain, of Jews, Phoenicians/Syrians, and others who were there as craftsmen and merchants, people who had their own ethnic enclaves and burial sites. Did some intermarry with their hosts and leave descendants behind? Probably, as happens in New York City with its own ethnic enclaves. Most, however, probably largely did not, again if we take our lessons from history. How much intermarriage is there in London between Muslims and "local" British people? Religion is a huge barrier to integration, as are vastly different customs. As I said, it took 1000 years for the WHG and EEF to start to mingle. How many local Romans do you think would have been willing to undergo adult male circumcision in order to marry a Jewish bride. Jewish girls were barely let out of the house by themselves.

    Largely, they just disappeared as historical conditions changed. Once again, just look at what happens to yDna "J1". Trade moved, craft worked died out. Then there was the 6th century plague and just the general destruction of the cities.

    Did, as Khan now opines, some change come from movement from the north? Yes, a bit, but if the change came from Northern movement, it was mostly northern Italians, not some mythical movement from western Europe, not even Central Eastern Europe as one would expect from Goths and Lombards.

    We've been down this road before. Hellenthal et al, including that dunderhead Christian Capelli, from whom I expected better things, was convinced the "mixing" he saw was from a mass migration during Antiquity and Early Medieval times into Italy from the Near East. The dunderheads at anthrogenica eagerly jumped onto the bandwagon. I argued at the time until I was blue in the face that there was NO evidence in history or archaeology of any such movement. Like wise, there is no indication of any movement post Imperial Age of masses of people from Spain and France moving into Italy. It just didn't happen.

    If Polako tries to prove it through his usual massaging of the data, it's just plain crap.

    In that regard, regard with extreme caution anything based on his K-36 data. For goodness' sakes, it's like bringing in an art forger to authenticate art for you. How can you possible trust him?

    People involved in this hobby should spend a year in a criminal prosecution bureau. It would cure the incredible naivete I see on constant display.

    Our discussion of the wrong headed Hellenthal et al paper. Never do population genetics based on modern samples, especially when you don't have a clue about archaeology or history.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ght=Hellenthal

  23. #173
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    R116 the "outlier" with high Steppe dated to 0-200 CE. Maybe he was a Gallic immigrant to Rome?:

    (this sample has the highest level of Steppe admixture out of all Imperial samples, so not "typical")

    His Y-DNA haplogroup: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

    K36 results:

    Arabian 0.67
    Armenian 0.63
    Basque 5.90
    Central_Euro 3.24
    East_Balkan 6.25
    East_Central_Euro 3.07
    East_Med 0.02
    Eastern_Euro 3.92
    Fennoscandian 4.08
    French 7.39
    Iberian 25.17
    Italian 16.47
    Near_Eastern 0.74
    North_Atlantic 7.52
    North_Sea 12.29
    Volga-Ural 1.36
    West_Med 1.29

    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

    If I bought the complete validity of anything based on Eurogenes work, I might say he was a partial or complete descendant of Gallic tribesmen who came into Northern Italy and then moved to Rome for whatever reason.

    Maybe it's time for people to review the history of Northern Italy:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...taly+Roman+Era

    Too bad the authors didn't read it before writing their paper.

  24. #174
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    K36 needs to get updated with new samples, from Lecce too (the cause for a lack of dark red)

    I don’t mind, but to be realistic, it shouldn’t make a South Pugliese like me Roman, or Half Roman and Half Cyclades.
    (unless I’m wrong and is what it is)

    23:


    AncestryDNA or Combined

  25. #175
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    i prefer eurogenes k13 :)

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