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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    For me para Modern Group:





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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    It is unbelievable how many users on Eurogenes insist on the eastern origin of the Etruscans when DNA evidence is all in favour of the western origin of the Etruscans. How can Davidski tolerate some comments that only look like low-level trXolling?
    All of it? There are some dissenting studies. I doubt the question has been put to bed, and it may never be.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2189563/

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2008224

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25230205

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0119242

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0192567
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    An incredible paper! So the Latins were South European after all and identical to the Etruscans. The other Italic tribes?

    Who agrees with this analysis of Anthrogenica? Does the Etruscan language then come from the fertile crescent?


    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Just a quick note as I see many people trying to discuss the origins of the Etruscans, well autosomally they are of course EFF and Steppe, but I would like to add that if the Etruscan language is the survival of the Neolithic language of Central Italy being those from Le Marche, it is clearly that they can from a Fertile Crescent source, and would actually tie some of the religious aspects of the Etruscans which are identical to Mesopotamian and Anatolian groups. Its very possible at this point to speculate that Impressed Ware Neolithic could be the pre cursor to the Tyrrhenian languages and the other Neolithic Anatolian communities we see in the Balkans, Central Europe and Iberia can represent the Ibero-Sardinian languages.

    This is of course a major speculation and something I would have never considered before seeing R17 and R19, as I personally believed the Eastern migration theory and it seems to be majorly refuted or flat out wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If I bought the complete validity of anything based on Eurogenes work, I might say he was a partial or complete descendant of Gallic tribesmen who came into Northern Italy and then moved to Rome for whatever reason.

    Maybe it's time for people to review the history of Northern Italy:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...taly+Roman+Era

    Too bad the authors didn't read it before writing their paper.
    Actually he is also modelled as French in study's Table S28, check:



    ^^^
    So just like this similarity map shows (highest similarity to France):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It wasn't a Near Eastern Tail, it was called a "Levant Tail". I will be surprised if there was a lot of it in Southern Italy during the first Millennium BC, although there may have been some. What was probably there was a tail into Anatolia, if you like, so pretty Mycenaean like. The Mycenaeans are pretty damn close to those Imperial Samples anyway, the ones that aren't part of the tail into the Levant.

    .
    sry, i called it near east tail because the study mentines a "near eastern" "east med" source probably because the levant is near east. i'll call it levant tail from now on.
    see figure S18 in the supplements, it's a tail to levant, but also bronce age anatolia. and while the myceneans are indo europeans, living closer to steppe, south italy might not have been indo-european at the beginning of the iron age. i know, as it stands there is this tail probably from migration from east.

    anyways, i have some concerns regarding your comparison with HG's and farmers and also new york city. HG's didn't live together with farmers in the same cities, they also were culturally and probably also visually way more different from each other than mediterranean populations in the roman period.

    in new york city, the migrant groups increased fast in a relatively short amount of time and many are first generation migrants. that might not be comparable with ancient rome were migration was probably slower and the people with migrant background who lived there might have lived there already for several generations. also those were mostly people from other mediterranean populations from within the same empire.

    i don't know about the intermarriage rate of muslims and local british people. what are the numbers? how does it change from first generation to second generation migrants? in france it changes drastically but there the data sadly only gives the spouses french nationality and no indication for a possible migration background. how does it change based on location and education level? is it the same in all countries?
    what about the intermarriage rate of other religions or non-european but also european ethnicities with local british people?
    Last edited by Ailchu; 10-11-19 at 22:31.

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    All of it? There are some dissenting studies. I doubt the question has been put to bed, and it may never be.

    Can you really not understand for yourself that what you posted are old and outdated studies that base their conclusions on a kind of cherrypicking of the analysis of modern samples?

    Today we have the DNA of the Etruscans, and the studies you posted cannot be put on the same level as the DNA of the Etruscans.

    You doubt the question has been put to bed, and it may never be, simply because you want it to. It's not on the basis of studies on modern samples that you can challenge the DNA results of the Etruscans themselves. And, moreover, in conjunction with the publication of a study that claims that during the Roman imperial era there were numerous migrations from the East to Italy. Whatever those studies have found, it may well have arrived in the imperial era.

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    If there were already foreigners to put it in some way that they came to emperors or were able to access senior citizens less famous in history, they could have been integrated as Romans because it must be a necessity for socio-political issues and for the regeneration and maintenance of the Empire. You can not sell me that you are the best in the world and at the same time prevent me from entering, I think they did it around in what is done today, it should be something attractive and at the same time possible to be Roman, contrary to what we are seeing for example in America: I am desirable, the best in the world but you do not enter, I think that in the Roman case the door should be open in some way as a way of perpetuating itself.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by alais View Post
    Who agrees with this analysis of Anthrogenica? Does the Etruscan language then come from the fertile crescent?
    Did the EEF come from the fertile crescent? No. So there is no evidence either that Etruscan language comes from the fertile crescent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    sry, i called it near east tail because the study mentines a "near eastern" "east med" source probably because the levant is near east. i'll call it levant tail from now on.
    see figure S18 in the supplements, it's a tail to levant, but also bronce age anatolia. and while the myceneans are indo europeans, living closer to steppe, south italy might not have been indo-european at the beginning of the iron age. i know, as it stands there is this tail probably from migration from east.

    anyways, i have some concerns regarding your comparison with HG's and farmers and also new york city. HG's didn't live together with farmers in the same cities, they also were culturally and probably also visually more different from each other than mediterranean populations in the roman period.

    in new york city, the migrant groups increased fast in a relatively short amount of time and many are first generation migrants. that might not be comparable with ancient rome were migration was probably slower and the people with migrant background who lived there might have lived there already for several generations. also those were mostly people from other mediterranean populations from within the same empire.

    i don't know about the intermarriage rate of muslims and local british people. what are the numbers? how does it change from first generation to second generation migrants? in france it changes drastically but there the data sadly only gives the spouses french nationality and no indication for a possible migration background. how does it change based on location and education level? is it the same in all countries?
    what about the intermarriage rate of other religions or non-european but also european ethnicities with local british people?
    Ailchu, I don't want to take the thread off-topic again, so I'll be brief. Yes, there is a distressing gap in the data in this paper of virtually the entire Bronze Age, but we know there were Indo-Europeans in northern Italy at that time in the form of the Parma Beakers.

    We have Beakers from Sicily which don't have very much if any Indo-European, so I don't know what precisely the data will show for Southern Italy. However, we know that there were Italic tribes there, tribes which would have been a mixture of the original Italic speakers entering the peninsula who then moved south, but then there was, from what we already know, also a Bronze Age migration from the Near East which hit the South Balkans, Greece, and presumably Southern Italy. In addition to all that we have the Greek migrations of the first century BC, who would probably still have been pretty Mycenaean like. Also, you seem to have forgotten the genetic make-up of the Mycenaeans. The people of whom the Iliad and the Odyssey recount legends may have had an Indo-European language and social structure, and horses and chariots and a war like mentality, but they were mostly Anatolian Neo and CHG/Iran Neo. Their steppe percentage was extremely small, much smaller than that of the Iron Age people living around Rome.

    You can look all this up. It's all in the papers. I'm writing in haste, so if I've make little errors, I hope people correct them.

    As for inter-marriage, it's true that Rome was a "stew" of different peoples for about 400 years, and New York City and London only for about 100-150 years. It's still a considerable amount of time.

    There is extremely little intermarriage in New York between blacks and whites and between East and South Asians and whites. (I'm using "whites" for people of European descent.) Up until the time when I was in university, Jewish parents were still sitting shiva for children who married "gentiles", and they were second and third generation. I knew and know people who were in that situation. Yes, it has changed, but only because the Jews have given up on a lot of the parts of their religion which kept them apart, i.e. eating only kosher, ritual baths for wives, doing absolutely nothing on the Sabbath, accepting the children of a gentile mother as Jews. That all came about because of the Reform movement. That is completely contrary to the situation in the classical world. Yes, as I explained in another post, there was a movement of Jews to assimilate to Hellenistic society. The Sadducees are an example of that. So is Philo of Alexandria. However, the increasing polarization pushed by the Zealots, and then the Roman Jewish wars, meant the ascendancy of the Pharisees and the most restrictive type of Judaism. They turned inward and closed off contact with pagans and Christians both. For a gentile who wanted to convert, he had to undergo adult circumcision, and say goodby to any advancement in the Roman world. He would also be subject to the periodic purges of Jews from Rome throughout the time of the Empire. The majority of the Jews, who were indeed a large part of the population of Rome and other mercantile, port cities, who blended into the "Roman World" most completely were probably Jewish Christians, but even there they were marginalized and forced out to a large degree. If you want more information, the best original source is "The Acts of the Apostles". Constantine and the later Christian Emperors were, in our understanding of the word, Anti-Semites, and laws prohibiting the marriage of Jews and Christians were quickly enacted. So, in addition to the Jewish authorities in the Imperial Era prohibiting inter-marriage, by the end of the Empire, the Roman Emperors were prohibiting it as well.

    For the third time, you just have to look at what happened to yDNA "J1". It virtually disappeared.

    Now, does that mean that there wasn't some intermarriage between "locals" and people from these foreign enclaves? Of course not. I'm sure there was some, but unless they had the money and resources to move away to the east and the safer Eastern Roman Empire, they died in those cities of plague, hunger, or just as victims of war.

    My people lived through the destruction of their cities. We know what happens. Look at Germany itself as an example. You think that after World War II people from the East didn't fill in the areas in western Germany that had been devastated? Or how about even before that after the religious wars in Germany. History repeats itself.

    As for England, this is what the data shows: In 2001, 2% of all marriages in the United Kingdom were inter-ethnic.[411] Seem like a lot to you?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Actually he is also modelled as French in study's Table S28, check:



    ^^^
    So just like this similarity map shows (highest similarity to France):

    Like I said, if people knew anything about Northern Italian history, maybe they would have figured out he was just one of those Northern Italians with more Gallic ancestry. Still, by his estimation, and those of the people around him, a "ROMAN". Just read the book on Northern Italy in the Roman Era, ok?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by alais View Post
    An incredible paper! So the Latins were South European after all and identical to the Etruscans. The other Italic tribes?

    Who agrees with this analysis of Anthrogenica? Does the Etruscan language then come from the fertile crescent?
    No one with an IQ over 80. First of all, you have to define what you mean by the Fertile Crescent.

    Here it is:


    Now, anyone with some functioning brain cells who has been reading the scientific papers knows that the people who went to Europe 000 years ago and brought farming with them came from either northwestern Anatolia or perhaps Southern Anatolia via Cyprus.

    I hardly think "The Fertile Crescent" is an apt description. If anything, a few of the migrants came from a tiny, peripheral part of the "Fertile Crescent". We know very little about the genetic make-up of Mesopotamians; how the hell do we know they had the same make-up as the people who went to Europe during the Neolithic and what language they spoke? Anatolia alone could have had dozens of languages. Look at the number of Amerindian languages, and yet they all came from one stock. So why on earth include the Mesopotamians?

    Second of all, this is indeed a major speculation. We don't know where Etruscan as a language originated. That's it. Until you have a language from the Near East which resembles it, stop with the story telling.

    These people got into major trouble with all their vast speculations. You'd think they'd know enough now to cut it out.

    I will say one thing: at least "Principe" admits he was wrong. What he doesn't do is take back all the insults he hurled at people who always doubted the Eastern migration theory and were called racists for their pains. Maybe, just maybe, they just knew more about history and archaeology and had read dozens and dozens of books on the subject.

    Think of that: doing extensive research before opining.

    Ed. So whose sock are you, ntendeo?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ailchu, I don't want to take the thread off-topic again, so I'll be brief. Yes, there is a distressing gap in the data in this paper of virtually the entire Bronze Age, but we know there were Indo-Europeans in northern Italy at that time in the form of the Parma Beakers.

    We have Beakers from Sicily which don't have very much if any Indo-European, so I don't know what precisely the data will show for Southern Italy. However, we know that there were Italic tribes there, tribes which would have been a mixture of the original Italic speakers entering the peninsula who then moved south, but then there was, from what we already know, also a Bronze Age migration from the Near East which hit the South Balkans, Greece, and presumably Southern Italy. In addition to all that we have the Greek migrations of the first century BC, who would probably still have been pretty Mycenaean like. Also, you seem to have forgotten the genetic make-up of the Mycenaeans. The people of whom the Iliad and the Odyssey recount legends may have had an Indo-European language and social structure, and horses and chariots and a war like mentality, but they were mostly Anatolian Neo and CHG/Iran Neo. Their steppe percentage was extremely small, much smaller than that of the Iron Age people living around Rome.

    You can look all this up. It's all in the papers. I'm writing in haste, so if I've make little errors, I hope people correct them.

    As for inter-marriage, it's true that Rome was a "stew" of different peoples for about 400 years, and New York City and London only for about 100-150 years. It's still a considerable amount of time.

    There is extremely little intermarriage in New York between blacks and whites and between East and South Asians and whites. (I'm using "whites" for people of European descent.) Up until the time when I was in university, Jewish parents were still sitting shiva for children who married "gentiles", and they were second and third generation. I knew and know people who were in that situation. Yes, it has changed, but only because the Jews have given up on a lot of the parts of their religion which kept them apart, i.e. eating only kosher, ritual baths for wives, doing absolutely nothing on the Sabbath, accepting the children of a gentile mother as Jews. That all came about because of the Reform movement. That is completely contrary to the situation in the classical world. Yes, as I explained in another post, there was a movement of Jews to assimilate to Hellenistic society. The Sadducees are an example of that. So is Philo of Alexandria. However, the increasing polarization pushed by the Zealots, and then the Roman Jewish wars, meant the ascendancy of the Pharisees and the most restrictive type of Judaism. They turned inward and closed off contact with pagans and Christians both. For a gentile who wanted to convert, he had to undergo adult circumcision, and say goodby to any advancement in the Roman world. He would also be subject to the periodic purges of Jews from Rome throughout the time of the Empire. The majority of the Jews, who were indeed a large part of the population of Rome and other mercantile, port cities, who blended into the "Roman World" most completely were probably Jewish Christians, but even there they were marginalized and forced out to a large degree. If you want more information, the best original source is "The Acts of the Apostles". Constantine and the later Christian Emperors were, in our understanding of the word, Anti-Semites, and laws prohibiting the marriage of Jews and Christians were quickly enacted. So, in addition to the Jewish authorities in the Imperial Era prohibiting inter-marriage, by the end of the Empire, the Roman Emperors were prohibiting it as well.

    For the third time, you just have to look at what happened to yDNA "J1". It virtually disappeared.

    Now, does that mean that there wasn't some intermarriage between "locals" and people from these foreign enclaves? Of course not. I'm sure there was some, but unless they had the money and resources to move away to the east and the safer Eastern Roman Empire, they died in those cities of plague, hunger, or just as victims of war.

    My people lived through the destruction of their cities. We know what happens. Look at Germany itself as an example. You think that after World War II people from the East didn't fill in the areas in western Germany that had been devastated? Or how about even before that after the religious wars in Germany. History repeats itself.

    As for England, this is what the data shows: In 2001, 2% of all marriages in the United Kingdom were inter-ethnic.[411] Seem like a lot to you?
    Now, would there have been a problem with Italics admixing with Greeks? I highly doubt it. They had too many things in common and the Romans admired them too much. Plus, it might have been going on in Southern Italy, among people who both had some Iran Neo/CHG in addition to Anatolian Neolithic, for a long, long time.

    I'm talking about that "tail into the Levant", about people with whom the Romans had very little in common in terms of religion, culture, language etc.

    People don't seem to be aware of it, but there were periodic expulsions of all Jews from Rome from both before the Roman Jewish Wars and after them.

    Just an aside, but doesn't anybody else find it odd that what racist Nordicist are so worried about is a relatively minor different in terms of CHG/Iran Neo.

    If you look at Europeans like the British and Germans, the ones who along with the French and the Italians have given the most to European Civilization, and add up the Anatolian Neo and the CHG in the steppe people, it's the majority of their ancestry. What, the CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry is somehow not objectionable if it comes mixed with EHG, but "is" objectionable if mixed with Albanian like Neo ancestry, ancestry which they already have.

    People have asked me why I like this graphic. It's because it's simple and easy to understand, and because it's not based on Admixture, but on higher order statistics. Cut that green in half and add it to the orange. Most Europeans are way more than half "Near Eastern", no matter when it came or with which groups it was mixed.



    If people don't see that, they're wilfully blind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Can you really not understand for yourself that what you posted are old and outdated studies that base their conclusions on a kind of cherrypicking of the analysis of modern samples?

    Today we have the DNA of the Etruscans, and the studies you posted cannot be put on the same level as the DNA of the Etruscans.

    You doubt the question has been put to bed, and it may never be, simply because you want it to. It's not on the basis of studies on modern samples that you can challenge the DNA results of the Etruscans themselves. And, moreover, in conjunction with the publication of a study that claims that during the Roman imperial era there were numerous migrations from the East to Italy. Whatever those studies have found, it may well have arrived in the imperial era.
    I was responding to the claim that the "DNA evidence is all in favour of the western origin of the Etruscans". I'm not arguing the opposite case, but just don't think it is a complete slam dunk. Nor am I arguing for a large lock-stock-and-barrel "migration".

    I don't disagree that the Etruscan population was mostly neolithic/steppe. If the original language carriers were not, but were a one-time, male-biased, early iron-age insertion (the Sea Peoples?), any "eastern" genetic imprint could have been rapidly diluted down to nothing, as was the case with the Philistines, for instance. They might also have already been heterogeneous, as the Philistines were speculated to have been.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is completely illogical.

    The only evidence that MATTERS about an ancient group's genetics is the genetic evidence from THAT GROUP. In this case it's the genomes of the actual ETRUSCANS. We HAVE them. They are indistinguishable from LATINS. If the leak from the upcoming paper is correct, as the leak about this one was correct, the males carried R1b and I1.

    What is so difficult to comprehend? What more proof could anyone want?

    The following is pure, unadulterated, absolute speculation that someone has dreamed up to try to save their reputations or prejudices. Where is there a shred of evidence to support it?

    "If the original language carriers were not, but were a one-time, male-biased, early iron-age insertion (the Sea Peoples?), any "eastern" genetic imprint could have been rapidly diluted down to nothing, as was the case with the Philistines, for instance. They might also have already been heterogeneous, as the Philistines were speculated to have been."

    Obviously some people haven't been keeping up with the literature. The Sea Peoples were NOT Lydians. They seem to have been Europeans, perhaps from Greece, perhaps from Italy. Plus, there's someone who knows a lot about their language and has compared it to Etruscan, about which we know next to nothing, and sees a comparison?

    How can you say a language came from the Near East, when the only person who posited such a link between Etruscan and any ancient Near Eastern languages is an amateur whose speculations aren't even considered in linguistic circles.

    What then, also, do you make of the Basques? They were also a mix of Neolithic farmer and Indo-European; they're actually MORE Indo-European than the Etruscans. Did the Lydians from Anatolia go there as well to bequeath them their language?

    You're reading the wrong people, my friend. Be careful. It can rot the brain.

    If people are quoting people like that and Fallmayer, for that matter, you can be sure of one thing, their education stopped with the "scholars" of the late 19th and early 20th century. Time to move on.

    Just as an aside, did it ever occur to you why these people so prefer the "story" of Herodotus to that of Dionysius? Think about it.

    "
    Dionysius of Halicarnassus, a Greek writer living in Rome, dismisses many of the ancient theories of the other Greek historians and postulates that the Etruscans were indigenous people who had always lived in Etruria.[33]
    For this reason, therefore, I am persuaded that the Pelasgians are a different people from the Tyrrhenians. And I do not believe, either, that the Tyrrhenians were a colony of the Lydians; for they do not use the same language as the latter, nor can it be alleged that, though they no longer speak a similar tongue, they still retain some other indications of their mother country. For they neither worship the same gods as the Lydians nor make use of similar laws or institutions, but in these very respects they differ more from the Lydians than from the Pelasgians. Indeed, those probably come nearest to the truth who declare that the nation migrated from nowhere else, but was native to the country, since it is found to be a very ancient nation and to agree with no other either in its language or in its manner of living.
    Furthermore, Dionysius of Halicarnassus is the first ancient writer who reports the endonym of the Etruscans: Rasenna.
    The Romans, however, give them other names: from the country they once inhabited, named Etruria, they call them Etruscans, and from their knowledge of the ceremonies relating to divine worship, in which they excel others, they now call them, rather inaccurately, Tusci, but formerly, with the same accuracy as the Greeks, they called them Thyoscoï.[34] Their own name for themselves, however, is the same as that of one of their leaders, Rasenna.


  17. #192
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    Agree with above
    What i was taught at school was that the fertile cresent was only between the euphrates and tigres rivers set up by hammurabi and his babylonians, even after the fall of the babylonians to the assyrians the area was still the only fertile cresent.....somebody seems to have extended the area but i cannot find who or why
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Ok it seems the z2103 assignment is indeed correct.

    So the Italic male lines are probably:
    U152>Z56
    U152>L2
    R1b-Z2118

    And the Etruscan:
    I1.

    This means the Z2103 and L283 are both non-local, neither italic or etruscan, but illyrian samples. Something we know already from the 2018 grugni paper.

    Massive discovery.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    From this paper and Grugni 2018, we now know which Y-lines were introduced into Italy by the Illyrians and Messapics:
    J2b-L283
    R1b-Z2103
    E-V13 (still not clear which exact clades, but Grugni proved that it correlates with J2b distribution and places of Illyric settlement.)

    Obviously these are the same three paternal groups of Albanians. Very significant.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    If anyone seriously wants to argue that L283 is not illyrian but authentically etruscan, it necessitates the positing of a etruscan migration from the illyrian coast lol. Good luck with that.

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    Something that struck me but we haven't yet discussed is the fact that the modeling for the Iron Age samples takes not Bell Beaker but Yamnaya.

    Now, why would that be?

    Was it a group that split off in the steppe before we get the split leading to Bell Beakers? Perhaps it is from all those kurgans in Hungary whose samples have still not been tested? Did this group have more of the CHG/Iran like ancestry than the Bell Beakers? It could then have diffused through the Balkans as well as Italy.

    Or, did that group move through the Balkans and then into Italy, picking up more "Anatolian like or Iranian like" ancestry deposited there during the Bronze Age? Or does it come from diffusion up from Southern Italy?

    What then of the Parma Beakers?

    Are we talking about two waves? Perhaps the Parma Beakers contributed more to the Etruscans, with their slightly more Spanish Bronze Age tilt, while the slightly more "eastern" tilt of the Latins comes from this other group?

    Any ideas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    If anyone seriously wants to argue that L283 is not illyrian but authentically etruscan, it necessitates the positing of a etruscan migration from the illyrian coast lol. Good luck with that.
    so, why are Albanians autosomaly closer to Tuscans, east shifted,? could this exchange be the reason?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Wait, wait, an Etruscan is I1?! Are you sure it's not a badly dated Lombard? And I've also read somewhere that Messapian is close to the Albanian language, so at least THIS makes sense!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I've had just about enough of this nonsense. NO MODERN NATIONALITY OWNS A HAPLOGROUP!

    PERIOD

    Steppe people moved into Hungary, the Carpathians, the Balkans, Italy etc. They picked up ancestry along the way. Maybe some came directly into Italy from Hungary. Indeed, that's extremely possible. Maybe some came to Italy through the Balkans. That's extremely possible too.

    Who knows where that particular y lineage originated? Maybe it originated in Hungary, maybe in the Carpathians, maybe in the Balkans. WHO THE HELL CARES?

    The Parma Beakers who had steppe ancestry got it from people who crossed the Alps from Switzerland or southern Germany. Do you see people from those countries trying to get proprietary rights on that ancestry.

    Ancient people moved around and a lot of mixing took place to create the people we now know as Etruscans or Latins or Greeks or whatever.

    I let you have your say Johane, because this isn't anthrogenica. However, this isn't going to turn into another Albanian argumentation thread. You made your point, you've been heard.

    The fact that no one wants to engage you on it should tell you all you need to know about whether people agree with your "Albanian twist" on things or not.

    The irony of all this is that Albanians are not very "Illyrian" at all, so why you cling to it so much as the defining element of your ethnicity is beyond me. Holdovers from your Communist dictatorship's propaganda? There are northeastern Italians who are closer to the Illyrians than you are. Heck, even the Spaniards come out as "close" to the Illyrians. Did your ancestors travel all the way to Iberia as well? It's just similar mixtures of steppe and Neolithic, for crying out loud.

    You made your point, such as it is. Enough. There's no need to keep repeating it over and over again. You think saying it twenty times will convince more people than saying it twice?

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    PCA with 2 Etruscans, 3 Latins, 1 Villanovan (Etruscan) and 1 Proto-Villanovan, all available in the G25.


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