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Thread: Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

  1. #201
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Liburnians and histri and iapodes all sit under the term illyrian and so do other tribes in noricum, how else do you get halstatt culture in noricum, a mix of celts and illyrians
    It seems you don't understand what I write. A lot of different tribes have been put under the same umbrella more than a time when they were not exactly the same ethny. When we don't know the languages we are tempted to group people according to archeologic culture; when we know languages, we are tempted to group them otherwise. In some part Golasecca culture was "etruscan", but here we know the language or at least the dominant one. I doubt BB's ere only one ethny, I doubt Urnfields were only one ethny, I even doubt Hallstatt were only Celts and your "Illyrians". Where were the ancestors of Venetics, by instance? Central Europe was a crossroad at those times and someones see links between S-W Poland and N-E Italy between Urnfields and Early IA.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    so, why are Albanians autosomaly closer to Tuscans, east shifted,? could this exchange be the reason?
    They don't. Albanians don't look closer to Tuscans than let's say to many other people.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Wait, wait, an Etruscan is I1?! Are you sure it's not a badly dated Lombard? And I've also read somewhere that Messapian is close to the Albanian language, so at least THIS makes sense!
    That is a very sharp point that you have had.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    PCA with 3 Etruscans (2 Etruscans + 1 Villanovan), 4 Latins and 1 Proto-Villanovan, all those available in the G25. This PCA doesn't include the three mixed outliers.

    Last edited by brick; 11-11-19 at 19:09.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Steppe people moved into Hungary, the Carpathians, the Balkans, Italy etc. They picked up ancestry along the way. Maybe some came directly into Italy from Hungary. Indeed, that's extremely possible. Maybe some came to Italy through the Balkans. That's extremely possible too.

    Who knows where that particular y lineage originated? Maybe it originated in Hungary, maybe in the Carpathians, maybe in the Balkans.
    1. The Etruscan L283 is downstream of the 1000 year older croatian coast sample, meaning they are recently related. This doesn't favour the continental route, but a trans-adriatic one.

    2. Among north-west Albanians, the highest L283 clade diversity and frequency is observed. This favours a trans-adriatic movement into Italy from Illyria, as opposed to from Etruscans into the Illyrian Coast, as there is not one single archaeological record or historical mention of Etruscans being there.

    3. The distribution of J2b and Ev13 together in the Grugni paper, favours a trans-adriatic movement into the Italic peninsula from the Balkans, and correlates precisely with where we know Messapic / Illyric speakers were.


    We are discussing the most probable working hypothesis, not just saying anything is possible therefore lets just move on. Otherwise, why are we even here. They are not equally possible. One is evidently much more probable than the other, and to say otherwise is not supported by the evidence as presented.

    This is not about claiming ownership, this is about having clarity in labeling from which direction, which language group one clade most probably entered Rome. You are arguing the north-south continental route for L283, which I am presenting evidence against. I2a-Slav obviously entered Albanian population as slavic speakers, this is something we can readily admit, why is it such an outrage if I point out that the L283 in rome seems to be a similar situation.

    I was the first to comment when it seemed Z2103 was possibly miscalled, so I am being objective and not trying to manipulate the data in any way or form.

    As for "The irony of all this is that Albanians are not very "Illyrian" at all". What seems to be not Illyrian about us having preserved our language and paternally descending from the same Y-dna groups that seem to have founded Alba Longa?
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It seems you don't understand what I write. A lot of different tribes have been put under the same umbrella more than a time when they were not exactly the same ethny. When we don't know the languages we are tempted to group people according to archeologic culture; when we know languages, we are tempted to group them otherwise. In some part Golasecca culture was "etruscan", but here we know the language or at least the dominant one. I doubt BB's ere only one ethny, I doubt Urnfields were only one ethny, I even doubt Hallstatt were only Celts and your "Illyrians". Where were the ancestors of Venetics, by instance? Central Europe was a crossroad at those times and someones see links between S-W Poland and N-E Italy between Urnfields and Early IA.
    We all know this ...we also know that people moved from area to area and in all cases they left some behind to be absorbed by others who entered these lands

    Btw the venetics are not indigenous to italy like the ligures are.....the venetics are made up of the indigenous Euganei of NE-italy
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    1. The Etruscan L283 is downstream of the 1000 year older croatian coast sample, meaning they are recently related. This doesn't favour the continental route, but a trans-adriatic one.

    2. Among north-west Albanians, the highest L283 clade diversity and frequency is observed. This favours a trans-adriatic movement into Italy from Illyria, as opposed to from Etruscans into the Illyrian Coast, as there is not one single archaeological record or historical mention of Etruscans being there.

    3. The distribution of J2b and Ev13 together in the Grugni paper, favours a trans-adriatic movement into the Italic peninsula from the Balkans, and correlates precisely with where we know Messapic / Illyric speakers were.


    We are discussing the most probable working hypothesis, not just saying anything is possible therefore lets just move on. Otherwise, why are we even here. They are not equally possible. One is evidently much more probable than the other, and to say otherwise is not supported by the evidence as presented.

    This is not about claiming ownership, this is about having clarity in labeling from which direction, which language group one clade most probably entered Rome. You are arguing the north-south continental route for L283, which I am presenting evidence against. I2a-Slav obviously entered Albanian population as slavic speakers, this is something we can readily admit, why is it such an outrage if I point out that the L283 in rome seems to be a similar situation.

    I was the first to comment when it seemed Z2103 was possibly miscalled, so I am being objective and not trying to manipulate the data in any way or form.

    As for "The irony of all this is that Albanians are not very "Illyrian" at all". What seems to be not Illyrian about us having preserved our language and paternally descending from the same Y-dna groups that seem to have founded Alba Longa?

    This paper is not about the history of the Albanians. Can you understand that? It's not hard to understand.

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    This paper is about the history of rome. And there is special pleading false arguments being made about the only Etruscan ydna sample. Lets not mention albanians ever again. Where is that L283 from?

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This paper is about the history of rome. And there is special pleading false arguments being made about the only Etruscan ydna sample. Lets not mention albanians ever again. Where is that L283 from?
    They are right. Stop spamming this thread.

    It might well be that J2b2 was common among Etruscan as much as it was in Illyrians. Maybe they mixed with similar kind of people and they got it from them. Don't forget the Nuragic J2b2, now the Etruscan. I am sure we will get the bigger picture of this Y-DNA.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    They are right. Stop spamming this thread.

    It might well be that J2b2 was common among Etruscan as much as it was in Illyrians. Maybe they mixed with similar kind of people and they got it from them. Don't forget the Nuragic J2b2, now the Etruscan. I am sure we will get the bigger picture of this Y-DNA.
    What about it being downstrwam of the mathieson sample do you not understand? Etruscans were not IE, so if it was "common equally" to both an IE and etruscan group, ot cannot always have been. What type of argumentation is that.

    The nuragic j2b2 is also further evidence of illyrian origin, not continental. Im not spamming this thread. Its the most obvious origin for the and the push to ignore it is wholly recationary and ideological.


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    You're being very rude, Johane Derite.

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    "Roman soldier FN_2 from Monachium dated to ca. 300-500 CE plots in the PCA just like Republican Romans several centuries before him."

    I am interested in seeing how close the G-L42 300 AD Roman soldier sample FN_2 plots to a G-CTS4803 400-600 AD Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi sample R108

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    someone posted it in anthrogenica
    don't know which calculator he used :

    results look logic by shortest distance :)


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      0.03494477 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA_RMPR5
      0.04806604 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR7
      0.36272996 Latvian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR11
      0.35975182 Latvian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR15
      0.36510542 Latvian



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      0.07050388 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR6
      0.04997628 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR8
      0.05830176 Sardinian



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      0.07540242 Sardinian



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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR63
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR64
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR65
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1283
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1285
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1286
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1287
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1288
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1289
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1290
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      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1219
      0.02628569 German



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1220
      0.02422033 French



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1221
      0.02577587 French_Provence



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1224
      0.01410185 French



      Distance to: ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR969
      0.02079134 Italian_Umbria



      Distance to: ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR970
      0.02466607 Italian_Umbria



      Distance to: ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR973
      0.01804293 Italian_Basilica



      Distance to: ITA_Villabruna_Villabruna
      0.30906211 Latvian



      Distance to: ITA_Villanovan_RMPR1015
      0.03305564 Spanish_La_Rioja

      Distance to: Bell_Beaker_ITA_I1979
      0.04198158 French_Corsica












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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    someone posted it in anthrogenica
    don't know which calculator he used

    G25 I think.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    What about it being downstrwam of the mathieson sample do you not understand?
    That only means that it shares a more recent MRCA with someone else under that subclade, not that it is a descendant of the Dalmatian sample.

    The Etruscan J2b-L283 split from the one found in Dalmatia around 2000 BC. This is before any mention of Illyrians or Etruscans so all scenarios of J2b expansion remain possible. As for the relationship to Albanians, all ancient J2b-L283 & R-Z2103 samples with good coverage split from the main Albanian lineages >4000 ybp, so once again, they do not have to share ethnic origins more recently than 2000 BC.

    We cannot draw conclusions on Balkan IA ethnicities right now as we need more Balkan IA samples. But both J-L283 and R-Z2103 being found all around IA Illyria increases the likelihood that the main Albanian lines were present there & then as well.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mals View Post
    That only means that it shares a more recent MRCA with someone else under that subclade, not that it is a descendant of the Dalmatian sample.

    The Etruscan J2b-L283 split from the one found in Dalmatia around 2000 BC. This is before any mention of Illyrians or Etruscans so all scenarios of J2b expansion remain possible. As for the relationship to Albanians, all ancient J2b-L283 & R-Z2103 samples with good coverage split from the main Albanian lineages >4000 ybp, so once again, they do not have to share ethnic origins more recently than 2000 BC.

    We cannot draw conclusions on Balkan IA ethnicities right now as we need more Balkan IA samples. But both J-L283 and R-Z2103 being found all around IA Illyria increases the likelihood that the main Albanian lines were present there & then as well.

    They are both under Y15058 which has a TMRCA of 3900 YBP. The Dalmatian Y15058 sample is from 3620 - 3520 YBP.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/


    Like I commented before, the argument of this was not based only on this amazing result, but this result in conjunction with Grugni, and clade diversity & frequency. A proposed shared split of Y15058 doesn't strike me as convincing given the totally assymtrical representation of L283 diversity of other clades across the adriatic.

    But I will leave this thread now, as it seems we are not ready to discuss certain things yet.

    I'm sure things will get clearer with upcoming papers. Great to see that 215 comments into this thread, the first Etruscan Y dna sample has been given all the attention it requires.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    someone posted it in anthrogenica
    don't know which calculator he used :

    results look logic by shortest distance :)


    1. Distance to: ITA_Etruscan_RMPR473
      0.03254449 Italian_Lombardy



      Distance to: ITA_Etruscan_RMPR474b
      0.02040298 Italian_Veneto



      Distance to: ITA_Etruscan_o_RMPR475b
      0.05527070 Spanish_Canarias



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA_RMPR4
      0.03494477 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA_RMPR5
      0.04806604 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR7
      0.36272996 Latvian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR11
      0.35975182 Latvian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR15
      0.36510542 Latvian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR2
      0.06765043 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR3
      0.07050388 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR6
      0.04997628 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR8
      0.05830176 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR9
      0.07540242 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR10
      0.06489646 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Monte_San_Biagio_CA_RMPR1014
      0.04069294 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_RMPR435b
      0.01651655 French_South



      Distance to: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o_RMPR437b
      0.02659481 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Proto-Villanovan_RMPR1
      0.02247622 Italian_Lombardy



      Distance to: ITA_Remedello_BA_RISE486
      0.04754374 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Remedello_BA_RISE487
      0.04363005 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Remedello_BA_RISE489
      0.03849824 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N_RMPR16
      0.04353057 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N_RMPR17
      0.04814002 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N_RMPR18
      0.05810093 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N_RMPR19
      0.04602643 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR37
      0.03472320 Spanish_Soria



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR38
      0.03236586 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR39
      0.01990150 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR40
      0.02753859 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR41
      0.01886577 Romaniote_Jew



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR42
      0.02329748 Lebanese_Christian



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR43
      0.03473337 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR44
      0.03783763 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR45
      0.03371377 Italian_Jew



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR47
      0.01862262 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR49
      0.01958219 Italian_Basilica



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR50
      0.02653126 Greek_Crete



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR51
      0.03052100 Sicilian_East



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR66
      0.04277771 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR67
      0.02938263 Georgian_Jew



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR68
      0.02375481 Iraqi_Jew



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR69
      0.03778518 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR70
      0.02694747 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR71
      0.03685558 Greek_Central_Anatolia



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR72
      0.03173555 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR73
      0.03195050 Romaniote_Jew



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR75
      0.02542093 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR76
      0.03396961 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR78
      0.04106184 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR80
      0.03542737 Moroccan_Jew



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR81
      0.02347214 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR111
      0.03250955 Italian_Umbria



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR113
      0.03530855 Italian_Apulia



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR114
      0.02672989 Greek_Crete



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR115
      0.02004098 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR116
      0.01809474 French



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR123
      0.02300978 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR125
      0.03049942 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR126
      0.02337482 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR128
      0.03250066 Greek_Central_Anatolia



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR131
      0.02333972 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR132
      0.06779557 Libyan_Jew



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR436
      0.02568965 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR835
      0.02058905 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR836
      0.02718180 Italian_Apulia



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1543
      0.02213186 Sephardic_Jew



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1544
      0.02345995 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1545
      0.03406077 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1547
      0.02958786 Lebanese_Christian



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1548
      0.02598342 Greek_Crete



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1549
      0.03439954 Italian_Abruzzo



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1550
      0.02256962 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1551
      0.03413629 Greek_Trabzon



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR30
      0.02191906 Italian_Calabria



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR31
      0.03159048 Welsh



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR32
      0.02463914 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR33
      0.01759383 Italian_Bergamo



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR34
      0.01876256 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR35
      0.01836963 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR36
      0.02130072 Italian_Marche



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR104
      0.02236527 Sardinian



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR105
      0.02504601 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR106
      0.02623729 Belgian



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR107
      0.02414862 Italian_Apulia



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR108
      0.02438511 French_Provence



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR109
      0.02528145 Spanish_Baleares



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR110
      0.02577841 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR117
      0.02349091 Italian_Calabria



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR118
      0.02794022 Italian_Umbria



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR120
      0.02765728 Italian_Marche



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR121
      0.02694788 Italian_Marche



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR122
      0.01962059 Sicilian_East



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR130
      0.02602672 Cypriot



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR133
      0.02726685 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR134
      0.02090265 Romaniote_Jew



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR136
      0.01626674 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR137
      0.02620622 Greek_Kos



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
      0.03957103 Spanish_La_Rioja



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR52
      0.02843482 Sicilian_East



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR53
      0.02120602 Sicilian_East



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR54
      0.01795049 Italian_Basilica



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR55
      0.01970909 Swiss_Italian



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR56
      0.02164858 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR57
      0.02090354 Italian_Apulia



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR58
      0.01625702 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR59
      0.02971906 Sicilian_East



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR60
      0.02684793 Sicilian_West



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR61
      0.02376975 Italian_Northeast



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR62
      0.02590241 French_East



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR63
      0.02492310 Spanish_Castello



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR64
      0.01779212 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR65
      0.02125249 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1283
      0.02009685 Italian_Lazio



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1285
      0.02911585 Italian_Marche



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1286
      0.02841211 Dutch



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1287
      0.02447268 Italian_Marche



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1288
      0.02459225 German



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1289
      0.02275595 Spanish_Castello



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1290
      0.01967685 Italian_Campania



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1219
      0.02628569 German



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1220
      0.02422033 French



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1221
      0.02577587 French_Provence



      Distance to: ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1224
      0.01410185 French



      Distance to: ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR969
      0.02079134 Italian_Umbria



      Distance to: ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR970
      0.02466607 Italian_Umbria



      Distance to: ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR973
      0.01804293 Italian_Basilica



      Distance to: ITA_Villabruna_Villabruna
      0.30906211 Latvian



      Distance to: ITA_Villanovan_RMPR1015
      0.03305564 Spanish_La_Rioja

      Distance to: Bell_Beaker_ITA_I1979
      0.04198158 French_Corsica





    @Salento

    My speculation was correct, 836, 57,107, and 113 are Apulian-like samples, which are in the SITALY3-circled area. Though I should have shifted it south west a tad, because 107, and 113 are half-in. Nevertheless, almost spot on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    This paper is not about the history of the Albanians. Can you understand that? It's not hard to understand.
    It isn't hard to understand at all. People just seem to be offended by the potential possibility of this Etruscan migrating from Illyrians around the Dalmatian coast. Others turned it into something "Albanian". As an Albanian I take offense to this pointing of fingers. No where in any of his posts was he saying this lineage came from Albania proper or modern Albanians specifically.

    He made a logical point stating the obvious; The L283 Etruscan has a 1000ybp TMRCA with the Dalmatian Proto-Illyrian L283, and so, likely migrated from around Dalmatia.

    If we are to deal with evidence and facts, than the only evidence we have at the moment is that the only L283 that shares the 1000 year distance with the Etruscan sample is the Proto-Illyrian in Dalmatia.

    The whole "Albanians are not even close to Illyrians" nonsense is an argumentative blow that contributes nothing to the point he made, and it certainly does not debunk it.

    Iberians and North Italians are not closer and do not have any real significant "Illyrian" ancestry. This is merely similar admixture. The only clear indicator for the migration of a people and their direct paternal relationship, is their Y-DNA and the clade they belong. Ancestry by proxy is just that. Proxy.

    The idea that Albanians are not descended from one or more Illyrian tribes around Albania, despite clearly carrying all the major haplogroups found in paleo-west-balkans because of genetic drift is nonsense. Iberians/North Italians don't have the Y-DNA of the Illyrian lineages that Albanians do in either proportion of distribution or diversity.

    Denying their connection based on something like changing autosomal DNA and drift is absolutely nonsense and wouldn't take the place of Y-DNA in determining who descended from whom.

    He is also right to bring up I2a-Slav, which no one here denies is connected to Slavs, and reinforces it all the time. Yet, we have more ancient DNA for J2b-L283 and its connection to Illyrians/Albanians than we do I2a-Slav, which literally has post-migration medieval samples being used as determining factor.

    Why the double standard? Does the idea of admitting Illyrian connection to this ONE specific Etruscan sample which clearly is only 1000 years apart from its parent clade in Dalmatia ruffle feathers?

    All it means is this Etruscans earliest paternal ancestor likely split from his Proto-Illyrian ancestor around Dalmatia. Thats the only evidence we have right now. Where is the evidence for all the other scenarios?

    Is that so hard to understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Sample R435 Roman Republic, 600-200 BC, Similitude Map:

    ^^^
    That one was based on 107,000 SNPs.

    I've managed to get some more SNPs now. Differences are minor:

    116,000 SNPs from BAM file:



    117,000 SNPs from VCF file:



    I guess we should stick to this version which has the most SNPs.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    If we are to deal with evidence and facts, than the only evidence we have at the moment is that the only L283 that shares the 1000 year distance with the Etruscan sample is the Proto-Illyrian in Dalmatia.
    You have monopolized any discussion about the Greeks, now you are doing the same with this discussion. You are so imbued with a spirit of nationalism that no one wants to discuss it with you.

    Until proven otherwise, L283 was found in Croatia and, to the best of my knowledge, Croatia is not Albania.

    Of course you forget that L283 was also found among the Nuragic Sardinians.

    It is up to you to try and bring in interesting arguments. Otherwise you will always be just annoying. As you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    You have monopolized any discussion about the Greeks, now you are doing the same with this discussion. You are so imbued with a spirit of nationalism that no one wants to discuss it with you.

    Until proven otherwise, L283 was found in Croatia and, to the best of my knowledge, Croatia is not Albania.

    Of course you forget that L283 was also found among the Nuragic Sardinians.

    It is up to you to try and bring in interesting arguments. Otherwise you will always be just annoying. As you are.
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/

    It is a balkan marker but it is from cetina culture......via hungarian plains

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    Please correct me if I am wrong about any of the samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    PCA with 3 Etruscans (2 Etruscans + 1 Villanovan), 4 Latins and 1 Proto-Villanovan, all those available in the G25. This PCA doesn't include the three mixed outliers.

    Am I getting this right?

    435-Prenestini Tribe plots with the Southern French


    One in Spain, four near it but veering toward Sardinia, so even more Anatolian Neolithic?

    851-Ardea Latini plots in the Spanish cluster. Which region is that?
    1021 Boville Latini
    1016 Rome Latini
    473 Etruscan
    1015 Villanovan


    Etruscan 474-Italy, but which province is it actually in? Lombardia?

    R1 Proto-Villanovan-Italy. It looks like it's near Liguria, but which province is it actually in?

    So, anyone want to tell me again that Etruscans are from Lydia in the first millennium BC?

    Both are, as I said, Southern Europeans.

    Good-bye to so many myths.

    Not Basque like so why model with them?

    Did they model with only the steppe admixed Parma Beakers? Where would they plot here?

    What happened to the other samples, especially 850?

    @Johane,
    Are you being deliberately obtuse? I never said the Etruscans went to the Balkans. You still can't know where this particular sub-lineage "originated". Nor does a route through the Balkans for the steppe people mean there weren't other routes?

    Do you know how childish this sounds? You want a medal because some steppe people took a route through the Balkans to get to Italy?

    You have now said the same thing about five times. We heard you. Keep repeating it, and it is spamming and will be treated as such.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    You have monopolized any discussion about the Greeks, now you are doing the same with this discussion. You are so imbued with a spirit of nationalism that no one wants to discuss it with you.

    Until proven otherwise, L283 was found in Croatia and, to the best of my knowledge, Croatia is not Albania.

    Of course you forget that L283 was also found among the Nuragic Sardinians.

    It is up to you to try and bring in interesting arguments. Otherwise you will always be just annoying. As you are.
    Oh please. Hop off your high horse. Any thread I argue with Greeks is where they clearly attacked with filthy speech against my people. Some wrong things were stated so I made it clear they were related.

    Obviously it’s you who does not know what they’re talking about and need to understand things contextually before going on your rant.

    no one claimed the Nuragic/Sardinian L283 was Illyrian. As far as I know that sample was of a different clade unrelated in a historical time sense to Illyrians or Albanians.

    the Etruscan sample is the only one being referenced here. Which clearly has a 1000 year gap from its parent clade in Dalmatia identified as a Proto Illyrian.

    Real slick with that jab. Croatia must be teaming with J2b-L283(sarcasm).

    keep on with with your delusions and ignoring the obvious fact. All of you LARPing with admixture calculators and ignoring hard science. Y chromosomes don’t lie. Supplemental data revealed the subclade of the L283 Sardinian descends from parent clade found in Proto Illyrian Croatia.

    no one is saying Albanians are directly related to this sample. They are however related and more directly related to southern Illyrians which will be distant cousins of this.

    there’s no arguing the hard fact that their Ydna is related. Paternal. That’s what indo European society was built on. Patriarchy. DNA doesn’t lie.

    This Nuragic sample you toss in is far older. The Etruscan sample and Proto Illyrian sample in Dalmatia are closely related. Distantly so to Albanians.

    Iberians and North Italians can’t claim that legacy. Hell, even me, an Albanian can not claim so either in a paternal sense. Despite being part of later phases
    of proto Albanian culture, my line likely came from central/central East Europe with Slavs most likely.

    i don’t make mental hurdles to cope. Neither should you. Simple fact is they’re related more than anyone. Everyone just likes broad generalizations so they don’t hurt anyone’s feelings.

    however, as full genome Y sequencing advances, there will be no more half truths and lies. It’s already headed there whilst everyone has fun with gedmatch finding all their new ethnicities And which ancient people’s they claim.

    You have morons on the apricity taking Mytrueancestry as gospel truth with Italians and Spaniard prancing around calling themselves Illyrian. It’s become a game.

    Simple fact is that Etruscans grand grand grand pappy and so on came from a Proto Illyrian in Dalmatia. Show me a sample from outside the Balkans that is closer in relation sharing the same branching SNPs and distance. You cannot because right now the closest match in a thousand years is a Proto Illyrian.

    How about you bring evidence countering that simple fact and leave Albanians out of the question, which is, Who is this etruscans closest paternal ancestor? The only evidence shows a 1000 year distance between him and his ancestor in Croatia.

  25. #225
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    Prenestini Tribe Inland 435 is mine, it could be a bit afrancesado.

    Etruscan is also mine R474





    I took out these values. I did it myself, I'm a scientist.

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