Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

Liburnians and histri and iapodes all sit under the term illyrian and so do other tribes in noricum, how else do you get halstatt culture in noricum, a mix of celts and illyrians

It seems you don't understand what I write. A lot of different tribes have been put under the same umbrella more than a time when they were not exactly the same ethny. When we don't know the languages we are tempted to group people according to archeologic culture; when we know languages, we are tempted to group them otherwise. In some part Golasecca culture was "etruscan", but here we know the language or at least the dominant one. I doubt BB's ere only one ethny, I doubt Urnfields were only one ethny, I even doubt Hallstatt were only Celts and your "Illyrians". Where were the ancestors of Venetics, by instance? Central Europe was a crossroad at those times and someones see links between S-W Poland and N-E Italy between Urnfields and Early IA.
 
so, why are Albanians autosomaly closer to Tuscans, east shifted,? could this exchange be the reason?

They don't. Albanians don't look closer to Tuscans than let's say to many other people.

wfDY6Sx.jpg
 
Wait, wait, an Etruscan is I1?! Are you sure it's not a badly dated Lombard? And I've also read somewhere that Messapian is close to the Albanian language, so at least THIS makes sense!

That is a very sharp point that you have had.
 
PCA with 3 Etruscans (2 Etruscans + 1 Villanovan), 4 Latins and 1 Proto-Villanovan, all those available in the G25. This PCA doesn't include the three mixed outliers.

URxuuCf.jpg
 
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Steppe people moved into Hungary, the Carpathians, the Balkans, Italy etc. They picked up ancestry along the way. Maybe some came directly into Italy from Hungary. Indeed, that's extremely possible. Maybe some came to Italy through the Balkans. That's extremely possible too.

Who knows where that particular y lineage originated? Maybe it originated in Hungary, maybe in the Carpathians, maybe in the Balkans.

1. The Etruscan L283 is downstream of the 1000 year older croatian coast sample, meaning they are recently related. This doesn't favour the continental route, but a trans-adriatic one.

2. Among north-west Albanians, the highest L283 clade diversity and frequency is observed. This favours a trans-adriatic movement into Italy from Illyria, as opposed to from Etruscans into the Illyrian Coast, as there is not one single archaeological record or historical mention of Etruscans being there.

3. The distribution of J2b and Ev13 together in the Grugni paper, favours a trans-adriatic movement into the Italic peninsula from the Balkans, and correlates precisely with where we know Messapic / Illyric speakers were.


We are discussing the most probable working hypothesis, not just saying anything is possible therefore lets just move on. Otherwise, why are we even here. They are not equally possible. One is evidently much more probable than the other, and to say otherwise is not supported by the evidence as presented.

This is not about claiming ownership, this is about having clarity in labeling from which direction, which language group one clade most probably entered Rome. You are arguing the north-south continental route for L283, which I am presenting evidence against. I2a-Slav obviously entered Albanian population as slavic speakers, this is something we can readily admit, why is it such an outrage if I point out that the L283 in rome seems to be a similar situation.

I was the first to comment when it seemed Z2103 was possibly miscalled, so I am being objective and not trying to manipulate the data in any way or form.

As for "The irony of all this is that Albanians are not very "Illyrian" at all". What seems to be not Illyrian about us having preserved our language and paternally descending from the same Y-dna groups that seem to have founded Alba Longa?
 
It seems you don't understand what I write. A lot of different tribes have been put under the same umbrella more than a time when they were not exactly the same ethny. When we don't know the languages we are tempted to group people according to archeologic culture; when we know languages, we are tempted to group them otherwise. In some part Golasecca culture was "etruscan", but here we know the language or at least the dominant one. I doubt BB's ere only one ethny, I doubt Urnfields were only one ethny, I even doubt Hallstatt were only Celts and your "Illyrians". Where were the ancestors of Venetics, by instance? Central Europe was a crossroad at those times and someones see links between S-W Poland and N-E Italy between Urnfields and Early IA.

We all know this ...we also know that people moved from area to area and in all cases they left some behind to be absorbed by others who entered these lands

Btw the venetics are not indigenous to italy like the ligures are.....the venetics are made up of the indigenous Euganei of NE-italy
 
1. The Etruscan L283 is downstream of the 1000 year older croatian coast sample, meaning they are recently related. This doesn't favour the continental route, but a trans-adriatic one.

2. Among north-west Albanians, the highest L283 clade diversity and frequency is observed. This favours a trans-adriatic movement into Italy from Illyria, as opposed to from Etruscans into the Illyrian Coast, as there is not one single archaeological record or historical mention of Etruscans being there.

3. The distribution of J2b and Ev13 together in the Grugni paper, favours a trans-adriatic movement into the Italic peninsula from the Balkans, and correlates precisely with where we know Messapic / Illyric speakers were.


We are discussing the most probable working hypothesis, not just saying anything is possible therefore lets just move on. Otherwise, why are we even here. They are not equally possible. One is evidently much more probable than the other, and to say otherwise is not supported by the evidence as presented.

This is not about claiming ownership, this is about having clarity in labeling from which direction, which language group one clade most probably entered Rome. You are arguing the north-south continental route for L283, which I am presenting evidence against. I2a-Slav obviously entered Albanian population as slavic speakers, this is something we can readily admit, why is it such an outrage if I point out that the L283 in rome seems to be a similar situation.

I was the first to comment when it seemed Z2103 was possibly miscalled, so I am being objective and not trying to manipulate the data in any way or form.

As for "The irony of all this is that Albanians are not very "Illyrian" at all". What seems to be not Illyrian about us having preserved our language and paternally descending from the same Y-dna groups that seem to have founded Alba Longa?


This paper is not about the history of the Albanians. Can you understand that? It's not hard to understand.
 
This paper is about the history of rome. And there is special pleading false arguments being made about the only Etruscan ydna sample. Lets not mention albanians ever again. Where is that L283 from?
 
This paper is about the history of rome. And there is special pleading false arguments being made about the only Etruscan ydna sample. Lets not mention albanians ever again. Where is that L283 from?

They are right. Stop spamming this thread.

It might well be that J2b2 was common among Etruscan as much as it was in Illyrians. Maybe they mixed with similar kind of people and they got it from them. Don't forget the Nuragic J2b2, now the Etruscan. I am sure we will get the bigger picture of this Y-DNA.
 
They are right. Stop spamming this thread.

It might well be that J2b2 was common among Etruscan as much as it was in Illyrians. Maybe they mixed with similar kind of people and they got it from them. Don't forget the Nuragic J2b2, now the Etruscan. I am sure we will get the bigger picture of this Y-DNA.

What about it being downstrwam of the mathieson sample do you not understand? Etruscans were not IE, so if it was "common equally" to both an IE and etruscan group, ot cannot always have been. What type of argumentation is that.

The nuragic j2b2 is also further evidence of illyrian origin, not continental. Im not spamming this thread. Its the most obvious origin for the and the push to ignore it is wholly recationary and ideological.

NothingtoSeeHere.jpg
 
"Roman soldier FN_2 from Monachium dated to ca. 300-500 CE plots in the PCA just like Republican Romans several centuries before him."

I am interested in seeing how close the G-L42 300 AD Roman soldier sample FN_2 plots to a G-CTS4803 400-600 AD Late Antiquity Crypta Balbi sample R108
 
someone posted it in anthrogenica
don't know which calculator he used :

results look logic by shortest distance :)


  1. Distance to:ITA_Etruscan_RMPR473
    0.03254449Italian_Lombardy



    Distance to:ITA_Etruscan_RMPR474b
    0.02040298Italian_Veneto



    Distance to:ITA_Etruscan_o_RMPR475b
    0.05527070Spanish_Canarias



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA_RMPR4
    0.03494477Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA_RMPR5
    0.04806604Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR7
    0.36272996Latvian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR11
    0.35975182Latvian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR15
    0.36510542Latvian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR2
    0.06765043Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR3
    0.07050388Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR6
    0.04997628Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR8
    0.05830176Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR9
    0.07540242Sardinian



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    0.06489646Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Monte_San_Biagio_CA_RMPR1014
    0.04069294Sardinian



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    0.02659481Italian_Campania



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    0.04754374Sardinian



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    0.05810093Sardinian



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    0.03472320Spanish_Soria



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    0.03236586Cypriot



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    0.01990150Greek_Kos



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    0.01862262Italian_Campania



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    0.01958219Italian_Basilica



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    0.04277771Cypriot



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    0.02347214Greek_Kos



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    0.03250955Italian_Umbria



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    0.02672989Greek_Crete



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    0.02300978Greek_Kos



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    0.02058905Italian_Campania



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    0.02718180Italian_Apulia



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1543
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    0.03406077Cypriot



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1547
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    0.02598342Greek_Crete



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    0.03413629Greek_Trabzon



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    0.03159048Welsh



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    0.02463914Italian_Campania



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR33
    0.01759383Italian_Bergamo



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    0.01876256Greek_Kos



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    0.01836963Italian_Campania



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR36
    0.02130072Italian_Marche



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR104
    0.02236527Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR105
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR108
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    0.02528145Spanish_Baleares



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR110
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR117
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR118
    0.02794022Italian_Umbria



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR120
    0.02765728Italian_Marche



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR121
    0.02694788Italian_Marche



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR122
    0.01962059Sicilian_East



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR130
    0.02602672Cypriot



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR133
    0.02726685Greek_Kos



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR134
    0.02090265Romaniote_Jew



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR136
    0.01626674Italian_Campania



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR137
    0.02620622Greek_Kos



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
    0.03957103Spanish_La_Rioja



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR52
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    0.01970909Swiss_Italian



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    0.02164858Italian_Campania



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR57
    0.02090354Italian_Apulia



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR58
    0.01625702Italian_Campania



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR59
    0.02971906Sicilian_East



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    0.02684793Sicilian_West



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    0.02376975Italian_Northeast



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    0.02590241French_East



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    0.02492310Spanish_Castello



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    0.02911585Italian_Marche



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    0.02841211Dutch



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    0.02447268Italian_Marche



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1288
    0.02459225German



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1289
    0.02275595Spanish_Castello



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1290
    0.01967685Italian_Campania



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1219
    0.02628569German



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    0.02422033French



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    0.02577587French_Provence



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1224
    0.01410185French



    Distance to:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR969
    0.02079134Italian_Umbria



    Distance to:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR970
    0.02466607Italian_Umbria



    Distance to:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR973
    0.01804293Italian_Basilica



    Distance to:ITA_Villabruna_Villabruna
    0.30906211Latvian



    Distance to:ITA_Villanovan_RMPR1015
    0.03305564Spanish_La_Rioja

    Distance to:Bell_Beaker_ITA_I1979
    0.04198158French_Corsica













 
What about it being downstrwam of the mathieson sample do you not understand?

That only means that it shares a more recent MRCA with someone else under that subclade, not that it is a descendant of the Dalmatian sample.

The Etruscan J2b-L283 split from the one found in Dalmatia around 2000 BC. This is before any mention of Illyrians or Etruscans so all scenarios of J2b expansion remain possible. As for the relationship to Albanians, all ancient J2b-L283 & R-Z2103 samples with good coverage split from the main Albanian lineages >4000 ybp, so once again, they do not have to share ethnic origins more recently than 2000 BC.

We cannot draw conclusions on Balkan IA ethnicities right now as we need more Balkan IA samples. But both J-L283 and R-Z2103 being found all around IA Illyria increases the likelihood that the main Albanian lines were present there & then as well.
 
That only means that it shares a more recent MRCA with someone else under that subclade, not that it is a descendant of the Dalmatian sample.

The Etruscan J2b-L283 split from the one found in Dalmatia around 2000 BC. This is before any mention of Illyrians or Etruscans so all scenarios of J2b expansion remain possible. As for the relationship to Albanians, all ancient J2b-L283 & R-Z2103 samples with good coverage split from the main Albanian lineages >4000 ybp, so once again, they do not have to share ethnic origins more recently than 2000 BC.

We cannot draw conclusions on Balkan IA ethnicities right now as we need more Balkan IA samples. But both J-L283 and R-Z2103 being found all around IA Illyria increases the likelihood that the main Albanian lines were present there & then as well.


They are both under Y15058 which has a TMRCA of 3900 YBP. The Dalmatian Y15058 sample is from 3620 - 3520 YBP.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/


Like I commented before, the argument of this was not based only on this amazing result, but this result in conjunction with Grugni, and clade diversity & frequency. A proposed shared split of Y15058 doesn't strike me as convincing given the totally assymtrical representation of L283 diversity of other clades across the adriatic.

But I will leave this thread now, as it seems we are not ready to discuss certain things yet.

I'm sure things will get clearer with upcoming papers. Great to see that 215 comments into this thread, the first Etruscan Y dna sample has been given all the attention it requires.
 
someone posted it in anthrogenica
don't know which calculator he used :

results look logic by shortest distance :)


  1. Distance to:ITA_Etruscan_RMPR473
    0.03254449Italian_Lombardy



    Distance to:ITA_Etruscan_RMPR474b
    0.02040298Italian_Veneto



    Distance to:ITA_Etruscan_o_RMPR475b
    0.05527070Spanish_Canarias



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA_RMPR4
    0.03494477Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA_RMPR5
    0.04806604Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR7
    0.36272996Latvian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR11
    0.35975182Latvian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso_RMPR15
    0.36510542Latvian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR2
    0.06765043Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR3
    0.07050388Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR6
    0.04997628Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR8
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    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR9
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    Distance to:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_RMPR10
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    Distance to:ITA_Monte_San_Biagio_CA_RMPR1014
    0.04069294Sardinian



    Distance to:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_RMPR435b
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    Distance to:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o_RMPR437b
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    Distance to:ITA_Proto-Villanovan_RMPR1
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    Distance to:ITA_Remedello_BA_RISE486
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    Distance to:ITA_Remedello_BA_RISE487
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    Distance to:ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N_RMPR19
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR37
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR38
    0.03236586Cypriot



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR39
    0.01990150Greek_Kos



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR40
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR49
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR50
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR51
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR66
    0.04277771Cypriot



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR67
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR68
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    0.03778518Greek_Kos



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR70
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR71
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR72
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR73
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR75
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR76
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR78
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR80
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR81
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR111
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR113
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR114
    0.02672989Greek_Crete



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR115
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR116
    0.01809474French



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR123
    0.02300978Greek_Kos



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR125
    0.03049942Greek_Kos



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR126
    0.02337482Cypriot



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR128
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR131
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR132
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR436
    0.02568965Greek_Kos



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR835
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR836
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1543
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1544
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1545
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1547
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1550
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1551
    0.03413629Greek_Trabzon



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR30
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR31
    0.03159048Welsh



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR32
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR33
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR34
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR35
    0.01836963Italian_Campania



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR36
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR104
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR105
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR106
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR107
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR109
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR110
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR117
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR118
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR120
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR121
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR122
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR130
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR136
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity_RMPR137
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA_RMPR1016
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR52
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR53
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR54
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR55
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR56
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR57
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR59
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR60
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR61
    0.02376975Italian_Northeast



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR62
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR63
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR64
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR65
    0.02125249Italian_Campania



    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1283
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1285
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1286
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1287
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1288
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_MA_RMPR1289
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1219
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1220
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    Distance to:ITA_Rome_Renaissance_RMPR1224
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    Distance to:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR969
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    Distance to:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR970
    0.02466607Italian_Umbria



    Distance to:ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance_RMPR973
    0.01804293Italian_Basilica



    Distance to:ITA_Villabruna_Villabruna
    0.30906211Latvian



    Distance to:ITA_Villanovan_RMPR1015
    0.03305564Spanish_La_Rioja

    Distance to:Bell_Beaker_ITA_I1979
    0.04198158French_Corsica






PaLWI64.png


@Salento

My speculation was correct, 836, 57,107, and 113 are Apulian-like samples, which are in the SITALY3-circled area. Though I should have shifted it south west a tad, because 107, and 113 are half-in. Nevertheless, almost spot on.
p1osPeB.png
 
This paper is not about the history of the Albanians. Can you understand that? It's not hard to understand.

It isn't hard to understand at all. People just seem to be offended by the potential possibility of this Etruscan migrating from Illyrians around the Dalmatian coast. Others turned it into something "Albanian". As an Albanian I take offense to this pointing of fingers. No where in any of his posts was he saying this lineage came from Albania proper or modern Albanians specifically.

He made a logical point stating the obvious; The L283 Etruscan has a 1000ybp TMRCA with the Dalmatian Proto-Illyrian L283, and so, likely migrated from around Dalmatia.

If we are to deal with evidence and facts, than the only evidence we have at the moment is that the only L283 that shares the 1000 year distance with the Etruscan sample is the Proto-Illyrian in Dalmatia.

The whole "Albanians are not even close to Illyrians" nonsense is an argumentative blow that contributes nothing to the point he made, and it certainly does not debunk it.

Iberians and North Italians are not closer and do not have any real significant "Illyrian" ancestry. This is merely similar admixture. The only clear indicator for the migration of a people and their direct paternal relationship, is their Y-DNA and the clade they belong. Ancestry by proxy is just that. Proxy.

The idea that Albanians are not descended from one or more Illyrian tribes around Albania, despite clearly carrying all the major haplogroups found in paleo-west-balkans because of genetic drift is nonsense. Iberians/North Italians don't have the Y-DNA of the Illyrian lineages that Albanians do in either proportion of distribution or diversity.

Denying their connection based on something like changing autosomal DNA and drift is absolutely nonsense and wouldn't take the place of Y-DNA in determining who descended from whom.

He is also right to bring up I2a-Slav, which no one here denies is connected to Slavs, and reinforces it all the time. Yet, we have more ancient DNA for J2b-L283 and its connection to Illyrians/Albanians than we do I2a-Slav, which literally has post-migration medieval samples being used as determining factor.

Why the double standard? Does the idea of admitting Illyrian connection to this ONE specific Etruscan sample which clearly is only 1000 years apart from its parent clade in Dalmatia ruffle feathers?

All it means is this Etruscans earliest paternal ancestor likely split from his Proto-Illyrian ancestor around Dalmatia. Thats the only evidence we have right now. Where is the evidence for all the other scenarios?

Is that so hard to understand?
 
Sample R435 Roman Republic, 600-200 BC, Similitude Map:

ERHPOCz.png

^^^
That one was based on 107,000 SNPs.

I've managed to get some more SNPs now. Differences are minor:

116,000 SNPs from BAM file:

X1bVnrA.png


117,000 SNPs from VCF file:

qVGngNF.png


I guess we should stick to this version which has the most SNPs.
 
If we are to deal with evidence and facts, than the only evidence we have at the moment is that the only L283 that shares the 1000 year distance with the Etruscan sample is the Proto-Illyrian in Dalmatia.

You have monopolized any discussion about the Greeks, now you are doing the same with this discussion. You are so imbued with a spirit of nationalism that no one wants to discuss it with you.

Until proven otherwise, L283 was found in Croatia and, to the best of my knowledge, Croatia is not Albania.

Of course you forget that L283 was also found among the Nuragic Sardinians.

It is up to you to try and bring in interesting arguments. Otherwise you will always be just annoying. As you are.
 

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