Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

Analyzing the evolution of DNA of a metropolitan city will surely show more turbulent results than that of the whole peninsula. The genetic mainframe of a people as a whole remains more intact due to numerical superiority and genetic drift. I am sure you will find similar results in cities such as Constantinople and Alexandria.
 
It reminded me of the case of the SSA in Andalusia in the Iberia papers. With samples from the Hospital of Huelva and how they had been resized for all of Andalusia and also at a time that was impossible due to socio-political, cultural, religious, e.t.c. In a historical moment in Andalusia and Spain, do not forget that slavery in Spain was abolished on February 13, 1880, so that the attempt to fit the results sought in a historical situation in a region probably showed nothing more than a great ignorance of the country and the region. For someone who is on the ground, native was definitely going to strain something like this:


Phone call:
Is your husband?
No, no it is not.
What time will he be at home?
No, he won't come home
How it won't come?
No, he's a slave, he works 24 hours, he won't come home
Ok excuse me


A Christian, closed Catholic society, I imagine that still with the stress of Jewish and blackberry expulsions and with socio-religious complexes even perhaps more than racial ones.


Too little shame is what you have to have to pretend to fit something like that. And I say it because I hate the lie, not for another reason.
 
Indeed, you do have it right.

So, what's the big deal you might say, to put it another way?

Why does it matter if some parts of Europe have more of some WHG/EHG ancestry than others?

It isn't a big deal. It's only a big deal to people with warped minds full of unscientific and illogical nonsense. Don't ask me to explain it. I don't understand minds like that. I don't know how some people can look at data and just refuse to see it's relevance because it interferes with some racist rigamarole dreamed up by "writers" of the past to explain why they're superior to all other people on earth because they're fairer.

Worse still, what kind of person would distort data to prove some unscientific point? I don't know what kind of mind can come up with something as stupid and even evil as that. Yet, we see it all around us. Paper after paper being retracted, especially in the social sciences, where "scientists" distorted the data to prove some theory dear to their hearts.

It's really disillusioning.

It's all a load of bunk to make people who have "no life' feel secure in their dismal state. Genetically the component makeup of Europeans varies (as you note) between minute proportions of WHG, CHG, EHG, ENF, which if you think about it is really pretty incidental. Are we going to argue which component is more "valuable" to European culture/civilization or openly acknowledge differences as significant to the creation of the Euro ethos. I wonder if this whole northern=fairer notion may also be debunked since there is evidence that Anatolian farmers (7000 bce) may have introduced the "light" skinned allele into Europe.
 
Pockets of mid-strength Italian Genes far from Italy, some maybe Roman Related, I think.

AdVxoiP.jpg


6cbWHne.png


EDIT:

Off Topic

It’s all a matter of interpretation,
the AncestryDNA map shows, that in the last 23andme update, they could have allocated to Cyprus and others: Italy, if they wanted to, and not the other way around.

Back to Topic.
 
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Very cool, once again showing mostly genetic continuity in a region. Aside from the neolithic and steppe events, most places in Europe were genetically stable.

I saw some comments about Lombards being only U106 - I would like to point out that CL63 from Collegno and R110 from Crypta Balbi were both Lombards with I1-Z63. These Z63 had a common ancestor almost 2000 years before their time, so they were not closely related on the paternal line.

There was also non-U106 in the Lombards in Szolad. Granted, the ruling family in Collegno was U106.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app
 
Very cool, once again showing mostly genetic continuity in a region. Aside from the neolithic and steppe events, most places in Europe were genetically stable.

I saw some comments about Lombards being only U106 - I would like to point out that CL63 from Collegno and R110 from Crypta Balbi were both Lombards with I1-Z63. These Z63 had a common ancestor almost 2000 years before their time, so they were not closely related on the paternal line.

There was also non-U106 in the Lombards in Szolad. Granted, the ruling family in Collegno was U106.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app

If you check my posts, I1, you'll see I usually mention the relative lack of U-106 "and" I1. :)

I've always held out the possibility that some of the invading tribes might have carried some U-152, which would change things a bit, but so far it hasn't shown up in them.
 
Pockets of mid-strength Italian Genes far from Italy, some maybe Roman Related, I think.

AdVxoiP.jpg


6cbWHne.png


EDIT:

Off Topic

It’s all a matter of interpretation,
the AncestryDNA map shows, that in the last 23andme update, they could have allocated to Cyprus and others: Italy, if they wanted to, and not the other way around.

Back to Topic.

Probably more related to the same CHG/Iran_N+Anatolian migration(s) that have been trickling into mainland Italy since the Neolithic.

Also:

[FONT=&quot]The medieval history of several populations often suffers from scarcity of contemporary records resulting in contradictory and sometimes biased interpretations by historians. This is the situation with the population of the island of Crete, which remained relatively undisturbed until the Middle Ages when multiple wars, invasions, and occupations by foreigners took place. Historians have considered the effects of the occupation of Crete by the Arabs (in the 9th and 10th centuries C.E.) and the Venetians (in the 13th to the 17th centuries C.E.) to the local population. To obtain insights on such effects from a genetic perspective, we studied representative samples from 17 Cretan districts using the Illumina 1 million or 2.5 million arrays and compared the Cretans to the populations of origin of the medieval conquerors and settlers. Highlights of our findings include (1) small genetic contributions from the Arab occupation to the extant Cretan population, (2) low genetic contribution of the Venetians to the extant Cretan population, and (3) evidence of a genetic relationship among the Cretans and Central, Northern, and Eastern Europeans, which could be explained by the settlement in the island of northern origin tribes during the medieval period. Our results show how the interaction between genetics and the historical record can help shed light on the historical record.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 
Probably more related to the same CHG/Iran_N+Anatolian migration(s) that have been trickling into mainland Italy since the Neolithic.

Also:

The medieval history of several populations often suffers from scarcity of contemporary records resulting in contradictory and sometimes biased interpretations by historians. This is the situation with the population of the island of Crete, which remained relatively undisturbed until the Middle Ages when multiple wars, invasions, and occupations by foreigners took place. Historians have considered the effects of the occupation of Crete by the Arabs (in the 9th and 10th centuries C.E.) and the Venetians (in the 13th to the 17th centuries C.E.) to the local population. To obtain insights on such effects from a genetic perspective, we studied representative samples from 17 Cretan districts using the Illumina 1 million or 2.5 million arrays and compared the Cretans to the populations of origin of the medieval conquerors and settlers. Highlights of our findings include (1) small genetic contributions from the Arab occupation to the extant Cretan population, (2) low genetic contribution of the Venetians to the extant Cretan population, and (3) evidence of a genetic relationship among the Cretans and Central, Northern, and Eastern Europeans, which could be explained by the settlement in the island of northern origin tribes during the medieval period. Our results show how the interaction between genetics and the historical record can help shed light on the historical record.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ahg.12328

.
Thanks.

There used to be a lot of talk on these forums as to how every invasion or military occupation or change of elites must have had a huge impact on the local gene pool.

It ain't always so.
 
I think that the Basque language would come from WHG and the Etruscan language from NorthEastEuropeHG.

Map-of-the-Bell-Beaker-Phenomenon-and-neighbouring-influenced-territories-Background-map.png


I found this map. A rough way is a little what I want to say about the HG origin of the Basque and the Etruscan, I had no idea that the thing was like that, but look where it is good to stage my hypothesis. The Basques in a matter of language would have been the redoubt of the orange color on the map and the Etruscans the redoubt of the green color, as an idiomatic trunk because there would have been a multitude of derived dialects.

Could you explain us what this map signifies? Colours and stars? And where you found it? To me it's a bit confuse.
 
Could you explain us what this map signifies? Colours and stars? And where you found it? To me it's a bit confuse.

Just the link that Pax Augusta has put. I do not know if it is accurate or not, but it very well exemplified my hypothesis about the origin of the Basque and Etruscan language. The stars I thought were decorative, I did not take too much notice, neighboring territories influenced, it may be.
 
Wonders never cease. :)

Sam has the guts and the integrity to point out to Polako that his models are incorrect and that the sample from the Latin Prenestini tribe does NOT in fact show Levant ancestry, and that's using Polako's own G25, which is suspect in and of itself. I highly doubt the Ardea 850 sample does either, not that it would matter to me.

This should be a wake up call for everyone; you can get these "models" to show whatever you want or "think" they should show. The authors of this paper did the same thing, although hopefully not out of malice.

He just won't let it go. Does his hatred of Jews and the Levant in general extend this far? He's like those white American southerners who used to see hidden "Negroid" ancestry in every other person they met. I guess it just sticks in his craw that Italians, people unlike him, have given so much to the world. The fact that I'm the only one who seemingly has the guts to call him out doesn't help, I'm sure, but his tirades against not only Southern Italians but Southern Europeans in general go back for years.

Then there's his clique of Eastern Europeans. Maybe his old buddies from Stormfront. Did you know that the Latins were Corded Ware people from Poland? Yup, that's why they were so great. :) Then those dastardly people from Asia Minor and the Levant arrived and mucked everything up.

Of course, the Latins were a bunch of shepherds in huts on those seven hills, and the Etruscans weren't much better until they started to come in contact with those Greeks and Anatolians and began to get civilized. I guess the idea should have been steal their culture, the fruits of their genius, but don't for God's sake marry them?

Does anyone else see the logical disconnect there? If they created these wonders, it must be in part the product of their genes. So why wouldn't you want them?

The same thing happened with the Jews in Germany and Eastern Europe. Is there anyone who doesn't acknowledge that Ashkenazi Jews are, on average, very intelligent and talented? So how did they wind up being untermenschen, and their hosts the ubermensch? Where did all of that come from? Fear they couldn't compete? Or was it atavistic, lizard brain hatred of anyone "different" as well. Re-read some of their old myths. They're highly enlightening.

Why, also, do analogies have to be drawn to current problems with immigration in Europe, or the U.S. for that matter? My issue with mass immigration in our own time is that it is predominantly people with no education, skills or training who will burden industrialized and post industrialized societies already dealing with their own problems of inequality. You can't take in the whole world of needy people. Our own societies would collapse.

How could that possibly compare with what was happening in Europe during the classical age? These people brought trade, commerce, and learning. Their arrival made the achievements of Rome possible, a Rome which formed western and southern Europe.

There is no comparison.

All Empires eventually fade and die, and there were intrinsic problems within the Roman Empire. However, it wasn't immigration from the East which brought it to the breaking point; it was the constant strain of barbarians at its border fleeing from climate change, hunger, and the Huns. The Eastern Empire also faded eventually, but it didn't collapse; order, trade, learning, didn't disappear there, millions didn't die.

I just cannot believe the ignorance of ancient history which is so often on display, or, in some cases, the distortion of it.
 
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There is nothing wrong about having levant genes.....
if davidski or other white nationalist think it is bad it there problem not mine and yours....
by the way
the ancient iberian paper
noticed a levant bronze age ancestery 6-7%
in 200-400 Ad in south east iberia ....
it is very cool .....
 
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The point is that when some try to imitate those who have intervened in the destiny of humanity everything has ended up being much more sordid and sad. They have to learn from the greats and admire them, imitating them is impossible because that is why it has to be born. Ah! and Europe is not a monopoly of any nationality, race or whatever you want to call exclusivity, Europe is of all the countries that compose it and all its stories and inclusions are Europe, that no Elf is forgotten.
 
Sickeliot (what an apt name) is no better. All that Levantist posturing is fake; he was known as a notorious anti-Semite at his university.

No modeling by Polako and his clique or Sikeliot and his socks is worthy of the slightest consideration.


Bravo, Carlos.
 
Just the link that Pax Augusta has put. I do not know if it is accurate or not, but it very well exemplified my hypothesis about the origin of the Basque and Etruscan language. The stars I thought were decorative, I did not take too much notice, neighboring territories influenced, it may be.

OK, thanks to you and Pax Augusta. But your proper hypothesis about Etruscan and Basque languages doesn't convince me at all. We need more solid basis. And BB phenomenon is not entirely ethnic, we cannot be sure it did not include diverse pops sources.
 
There is incredibly high percentage of J (J1+J2) haplogroups in Imperial Romans, 13 out of 24 samples belong to haplogroups J1 or J2. However haplogroup J1 distribution percentage seems to fade in later periods.

Interestingly there is not a single I2a-L621, which is today one of main Balkan Y lineages. Strongly associated with a Early Medieval Slavic migrations towards Balkans.
Also haplogroup R1a (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1019/) is represented only in one Imperial Roman sample in subclade that seems to be none-existent in modern Balkans but rather found in Caucasus/Anatolia.
There is also absence in haplogroups N and Q, which are at least in most cases, also connect with Early Medieval migrations towards Balkans.

There is lower percentage of haplogroup E-v13 then expected, only one Imperial Roman and one Renaissance sample is probably not what many people where expecting (me included).

Haplogroups G2a and R1b were found in expected percentage. There was even found Neolithic R1b, but in subclade typical for Sub-Saharan Africa and Middle East, but also in Yfull as can be seen found in Sardinia so probably it belong to this Sardinian branch.
 
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There is incredibly high percentage of J (J1+J2) haplogroups in Imperial Romans, 13 out of 24 samples belong to haplogroups J1 or J2. However haplogroup J1 distribution percentage seems to fade in later periods.

Interestingly there is not a single I2a-L621, which is today one of main Balkan Y lineages. Strongly associated with a Early Medieval Slavic migrations towards Balkans.
Also haplogroup R1a (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1019/) is represented only in one Imperial Roman sample in subclade that seems to be none-existent in modern Balkans but rather found in Caucasus/Anatolia.
There is also absence in haplogroups N and Q, which are at least in most cases, also connect with Early Medieval migrations towards Balkans.

There is lower percentage of haplogroup E-v13 then expected, only one Imperial Roman and one Renaissance sample is probably not what many people where expecting (me included).

Haplogroups G2a and R1b were found in expected percentage. There was even found Neolithic R1b, but in subclade typical for Sub-Saharan Africa and Middle East, but also in Yfull as can be seen found in Sardinia so probably it belong to this Sardinian branch.

The current speculation is that R1b V88 went from either Sardinia/Sicily or Spain to North Africa and then into the heart of Africa.

Fwiw, I've already speculated as to why J1 lineages disappeared.

As to the J2, we really need to track each one of them back, because some J2 was in Neolithic Anatolia, and some was in Europe very early indeed, while others might have come late.

One size doesn't fit all with J2.
 
Also was suprising at least to me
was the( 2 E-v12 samples) and not to found
The more middle eastern E types E-v22 and E-m123 in remains.
but thats what is so cool in ancient dna 😉
 
As to the J2, we really need to track each one of them back, because some J2 was in Neolithic Anatolia, and some was in Europe very early indeed, while others might have come late.

One size doesn't fit all with J2.


Majority J2a-M410 in various subclades, and some J2b-L283 and some J2b-M205.

However, nevertheless, according to this study Imperial Romans had over 50 % of J haplogroups. Of course various subclades and various origins but still..



J2a300-700 CEPF5008>L581*Late Antiquity
J2a400-600 CEL26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>Y5014>M319Late Antiquity
J2a5345-5221 BCEJ-S11842* Y15913- Z6271-M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842*Neolithic
J2a1a100-300 CER68 J-Y13534* Y23159- Y14696-L25>F3133>Z7706>Y13534Imperial Rome
J2a1a55-211 CER-Z30677M67>Z1847>Z7671>CTS900>Z7661>Y3020>Y11200>Z30677Imperial Rome
J2a1a27 BCE-300 CEJ-Z6264* Z28602-M67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394>Z6264*Imperial Rome
J2a1a1600-1700 CEM67>Z1847>Z500>Y6240>PF7394Renaissance
J2a1a0-200 CEJ-PH672 Y150774-M67>Z1847>Z500>M92>Z508>Z504>PF7412>Z515>PH672*Imperial Rome
J2a1a1-400 CEJ-Z6271L26>PF5087>PF5116>PF5119>L558>M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>S11842>Z6271Imperial Rome
J2a1a0-200 CEJ-Y47649L26>PF5087>PF5160>PF5197>PF5172>Y154816>Y47649*Imperial Rome
J2a1a300-500 CEJ-Z40772 FGC58752-L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>CTS3601>PF5456>Y24651>Z40772*Late Antiquity
J2a1a1480-1490 CEL25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435>Z2148>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147Renaissance
J2a1a1600-1700 CEJ-Z435L26>PF5087>PF5160>L24>Y22662>L25>Z438>Z387>L70>Z435*Renaissance
J2b1771-947 CEJ-PF7321 Y45447- YP51- FT45018- Y134194- Y22037-M205>PF7321*Medieval
J2b1135-244 CEJ-Y134194M205>PF7321>Y134194Imperial Rome
J2b2a700-600 BCEJ-CTS6190M241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240>CTS6190Etruscan_IA
J2b2a0-200 CEM241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z8421>Z631Imperial Rome
J2b2a1280-1430 CEM241>L283>Z600>Z585>Z615>Z597>Z2507>Z638>Z1297>Y27522>Y23094*Medieval
 

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