Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

Cretan Greeks vs 647 ancient samples; top 100:

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Indeed, there's the proof that most of them were Crete like. The samples from the Greek Empuries samples in Spain also come out rather Crete like.

I'm starting to think maybe the Greeks of the Classical Era were pretty much island Greek like, although of course we need ancient samples from the mainland in that period to really know for sure.

I hope that the Reich Lab has some samples. It would be great if they included them for comparison to the Iron Age Southern Italians in their upcoming paper.
 
A piece of Imperial R114 - R50 - R51, the Latin R437, ... all share a position in my 20th chromosome.
Maybe there’s continuity to these days.

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...
 
Indeed, there's the proof that most of them were Crete like. The samples from the Greek Empuries samples in Spain also come out rather Crete like.

I'm starting to think maybe the Greeks of the Classical Era were pretty much island Greek like, although of course we need ancient samples from the mainland in that period to really know for sure.

I hope that the Reich Lab has some samples. It would be great if they included them for comparison to the Iron Age Southern Italians in their upcoming paper.

Yep, it is unlikely that the Steppe admixture influx has stopped during the Bronze Age. I guess that the Classical Greeks had more Steppe than Mycenaeans, but less than the modern Greeks. But the Mycenaeans surprised us, so maybe perhaps also the Classical Greeks in some way.
 
In another position in the 20º chromosomes the Latin R850 and R437 (again), Roman Imperial R436, Villas and Palaces owners :) ,...

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R1 also has a chromosomal affinity with R114:

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@Torzio post #823 shows the R1 Kit results, not mine.

Posts #820 and #822 are my results.
 
Salento: Just as you and Torzio did, I looked at my Chroma results from MyTrueAncestry and I am getting very, very, similar results. There is an option you can use that gives the closest modern populations to the ancient Samples used in the Antonio/Moots et al (2019) study. I, like, you came to the same conclusion, genetic continuity from Iron Age down to today. Some Romans cluster closer to Central/North Central Italy, Some Cluster South/South Central Italy.

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For example, the first red color on Chromosome 1 is 591 SNPS related to Thracian I5769, R58, R1545, R59 and R131 and Central Roman CL36 Second Red color bar is 442 SNPs shares wiht R44, R49 and R969, R970, R52 and R41, respectively. The orange bar on Chromosome 1 is 128 SNPS with Ancient Greek I9005. With My True Ancestry, all of my chromosome Sharing for periods BC are Ancient Thracian and Ancient Greeks. For Chromosome 8, 105 SNPs with I0073, Chromosome 10, 115 SNPs with I9005 (first light orange segment) and 101 with I0070, Chromosome 13, 110 SNPs with Mycenaean I9006 and Chromosome 21, 102 with I0074.

I have Caesar Level (can analyze up to 60 ancient samples) but this chroma tool very nice, I may have to upgrade to get more ancient samples analyzed.
 
Salento: Just as you and Torzio did, I looked at my Chroma results from MyTrueAncestry and I am getting very, very, similar results. There is an option you can use that gives the closest modern populations to the ancient Samples used in the Antonio/Moots et al (2019) study. I, like, you came to the same conclusion, genetic continuity from Iron Age down to today. Some Romans cluster closer to Central/North Central Italy, Some Cluster South/South Central Italy.

View attachment 11837

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For example, the first red color on Chromosome 1 is 591 SNPS related to Thracian I5769, R58, R1545, R59 and R131 and Central Roman CL36 Second Red color bar is 442 SNPs shares wiht R44, R49 and R969, R970, R52 and R41, respectively. The orange bar on Chromosome 1 is 128 SNPS with Ancient Greek I9005. With My True Ancestry, all of my chromosome Sharing for periods BC are Ancient Thracian and Ancient Greeks. For Chromosome 8, 105 SNPs with I0073, Chromosome 10, 115 SNPs with I9005 (first light orange segment) and 101 with I0070, Chromosome 13, 110 SNPs with Mycenaean I9006 and Chromosome 21, 102 with I0074.

I have Caesar Level (can analyze up to 60 ancient samples) but this chroma tool very nice, I may have to upgrade to get more ancient samples analyzed.

... more of mine:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38222-Mytrueancestry-com?p=597660&viewfull=1#post597660
 
Salento: That Chromosome of yours with 2127 shared SNPs has a great historical continuity through time. A place where Ancient Greece and Rome meet!!!
 
Salento: That Chromosome of yours with 2127 shared SNPs has a great historical continuity through time. A place where Ancient Greece and Rome meet!!!

imho, It’s also possible that most of it, is a much older common shared ancestry,

... ‘cause they share the same segment.
 
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Very close to a lot of Roman samples.

Here are the Imperial Roman samples that are similar to Greek Cretans, under a genetic distance of 5.0:

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R850 is one of them, so similar kind of people have been there since the Iron Age.

They could be natives since that time, perhaps, rather than immigrants.

What is clear however, is that people "south" of them disappear by the middle ages.
 
I was wrong about all the Imperial Roman samples coming from Isola Sacra near Ostia, although a good number do. They're actually from some necropoli around the city of Rome itself as well. So, not like future archaeologists excavating just in Flushing. It's like archaeologists excavating in New York City as a whole, or London.

However, the burial contexts tell us nothing. There's no grave goods, no inscriptions, not even names from what I can see, and there's been disturbances at a lot of the sites.

Interestingly enough, some of the samples come from the Catacombs of Peter and Paul. I have to check tomorrow and see if those are more "East Med", i.e. the samples south and east of modern Southern Italians. It would make sense. The first Christians, and the only Christians for a long time were Jews.

In that regard, look what happens to the J1 in ancient Italy after the Imperial Era.

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Razib Khan continues to get it:
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019...e-more/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

"A combination of the wars of the 6th-century, which are recorded to have depopulated much of Italy, and the overall decentering of Rome from the Mediterranean system after the ending of the Western Empire, probably resulted in the inevitable contraction of the Eternal City.Of course, Rome grew again over the centuries. But the new Romans were not the same Romans as those of the Roman Empire, who left few descendants. In addition to far off cosmopolitans, the bulk of the population was probably derived from northern Lazio and southern Tuscany. Rural people whose genetic makeup resembled the Iron Age Italians from whom they descended."
syrian-orontes-has-long-since-dried-up-to-be-replaced-by-the-tiber-once-more
So I1 came to Italy with Germanic tribes, Goths, as expected. Iron Age Italy very enriched with R1b just like today.
The irony of all this is that Albanians are not very "Illyrian" at all, so why you cling to it so much as the defining element of your ethnicity is beyond me. Holdovers from your Communist dictatorship's propaganda? There are northeastern Italians who are closer to the Illyrians than you are. Heck, even the Spaniards come out as "close" to the Illyrians. Did your ancestors travel all the way to Iberia as well? It's just similar mixtures of steppe and Neolithic, for crying out loud.
They probably had regional differences.
I don't believe southern Illyrians will be different from Thracians tbh. Not that it bothers me.
 
So I1 came to Italy with Germanic tribes, Goths, as expected. Iron Age Italy very enriched with R1b just like today.

They probably had regional differences.
I don't believe southern Illyrians will be different from Thracians tbh. Not that it bothers me.

I think the Romans knew what they where naming areas in their republic and imperial times ............Epirus was split into 2 ...........the older southern one of modern Albania and a bit of NW greece and the newer north one of modern north Albania , called Epirus Nova ( New Epirus ) ....where the main Roman supply route ran from....modern Durres to modern Istanbul
 
So I1 came to Italy with Germanic tribes, Goths, as expected. Iron Age Italy very enriched with R1b just like today.

They probably had regional differences.
I don't believe southern Illyrians will be different from Thracians tbh. Not that it bothers me.

It must be the Goths, who were much less of a folk migration for what that's worth, than the Langobardi, who are pretty uniformly U-106 so far, yes?

I do value your objective analysis of all these matters, for what that's worth as well, and I deeply respect the Albanians for their sense of honor in doing what they could to help Italy in turn for Italy's help.
 
Marija Gimbutas
Tursha are held to be the early Etruscans, whose central Balkan origin can be guessed on the basis of the curious correspondence of pottery types between early Etruscan Etruria and the Girla-Mare and Verbicioara group on the Danube in Balkan origin can be guessed on the basis of the curious correspondence of pottery types between early Etruscan Etruria and the Girla-Mare and Verbicioara group on the Danube in northeastern Yugoslavia and southwestern Rumania (as I was informed by Dr. Hencken).


G. E. W. Wolstenholme, ‎Cecilia M. O'Connor - Medical Biology and Etruscan Origins
In the example from Tarquinia the bull-bird is itself a vessel. The most striking parallel to the Tarquinian chariot is the one from the Glasinac in Bosnia (Seewald, 1939), though it is scarcely older than the one from Tarquinia and may be later (Fig. 10). Another bull-bird, but undated, comes from Hungary, and like the one from Tarquinia it is also a vessel, though it has no wheels


G. E. W. Wolstenholme, ‎Cecilia M. O'Connor - Medical Biology and Etruscan Origins
The urns that are most like Villanovan are the Dubovac-Zuto hrdo and Girla Mare urns found in the region where Hungary, Rumania and Jugoslavia come together (Berciu and Comsa, I9 56, Fig. 40; Wosinsky, 1904, Plates LXIX, XCI, XCVI; Zambotti, I9 54, Plates XIX, I10, I II; XXI, I28; Benac, I956—see also for references). These are placed in the Middle and Late Bronze Ages and hence are quite old enough to be the ancestors of the Villanovan urn.


Etruscans came from the Balkans? They brought the Etruscan language from the Balkans to Italy. That is why one finds it's cousin, the Lemnian there.. The Late Bronze Age Collapse wiped out (and pushed, like the Armenians and Phrygians who came from the Balkans) the Etruroid and various other Balkan IE languages or reduced them to small pockets.

The reason Balkan J2b2 was found in an Etruscan is because Etruscans came from the Balkans. The reason the sample was clustering autosomally with the Balkans is the same.

These pre Bronze Age Collapse cultures in the Balkans. We do know they existed, we do not know what language they spoke, we know that in Iron Age, early History they spoke Illyran and Thracian but we also know the propagation of Illyrian and Thracian languages is related by many to some LBA and EIA cultures, mostly Hallstat/Urnfield..

The question is the nature of the Etruscan. Is Etruscan the EEF language or did it arrive from the Anatolia? In the former case I suspect various E-V13 preserved the Etruscan in the Balkans (though various or majority spoke IE surely), and if Etruscan was not EEF than I believe it was most definitely brought by the J-L283.

Rhaetic, cousin of Etruscan is considered as more distant to the Etruscan than Lemnian. Some G-L497 clades might be tied to
Rhaetic (as could hypothetically some CE J-L283's). In fact we find on the Lemnos itself in Greek FTDNA Project we find a rare G-Y8903, negative to all subclades below.

As far as genetic facts are concerned various E-V13 and J-L283 clades do have
likely "Sea People" associations (Levant-Italian LBA-MBA links).

Some of these Balkan MBA cultures are counted by many as "IE" speaking based on funerary traditions etc. but Etruscans had also IE influences and they spoke Etruscan.

That's the interesting point was Etruscan EEF, it has no relation to Basque and apparently more people connect Basque to EEF's than to WHG's.

Herodotus tells us Etruscans came from Anatolia. If that's true that favors the "South of Black Sea" J-L283 migratory route.
 

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