Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

romans were very mixed so Southern Europe is very mixed

@Carlos, indeed

All of Europe is a mix of different source populations, including eastern Europe and Scandinavia.

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lol being German/Hungarian ancestry

What is your point? You're still from a mix of different source populations. Take a look at the admixture chart I posted; Germans, and Hungarians are no exception. As a matter of fact, Hungarians are listed among them. A large amount of LBK (Neolthic Farmers), relatively large amount of Yamnaya which is half Iranian/half EHG, a minority of WHG, and a small amount of post-bronze age nganasan-like admixture. At any rate, this thread is not about teaching the basics of human population genetics. It is for us to discuss the paper on ancient Rome. Superficial and ignorant statements like "romans were very mixed so Southern Europe is very mixed", only serves to reduce your integrity among the serious and genuine enthusiasts.
 
lol being German/Hungarian ancestry

You could have some Roman in you, our Roman Ancestors got around ...

Take a DNA test and find out, ... if you did, please share your results in the appropriate thread.

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Is this the Italian Nordicist perspective?

I haven't looked at each of those samples individually yet, but the majority of the Iron Age/Republican Rome Era samples are at least one third Indo-European, which makes them Southern European.

That's not good enough for you?

What did you expect? Scandinavians? Germans?

Honestly, what planet do some of you internet pop gen people come from? You're not playing with a full deck.

And one more pejorative about people from the Near East and you're history.

The culture to which all of Europe owes so much derives from the Near East via Greece. It sure as hell didn't come from the steppe.

You threw the facts on the table. I don't understand why some people are obsessed with northern europe or the steppe. Southern Europe and the near east are amazing on their own merits and are not behind anyone.
 
You threw the facts on the table. I don't understand why some people are obsessed with northern europe or the steppe. Southern Europe and the near east are amazing on their own merits and are not behind anyone.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I get so irritated with certain posters and sites. I don't understand it.
 
Smart move taking the downvote away, now t-rolls have one less weapon in their arsenal
 
Screen Shot 2019-11-16 at 3.11.35 PM.pngAncestry DNA must be obsessed with steppe, too, because THEY TOOK AWAY ALL TRACE OF MY 100% SICILIAN GREAT-GRANDFATHER! My Nana is half Sicilian, for crying out loud, her paternal grandparents were born in Palazzo Adriano! Well, schmucks, I was named after him, so you can't take that away!
 
I have spoken with Ancestry and they do not sell their kit for Spain.
 
Interestingly, the Near eastern cluster (C4) is explicitly modeled as 30%-50% North African in qpAdm. After going extinct by Late Antiquity, it is only reasonable to believe that the majority, if not all, trace-North African ancestry comes from the Moors. Not Jewish populations, who were ethnically cleansed from many parts of Italy, or fled, throughout the ages.

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[CITAÇÃO = Angela; 590886] Não concordo mais. É por isso que fico tão irritado com certos pôsteres e sites. Eu não entendo isso.

I'm not Italian, but I always think of Italy's cultural history as amazing in every way. I have no interest in disparaging others, but it is a fact that the cultural construction of Greeks and Italians for Europe was truly phenomenal. The fact that there is much Greek descent in southern Italy should be a source of pride, never a shame. I don't understand how anyone who claims to be proud of being 'European' can disparage the descendants of those who have been responsible for most of European cultural development for thousands of years.


Accepting that one of Europe's largest military, cultural, and land-based empires has more genetic affinity for southern Europe and the near east must also be difficult to accept for those who find themselves more special because they are from the north. No disrespect for the north on my part, the north also has its history and importance - especially in the modern context. But it would be important to put regionalisms a bit aside and simply accept the facts as they are. Each people has had its moments of grandeur and this need not be turned into sentimental and identity disputes to the point of falling into absurd theorizing and resentment.
 
I paid for access to the paper, and I'm going over it with a fine-tooth comb. Interestingly, the authors suggest that it is plausible that rather than additional source population of CHG/IN; Neolthic Italian Farmers could be from a different source population different from Central European, and Iberian farmers. Rather, they may have come directly from Central Anatolia, or Northern Greece.

What I also find interesting is that they qpAdm model the Central Italian Neolithic ancestry in a two-way mixture as 5% WHG + 95% Neolithic Central Anatolian Farmer/Northern Greece Farmer. With this study as a citation:

The genomic history of southeastern Europe

Abstract

Farming was first introduced to Europe in the mid-seventh millennium BC, and was associated with migrants from Anatolia who settled in the southeast before spreading throughout Europe. Here, to understand the dynamics of this process, we analysed genome-wide ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and surrounding regions between 12000 and 500 BC. We document a west–east cline of ancestry in indigenous hunter-gatherers and, in eastern Europe, the early stages in the formation of Bronze Age steppe ancestry. We show that the first farmers of northern and western Europe dispersed through southeastern Europe with limited hunter-gatherer admixture, but that some early groups in the southeast mixed extensively with hunter-gatherers without the sex-biased admixture that prevailed later in the north and west. We also show that southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between east and west after the arrival of farmers, with intermittent genetic contact with steppe populations occurring up to 2,000 years earlier than the migrations from the steppe that ultimately replaced much of the population of northern Europe.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778

Discussed here:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...istory-of-southeastern-Europe-Mathiesen-et-al
 
What I also find interesting is that they qpAdm model the Central Italian Neolithic ancestry in a two-way mixture as 5% WHG + 95% Neolithic Central Anatolian Farmer/Northern Greece Farmer. With this study as a citation:



Discussed here:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...istory-of-southeastern-Europe-Mathiesen-et-al

We also show that southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between east and west after the arrival of farmers, with intermittent genetic contact with steppe populations occurring up to 2,000 years earlier than the migrations from the steppe that ultimately replaced much of the population of northern Europe.

Perhaps my paternal-lineage PF7562 has something to do with this migration.

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R850 Y T-L208 - mtDNA T2c1f
R437 Y R-P312 - mtDNA H10

R850 Y line is a “Remarkable” line, there aren't many of us, but we are everywhere :)

R850 is a y T1a1... - I’m a y T1a2...

Nobody shares more DNA with R850 than me (as of now), though I share even more with R437.


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Holy crap Salento, it's like R437 is your 3rd-4th cousin!
 
The only samples where I get such high IBD are...



[h=4]Protovillanovia Martinsicuro[/h]
[h=4]930 BC[/h]
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R1
[/h]

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mtDNA: U5a2b[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Total cM=63.76
Largest segment=48.54 cM (2 shared. Sample quality: 94) - (Sample is too new for user comparison)

Chr. 8

15.22 cM









Chr. 16

48.54 cM











My second highest is...
[h=4]Scythian Moldova[/h]
[h=4]290 BC[/h]
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scy311
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mtDNA: T2b[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Total cM=25.04
Largest segment=12.0 cM (6 shared. Sample quality: 23) - Your raw DNA is
[FONT=&quot]​
99
% closer than other matching users[/FONT]


Chr. 3

2.57 cM









Chr. 5

6.38 cM













Chr. 6

1.95 cM









Chr. 16

12.0 cM









Chr. 17

2.13 cM









I have to say, though, that I'm a little leery of getting such high, familial like levels of IBD with such ancient samples.

Overall genetic distance is different. I think it's quite possible to be fairly close to a sample even 3000 years old in some countries.
 
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My highest matches. Even one 100% compared to other users. Now when I publish I can see even better how they share segments on the same chromosomes.
 
On what basis do you think you have inherited from thousand of years ago, tens of cM ?

You may have missed it. I said I'm leery of these IBD numbers, although they're clearly related to genetic similarity.

I have more confidence in the distance estimates. Now, the numbers may not be exact, but they make absolute sense given my ancestry and everyone else's whose results I've seen, whether from northwestern, eastern, or southern Europe.
 
On what basis do you think you have inherited from thousand of years ago, tens of cM ?

On the ground basis. On the basis that although there is currently a super population, we logically descend from tribes, ethnic groups with fewer members. And on the basis of art since a relative of mine who I am sure did not know what Cogotas carved bulls with the same stop and style as the ancients. I made elementary rams myself for a portal in Bethlehem with 9 years with the same stop as the old ones, the teacher asked me if I had made them.

And for more inri we have a toponymic surname of the area where Cogotas was. And those bulls and cockles were not imported.

I sincerely believe it. I will not go into the minute because it is not my thing, but if I saw something strange or incredible I would have enough intuition to detect it, and all this I believe, there is truth in all of it

And the final question if this is denied, where would it descend from? Of the Australians, Eskimos? Is it more incoherent and hard to believe stepping on the ground than floor that descends from Cógotas, isn't it?

I hope you have a good evening


Very kind, he greets you carefully this is:


Carlos
 

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