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    Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

    It is out:

    Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean


    Abstract

    Ancient Rome was the capital of an empire of ~70 million inhabitants, but little is known about the genetics of ancient Romans. Here we present 127 genomes from 29 archaeological sites in and around Rome, spanning the past 12,000 years. We observe two major prehistoric ancestry transitions: one with the introduction of farming and another prior to the Iron Age. By the founding of Rome, the genetic composition of the region approximated that of modern Mediterranean populations. During the Imperial period, Romes population received net immigration from the Near East, followed by an increase in genetic contributions from Europe. These ancestry shifts mirrored the geopolitical affiliations of Rome and were accompanied by marked interindividual diversity, reflecting gene flow from across the Mediterranean, Europe, and North Africa.



    LINK: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708
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    Behind a paywall?!

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    It seems so. I got the paper with sci hub, but the supplementary data do not seem to be extractable with sci hub.

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    "An analysis of some of the earliest samples more or less comports with what has been found around Europe—they represent an influx of farmers primarily descended from early agriculturalists from Turkey and Iran around 8,000 years ago, followed by a shift toward ancestry from the Ukrainian steppe somewhere between 5,000 and 3,000 years ago. By the founding of Rome, traditionally dated to 753 BCE, the city's population had grown in diversity and resembled modern European and Mediterranean peoples"
    Looks like Anatolian copper age-like admixture reached the area of Rome, prior to Steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Looks like Anatolian copper age-like admixture reached the area of Rome, prior to Steppe.
    Logically, one would assume this admixture was stronger in the South during this time as well. Further increased by the Greek settlers. The creation of Roman Italy probably brought a great deal of this ancestry into the area of Rome.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Logically, one would assume this admixture was stronger in the South during this time as well. Further increased by the Greek settlers. The creation of the Roman province of Italia probably brought a great deal of this ancestry into the area of Rome.

    Where do you think we're located on the map that Pax posted?

    I think I know (S.E of S.Italy line), but I'm not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Where do you think we're located on the map that Pax posted?

    I think I understand it, but I'm not sure.
    I think the green dots are the Italian samples from the Lombard paper. If so, it would be relative to that. Thus near the Northern side of the Imperial Roman cluster, with a proclivity towards the Greek centroid. That's my guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I think I know (S.E of S.Italy line), but I'm not sure.
    Apulians are north/northeast of the south Italian line.

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    No e-z830 i look at the table
    But there is e-v12 in lazio from 0-200 ad so cool
    Imperial period...
    Convlusion
    I shouldnt listen to rumors ...

    I look at table 1-4 in the paper

    Mesolitic:
    I

    : neolithic
    G-L91
    J-m304
    J-L26
    R-m343

    Copper age :
    G-F1193
    H-L901
    I-cts616
    I-m223
    G-pf3359

    Iron age:
    R-m269
    T-L208
    R-P311
    R-PF7588
    J-m12
    R-p312
    R-p312

    Imperial:
    R-PF7589
    E-V12
    J-m92
    J-Z631
    G-FGC5089
    J-p58
    There are more
    J,R,G .....

    Late antiquity:
    :400-600ad
    One e-v13 dude was found

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    So, most Republican Era Romans are pretty close to Northwestern Italians, with some drifting toward Tuscans? Close enough. :)

    Basically what we've been saying here all along, as Salento has pointed out.

    One is more Sardinian like, and one more Central Italian like.

    The burial context is very important here. What are the class differences, if any?

    The Neolithic people in the vicinity of Rome already had CHG or Iranian Neolithic like ancestry.

    "Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA (13, 14, 1719) (Fig. 2A). However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12). Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12) (14). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe."

    So I said for 5 years, to much derision. There was Iranian and J2 in Italy in the Neolithic. I wonder if there was even more in the south?

    Could this be Cardial versus Danubian? Yet, it doesn't show up in the Spanish Neolithic, which came from Cardial. Perhaps it's from a movement closer to the Copper Age, and via Northern Greece?

    As to the yDna, could the R1b be V88? The J2's are definitely Caucasus like, yes?

    For Iron Age Rome...


    "
    We collected data from 11 Iron Age individuals dating from 900 to 200 BCE (including the Republican period). This group shows a clear ancestry shift from the Copper Age, interpreted by ADMIXTURE as the addition of a Steppe-related ancestry component and an increase in the Neolithic Iranian component (Figs. 2B and 3B). Using qpAdm, we modeled the genetic shift by an introduction of ~30 to 40% ancestry from Bronze and Iron Age nomadic populations from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (table S15), similar to many Bronze Age populations in Europe (10, 13, 14, 19, 22). The presence of Steppe-related ancestry in Iron Age Italy could have happened through genetic exchange with intermediary populations (5, 23). Additionally, multiple source populations could have contributed, simultaneously or subsequently, to the ancestry transition before Iron Age. By 900 BCE at the latest, the inhabitants of central Italy had begun to approximate the genetics of modern Mediterranean populations."

    "Although we were able to model eight of the 11 individuals as two-way mixtures of Copper Age central Italians and a Steppe-related population (~24 to 38%) using qpAdm, this model was rejected for the other three individuals (p < 0.001; table S16). Instead, two individuals from Latin sites (R437 and R850) can be modeled as a mixture between local people and an ancient Near Eastern population (best approximated by Bronze Age Armenian or Iron Age Anatolian; tables S17 and S18). An Etruscan individual (R475) carries significant African ancestry identified by f-statistics (|Z-score|>3; fig. S23) and can be modeled with ~53% ancestry from Late Neolithic Moroccan (table S19). Together these results suggest substantial genetic heterogeneity within the Etruscan (n = 3 individuals) and Latin (n = 6) groups. However, using f-statistics, we did not find significant genetic differentiation between the Etruscans and Latins in allele sharing with any preceding or contemporaneous population (|Z-score|<2), although the power to detect subtle genetic differentiation is limited by the small sample size."

    Well, there's a bit of a surprise in terms of one of the Etruscans? Someone took a foreign bride? :) Too bad three of the Etruscans are female.

    Odd using an Iberomaurusian for comparison. Surely they could use someone more contemporaneous, or even modern?

    I really have to dig into the burial contexts, if they provide enough data. It's important. It seems all of the imperial samples are from the port area. Yes, I get that they may be second generation or something, going by isotopes, but this is a specific group, not necessarily representative of all Italian Imperial Romans.
    Hell, it's like some archaeologist from the future finding a big bunch of samples in Flushing who are East Asian.

    I'm also highly skeptical that the big northern shift in Late Antiquity is from Lombards and Goths, for God's sake. There were too few of them, especially by the time they got to Rome, and where is there a sign of sufficient I1 or U-106 to make that big a change? The samples just don't come from a "Little Levant".

    Maybe I'll feel differently after I go through the whole supplement and check the context for each sample, but it just seems to me there's a lot of sheer speculation here.

    I do think it's funny that they maintain the shift is to the north in Antiquity. Remember that paper that said, based on modern samples, and using a dating tool, that in Antiquity there was a huge movement of Byzantine Anatolians and Levantines into Italy. I even wrote to them and said if there was a shift in Antiquity it would be north, because of the Barbarian invasions. They said that wasn't what their data showed. I responded that maybe they had their locals and intruders mixed up. All the usual suspects joined on that band wagon. Guess it was wrong. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    The Neolithic people in the vicinity of Rome already had CHG or Iranian Neolithic like ancestry.

    "Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA (13, 14, 1719) (Fig. 2A). However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12). Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12) (14). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe."

    So I said for 5 years, to much derision. There was Iranian and J2 in Italy in the Neolithic. I wonder if there was even more in the south?

    Could this be Cardial versus Danubian? Yet, it doesn't show up in the Spanish Neolithic, which came from Cardial. Perhaps it's from a movement closer to the Copper Age, and via Northern Greece?

    As to the yDna, could the R1b be V88? The J2's are definitely Caucasus like, yes?



    I noticed these Neolithic people in the vicinity of Rome are just as south, but further west of Southern Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    I noticed these Neolithic people in the vicinity of Rome are just as south, but further west of Southern Italians.
    From Central Italian-Southern Italian.

    Year ago, when Otzi's genome came out, Dienekes did some analyses that showed that after the Sardinians, Southern Italians were pretty close to him too. Northern Italians and Tuscans have a lot of EEF too.

    When push comes to shove, and all this talk of all these migrations, Central and Southern Italians haven't moved all that far.

    I misspoke a bit. There are three "outlier" Iron Age Romans. One is still Sardinian like (different burial?), one is Central Italian like, and one is Southern Italian like.

    The authors never address the fact that some of this movement into Rome could have been from Southern Italy, which is a big problem.

    Well, after all is said and done, the Etruscans and the "original" Romans were Southern Europeans, not Germans or Scandinavians or Slavs.

    They also seem to be pretty close to Northwestern Italians. My father must be crying with joy. :)

    @Johane,
    Perhaps, or perhaps both the Etruscans and Illyrians got it from a similar ancestor population. There is absolutely no way of knowing at the present time, no matter the wishful thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I misspoke a bit. There are three "outlier" Iron Age Romans. One is still Sardinian like (different burial?), one is Central Italian like, and one is Southern Italian like.
    The 11 Iron age individuals include 7 Roman/Latins (R851, R1, R1016, R1021, R435, R437, R850) and 4 Etruscans (R1015, R474, R473, R475). The three outliers are two Roman/Latins (R437, R850) and one Etruscan (R475).

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    the tribes that founded Rome were R1b-M269 and they arrived between 2300 and 900 BC

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    I now looked in the table there is 1 E-L257/L19
    Dude From late mediveal 1280-1430 ad ....
    To bad he is johny come lately....
    anyway he is in the e-z827 branch as oposed to the e-v12 and e-v13 that were found in remains
    Who belong to the e-v68 branch.
    The E in this paper:
    samples:
    1) R113, Via Paisiello, 0-200CE (Imperial Rome) - E-V12
    2) R107, Crypta Balbi, 400-600CE (Late Antiquity) - E-V13
    3) R59, Villa Magna, 820-990CE (Early Medieval) - E-V12
    4) R53, Villa Magna, 1280-1430CE (Late Medieval) - E-V257
    5) R1219, Cancelleria, 1417-1463CE (Renaissance) - E-V13
    Last edited by kingjohn; 08-11-19 at 07:27.

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    Maybe this might make it a bit easier to decipher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Maybe this might make it a bit easier to decipher.
    Thanks Jovialis, I see the Circle.

    I’m glad that I get to keep my Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think the green dots are the Italian samples from the Lombard paper. If so, it would be relative to that. Thus near the Northern side of the Imperial Roman cluster, with a proclivity towards the Greek centroid. That's my guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Apulians are north/northeast of the south Italian line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Maybe this might make it a bit easier to decipher.

    I was right :)




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post



    I was right :)



    Indeed you were. :)

    The Dodecad K12b is more in sync with the findings of an academic paper than Eurogenes is, despite being so old.

    As I've been saying for ever, Eurogenes results are slanted, particularly as regards Italians. He's not an honest broker, and never has been, unlike Dienekes.

    I just wish Dienekes was still active so that he could update the calculators or even come up with a new one.

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    Trojet has checked the BAM file for the J2b etruscan:


    "I just checked the BAM file for: R474, Civitavecchia, Etruscan, 700-600BCE (Iron Age/Roman Republic) - J-M12+

    He is: J2b-L283>>Z597>Y15058>CTS6190

    My friend Principe called it. We do have a J-CTS6190 in ancient Italy"


    This individual was related to the Croatian coast J2b. This is from the supplement:
    " In addition, a Bronze Age individual from Croatia (1631-1521 calBCE) belonged to the J2b2a haplogroup (14) and carried exactly the M314 derived allele that is also found in R474."

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    1 members found this post helpful.



    Here's another comparison.

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    Okay, so rumours about Early Romans being South Italian-like are not confirmed.

    This PCA shows Republican Era Romans in Latium were probably like modern Piedmontese (North-West Italians):

    Only during the Imperial Era mass migration from East Mediterranean changed it:

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708





    BTW, soon another paper with ancient DNA from other regions of Italy (outside of Latium) should be published.

    This paper had only DNA from the city of Rome and surrounding areas within the present-day region of Latium.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Okay, so rumours about Early Romans being South Italian-like are not confirmed.

    There were never any of these rumors. What you call early Romans are actually Iron Age Latins.

    According to the rumors, it was the Imperial Romans who were South-Italian like.

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