Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

real expert: If you don't mind me asking, why are the Afrocentrist allowed to troll there at antrogenica and if you challenge them you get banned. FYI, I am not a member there nor have I ever been. Do the Afrocentrist there still have problems with the Schuenemann et al 2016 paper on Ancient Egypt. That paper had 90 ancient Egyptians, I know from the Middle Kingdom analyzed in terms of mtDNA and if I remember correctly 3 Full genomes. The paper had J. Krause on it who was involved with the sequencing of the Denisovans so if people there are having problems with that paper, then:rolleyes:.

If you want to say the samples were only from the Middle Kingdom and not Upper Egypt, ok, but the results are what they are.

I'll answer your question by sending you a PM since I don't want to derail this thread.
 
This paper has become relevant to me because I found out that one of my great grandfathers was J2a-L70. To my knowledge, the earliest sample of L70 was found in this paper, in late antiquity Rome. I was told as a child that we might have a little Italian ancestry. Many years later, out of the blue, a relative contacted me and shared his genetic tests, including his Y DNA result, and told me a story about an Italian connection.

The oral history is anecdotal, and unfortunately our L70 subclade is unknown, but the result is an interesting bit of evidence. There are two Greeks with L70 in YFull, and two in an unpublished Stanford study. It looks from the map like the haplogroup may have made its way from the Middle East to Anatolia then the Balkans, Italy and other parts of Europe. It’s “parent,” L25 was also found in the Stanford study, apparently. In this paper the “grandparent” L26 was found in Imperial Rome.
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Maybe we should not consider the roman as a concept of nation, only a concept of law and politics. Classical city-state civilization has highly floating population, if I remember correctly, the dynasty of Tarquinius was established by an 'Etruscan' whose father was from Corinth Greece, the epoch control by Latins is only a part of the whole roman civilization.After all, in the time of Tacitus(AD55-AD120), he said the senators were basically sons of knights and freed slaves (indicating a foreign source), and hardly found a few local families.
 
Maybe we should not consider the roman as a concept of nation, only a concept of law and politics. Classical city-state civilization has highly floating population, if I remember correctly, the dynasty of Tarquinius was established by an 'Etruscan' whose father was from Corinth Greece, the epoch control by Latins is only a part of the whole roman civilization.After all, in the time of Tacitus(AD55-AD120), he said the senators were basically sons of knights and freed slaves (indicating a foreign source), and hardly found a few local families.

Perhaps than, you should read the paper of which this thread is about. Because the Imperial era's foreign sources are shown to not have had any significant impact in the subsequent eras. The following era was defined by deep demographic shifts; which says so explicitly in the paper. Meaning, native Italians from the hinterlands had reclaimed the cities. Frankly, I am getting fed up with this canard, especially after it has been refuted by genetics.

Rome was an empire, established by the Italic tribe, the Latini. The Etruscans, Greeks, Celts, Illyrians and other Italics were incorporated into Rome. Of course there isn't a monolithic ethnic group, this is elementary.

The greatest shift probably came when newly incorporated Greeks from the south, who we know are high in CHG, mixed with the Italic population. The Latins and Etruscans we have DNA for cluster with Northern Italians, who were already intermediate between central Europeans, and other southern Europeans. This is evident in the genetic profile of medieval Central Italians.
 
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Here is the section:

Late Antiquity and the fall of Rome


Late Antiquity was characterized by deep demographic changes and political reorganization, including the split of the Roman Empire into eastern and western halves, the movement of the capital from Rome to Byzantium (later Constantinople), and the gradual dissolution of the Western Roman Empire (maps in Fig. 3, C and D) (1, 3).
 
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Yes, well the foreign contingent shifted to Constantinople along with the Emperor and governing body. Italia and Roma lost their importance, and the immigrants moved on and other people from the north moved in.
 
I just posted this on the Calabrian thread. For those not reading it:

"I agree with you except for the fact that Modern Iranians and Caucasians do indeed have a lot of Iran Neo ancestry, along with Anatolian farmer. The gene flow went both ways. The fact is that a wave of that ancestry spread into Anatolia and mixed with the Anatolian farmers living there. Perhaps through Anatolians it spread south into the Levant, eventually even reaching North Africa. It definitely spread into the Central and Western Mediterranean, again, as I've said over and over again, as an admixed group. There is absolutely no evidence from history of a movement to Italy or Greece, for that matter, from the Caucasus itself.

In terms of Italy in, say, the Bronze and Iron Age, I'm not sure if all of it came via the Greeks or if some of it came directly from Anatolia itself. (It certainly didn't go to Etruria, as the Etruscans clearly came from Central Europe, which 90% of the internet said was fantasy when I and a few others insisted on it here and on anthrogenica; one of the many things they and eurogenes got wrong about Southern Europe.) In isolated places like southern and southwestern Sardinia in the Iron Age, some of it may have come with Phoenicians. Perhaps a bit arrived in the same way in Northwestern Sicily. The rest of Sicily and the mainland are different.

The Moots paper, other than providing the ancient samples, tends to confuse rather than clarify the issue of what happened in Imperial Age. Once we get Southern Italian samples and Greek samples from the Iron Age, we'll know better how much Iran Neo/CHG, for example, arrived in Italy with the Greeks and then could have very likely moved northward.

The problem with Moots is that it assumes every single burial sample is a long term resident of Rome, i.e. Roman or at least Italian. That's manifestly a simplification. Not every person who "looks" like a Levantine or even an Anatolian on a PCA would have become a long time settler whose progeny contributed to the local genomes. We can see that with some of the samples from the post Imperial period whom we've analyzed and who are manifestly northern European visitors to Rome. Had they done some isotopic testing we might have a clearer idea of who was "local" and who was not. Added to all this, in the period in question, some Romans still practiced cremation, so the sample is not representative.

Then, there's the question of the big demographic change even earlier than the end of the Empire. Rome was gradually abandoned as the seat of Empire. Everything shifted either to Constantinople or to Northern Italy. That's why the "tail to the east" ended. The traders left.

There is indeed also the period of the Germanic invasions. The problem with attributing much of the change to them, the popular back to the beginning scenario particularly in the north, is that every Germanic invader sample we've found is either I1 or R1b-U106. I can't believe that a paper purporting to deal with Italian genetics totally ignored yDna. The one thing yDna is really good for is tracking migrations. There's far too little of either I1 or U106, even in the Veneto, much less in Lazio, to account for a change from people with almost no steppe to people with 25-30% steppe. It doesn't matter how small the "native" population might have been due to plague, invasion, the Gothic Wars etc.; the "Germanic" ydna would have to be higher than it is. Not to mention that the Langobards numbered around 100,000 people even according to their own scribes, and the Goths were even smaller in number. The arrival of the Visigoths mimics, imo what happened in Hungary with the arrival of the "Huns".

I really hope the Reich Lab, and Razib Khan in his summary, don't make these kind of elementary mistakes.

Now, if someone shows the Germanics carried a lot of R1b U152 then that's a different story.

I'd also like to see samples from the Italian countryside and mountains from the Late Imperial and Post Imperial Era. When cities collapse, people from the periphery move down and repopulate them.

We need more data.

Northern Italian Neo-Nazis, like their brethren from other countries, may want to believe that they have tons of "Germanic" dna from the invasion period, but that really "is" a fantasy.
 

Northern Italian Neo-Nazis, like their brethren from other countries, may want to believe that they have tons of "Germanic" dna from the invasion period, but that really "is" a fantasy.

Why would they want that? Given that they do in fact have a lot of DNA similar to the people who founded Rome. DNA from a Germanic invasion breaks that continuity.
 
Why would they want that? Given that they do in fact have a lot of DNA similar to the people who founded Rome. DNA from a Germanic invasion breaks that continuity.

Brother, that's the million dollar question. Insanity springs to mind. :)

One of these weirdos has his hair cut German military style in a picture, along with what looks like his version of a German military uniform.

Meanwhile, Italy was brutalized by the German invasion, aided, to our shame, by some of our Blackshirts.

Maybe it's things on the internet, the desire to identify with the more prosperous European countries of the last two centuries? Maybe it's because of the separatism in certain regions? No proper pride in being "Italian" in some regions?

To be honest, there's long been a certain feeling of superiority in some Northern Italians versus Southern Italians based a lot on sheer "looks". My own grandfather used to say horrible things about the ancestry of Southern Italians apparently, although I learned that only when I was older. My father jokingly told me that had he been alive when I got engaged to my husband there would have been hell to pay. My own second cousin was forbidden to marry a son of Southern Italian migrants. Only after five years had passed and she wouldn't look at anyone else did they relent. Meanwhile, he was infinitely too good for her, both in character and looks. :) Out of that whole family he's much my favorite person.

Maybe those kinds of attitudes in certain families provided fertile ground for that kind of internet propaganda.ar
In the beginning, the Lega Nord, most dominant in the Veneto and certain parts of Lombardia, wanted to secede and join the Alpine countries, like Switzerland. Of all the idiocy, that was the worst. As if Switzerland would have them. They barely tolerate the Ticino. Try speaking Italian, one of the three "official" languages of Switzerland, in Basel. As if speaking in Venetian would make a difference. Still sounds "Italian" to them, as indeed it is.

Or, they take too seriously the fact that the Nazis declared us "Honorary Aryans" because that idiot Mussolini tied us to them. Of course, looking at Hitler and a lot of his cronies, yeah, quite a few of us look more "Aryan" than they do. :)

I don't know too much about Golden Dawn and whether they identify with Germans or are just their own band of loonies. Nothing would surprise me.

Ed. One of the ironies of this situation is that during the period shortly after Rome conquered the north, people like Livy were falling all over themselves in their claims to be Romans, and trying to brush aside any prior Celtic/Gallic associations. Most people are really disgusting, you know? It's just about associating yourself with what you perceive as power.
 
Brother, that's the million dollar question. Insanity springs to mind. :)

One of these weirdos has his hair cut German military style in a picture, along with what looks like his version of a German military uniform.

Meanwhile, Italy was brutalized by the German invasion, aided, to our shame, by some of our Blackshirts.

I have seen more neo-Nazi with Slavic ancestry than of Germanic heritage or Italian or anything else. Funny because Hitler considered Slavs inferior people owned by Jewish masters. You go figure.
 
I have seen more neo-Nazi with Slavic ancestry than of Germanic heritage or Italian or anything else. Funny because Hitler considered Slavs inferior people owned by Jewish masters. You go figure.[/QUOTGE]

You're exactly right. That's where there is the most in the open racist skin head activity as well.

When I've mentioned in the past that they were next on the chopping block, plans already having been drawn up to send them for extermination after the Jews and Homosexuals (forgetting some well known Nazis were Homosexual and Hitler probably had severe sexual problems of course; they weren't going to get any children from him for their breeding program) and gypsies were taken care of, they argue over the authenticity of the plans, which are completely authentic, and as if the attitude toward Slavs wasn't obvious and repeatedly displayed.

The Nazis wanted all that good, flat farmland for the more industrious German farmers. It was called Lebenstraum. This article blames it all on the Nazis, but it was part of the stated reason for World War I by Imperial Germany as well, just carried to undreamed of extremes. (The Italians to my shame, got into the act, which is why they tried to get into the colonialism game, as one example.)

"The German concept of Lebensraum (German pronunciation: [ˈleːbənsˌʁaʊm] (listen), "living space") comprises policies and practices of settler colonialism which proliferated in Germany from the 1890s to the 1940s. First popularized around 1901,[2] Lebensraum became a geopolitical goal of Imperial Germany in World War I (1914–1918) originally, as the core element of the Septemberprogramm of territorial expansion.[3] The most extreme form of this ideology was supported by the Nazi Party (NSDAP) and Nazi Germany until the end of World War II.[4]Following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the German territorial expansion into Central and Eastern Europe.[5] The Nazi Generalplan Ost policy ('Master Plan for the East') was based on its tenets. It stipulated that Germany required a Lebensraum necessary for its survival and that most of the indigenous populations of Central and Eastern Europe would have to be removed permanently (either through mass deportation to Siberia, extermination, or enslavement) including Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech and other Slavic nations considered non-Aryan. The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during World War II and thereafter.[6][7][8][9] Entire indigenous populations were decimated by starvation, allowing for their own agricultural surplus to feed Germany.[6]"



Of course, the Nazis identified race by physical characteristics in some cases. So, for example, if a Polish or Russian child was blonde and blue eyed and had the right cranial and face measurements, they sometimes made an exception and took them from their parents to be adopted by German parents. There's a great video program about it. The bitterness of these children. now adults, is profound, poor things.
 
But today we know from genetics that many of the slavs ( considered inferiour by nazis)
Are more closer to the ancient indo-iranians aka aryan than germans....( or at least the germans who are not r1a):unsure:


P.s
And personally the european left is more dangerous
At least i know what those skin head think the are not hiding what you see is what you get...
 
And personally the european left is more dangerous
At least i know what those skin head think the are not hiding what you see is what you get...

the nazis or skinheads are just the tip of the iceberg. most of the rest you can not see. they are just a very extreme subgroup of the overall racist population.
and if someone is a nazi who follows Hitler or just another racist in any other shape or form, doesn't matter in the end.
 
the nazis or skinheads are just the tip of the iceberg. most of the rest you can not see. they are just a very extreme subgroup of the overall racist population.
and if someone is a nazi who follows Hitler or just another racist in any other shape or form, doesn't matter in the end.
Including non-white racists, who advocate for their own racial supremacy.
 
Including non-white racists, who advocate for their own racial supremacy.

of course. i would also include ethno- or "race"-centrists who base their centrism on genetics.
 
of course. i would also include ethno- or "race"-centrists who base their centrism on genetics.

I think the real danger is misunderstanding genetics, or twisting it to fit ideology. I see it a lot when I lurk on that dumpster fire known as twitter.

I think understanding thorny subjects like genetics is imperative, otherwise it creates a vacuum that gets filled by extremism.
 

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