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Thread: Linear Gutian (Formerly known as Linear Elamite) was deciphered, an IE language

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    could you develop and say how and when, concerning Iberia Y-R1b?
    These IEs could have come from 5000 BC to 3000 BC. The Yamnayans only spread R1b-Z2103 with their migrations in BA, the Steppe admixture is solely from CWC yet IEs too had some I.Neolithic admixture which is confused with the ANE admixture of Yamnayans to give Steppe ancestry higher percentages say around 15% more. If we see the Steppe admixture maps it's spread is from East to West which correlates well with CWC yet R1b lineage's is in West.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    These IEs could have come from 5000 BC to 3000 BC. The Yamnayans only spread R1b-Z2103 with their migrations in BA, the Steppe admixture is solely from CWC yet IEs too had some I.Neolithic admixture which is confused with the ANE admixture of Yamnayans to give Steppe ancestry higher percentages say around 15% more. If we see the Steppe admixture maps it's spread is from East to West which correlates well with CWC yet R1b lineage's is in West.
    I don't know what is this I.Neolithic, I suppose it's Iranlike?
    So, scientists are mistaking Iranlike auDNA because of common ANE elements with Steppics? I live this aspect for later.
    But concerning Y-R1b and West Europe, I think the downstreams of M269 came from East. Nothing proves their apparition in Iberia before the 3000 BC, maybe well before 2600. We wait proofs. some possible branched trail of R1b-L51 and immediate downstreams (P312 at least) SNP's around Central Europe could take form, entering N-Italy and S-France, and N-E or E-Spain. It could have appeared a bit later in SC Portugal. Even DF27, so common in Iberia, and surely from East there, is considered as very recent, around the 2200's BC. The variety is strong around Catalunya and N-Valencia (this last region showed some L51 and L11 as Lisbon region). The Basque DF27 is less variant as Central Spain and Andalusia (which could show the reconquista from North to South is in cause for this less variety, when otherwise the direction seem having been E

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    sorry: "I leave ..."
    follow:
    ... been from East to West in Iberia. As BB pottery is very older (3000/2800 BC in Portugal) we can have doubts about Y-R1b post M269 as launchers of the culture. Maybe are they only adopters of some prestige artefacts? All the way their origin in Western Europe seems rather late. Their "EEF" is to be analyzed more precisely even if we can assume they took a lot from Iberian pops at Final Calcholithic.
    Concerning "BB's" (what sort?), their auDNA varies widely according to place and even to time. Some forumers elswhere remarked the mtDNA of first BB's (which ones?) was more eastern shifted, then after it became more western shifted. I don't know if it concerns all of them, it's doubious. Someones seem supposing it was because first BB's ("bachelors"?) from SW took CWC females at first, and then, after to settle their network they could have send females from SW Europe. Possible but...? It could also show they send steppic females with them before mating with other ones? All the way, the Y-haplo story shows they came rather recently from East with fast encrease (in haplo's dominance, not by force in so strong demography) and were not settled in West since long time. A possible hypothesis is the first Y-R1b to come in touch with genuine BB "potters" were of the DF27 family (maybe only upstream at first), before they spread aspects of this culture to cousins, the other Y-R1b-P312 descendants, more in North,before later expansions. This deserves deeper analysis about DF27 subclades periods of expansion.

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    Knowing if first R1b-L23 were already IE speakers is another question.
    More than a date could check the IE languages adoption in West. Someone say that the toponymy/hydronymy of N-E SPain in the later Iberian culture lands are of IE origin. Si I would easily buy the idea that western IE archaic dialects were spoken in Iberia and the Great isles (Britain Ireland) at since the 2500's, often in association with the strongest of the BB culture even if not from initial BB culture. It could correspond to proto-Lusitanian, proto-Ligurian, Northwest-IE, even proto-Celtic and proto-Italic, proto-Venetic and Proto-IE Rhaetic (not the etrusc-like) or a common stage of these last ones. A large sprachbund among not-IE languages of autochtones. NO way to be too affirmative because other periods, as IA, could have send these IE languages, in absence od writings, but in general hydronymy is not a bad marker of elderness. Iberian culture doensn't seem born in NE SPain, rather in E-SE I think. In NE it overtook over Aquitanians and Ligurians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Knowing if first R1b-L23 were already IE speakers is another question.
    More than a date could check the IE languages adoption in West. Someone say that the toponymy/hydronymy of N-E SPain in the later Iberian culture lands are of IE origin. Si I would easily buy the idea that western IE archaic dialects were spoken in Iberia and the Great isles (Britain Ireland) at since the 2500's, often in association with the strongest of the BB culture even if not from initial BB culture. It could correspond to proto-Lusitanian, proto-Ligurian, Northwest-IE, even proto-Celtic and proto-Italic, proto-Venetic and Proto-IE Rhaetic (not the etrusc-like) or a common stage of these last ones. A large sprachbund among not-IE languages of autochtones. NO way to be too affirmative because other periods, as IA, could have send these IE languages, in absence od writings, but in general hydronymy is not a bad marker of elderness. Iberian culture doensn't seem born in NE SPain, rather in E-SE I think. In NE it overtook over Aquitanians and Ligurians.
    Yes indeed without ancient dna its just speculation using the current data so there must be more research done in this area.

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    Just so you know about the next chapters of this never-ending fantastic story, he is now all over the question & answer social network Quora making questions about his own theory and answering them on his own to further spread his, hum, scientific hypothesis and even present it as a widely accepted and already established scientific understanding on the matter... Tsk tsk tsk.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Yes because Southern europeans get their Yamnaya admixture from CWC only via BB+ very little Yamnaya-like admixture from IE, IMO R1b folks had the same admixture as EEF+I.Neolithic and they came not from Steppe but from Southeastern Europe(Balkans) this theory which was earlier explored by Scientists before being dropped in favour of the Steppe theory is now making more sense. I am saying the EEF admixture in modern Europeans could be majorly from R1b folks this explains why there's so much R1b in Iberia yet very little Steppe admixture.
    What's very little to you? Iberia has ~20-25% steppe admixture all over it, and as the 2018 study on more than 300 aDNA samples showed it had even quite a bit more (certainly more than 30%) until the Iron Age. That isn't very little considering the those with most steppe admixture these days do not have any more than 50%. Thre is also the "little" problem that R1b-M269, which is by far prevalent in Iberia now, only seems to have increased to become a major lineage there right when a lot of steppe ancestry arrived with Eastern BB folks (and no, it's not proven that it was via CWC, though that hypothesis is under discussion).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What's very little to you? Iberia has ~20-25% steppe admixture all over it, and as the 2018 study on more than 300 aDNA samples showed it had even quite a bit more (certainly more than 30%) until the Iron Age. That isn't very little considering the those with most steppe admixture these days do not have any more than 50%. Thre is also the "little" problem that R1b-M269, which is by far prevalent in Iberia now, only seems to have increased to become a major lineage there right when a lot of steppe ancestry arrived with Eastern BB folks (and no, it's not proven that it was via CWC, though that hypothesis is under discussion).
    Yet if my theory of R1b being from Southeast europe hence with(Farmer admixture+minority I.Neo) then this 20-25% steppe admixture will be lowered to around 10% because around half of ANE, CHG admixture could be from IEs only half from CWC via BB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Thre is also the "little" problem that R1b-M269, which is by far prevalent in Iberia now, only seems to have increased to become a major lineage there right when a lot of steppe ancestry arrived with Eastern BB folks (and no, it's not proven that it was via CWC, though that hypothesis is under discussion).
    Yes Steppe people settled only Balkans at the same time as BB folks arrived to W.Europe from Balkans" Could they have been displaced by Yamnayans in the Balkans" according to my theory. We know from ancient samples that BB were not exactly the same as CWC or Yamnayans Ydna-wise so they could be from S.balkans region displaced by Yamnayans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Yes Steppe people settled only Balkans at the same time as BB folks arrived to W.Europe from Balkans" Could they have been displaced by Yamnayans in the Balkans" according to my theory. We know from ancient samples that BB were not exactly the same as CWC or Yamnayans Ydna-wise so they could be from S.balkans region displaced by Yamnayans.
    I considered this possibility of Balkans origin (rather Carpathians in my one thought) but
    1- it seems the ancient Y-R1b lineages of Balkans were faded out -
    2- the geographically closer source could be in W-Ukraine, so if not previous PIE, IE-ized people - What is not disproved is that they could have entered Balkans at some stage, here I'm sure of nothing -
    3- We have no evident record that other full clans attached to some Y-haplo lineage should have covered a so large part of Europe when fleeing!!! Clan(s) in a so weak situation refuging themselves and just after becoming whole Western Europe masters?
    + anDNA is of some help, but it is not sufficient to found linguistic total evidence, never.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Just so you know about the next chapters of this never-ending fantastic story, he is now all over the question & answer social network Quora making questions about his own theory and answering them on his own to further spread his, hum, scientific hypothesis and even present it as a widely accepted and already established scientific understanding on the matter... Tsk tsk tsk.
    You're serious?

    Thankfully, anyone worth their salt will see his theory is simply his own wishful thinking and complete hogwash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Yet if my theory of R1b being from Southeast europe hence with(Farmer admixture+minority I.Neo) then this 20-25% steppe admixture will be lowered to around 10% because around half of ANE, CHG admixture could be from IEs only half from CWC via BB.
    What's the genetic basis for your theory? Is there any Southeastern European population in the Neolithic before the first migrations out of the steppe (beginning in the Chalcolithic with Suvorovo-Novodanilovka) that you have in mind and would explain that overestimation of steppe admixture? There are already quite a few aDNA samples from there. Besides, ANE in EHG, CHG and INF would have introgressed, mixed and drifted for probably more than one dozen of millennia by the Late Neolithic era, and the particular EHG-CHG mix found in the steppes would've evolved on its own for a few millennia, drifting to form its own DNA makeup, too. And that's not to mention that EHG, CHG and INF weren't made up of ANE solely. I'm quite sure you wouldn't be that likely to mistake those pretty distinct admixtures (maybe CHG and INF, and that's just because of lack of more aDNA), particularly now that we have reasonably good aDNA proxies for most of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    You're serious?

    Thankfully, anyone worth their salt will see his theory is simply his own wishful thinking and complete hogwash.
    Yep. He hasn't been very successful in spreading his gospel as far as I have read. Let's hope it keeps that way.

    https://www.quora.com/profile/Mojtaba-Shahmiri

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    Ugh. The constant attempts to convince people that his theory has any merit is so mind-numbing. I see in many of his "answers" he blatantly cherry-picks or ignores certain data to fit his nonsense. I'm surprised someone with his alleged credentials would be so dishonest, but I shouldn't be surprised seems to be par for the course these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What's the genetic basis for your theory? Is there any Southeastern European population in the Neolithic before the first migrations out of the steppe (beginning in the Chalcolithic with Suvorovo-Novodanilovka) that you have in mind and would explain that overestimation of steppe admixture? There are already quite a few aDNA samples from there. Besides, ANE in EHG, CHG and INF would have introgressed, mixed and drifted for probably more than one dozen of millennia by the Late Neolithic era, and the particular EHG-CHG mix found in the steppes would've evolved on its own for a few millennia, drifting to form its own DNA makeup, too. And that's not to mention that EHG, CHG and INF weren't made up of ANE solely. I'm quite sure you wouldn't be that likely to mistake those pretty distinct admixtures (maybe CHG and INF, and that's just because of lack of more aDNA), particularly now that we have reasonably good aDNA proxies for most of them.
    The ANE/CHG admixture in modern Europeans are viewed as being from Steppe because they say no other population in europe had these admixtures in BA when IEs migrate to W.Europe but I am saying if you see for example Greek samples from late neolithic and BA they too have these signature ANE/CHG admixtures so why these populations cannot be modern european's source of ANE admixture too beside CWC.

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