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Thread: How CHG did look like?

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    How CHG did look like?

    I've seen reconstructions about WHG, yamnayas, ANE, neolithic farmers, etc but I haven't see yet a reconstruction of the CHG

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    If the origin of this ancestral group in the Caucasus-Iranian area were actually ascertained, I'd bet with sufficient peace of mind that their members looked very close to the current peoples of those regions. Instinctively I'm thinking of guys like Chechen President Dudaev or Freddie Mercury, who was of Pharsi ancestry

    images.jpegmercury.jpg

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Georgians are the modern group with the highest CHG component.



    So, I guess, they would probably look similar to these people:






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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Georgians are the modern group with the highest CHG component.



    So, I guess, they would probably look similar to these people:





    I agree.
    Pretty beautiful, amazing CHG ladies

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    according to Laziridis CHG = Dzudzuana admixed with ANE
    and Dzudzuana = WHG admixed with Basal Eurasian
    Dzudzuana is the major component in Natufian and in Anatolian Neolithic

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    Just a bit of advice: use Iran HG/neolithic and CHG as different components. As far as CHG are concerned, only a broken skull and a single bone in another sample are the known cases. As far as Iran HGs are concerned- there was variation in them, but they were generally cromagnid with a variation of slender (Hotu cave female 2) to stocky form (Hotu cave female 3). I would say that proto-Iranid is a good approximation but the skull of Hotu cave female 2 looks more Eurafricanid -unreduced compared to modern Eurafricanids of course- than proto-Iranid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aleph View Post
    Just a bit of advice: use Iran HG/neolithic and CHG as different components.


    Iran_Neo doesn't seem to eat up any of their CHG component (Imer), it seems to dig into the Natufian.

    Also, I don't take seriously the pseudoscience of craniometry classification, I am sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post


    Iran_Neo doesn't seem to eat up any of their CHG component (Imer), it seems to dig into the Natufian.

    Also, I don't take seriously the pseudoscience of craniometry classification, I am sorry.

    you are a smart man

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    according to Laziridis CHG = Dzudzuana admixed with ANE
    and Dzudzuana = WHG admixed with Basal Eurasian
    Dzudzuana is the major component in Natufian and in Anatolian Neolithic
    Dzudzuana= WHG admixed with Basal Eurasian or more like Basal Eurasian admixed with WHG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post


    Iran_Neo doesn't seem to eat up any of their CHG component (Imer), it seems to dig into the Natufian.

    Also, I don't take seriously the pseudoscience of craniometry classification, I am sorry.
    Yes typically there is a little Iran neolithic on the side in Caucasus just like there is a little bit of CHG on the side in Iran and Iraq. As far as craniometry is concerned, that part of my post is a descriptor for the skulls in question. Modern day Georgians are considerably more brachycephalized than the old Maykop people of the Caucasus who were generally dolichocephalic, so CHG wouldn't look exactly like Georgians (as opposed to what you claimed earlier on). We don't have complete CHG skulls, so Maykop might have been the closest approximation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aleph View Post
    so CHG wouldn't look exactly like Georgians (as opposed to what you claimed earlier on). We don't have complete CHG skulls, so Maykop might have been the closest approximation.
    I didn't claim that they looked exactly like Georgians. I wrote and I quote (you can just scroll up to verify) that they would probably look similar to these people.

    Better brush up your reading comprehension skills. And I really don't care about your personal investment in this or for your obvious predispositions (i.e. craniometry classification of humans made by racist ideologues).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    Dzudzuana= WHG admixed with Basal Eurasian or more like Basal Eurasian admixed with WHG?
    if I remember well, Dzudzuana is 72 % WHG + 28 % Basal Eurasian

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if I remember well, Dzudzuana is 72 % WHG + 28 % Basal Eurasian

    Yes that is what is reported there. But I wonder who was this WHG population? Does that mean that Gravettians were already WHG like ( Villabruna like) . Because Dzudzuana is something like 10000 years older than Villabruna IIRC.

    Because also Anatolian hunter gather were modeled the same way AHG= 75% WHG + 25% Basal.

    So it seems all western eurasian populations were one way or the other WHG derived because also

    Natufians= 50% WHG+ 50% Basal and
    EHG= 40/50% WHG and the rest ANE

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Yes that is what is reported there. But I wonder who was this WHG population? Does that mean that Gravettians were already WHG like ( Villabruna like) . Because Dzudzuana is something like 10000 years older than Villabruna IIRC.
    Because also Anatolian hunter gather were modeled the same way AHG= 75% WHG + 25% Basal.
    So it seems all western eurasian populations were one way or the other WHG derived because also
    Natufians= 50% WHG+ 50% Basal and
    EHG= 40/50% WHG and the rest ANE
    the Vestonice gravettian cluster was admixed with Sungir-like DNA
    there must have been gravettians who remained unadmixed WHG, because their descendants, the Villabruna was unadmixed WHG

    IMO, WHG = haplo IJ
    after split, I = Gravettian, WHG in it's unadmaxid form (Villabruna)

    I think the IJ split happened in Transcaucasia, which was inhabited by modern humans since 42 ka.
    From there I went to Mezmaiskaya Cave, NW Caucasus, which was inhabited by modern humans since 39 ka.

    In Transcaucasia, J was also WHG, it first admixed with Basal Eurasian (26 ka Dzudzuana) and later with ANE to form the 13 ka epigravettian Satsurblia CHG

    In eastern Europe, R1b-L754 ANE admixed with the pure, unadmixed WHG to form EHG

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Vestonice gravettian cluster was admixed with Sungir-like DNA
    there must have been gravettians who remained unadmixed WHG, because their descendants, the Villabruna was unadmixed WHG

    IMO, WHG = haplo IJ
    after split, I = Gravettian, WHG in it's unadmaxid form (Villabruna)

    I think the IJ split happened in Transcaucasia, which was inhabited by modern humans since 42 ka.
    From there I went to Mezmaiskaya Cave, NW Caucasus, which was inhabited by modern humans since 39 ka.

    In Transcaucasia, J was also WHG, it first admixed with Basal Eurasian (26 ka Dzudzuana) and later with ANE to form the 13 ka epigravettian Satsurblia CHG

    In eastern Europe, R1b-L754 ANE admixed with the pure, unadmixed WHG to form EHG
    so basically all modern westeurasian populations are heavy WHG admixed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Vestonice gravettian cluster was admixed with Sungir-like DNA
    there must have been gravettians who remained unadmixed WHG, because their descendants, the Villabruna was unadmixed WHG

    IMO, WHG = haplo IJ
    after split, I = Gravettian, WHG in it's unadmaxid form (Villabruna)

    I think the IJ split happened in Transcaucasia, which was inhabited by modern humans since 42 ka.
    From there I went to Mezmaiskaya Cave, NW Caucasus, which was inhabited by modern humans since 39 ka.

    In Transcaucasia, J was also WHG, it first admixed with Basal Eurasian (26 ka Dzudzuana) and later with ANE to form the 13 ka epigravettian Satsurblia CHG

    In eastern Europe, R1b-L754 ANE admixed with the pure, unadmixed WHG to form EHG
    maybe also R1b comes from the WHG......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    so basically all modern westeurasian populations are heavy WHG admixed?

    if linguistic science will ever prove there is a nostratic proto language I think we maybe found the founding population.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    maybe also R1b comes from the WHG......
    you might have a point :)
    the villabruna dude himself was r1b ...
    but from a distant branch from that found in modern day europeans today

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    I didn't claim that they looked exactly like Georgians. I wrote and I quote (you can just scroll up to verify) that they would probably look similar to these people.
    Fair enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Yes that is what is reported there. But I wonder who was this WHG population? Does that mean that Gravettians were already WHG like ( Villabruna like) . Because Dzudzuana is something like 10000 years older than Villabruna IIRC.

    Because also Anatolian hunter gather were modeled the same way AHG= 75% WHG + 25% Basal.

    So it seems all western eurasian populations were one way or the other WHG derived because also

    Natufians= 50% WHG+ 50% Basal and
    EHG= 40/50% WHG and the rest ANE
    Given how it was substantially present in both western Asia and in Europe, and how there was an east to west movement of this type of ancestry within stone age Europe, I would guess that they would have come from somewhere in the Balkans.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Vestonice gravettian cluster was admixed with Sungir-like DNA
    there must have been gravettians who remained unadmixed WHG, because their descendants, the Villabruna was unadmixed WHG

    IMO, WHG = haplo IJ
    after split, I = Gravettian, WHG in it's unadmaxid form (Villabruna)

    I think the IJ split happened in Transcaucasia, which was inhabited by modern humans since 42 ka.
    From there I went to Mezmaiskaya Cave, NW Caucasus, which was inhabited by modern humans since 39 ka.

    In Transcaucasia, J was also WHG, it first admixed with Basal Eurasian (26 ka Dzudzuana) and later with ANE to form the 13 ka epigravettian Satsurblia CHG

    In eastern Europe, R1b-L754 ANE admixed with the pure, unadmixed WHG to form EHG
    Was Villabruna 1 really unadmixed? He had an ANE yDNA lineage. I would have thought that grotta continenza would be a better example of an unadmixed WHG.
    "sample": "ITA_Villabruna:Average",
    "fit": 3.8737,
    "ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso": 91.67,
    "RUS_AfontovaGora3": 8.33

    This is a better fit than using Grotta Continenza only.

    "sample": "ITA_Villabruna:Average",
    "fit": 5.5318,
    "ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso": 100



    Speaking of J, just to be sure, is there an argument or evidence which excludes basal Eurasians as a source?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    I didn't claim that they looked exactly like Georgians. I wrote and I quote (you can just scroll up to verify) that they would probably look similar to these people.

    Better brush up your reading comprehension skills. And I really don't care about your personal investment in this or for your obvious predispositions (i.e. craniometry classification of humans made by racist ideologues).
    Who is racist, did you say? observation is one thing, classification an other thing. Classification was a try to understand the composition and story of population, at those times, and all the scholars invested then in this kind of research were not racists. (very often they were pluridisciplinary), if a lot was naive enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Who is racist, did you say? observation is one thing, classification an other thing. Classification was a try to understand the composition and story of population, at those times, and all the scholars invested then in this kind of research were not racists. (very often they were pluridisciplinary), if a lot was naive enough.
    Sorry, physical anthropology based on craniometry readings and classification of humans in 'races' (i.e. alpine, med, nordic, armenoid, and the rest of the jargon of racialism) is pure pseudo-scientific racism, constructed to provide the pillars of white supremacist theories.

    Coon's own work was used to justify the segregation and suppression of civil rights of African Americans until the Civil Rights movement put an end to it in the 1960s, and Coon himself was forced to resign from the American Association of Anthropologists.

    Not my problem you can't see how all of this is nothing but racist garbage.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Sorry, physical anthropology based on craniometry readings and classification of humans in 'races' (i.e. alpine, med, nordic, armenoid, and the rest of the jargon of racialism) is pure pseudo-scientific racism, constructed to provide the pillars of white supremacist theories.

    Coon's own work was used to justify the segregation and suppression of civil rights of African Americans until the Civil Rights movement put an end to it in the 1960s, and Coon himself was forced to resign from the American Association of Anthropologists.

    Not my problem you can't see how all of this is nothing but racist garbage.
    Change your freaking tone, and stop with the insults or you're going to get a heap of infractions. Moesan is a respected member here.

    You can express your disbelief in traditional physical anthropology in a civil way.


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    Quote Originally Posted by aleph View Post
    Was Villabruna 1 really unadmixed? He had an ANE yDNA lineage. I would have thought that grotta continenza would be a better example of an unadmixed WHG.
    "sample": "ITA_Villabruna:Average",
    "fit": 3.8737,
    "ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso": 91.67,
    "RUS_AfontovaGora3": 8.33

    This is a better fit than using Grotta Continenza only.

    "sample": "ITA_Villabruna:Average",
    "fit": 5.5318,
    "ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso": 100



    Speaking of J, just to be sure, is there an argument or evidence which excludes basal Eurasians as a source?
    It's not about the Villabruna sample, it is about the Villabruna cluster, which is 80 % haplo I2.

    check the Fu 2016 paper
    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17993

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17993

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