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View Poll Results: Where did Dalmatian skull cult originate?

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  • Dalmatian skull cult originated in Iron Gates

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Thread: E-L618/V13 and skull cult

  1. #1
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    E-L618/V13 and skull cult

    So from Cardial Dalmatian Early Neolithic, Middle Neolithic to Late Neolithic and even likely/possibly BA Cetina culture many things changed except one thing: the existence of a skull cult, various separate skull finds etc. This was already mentioned by archaeologist Alojz Benac in 1960.

    The question is what is the origin of this cult. Natufians were E1b1b and in PPNB skulls were venerated, plastered. However also skull cult was prominent in Iron Gates mesolithic culture. Dalmatian skulls were not plastered.

    In Mesolithic Crvena Stijena (near Montenegrin-Bosnian border) site, some parallels to Capsian and Iberomaurisian culture were noted by the same archaeologist, they had parallels with Iron Gates as well, so this cult could have arrived from Iron Gates..

    3 Dalmatian early Cardial samples had minor Iberomaurisian-like component (which might be Natufian as they were 27 % Iberomaurisian) and they had also minor WHG element, one female sample having multiple blue-eye mutations etc.

    As more L618 branches are now profiled it seems more likely E-L618 might not be Neolithic, but rather of Capsian origin.
    E-L618>BY28614>FGC11429 Dane
    E-L618>BY28614>BY125469 Saudi, Algerian
    E-L618>BY28614>BY125469>FT148887 Albanian
    E-L618>BY6578 Latvia, Lebanon (TMRCA 4800 ybp)

    And what looks to be presence of skull cult in Cetina culture can be used as an additional, maybe even clear evidence of E-V13 being carriers of that culture.
    Poll added!

    E-L618 = skull occultists.
    E-V13 = warlike skull occultists.

  2. #2
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    Sesklo and Dimini might also be important for origin of EV13, and how it relates to Proto-IE.


    While a bit outdated, there is possibly relevant info that seems to have been forgotten in this paper on greek ydna (link at bottom).


    We find the highest EV13 (35%, 20/57 samples), and also the highest J2b-m241 in Sesklo/Dimini. (page 3)


    This site shows a warlike people that invades violently and begins fortifications around 5000BC.


    The Dimini culture overtakes the Sesklo one, and the culture they bring has Danubian parallels.


    It is also where Kretschmer argued the "Pelasgian" (Indo European as he argued) language came from:








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    "Figure 6 shows that long bones and skullswere selectively removed. Although it is notpossible to state with any certainty what themissing bones were used for, it has long beenknown that Capsian groups modified humanbones either for utilitarian or ritual purposes.The ‘trophy skull’ found at Faı¨d Souar II inAlgeria in 1954 (Vallois, 1971), which has theappearance of a mask, suggests a ritual purposefor skull removal."

    "Skull removal, or at least separate burial ofcrania, is known in the Iberomaurusian (Arambourg, 1934; Hachi, 1996) and has also beenfound for Late Natufian and PPNA sites in thesouth-central Levant (Kuijt, 1996)."


    Hmm, I might vote other, so separate skull burial occurred among Iberomaurisians and Capsians!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Sesklo and Dimini might also be important for origin of EV13, and how it relates to Proto-IE.


    While a bit outdated, there is possibly relevant info that seems to have been forgotten in this paper on greek ydna (link at bottom).


    We find the highest EV13 (35%, 20/57 samples), and also the highest J2b-m241 in Sesklo/Dimini. (page 3)


    This site shows a warlike people that invades violently and begins fortifications around 5000BC.


    The Dimini culture overtakes the Sesklo one, and the culture they bring has Danubian parallels.
    Sesklo and Dimini should be part of "normal" neolithic wave. I've seen one Neolithic burial which had elevated autosomal North African influence so I will look at where he belonged.

    But if its about origin:
    "Skull removal, or at least separate burial of crania, is known in the Iberomaurusian (Arambourg, 1934; Hachi, 1996)


    For those Maghreb sites at which burials are well documented (e.g., Afalou-bou-Rhummel (Arambourg, 1934; Hachi, 1996)"

    Personally, I guess I'd prefer some Afalou-Iron-Gates mixture than boring EEF gracile Meds. The question is whether E-L618 is Neolithic arrival with EEF's or it came from North Africa. From L618 samples one can't say that it came from the Middle East, even this Saudi might descend from Algeria where he has a cousin (still both might have arrived from Europe).

    As you know all Iberomaurisian Taforalt finds were E-M78.

    "Pelasgian" was considered IE by many. I already spoke that some V13 clades might be related to Philistines and Sea Peoples, Philistines had IE names, and one was R-M269+.

  5. #5
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    Dimini is intrusive and from the north. So could L618 have come from north africa, up into central europe and down as ev13

  6. #6
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    Only sesklo is part of the normal neolithic wave. It was burned down and destroyed by the dimini culture

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    G-L91 fella from Kleitos, Greece roughly corresponds to the late Dimini phase where supposedly the historical Pelasgians lived. So in all likelihood they were typical farmers, linguistically speaking.

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