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Thread: Ancient Pannonians and Ancient Illyrians....I2 and E-V13

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    Ancient Pannonians and Ancient Illyrians....I2 and E-V13

    Classical Greco-Roman autors (eg Livius, Strabo, Velleius Paterculus, Plinius Maior, Tacitus in Germania, Appianus, Cassius Dio ... etc ...) mention particular ethnic community in the Western Balkans, the Pannonian basin and central Europe as Pannonians (Παννόνιοι; Pannonii). As Pannonians, these authors mention the following peoples: Amantini (eastern Slavonia and western Srijem), Breuci (eastern Slavonia and northeastern Bosnia), Colapiani (around the Kupa River), Daesitiates (upper Bosnia), Pirustae (northern Montenegro), Delmatae (central Dalmatia , western Bosnia), Maezaei (northwestern Bosnia), Segestani (around Siscia), Oseriates (northern Bosnia and central Slavonia), Ditiones (northern Dalmatia, western Bosnia, Lika) ... etc .... Strabon (VII, 5 , 3) referring to the time of the Great Illyrian Uprising from 6 to 9 AD. n. e.: ἔθνη δ ἐστὶ τῶν Παννονίων Βρεῦκοι καὶ Ἀνδιζήτιοι καὶ Διτίωνες καὶ Πειροῦσται καὶ Μαζαῖοι καὶ Δαισιτιᾶται, ὧν Βάτων ἡγεμών ( "The peoples of Pannonia are: Breuci, Andisetes, Ditiones, Pirustae, Maezaei and Daesitiates, whose leader is Baton").
    Archeology connects Pannonians with migration of the bearers of late-bronze age Urnfield culture during XII. century BC, and because domino effect which was transformed into sea – peoples migration. In western Balkans, it can be assumed that some of the Iron Age cultures, such as the Middle Bosnian culture and the Middle Dalmatian, are of pannonian origin. Unlike them, continuity from the Bronze age in Iron Age has Glasinac - Mati culture, and peoples such as Autariates, Ardiaei, Daorsi, Taulantii, Dardanians, Messapi… etc… These cultures and peoples should not be considered Pannonians, but should be included in the same group with „ Illyrians in the truest sense“ (Illyrii proprie dicti).
    The problem of pannonian relations with these peoples which have a continuity with Bronze Age Balkans, is the fact that they were already grouped together in the era of classical civilization into an Illyrian ethnic complex and called Illyrians, which is also transmitted to modern mainstream. Perhaps the reason is that the Pannonian („Northern and western Illyrians“) and „Southern Illyrians“ spoke the same or similar languages or dialects. Eg. they give the same names (Bato, Teuta, Pleurat, Scerdilaida). This could perhaps be explained by language assimilation or linguistic mixing during the Late Bronze Age and Old Iron Age.
    The Pannonians that would come from Central Europe and the Middle Danube area and the "Illyrians" who originated in the Bronze Age Balkans would differ in genetic origin. The Pannonians would thus be mostly I2a1, and the "Illyrians" of Bronze Age origin would carry the Neolithic and Bronze Age haplogroups, especially E1b1b - V13. This would also explain the considerable presence of I2 in Central and Eastern Europe.

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    I2 in the Balkans comes almost completely from Slavic tribes settling there from the 6th century on.

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    I-Y3120 except Bastarnic I-Y18331 is Slavic.

    Some E-V13 might be related to Pannonians, such as E-L241 clades. They likely belong to a substrate that was assimilated by the incoming R-U152 proto-Pannonian Illyrians.

    You should learn what is your V13 clade. Some clades occurring in Herzegovina thus far have certain Medieval (likely Vlach) origin from the Southeast direction, such as E-PH1173 (found also in one Bosniak from Herzegovina), and E-Y128213 (West Herzegovina Croats, Serbs from various areas). These clades have nothing to do with Illyrians, while some E-Y37092*'s, E-L241's found in the area might easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I-Y3120 except Bastarnic I-Y18331 is Slavic.

    Some E-V13 might be related to Pannonians, such as E-L241 clades. They likely belong to a substrate that was assimilated by the incoming R-U152 proto-Pannonian Illyrians.

    You should learn what is your V13 clade. Some clades occurring in Herzegovina thus far have certain Medieval (likely Vlach) origin from the Southeast direction, such as E-PH1173 (found also in one Bosniak from Herzegovina), and E-Y128213 (West Herzegovina Croats, Serbs from various areas). These clades have nothing to do with Illyrians, while some E-Y37092*'s, E-L241's found in the area might easily.
    U152 proto-Panonian Illyrians, any evidence for that or is that another wild guess of yours?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    U152 proto-Panonian Illyrians, any evidence for that or is that another wild guess of yours?
    I try not to make wild guesses. And strong Urnfield Central European influence is well attested in Delmato-Pannonian areas, archaeologically and genetically:

    R-BY32273 Serb from Northeast Bosnia.
    R-U152*, Serb, East Herzegovina, L2-, Z56-, Z192-, Y17161-, A7969-, S8024-. CTS5531, CTS4562, Y22447 still not done.
    R-Y4354, Vlach Ugarak clan from East Herzegovina, Travunia, as well as Vlach Zotovic clan. Not related to Bulgarian R-BY184991, some distant R-Y4354 are also found in Greece, these might be Illyrian-Dorian connection. These really have no matches anywhere.
    R-S14469 , Bosniak from Mostar, Herzegovina
    R-L2>FGC13617 Montenegrin, Serb from East Serbia (admin), Gheg ALB250fta, Kerkyra Greek
    R-Y91536 , Montenegrin Brda tribe Moracani Bogicevci, from Hoti area by tradition, but per some documents one of them recently presented might be more likely from the Koplik area originally.

    This is already some serious U152 diversity. They have no close ties to their cousins, usually way above 3000 ybp. I thought R-Y91536 is more likely Roman, but as you can see they are not related to anybody else and there is Slovenian R-Z37* with TMRCA of 3500 ybp so this fits better into Urnfield.
    And Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro are not some historically Celtic areas.

    So 6 isolated U152 clades in the West-Balkans. More than enough to suggest these are descended of Urnfield movement. These might have linguistically formed the Delmato-Pannonian Illyrian complex. Whereas the "classical" Illyrian areas to the Southeast in Albania is where there is less U152 and much more J-L283, and these likely remained uninfluenced by the Urndield Illyrian wave. This is well attested in archaeology whereas in Pannonian complex the new Urnfield practice of cremation dominates in "classical" Illyrian areas the inhumation was dominant (J-L283 cultures all practiced inhumation).

    There was that autosomally Northern Illyrian from Montenegro, but the coverage was bad, when I first saw him I thought he fits into these Central European newcomers who were likely "Celtic-like".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    So 6 isolated U152 clades in the West-Balkans. More than enough to suggest these are descended of Urnfield movement.
    These clades split around 2400 BC, or 1000-2000 years before Urnfield. You need a 3000-3500 year old clade with a diverse cluster concentrated in this area. Most of the results you mentioned are scattered U152 who could more recent arrivals from further west. No way to know without NGS or aDNA. R-Z37 is the likeliest candidate, but other than that, there is no proof of anything related to Urnfield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I try not to make wild guesses. And strong Urnfield Central European influence is well attested in Delmato-Pannonian areas, archaeologically and genetically:

    R-BY32273 Serb from Northeast Bosnia.
    R-U152*, Serb, East Herzegovina, L2-, Z56-, Z192-, Y17161-, A7969-, S8024-. CTS5531, CTS4562, Y22447 still not done.
    R-Y4354, Vlach Ugarak clan from East Herzegovina, Travunia, as well as Vlach Zotovic clan. Not related to Bulgarian R-BY184991, some distant R-Y4354 are also found in Greece, these might be Illyrian-Dorian connection. These really have no matches anywhere.
    R-S14469 , Bosniak from Mostar, Herzegovina
    R-L2>FGC13617 Montenegrin, Serb from East Serbia (admin), Gheg ALB250fta, Kerkyra Greek
    R-Y91536 , Montenegrin Brda tribe Moracani Bogicevci, from Hoti area by tradition, but per some documents one of them recently presented might be more likely from the Koplik area originally.

    This is already some serious U152 diversity. They have no close ties to their cousins, usually way above 3000 ybp. I thought R-Y91536 is more likely Roman, but as you can see they are not related to anybody else and there is Slovenian R-Z37* with TMRCA of 3500 ybp so this fits better into Urnfield.
    And Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro are not some historically Celtic areas.

    So 6 isolated U152 clades in the West-Balkans. More than enough to suggest these are descended of Urnfield movement. These might have linguistically formed the Delmato-Pannonian Illyrian complex. Whereas the "classical" Illyrian areas to the Southeast in Albania is where there is less U152 and much more J-L283, and these likely remained uninfluenced by the Urndield Illyrian wave. This is well attested in archaeology whereas in Pannonian complex the new Urnfield practice of cremation dominates in "classical" Illyrian areas the inhumation was dominant (J-L283 cultures all practiced inhumation).

    There was that autosomally Northern Illyrian from Montenegro, but the coverage was bad, when I first saw him I thought he fits into these Central European newcomers who were likely "Celtic-like".
    I think this one is out there


    Culturally sure, but genetically definitely nothing has been attested as of yet. Few Serbs, a Montenegrin and an obscure Vlah tribe belonging to odd U152 branches are far from being evidence in this case. Some of that could have even come with Slavs for all we know LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I try not to make wild guesses. And strong Urnfield Central European influence is well attested in Delmato-Pannonian areas, archaeologically and genetically:

    R-BY32273 Serb from Northeast Bosnia.
    R-U152*, Serb, East Herzegovina, L2-, Z56-, Z192-, Y17161-, A7969-, S8024-. CTS5531, CTS4562, Y22447 still not done.
    R-Y4354, Vlach Ugarak clan from East Herzegovina, Travunia, as well as Vlach Zotovic clan. Not related to Bulgarian R-BY184991, some distant R-Y4354 are also found in Greece, these might be Illyrian-Dorian connection. These really have no matches anywhere.
    R-S14469 , Bosniak from Mostar, Herzegovina
    R-L2>FGC13617 Montenegrin, Serb from East Serbia (admin), Gheg ALB250fta, Kerkyra Greek
    R-Y91536 , Montenegrin Brda tribe Moracani Bogicevci, from Hoti area by tradition, but per some documents one of them recently presented might be more likely from the Koplik area originally.

    This is already some serious U152 diversity. They have no close ties to their cousins, usually way above 3000 ybp. I thought R-Y91536 is more likely Roman, but as you can see they are not related to anybody else and there is Slovenian R-Z37* with TMRCA of 3500 ybp so this fits better into Urnfield.
    And Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro are not some historically Celtic areas.

    So 6 isolated U152 clades in the West-Balkans. More than enough to suggest these are descended of Urnfield movement. These might have linguistically formed the Delmato-Pannonian Illyrian complex. Whereas the "classical" Illyrian areas to the Southeast in Albania is where there is less U152 and much more J-L283, and these likely remained uninfluenced by the Urndield Illyrian wave. This is well attested in archaeology whereas in Pannonian complex the new Urnfield practice of cremation dominates in "classical" Illyrian areas the inhumation was dominant (J-L283 cultures all practiced inhumation).

    There was that autosomally Northern Illyrian from Montenegro, but the coverage was bad, when I first saw him I thought he fits into these Central European newcomers who were likely "Celtic-like".


    why nothing about the italian movement from map ?
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I2 in the Balkans comes almost completely from Slavic tribes settling there from the 6th century on.
    The same speculation year after year. Let us see the evidence!

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    Big news from YFull, the first non-Greek Balkan male was found in I2a-Y18331, from Albania. Very interesting.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    https://www.academia.edu/1806476/Pannonians_Identity-perceptions_from_the_late_Iron_Age_to_later_antiqu ity

    This paper will discuss ancient Pannonian identity-narratives and their transformations until Late Antiquity.

    As far as we know, Pannonian identity rst appears in the
    written sources as an outsider’s depiction of the indigenous
    communities living in what will become Roman southern
    Pannonia and northern Dalmatia. After the Roman conquest,
    the narratives of Pannonianess become more complex and
    develop into what we can today see as a set of different

    outside labels, and internal self-perceptions relating to the
    roman province(s) of Pannonia, their regions, and individual
    communities. The focal point will be, in tune with this whole volume, Pannonian narratives from the southern parts of the province. It is impossible to treat Pannonian

    identities here in full detail – such an encompassing study
    would need a whole monograph, rather than just a singlechapter. What we offer here is more an outline of the
    different identity-narratives rather than a full and thorough
    exploration of all available sources.



    https://www.persee.fr/doc/dha_0755-7..._num_40_2_3944

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    During rule of princeps Nero (54. – 68. AD) in province Illyricum Superior/Dalmatia was carried out census of local populations, which results one can find in Pliny the Elder (Naturalis Historia, III, 141. - 143). In tables from article "Plinijevske peregrinske civitates na prostoru današnje Bosne i Hercegovine“ Vjesnik za arheologiju i povijest dalmatinsku, Vol.104, Split, 2011, p. 68. it is estimated population size of many of civitates peregrinae in this province. These numbers show that this population could not be totally replaced with Slavs and Avars during VII. century AD., and that I2 is not only slavic.
    This article can be found at academia profile of professor Mesihović Salmedin, who is author.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Big news from YFull, the first non-Greek Balkan male was found in I2a-Y18331, from Albania. Very interesting.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/
    He is a Tosk Albanian if I am not mistaken. I could be wrong though. Also I assume the new Russian sample under I-A7134* is a Chuvash(going by region name).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I-Y3120 except Bastarnic I-Y18331 is Slavic.
    Could you explain the relation between Y18331 and Bastarnae ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    Could you explain the relation between Y18331 and Bastarnae ?
    There is no relation between Y18331 and Bastarnae.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    Could you explain the relation between Y18331 and Bastarnae ?
    @Leki too

    There is almost certainly a relationship between the entire I-Y3120 and Bastarnae. I-CTS10228* is found in France, and I think another one from West Germany appeared recently. All upstream clades are from NW Europe as is all Ancient DNA evidence.

    So the question is how would a fundamentally West European clade become fundamentally an East European clade?

    According to archaeological evidence Bastarnae were an early offshoot of proto-Germanic Jastorf culture who migrated Eastwards centuries before the main Germanic wave. They had Celtic influences too.

    M. B. Shchukin
    The second half of the work analyses a possibility to archaeologically identify the Bastarnae of II‐I centuries B. C. Parallels are drawn between Poianesti‐Lucaseuca and Zarubintsy cultures and the Bastarnae. The image of both the cultures differs very much of the local ones, finding at the same time direct analogues in the cultures of Elbe‐Oder region. The Poianesti‐Lucaseuca sites cease in the middle of the I century B.C., probably due to Eastern raids of Getic king Burebista. Only a few sites of the same culture (Bucovina and Middle Dniester regions) continued existing in I century A. D. (Bernaseuca, Velikaya Slobodka, Rudi). Zarubintsy culture stopped developing approximately in the middle of the I century A. D. Its fall is explained by the activity of Sarmatians who penetrated into the Ukrainian forest and steppe regions. Affected by such circumstances, Zarubintsy culture is transformed into post‐Zarubintsy culture situated outside of its previous areal (Desna river, Bryansk woods, left tributaries of the Dnieper – Seim and Lovati, Smolensk and Upper Lovati regions). Most likely the Northern‐Eastern part of this new cultural formation of the Bastarnae was called later the Venedi by Plinius’ and Tacitus’ informants. At the same time, part of Zarubintsy population migrates to the West, to the region of the Upper Dniester and Western Boug, where Zubra group of sites is formed. This very group which existed till the III century A. D. can be related to the “late Bastarnae” mentioned in the epitaph of Plautius Silvanus and later among the members of Goth raids of 248 and 269 years.


    Zarubintsy culture is usually considered crucial for the Slavic ethnogenesis. In this culture Bastarnae element got mixed with the Pommeranian culture (mainly R-M458) and Milograd culture (R-Z280) elements to form proto-Slavs. Both Bastarnae cultures ended under Sarmatian, Dacian, Roman pressure. Poianesti‐Lucaseuca (non-Slavic) remnants also fled to West Ukraine where some of Zarubintsy elements fled. This might explain so much I-Y3120 in South Slavs.

    I-Y18331 descend most likely from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanian-Bastarnae_war , Some 30,000 Bastarnae started moving to Dardania, while others returned home. They reached Dardania in autumn of 179 BC...
    Ice started cracking and almost all Bastarnae soldiers died. Their leader, Clondicus, survived


    You've got 5 separate Greek clades under Y18331 with a TMRCA of 2100 ybp. So many Bastarnae moved to the South back then, it is reasonable that they would have descendants as there were survivors too. They were allied with the King Phillip V of Macedon in this endeavor, so it is reasonable to assume the survivors would have been settled in Greek areas. So they might have a claim on being Ancient Greek for one or few decades (until the Romans took over).
    I-Y18331*
    I-Y18331>Y158862
    I-Y18331>A2512*
    I-Y18331>A2512>A7134
    I-Y18331>A2512>A10959>Y66192

    There is really absolutely other way to explain the I-Y3120 other than the Bastarnae (ofc logically whey would have carried some other lineages too).

    So I-Y18331 is 100 % not Slavic being descended of a pure Bastarnae culture at the time of separation (from Poianesti‐Lucaseuca).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    I think this one is out there

    Culturally sure, but genetically definitely nothing has been attested as of yet. Few Serbs, a Montenegrin and an obscure Vlah tribe belonging to odd U152 branches are far from being evidence in this case. Some of that could have even come with Slavs for all we know LMAO
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    These clades split around 2400 BC, or 1000-2000 years before Urnfield. You need a 3000-3500 year old clade with a diverse cluster concentrated in this area. Most of the results you mentioned are scattered U152 who could more recent arrivals from further west. No way to know without NGS or aDNA. R-Z37 is the likeliest candidate, but other than that, there is no proof of anything related to Urnfield.

    Well Iron Age Latins did not follow your requirement necessarily, because Central Europe was loaded with countless U152 clades, so when the migrations were commencing various unrelated peoples ended up being part of it.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6389/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF90/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2118/
    U152>L2>ZZ48>ZZ56>F10530>PR5365


    So similarly clades I mentioned are serious candidates. R-Y4354 is found in Herzegovina Vlach clans that are 700 years old (one being Zotović ). Found in Greece, and it seems in Crete, the R1b spike there might have been due to this clade per STR's I saw. It is also found in a place where Unrfield element was rumored to have pushed the Dorians to the South.. These clusters are not profiled yet but they are distant to current clades.


    R-L2>FGC13617 is very isolated, I believe it does not even have any members other than Balkan people at FTDNA!! (Montenerin and Greek), plus it occurs in a Gheg too. The area where it is common corresponds to core Illyrian areas.

    R-S14469 Bosniak from Herzegovina, I'm not sure how distant he is to the others but I do know he doesn't closely cluster with the others.


    R-BY32273 might be recent with Slavs even or might not be, based upon his distance to these cousins. I have no idea how distant he is.


    And another U152* from Herzegovina, we wait for their position on the tree..


    R-Y91536 does have a Slovenian relative in MBA so yes they seem like a candidate, one of these tried to connect a name "Jean" in Koplik area to their recent Medieval arrival but if that was the case they would have likely clustered closely with some Westerners, and wouldn't have this Slovenian distant cousin.


    I would say L2>FGC13617, R-L2>Y4354 and R-Y91536 have a stronger case.

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