Early replacement of West Eurasian male Y chromosomes from the east

torzio said:
We show that phylogenetic analyses of haplogroup C, D and FT sequences, including very rare deep-rooting lineages, together with phylogeographic analyses of ancient and present-day non-African Y-chromosomes, all point to East/South-east Asia as the origin 50,000-55,000 years ago of all known non-African male lineages (apart from recent migrants). This implies that the initial Y lineages in populations between Africa and eastern Asia have been entirely replaced by lineages from the east, contrasting with the expectations of the serial-founder model8,9, and thus informing and constraining models of the initial expansion.
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A problem with this hypothesis is the lack of Denisovan admixture in West Asia, North Africa and Europe in either modern or ancient DNA. Some level of Denisovan admixture is found in all East Asian populations. There is evidence that Denisovan populations in South East Asia, Siberia and New Guinea interbred with modern humans in the 55-40 kya period. If there were westward migrations of Y haplogroups from East/South East Asia back to West Asia and Europe, how had these people uniquely avoided interbreeding with Denisovans? The authors mentioned Neanderthal admixture, but noticeably avoided mentioning Denisovan admixture, perhaps because they're aware of this flaw in their theory.
 
Ygorcs said:
Then what haplogroups would've every male outside of East or Southeast Asia belonged to before 50-55kya? The study seems to argue C, D and F (FT) all arose there, so what remains for all the rest of the primeval out-of-Africa population? If E is supposedly African, and C, D and F arose in the same one region in East Eurasia, then, well, every other lineage arose, expanded and then just disappeared? AFAIK all even oldest aDNA samples belonged to one of those haplogroups (C, D or F), no surprises there. The replacement must've been pretty dramatic and (historically) fast then.
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That's why I have my doubts on this paper.
 
Tamakore said:
This paper seems to be the latest Chinese attempt to deny the out-of-Africa origin of modern humans and keep the multiregional theory alive. So all Y chromosome haplogroups, including A and B, originated in East Asia, not Africa? Really? The paper needs some serious peer review by experts not in the employ of the Chinese government.
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The paper is just special pleading after special pleading.

Tamakore said:
A problem with this hypothesis is the lack of Denisovan admixture in West Asia, North Africa and Europe in either modern or ancient DNA. Some level of Denisovan admixture is found in all East Asian populations. There is evidence that Denisovan populations in South East Asia, Siberia and New Guinea interbred with modern humans in the 55-40 kya period. If there were westward migrations of Y haplogroups from East/South East Asia back to West Asia and Europe, how had these people uniquely avoided interbreeding with Denisovans? The authors mentioned Neanderthal admixture, but noticeably avoided mentioning Denisovan admixture, perhaps because they're aware of this flaw in their theory.
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Its a massive flaw in their theory.
 
Ygorcs said:
Unlikely as Basal Eurasians never mixed with Neanderthals. I'd rather think Basal Eurasians stayed in the Arabian Peninsula and/or southern Iran whereas other groups moved further to South Asia or even as far as Southeast Asia. But I find that difficult to reconcile with the idea that all the Y-DNA lineages found in all of Eurasia would come only from those who went to S-SE Asia, when the impact of BE ancestry was so large in the Paleolithic and Mesolithic West Eurasia. No trace at all of their paternal lineages? That'd be a bit surprising.
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Its not likely at all.

I1a3_Young said:
There is one sample of IJ* in the world per the FTDNA tree (none on YFull).

It's in Sri Lanka.

A look at H distribution is also a clue. Besides H-P96 which came to Europe (tmrca 16,000), it's widespread in India/Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, and some in the middle east.

Haplo G is not really relevant because it's like I-M253, a one lineage survivor of a much older lineage. There's not enough info due to lack of relevant time info. The one surviving lineage was probably in the Caucasus but we have no info prior.

L is in the far east and middle east but has a 20k year gap in SNP tmrca.

T is similar. An old formation but a 20k year gap.

P* sample is from the Andaman islands.


Once again I think the authors have it right.

1. Small pulse out of Africa
2. That small pulse populated the entire rest of the world from SE Asia
3. There was subsequent back and forth with Africa such as exit of E-V13 and intro of R1b-V88

There could have been a small pocket of basal Eurasian but that probably isn't a good descriptive term because they were not basal to existing groups to the east. They were probably a different pulse out of Africa. If so, they were wiped out prior to the expansion from the east or were completely erased by it. I doubt that a hunter/gatherer culture wiped any human populations out, just my opinion.

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Does it matter where that one sample is? It could have got there from somewhere else and how do we know it wan't distributed elsewhere in the Paleolithic?

Also does anyone actually think the ancestors of Andaman Islanders 30 ybp managed to somehow make it to North Eurasia?

bicicleur said:
there is IJ* in 32 ka Vestonice, the Sri Lanka sample, it is very odd
indeed H2 is a split off from H in India, just like G, a one lineage survivor of a much older lineage.
I wouldn't be surprised if G also originated in India.
IMO the main expansion happened from India/Pakistan, not the far east
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We consider K2 having diversified in SE Asia due to its diversity there but the diversity of G is ignored? Its not in India but probably E.Turkey/South Caucasus/NW Iran.

jose luis said:
Check this out:
https://www.livescience.com/10340-lost-civilization-existed-beneath-persian-gulf.html
https://www.ancient-origins.net/hum...iest-humans-existed-africa-what-forced-021390

I have posted some of this before but unreadable due to a big mistake: What arguments exist for basal eurasians not to be this population of the Persian gulf/oasis surrounded by deserts and isolated from Neanderthals, (Neanderthals only reached the headwaters of the tiger and euphrates rivers), which perhaps even reduced to slavery where they sought refuge in Iran, Levant and Egypt, (archaic agriculture and grinding require a lot of labor and are very painful ), saw their y chromosomes replaced (or almost replaced) by those of the already settled populations there , as is normally the case for disadvantaged populations. The origin of agriculture in the Persian Gulf with a radiation to the Levant populations independent of radiation to the Iran populations may explain both being farmers without having mixed their genes.This Persian gulf population may also help explain some of the questions that still remain about the initial diversification of human haplogroups. The Bible states that the garden of Eden was in Mesopotamia, phaps this prolongation by the gulf was the truly paradisiacal part.
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This makes sense to me.

Ygorcs said:
It also strikes me as more likely that what happened is that virtually all non-Africans, except BE, migrated very switfly through the coast of Arabia and from the Levant to the Gulf, leaving few people along the way, and through the Iranian coast they reached South Asia and started to thrive there. It would also make sense of the early division between West Eurasians and East Eurasians, since South Asia is just to the south of a massive barrier dividing West Eurasia from East Eurasia. It'd make sense people split by moving northwestward and northeastward from there.

Moreiver, I have sometimes wondered if the very big gap between the origin of G and its TMRCA could be a signal of the Basal Eurasians, having separated early from the other non-Africans. It's basically restricted to where BE made a difference in the local gene pool beginning even before the LGM. Or is its dating to 48.5 ybp too late for that possibility?
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Interesting. I've heard the archaeology supports y K migrating to North Asia from West Asia, modern diversity supports a migration from SE Asia. What supports India? Also would India be East or West Eurasian in your scenario? And how would you envision the migration fo y K?
 
jose luis said:
It is not level 0 of the truth.

The book:


https://pt.scribd.com/document/402847461/Sundaland-Tracing-the-Cradle-of-Civilizations


The Andamans do not have Denisova DNA, populations related to them may have been the first to find this 2nd Africa (the extension of Sundaland's savannah belt was comparable to African savannahs).
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Given how primitive they are even today I'm surprised that their ancestors (K2b/P) possibly managed to get to North Eurasia and wipe out the existing male population.
 
A sandwich between advancing glaciers and populations entrenched in the south?
 
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