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Thread: education and PISA ranking

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    education and PISA ranking



    I'm sorry, the article is in Dutch

    https://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/k...box=1576238527

    the PISA ranking measures the skills and knowledge of students all over the world in order to compare education systems

    it started in 2000
    Finland, Korea and Japan scored the highest
    where students in Korea and Japan have to work very hard and be very disciplined, students in Finland have lots of freedom
    that is why Finland became the worldwide model
    Countries all over the world have tried to copy the Finnish model
    today Finland and all it's imitators dropped dramatically in the PISA ranking
    there is one exception : Estonia, which adopted the Finnish model when they became undependant

    researchers become aware that school results are not only a matter of what happens in school, it is related to the culture and the attitudes of the whole population
    when PISA results drop, the discrepancy between poor and rich kids becomes larger, and immigrant children are the worst
    immigration tends to lower the PISA results of the whole of a country, not only of the immigrant children

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    I saw an interesting analysis of the data where white American children outscore everyone in the world except the Chinese, and the scores of the latter are undoubtedly doctored.

    So much for the American education system being sub-standard, especially in math and science.

    The problem is the low scores for minority students, and it's a huge problem for this country.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I saw an interesting analysis of the data where white American children outscore everyone in the world except the Chinese, and the scores of the latter are undoubtedly doctored.
    So much for the American education system being sub-standard, especially in math and science.
    The problem is the low scores for minority students, and it's a huge problem for this country.
    I think that is the story of the PISA investigation.
    In 2000 it started with the intention to find the best school education system in the world.
    Now they found that education and culture at home and in the neighbourhood is more important than school education itself to achieve the best results.

    For those white American children, I wonder wether you can differentiate between succesfull parents or the ones that lost their jobs.
    Do the children of the latter drop to the level of minority students, or maybe even lower, or do they still reach the level of the children from succesfull parents?

    Because of the PISA 2000 model, which wrongfully favoured the Finnish model and was promoted by the leftists, the education systems in Belgium and Europe were changed for the worst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I'm sorry, the article is in Dutch

    https://www.knack.be/nieuws/belgie/k...box=1576238527

    the PISA ranking measures the skills and knowledge of students all over the world in order to compare education systems

    it started in 2000
    Finland, Korea and Japan scored the highest
    where students in Korea and Japan have to work very hard and be very disciplined, students in Finland have lots of freedom
    that is why Finland became the worldwide model
    Countries all over the world have tried to copy the Finnish model
    today Finland and all it's imitators dropped dramatically in the PISA ranking
    there is one exception : Estonia, which adopted the Finnish model when they became undependant

    researchers become aware that school results are not only a matter of what happens in school, it is related to the culture and the attitudes of the whole population
    when PISA results drop, the discrepancy between poor and rich kids becomes larger, and immigrant children are the worst
    immigration tends to lower the PISA results of the whole of a country, not only of the immigrant children
    I think overall this test is an indicator of school strength in particular countries. My country this year was way down the list, which to my opinion reflected the reality of weakness in our school system. The problem is science is not advanced by society as a whole, but by particular individuals. Behind any big or small project is one mind, or a small group of minds and this is where some western countries have advantages.
    I do not believe that in USA the cause of discrepancy in grades between races is poverty. I have an example in N Y City. The school name is "Grover Cleveland" in Queens. School was failing in all defections. When Romanians and Poles were arriving the area as new emigrants, in 2005 not only school was out of the failing area but was hard to get in if you did not leave in the area. non of new arriving emigrants was rich. Wealth is not entirely without merit though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I think overall this test is an indicator of school strength in particular countries. My country this year was way down the list, which to my opinion reflected the reality of weakness in our school system. The problem is science is not advanced by society as a whole, but by particular individuals. Behind any big or small project is one mind, or a small group of minds and this is where some western countries have advantages.
    I do not believe that in USA the cause of discrepancy in grades between races is poverty. I have an example in N Y City. The school name is "Grover Cleveland" in Queens. School was failing in all defections. When Romanians and Poles were arriving the area as new emigrants, in 2005 not only school was out of the failing area but was hard to get in if you did not leave in the area. non of new arriving emigrants was rich. Wealth is not entirely without merit though!
    the division is not about being rich or poor

    it is more about being ambitious or not

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I think that is the story of the PISA investigation.
    In 2000 it started with the intention to find the best school education system in the world.
    Now they found that education and culture at home and in the neighbourhood is more important than school education itself to achieve the best results.
    For those white American children, I wonder wether you can differentiate between succesfull parents or the ones that lost their jobs.
    Do the children of the latter drop to the level of minority students, or maybe even lower, or do they still reach the level of the children from succesfull parents?
    Because of the PISA 2000 model, which wrongfully favoured the Finnish model and was promoted by the leftists, the education systems in Belgium and Europe were changed for the worst.
    I think the education system definitely matters. They've had to dumb down the SAT test in this country (the test you take at the end of high school which is sent to universities with your application), for more than twenty years. Part of what happened is that the kind of strict, have the basics drummed into you in elementary school which I received was replaced by a different system. The idea, spread by psychologists, whose studies, as we all now know because of the replication crisis, cannot be trusted, was that if you just make it all interesting, they'll want to learn. It's one of the reasons that I didn't pursue a career in education. I instinctively knew that was complete bunk. Most people, except for those with an inborn love of learning for its own sake, will do basically nothing if that is permitted, or at least as little as possible.

    There's a bigger factor, however, and it's why, on these dumbed down tests, let's be clear, certain children can do better than others. That factor is genetics. It's been clear since all the identical twin studies were done. Intelligent parents will have intelligent children. It's as simple as that. The same kind of information comes from adoption studies. Adopted children match the education achievement of their birth parents, not their adoptive parents, no matter how much special tutoring or help they're given. It extends to income, as of course you'd expect. A paper came out just a week or so ago which found that eventually the income level of the adopted child reaches the level of the birth parents, not the adoptive parents, unless, of course, the adoptive parents leave money to that child.

    It's a harsh and even sad reality, but it's reality nonetheless.

    I'm not saying that some role isn't played by immigrants not speaking the language of the adopted country while at home, not being encouraged to seek out higher education etc. I'm just saying it's a minor one. I came to the U.S. speaking not a word of English, and my parents spoke Italian at home for a long time, but I was at the top of my class in English in a year.

    One worrisome paper did come out last week or so about a drop in verbal ability and attention span in children. They're not quite sure what is causing it. I have a suggestion they should test. Study scores sorted by amount of time spent watching tv and playing video games. I've got a hunch there will be a difference. Listening skills are different from speaking skills, as anyone who has studied other languages will tell you.

    My advice to new parents would be to stop putting repetitive shows on tv screens in front of your children, and stop letting them play video games. They're addictive, especially for boys, and once they're hooked you're going to have a devil of a time getting them off it. Delay letting them have them for as long as possible, and then limit it to an hour or so a day. They need to TALK, have conversation. Oh, and get them all at the table for meals, no electronics allowed, and actually engage them in conversation. A foreign language speaking nanny all their time out of school except for an hour or so is not optimal.

    Ed. Let's be clear too that it very much depends on which immigrants you're talking about when you say immigrant scores drag down the totals. Every Indian immigrant I've met has been from families which were high caste, middle class or upper class in India, and educated even there. The Chinese immigrants from Hong Kong and the mainland who come are all from families which were high achievers back home. Add to that their work ethic and family pressure and it's obvious they'd do very well in schools here. The Vietnamese boat people, on the other hand, are on the bottom of the deck. As for all our Mexican and Central American and Korean migrants, do you think middle class people from educated families are swimming the Rio Grande? So, no, Razib, all those high scoring Indian children here are not a testament to how much smarter Indians are than white Americans. Everybody has a blind spot it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Every Indian immigrant I've met has been from families which were high caste, middle class or upper class in India, and educated even there. The Chinese immigrants from Hong Kong and the mainland who come are all from families which were high achievers back home. Add to that their work ethic and family pressure and it's obvious they'd do very well in schools here.
    the same applies to some extent to the white immigrants who arrived in the U.S. the "white" group there might also be pulled up through similar factors.

    but can you give the article or study in which they found that white americans outscore everyone in the world?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    the same probably applies to the white immigrants who arrived in the U.S.
    It depends on the group and the area. Georgia was first settled by convicts, the inland mountainous areas of the south by poorer people from Scotland, the Border areas of England and Scotland, and Ulster. Indentured servants went everywhere.

    However, the Tidewater of the South also got a lot of middle class people and even the Gentry, a lot of whom got land grants from the King. In New England it was mostly middle class people and artisans, although some gentry came too. Many of them were highly literate and educated.That's because they came for reasons of religious persecution. The same was true for Maryland (Catholics) and Pennsylvania (Quakers) and Rhode Island (everyone, including Jews). The first Germans to arrive were brought by William Penn to Pennsylvania; they were mostly hardworking farmers and artisans. He deliberately sought out what he called "superior types", although he thought they were inferior to the British and "very dark" compared to the latter. He was mostly in the Palatinate. A good percentage of the German immigration of the 19th century, a lot of which went to the Midwest, was also not of the destitute; a good number came for political reasons.

    The only migrations which were predominantly of often illiterate, unskilled, extremely poor people at the bottom of the rung, were the Irish migration after the potato famine, and the Southern Italian and non-Jewish Eastern European migrations at the very end of the 19th century and the early decades of the twentieth century.

    So, it was a mix, but weighted, I think, toward people at least in the middle of the scale. Also, in any country which has been kept down by the system, you're going to have people at the bottom who have ability but just were never given the opportunity.

    Ed. It was in a blog post. I'll try to find it.

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    The thing that you have to realize is that a university education in India and China is highly competitive affair. The entrance exams are murderous and you get the best of the best as far as the entrance criteria is concerned. A lot of those high achievers come to the US either as graduate students or as professionals. But remember they were selected according to how well they did in their entrance exams. If creativity or new ideas are prized these would probably not be the kind of people you want.

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