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Thread: Consanguineous marriages leading to fractionalization and corruption

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    Consanguineous marriages leading to fractionalization and corruption



    See:
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...67268119302355

    "We examine the roots of variation in corruption across societies, and we argue that marriage practices and family structure are an important, overlooked determinant of corruption. By shaping patterns of relatedness and interaction, marriage practices influence the relative returns to norms of nepotism/favoritism versus norms of impartial cooperation. In-marriage (e.g. consanguineous marriage) generates fractionalization because it yields relatively closed groups of related individuals and thereby encourages favoritism and corruption. Out-marriage creates a relatively open society with increased interaction between non-relatives and strangers, thereby encouraging impartiality. We report a robust association between in-marriage practices and corruption both across countries and within countries. Instrumental variables estimates exploiting historical variation in preferred marriage practices and in exposure to the Catholic Church’s family policies provide evidence that the relationship could be causal."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    See:
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...67268119302355

    "We examine the roots of variation in corruption across societies, and we argue that marriage practices and family structure are an important, overlooked determinant of corruption. By shaping patterns of relatedness and interaction, marriage practices influence the relative returns to norms of nepotism/favoritism versus norms of impartial cooperation. In-marriage (e.g. consanguineous marriage) generates fractionalization because it yields relatively closed groups of related individuals and thereby encourages favoritism and corruption. Out-marriage creates a relatively open society with increased interaction between non-relatives and strangers, thereby encouraging impartiality. We report a robust association between in-marriage practices and corruption both across countries and within countries. Instrumental variables estimates exploiting historical variation in preferred marriage practices and in exposure to the Catholic Church’s family policies provide evidence that the relationship could be causal."
    Well Angela, what I can comment about this theme on is only what I know.


    The "traditional families" of Minas Gerais State, Brazil, are all descendants of the 600,000 Portuguese settlers who arrived in the state in 1750 to take control of the gold mines in the name of the Portuguese crown, removing control of the gold mines from hands of the "paulista" (from the State of São paulo) pathfinders (called "Bandeirantes") on the grounds that they were smuggling gold and the Portuguese Crown was being harmed (this fact was true). In addition, these portuguese newcomers were responsible for the creation of public administration and the establishment of state control bodies following the formal rules of administration adopted by the Portuguese Crown, to whom they were directly subordinated. The fact was that the "Bandeirantes" no longer had any use. They had already done the dirty work of exterminating the Indians, discovering the mines, and beginning the exploration of gold. The "Bandeirantes" who submitted to the newcomers were incorporated into the new society. I need not say what happened to those who did not submitted yourselfs.


    In fact, the members of this newly born Minas society (which did not include slaves, of course) aimed to maintain strict control over everything (state, economy, wealth, tax collection, law enforcement, relations with Catholic clergy, with the Portuguese crown, etc.) and, since then, they only married between them, most often in arranged marriages. Obviously today marriages are no longer arranged, but as they continue, at least inland the State, relating only in the same closed group, inbred marriages still continue to exist. The exceptions are only in the big cities of the State, Belo Horizonte among them.


    My state is called Minas Gerais, but for the traditional families of Minas, "Gerais" does not exist, because they are territories that have been incorporated into the State throughout history and were not part of the original colonial nucleus formed by the ancient and centenarian colonial cities, located in the mountains of the State.


    For these families, only exists the State of Minas.

    Cheers :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Well Angela, what I can comment about this theme on is only what I know.


    The "traditional families" of Minas Gerais State, Brazil, are all descendants of the 600,000 Portuguese settlers who arrived in the state in 1750 to take control of the gold mines in the name of the Portuguese crown, removing control of the gold mines from hands of the "paulista" (from the State of São paulo) pathfinders (called "Bandeirantes") on the grounds that they were smuggling gold and the Portuguese Crown was being harmed (this fact was true). In addition, these portuguese newcomers were responsible for the creation of public administration and the establishment of state control bodies following the formal rules of administration adopted by the Portuguese Crown, to whom they were directly subordinated. The fact was that the "Bandeirantes" no longer had any use. They had already done the dirty work of exterminating the Indians, discovering the mines, and beginning the exploration of gold. The "Bandeirantes" who submitted to the newcomers were incorporated into the new society. I need not say what happened to those who did not submitted yourselfs.


    In fact, the members of this newly born Minas society (which did not include slaves, of course) aimed to maintain strict control over everything (state, economy, wealth, tax collection, law enforcement, relations with Catholic clergy, with the Portuguese crown, etc.) and, since then, they only married between them, most often in arranged marriages. Obviously today marriages are no longer arranged, but as they continue, at least inland the State, relating only in the same closed group, inbred marriages still continue to exist. The exceptions are only in the big cities of the State, Belo Horizonte among them.


    My state is called Minas Gerais, but for the traditional families of Minas, "Gerais" does not exist, because they are territories that have been incorporated into the State throughout history and were not part of the original colonial nucleus formed by the ancient and centenarian colonial cities, located in the mountains of the State.


    For these families, only exists the State of Minas.

    Cheers :)
    I think the study was looking at "clan" based societies, and an obvious example is the countries of the Middle East, Caucasus, North Africa etc., where there are a great many consanguineous first cousin marriages, and particularly of the father's brother's daughter type.

    It lends itself to corruption, and weakens any democracy that might be struggling to be born.

    You do find it elsewhere, however, as in certain places in the Balkans, and places in far southern Italy at one time also had tendencies in that direction.

    I don't know whether the Brazilian situation is analogous. You would know better.

    This is becoming a very popular way of differentiating between Europe, and, in fact, really, specifically Northwest Europe and other areas. More non-consanguineous marriages, more cooperation between non-related families, leads to more "individualism", more civic responsibility, more fairness, more democracy. A lot is credited, for example, to the manorial system in certain parts of northwest Europe, where non-related people had to work together. It is correlated with the Hajnal Line.

    The "core" areas to this day share a high standard of living, although other areas also can claim that, both within and outside of Italy.


    See:
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2014/...e-hajnal-line/


    Like a lot of one answer explanations for a myriad of issues, I think it's an oversimplification. Family structure doesn't perfectly correlate with the Hajnal Line, for example.






    As another example, a lot of this depends on how you define "individualism". By some definitions the Scandinavians and at least the West Germans are supposedly very "individualistic" countries, but in my opinion are actually highly conformist and group oriented. Scandinavia, for example, has its It's just that their "group", the group to which they conform, is larger than the extended family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As another example, a lot of this depends on how you define "individualism". By some definitions the Scandinavians and at least the West Germans are supposedly very "individualistic" countries, but in my opinion are actually highly conformist and group oriented. Scandinavia, for example, has its It's just that their "group", the group to which they conform, is larger than the extended family.
    In my opinion it is especially countries with a strong Celtic substrate that are individualistic. That includes Britain, Ireland, the Benelux, France, Switzerland and northern Italy. Or perhaps the fusion of Italo-Celtic and Germanic ancestry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    In my opinion it is especially countries with a strong Celtic substrate that are individualistic. That includes Britain, Ireland, the Benelux, France, Switzerland and northern Italy. Or perhaps the fusion of Italo-Celtic and Germanic ancestry.
    west and south germany would be a celtic germanic mix like the Benelux countries. though i don't think that is an argument against your hypothesis since those regions are quite individualist imo. a better argument would probably be finland and sweden which are very individualistic too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    As another example, a lot of this depends on how you define "individualism". By some definitions the Scandinavians and at least the West Germans are supposedly very "individualistic" countries, but in my opinion are actually highly conformist and group oriented. Scandinavia, for example, has its It's just that their "group", the group to which they conform, is larger than the extended family.
    what would be the basis of the "group" in west germany or scandinavia in your opinion?

    for some it is just the family/clan, for nationalists it is the nation, for racists it's the ethnicity and for "individualists" it's certain cultural aspects, or other mindsets that are not tied to geography or heritage and are way less dominant and more complex. and imo compared to other parts of europe, west germany has a relatively high amount of people who fall into the "individualist" category more than in the others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    what would be the basis of the "group" in west germany or scandinavia in your opinion?

    for some it is just the family/clan, for nationalists it is the nation, for racists it's the ethnicity and for "individualists" it's certain cultural aspects, or other mindsets that are not tied to geography or heritage and are way less dominant and more complex. and imo compared to other parts of europe, west germany has a relatively high amount of people who fall into the "individualist" category more than in the others.
    I think you will find that in the future as in the past, the "GROUP" for all Germans is Germans, although as we have now discovered, "Germans" are much more heterogeneous than they ever imagined. It seems that if you didn't look too different you were just "Germanized" into the group culturally.

    The process in France to wipe out regional differences was also, imo, extreme, but much less tied to phenotype.

    As for Scandinavians, see :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante


    As with all such sociological reductions, it's probably a stereotype, but I think the basics are sound.

    We have a whole thread on the topic:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

    To get back to the topic of the thread, if you believe everyone who looks like you and speaks your language and follows your religion and shares your values is "kin", you're less likely to cheat them. That's what it boils down to, I think, which is all very well and good if you're inclusive about who can belong to the group. If not, the consequences are dire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think the study was looking at "clan" based societies, and an obvious example is the countries of the Middle East, Caucasus, North Africa etc., where there are a great many consanguineous first cousin marriages, and particularly of the father's brother's daughter type.

    It lends itself to corruption, and weakens any democracy that might be struggling to be born.

    You do find it elsewhere, however, as in certain places in the Balkans, and places in far southern Italy at one time also had tendencies in that direction.

    I don't know whether the Brazilian situation is analogous. You would know better.

    This is becoming a very popular way of differentiating between Europe, and, in fact, really, specifically Northwest Europe and other areas. More non-consanguineous marriages, more cooperation between non-related families, leads to more "individualism", more civic responsibility, more fairness, more democracy. A lot is credited, for example, to the manorial system in certain parts of northwest Europe, where non-related people had to work together. It is correlated with the Hajnal Line.

    The "core" areas to this day share a high standard of living, although other areas also can claim that, both within and outside of Italy.


    See:
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2014/...e-hajnal-line/


    Like a lot of one answer explanations for a myriad of issues, I think it's an oversimplification. Family structure doesn't perfectly correlate with the Hajnal Line, for example.






    As another example, a lot of this depends on how you define "individualism". By some definitions the Scandinavians and at least the West Germans are supposedly very "individualistic" countries, but in my opinion are actually highly conformist and group oriented. Scandinavia, for example, has its It's just that their "group", the group to which they conform, is larger than the extended family.
    Thanks for the clarifications, Angela. I believe that in Brazil the situation never resembled that of the clans of the Middle East or North Africa. Inbreeding in the inland of the country is much more due to the lack of option of partners from other regions. In the specific case of the State of Minas Gerais, due to isolation, especially after the decline of the gold cycle. The State was isolated from the rest of the country by mountains and forests. Obviously, wealthier families preferred everything to be happen in the own family and, for that, nothing better than cousin marriages. Cheers :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think you will find that in the future as in the past, the "GROUP" for all Germans is Germans, although as we have now discovered, "Germans" are much more heterogeneous than they ever imagined.
    "ALL" germans, are you so sure about it? even in the future? i don't find it in the present among many germans.

    and i could say the same about spain or north italy. there the group is "spanish" or "north italian". and for some it's "ethnic european" but that is not better at all. it's basically the same ignorance.

    about the law of jante, i think it is good to show a certain amount of humility. if you are too individualistic you become egocentric. or you can also look at it on a group level. you will also see that your group is not special and better than others if you think like this about yourself.

    the "GROUP" is just a self projection on others imo. and the aversion towards foreign things is partially based on the believe that the own "group" is better than the strangers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    As for Scandinavians, see :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante


    As with all such sociological reductions, it's probably a stereotype, but I think the basics are sound.

    We have a whole thread on the topic:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
    when i searched for the thread i found this one. is this the one you wanted to show me?
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ned-upon/page2

    the threads discussion doesn't really come to the point that scandinavians aren't individualists. that was your opinion. there were other opinions too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post


    There is some logic in your argument that HG must be collectivists to survive, while farmers can afford to be more individualists. Yet, we observe the exact opposite in terms of ancestry.

    Southern Europeans, who have more Neolithic farmer ancestry, are the most collectivist-minded. They place a lot of importance of family and social relationships. They live in close-knit communities where people know each others, gossip a lot and privacy is limited. They have strong cultural rules about how people should cook, eat, dress or behave, and so on. When travelling abroad they usually do it in group with family, friends, or at least other people from their country. When they emigrate abroad, they like to stick with people from their country or region of origin. In southern Europe it is hard to exist without being part of the community. You can't live an anonymous life completely independent of your neighbours and family as you would in English-speaking countries, or even in the Netherlands or Scandinavia.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Very interesting, Maciamo.

    From what I learned about Southern Europe: SE collectivism/conformism comes mostly from the family. Then, most societal norms are merely derivatives of family norms, thus much less sanctioned by society than by family. If I got it right norms in SE focus on honor, heritage, family, sexuality, pride, sticking out by status. These norms are often conflicting with norms of bigger groups's, like state, city. These norms also discourage too close ties between unrelated families ("we are better than them").
    My impression is that North Europeans are much more open to socialize with foreign people or families, provided they are of similar age and culture. In their childhood, they more often distance themselves openly from their parents in order to gain status among peers. This complies with Jantelagen. I might be wrong, but South European would certainly not be proud of distancing themselves from their parents in favour of others.

    But there are huge differences within SE. My impression of northern Italy was of a very individualistic country, more than Germany and especially Denmark. Everyone cared for himself and was not interested in other peoples behavior, habits, style etc. That being said, I'm convinced that population density is the most important factor in Europe with regards to collectivism. North Italy is densely populated. I didn't spend time in italian villages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree that North Europeans do socialise more easily with outsiders and are less bound to their own family or even ethnicity. That's exactly what is meant by individualism. The focus is on individuals and when it comes to socialising it doesn't really matter what family, country or ethnic group others come from. That's what enabled English-speaking countries to become so multicultural and multi-ethnic. The Romans were a bit like that too, but modern Italians have lost that facet of individualism.


    if you do not consider scandinavians as individualists then who in europe is individualistic?

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    There's quite a bit of self-deception involved in the law of Jante, as there is in a lot of what all ethnic groups tell themselves.

    I saw a study just the other week which said a "huge" proportion of Sweden's wealth is concentrated in a very small number of families. It's just that everybody else lives well, so they either don't notice or don't care.

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    I know Europeans aren't particularly religious nowadays, but it seems to me that the countries that were/are Protestant are more individualistic and the countries that are/were Catholic more communitarian. My family is mixed between the two confessions, and the different nuclear families that make it up tend to reflect that. My father's family is not from around here (New England; he was born in California, as was his mother, while his father was born in Chicago) but on my mother's side, her father was of Protestant English Baptist origin, an only child, and not particularly close to his family except for a favored maternal uncle, while my mother's mother was from a Catholic family, one of ten children (all daughters), and very close; they would visit their parents' house every weekend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    I know Europeans aren't particularly religious nowadays, but it seems to me that the countries that were/are Protestant are more individualistic and the countries that are/were Catholic more communitarian. My family is mixed between the two confessions, and the different nuclear families that make it up tend to reflect that. My father's family is not from around here (New England; he was born in California, as was his mother, while his father was born in Chicago) but on my mother's side, her father was of Protestant English Baptist origin, an only child, and not particularly close to his family except for a favored maternal uncle, while my mother's mother was from a Catholic family, one of ten children (all daughters), and very close; they would visit their parents' house every weekend.
    I really don't think it has anything to do with religion. The Irish are Catholic yet quite individualistic, while the Spaniards are also Catholic but strongly collectivist. North Italians are more individualistic than southern Italians. Among Protestants, the Dutch are far more individualistic than Nordic people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I really don't think it has anything to do with religion. The Irish are Catholic yet quite individualistic, while the Spaniards are also Catholic but strongly collectivist. North Italians are more individualistic than southern Italians. Among Protestants, the Dutch are far more individualistic than Nordic people.
    My great grand father owned a cotton-linen-hemp combination factory ( 19th century ) and hired many single women .........they where placed in a system called el Filo
    First of all, the word «filò», which does not exist in Italian, derives from the Latin word «filatura», a word that was subject to dialectization and deformed in filò , ie fio .

    The filò was a favorable occasion for the meeting of the young, for the amorous approaches. The courted girl reserved and offered the chair to her favorite. When the relationship of "became serious, the parents of the two children, if inclined to such a meeting, gave their adhesion and the engagement became official. It must be remembered that in those days the young women were very guarded; ónór, otherwise they fell out of favor with their respective families and the scandalous news spread rapidly in the country. No indulgence was admitted! Such guilt destroyed the good name and pride of the two families.The marriage ritual was thus accelerated and carried out in a confidential manner and discharged in the morning or evening hours, without guests, nor the sound of bells, nor any other sign of joy, nor a wedding lunch, nor a dowry. Subsequently, every occasion was used to reproach the bride for the mistake made and to mortify her. reference to the moral rigor demanded in those times, a very biting act, when in the country a woman gave rise to criticism about her egno and its modesty. Unknown, at night, they removed the gate of her house, or in front of it they threw handfuls of grass or hay: these were two very serious offenses! .
    Although it is very widespread in the popular classes, it is recalled that the filò in general was not well regarded by the parish priests because it was considered an opportunity for promiscuity, gossip and murmuring;

    above is part of a document from google translation

    My family story is that when veneto was under Austria, the austrian government would also send Slovenian girls to my great-grandfather factory to be found a italian husband in the system above, they where called the Carnièl of Merlengo ( from Carnia )

    once the girls where married, they where replaced by new single girls in the factory

    I can link you the original privately.......
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    I suppose you're right, I guess I am applying Weberian hypotheses a little too far. It's just probably that I don't see societies with strong intergenerational familial bonds as individualistic.

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    A new paper on the potential consequences of first cousin marriages.

    See:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12283-6

    "In many species, the offspring of related parents suffer reduced reproductive success, a phenomenon known as inbreeding depression. In humans, the importance of this effect has remained unclear, partly because reproduction between close relatives is both rare and frequently associated with confounding social factors. Here, using genomic inbreeding coefficients (FROH) for >1.4 million individuals, we show that FROH is significantly associated (p < 0.0005) with apparently deleterious changes in 32 out of 100 traits analysed. These changes are associated with runs of homozygosity (ROH), but not with common variant homozygosity, suggesting that genetic variants associated with inbreeding depression are predominantly rare. The effect on fertility is striking: FROH equivalent to the offspring of first cousins is associated with a 55% decrease [95% CI 44–66%] in the odds of having children. Finally, the effects of FROH are confirmed within full-sibling pairs, where the variation in FROH is independent of all environmental confounding."

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