Wacky news Why are the Dutch so tall?

Angela said:
Well, I know and knew women who went by a list, i.e. Irish, Catholic, professional, athletic, reasonably good looking, is one list I remember very well bkz it was so specific. Tall was probably in there, but she had to compromise there.

It struck me then and now as so cold...

For me, it was, as we say in Italy, like "un colpo di fulmine", like getting hit by lightning. We had a tempestuous relationship, broke up, got back together, and ultimately got married. That's my only experience of "falling in love" and I never had a checklist or anything like it, so, I'm no help on this matter.

Oh, I'm 5'6 and he's 6' tall, tall enough for a perfect dance partner even if I'm wearing heels, as I always was, so that worked out, but I doubt it would have mattered if he were 5'9 or whatever. Above a certain height it always seemed to me that most men got a little uncoordinated. Not good dancers, anyway, which I was happy to find was not an issue.
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I have experienced both, women who were very superficial and interested in a tall men and then the ones who just didn't care. Where the "need" for a tall man comes from?... I guess it has to do with the most primal instincts in all of us? The best hunter ensuring our lines continue.

None of us can control what turns us on... BUT... I always like indifference as it indicates evolutionary flexibility if you will. As in: "I prefer tall, BUT... how important is it really?"
 
firetown said:
I have experienced both, women who were very superficial and interested in a tall men and then the ones who just didn't care. Where the "need" for a tall man comes from?... I guess it has to do with the most primal instincts in all of us? The best hunter ensuring our lines continue.

None of us can control what turns us on... BUT... I always like indifference as it indicates evolutionary flexibility if you will. As in: "I prefer tall, BUT... how important is it really?"
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Perhaps with height it also has to do with dominance? They make you look up to them. I have very little faith in papers by social scientists, but I do think there's something to this one.

I suppose it fits in with a muscular frame as well.

I would think, though, that in first world societies women aren't as tuned into that?

Strangely, in our societies I sometimes think it matters more to other men than to women. It's that dominance game that so many men play with one another.

Or maybe it's still in play for women too but more on a subconscious level.

It's also occurred to me that these things vary not only by culture but by time period in the same culture. As recently as the mid-twentieth century men didn't go to the gym, and so sculpted bodies a la the Riace Bronzes weren't a "thing", although a muscular build is obvious even through clothes, I suppose.

This was all certainly sub-conscious for me. Did I hone in on his height and muscular build, or his large, luminous, long lashed, beautiful eyes, the symmetry of his features, or was it the kindness and soulfulness and yet playfulness I saw in those eyes? Did I go for his "Mediterranean" coloring because my father was fair? Was part of it the "build up" provided by my friend and her constant idealization of his looks and popularity before I ever saw him? That was actually not a good move on her part. :)

I doubt the evolutionary geneticists have all the answers. I wind up thinking it's all much more complicated and mysterious than that.
 
I guess a combination of :
- nature, wasn't a recent paper pointing at Steppe influence and length, North Dutch and South Dutch, beneath the Rhine differentiated on average still 3 cm, above the Rhine the Steppe percentage is somewhat higher, in the outmost North (were I live) the people are tallest and that's an enduring factor;
- Dutch eat and drink indeed lots of milk and cheese and so on, but that's not a break after 1980 though, that has pretty deep roots;
- welfare state and quality of food can have a contribution, the obese percentage is relative quit low, after 1980 I guess the variety of cuisine is very enhanced;
- sexual selection so preference for tall man could have play apart, although the tendency to associatie it with dominance is not so plausible for me, already since the Dutch golden Age (17th) Dutch woman are known for their liberated attitude, not Tammy Wynette's.
 
I know that modern Greeks are not the tallest but I have empirically observed an increase in height due to diet richer in meat and dairy. Now my nephews are the products of average height parents so they are average height. I take after my paternal grandfather so I was 6'1". I probably would have been taller if not for my digestive problems in the first year of life). My son is 6'4" maybe even 6'5" (I have not measured him since he was 17 and he was 6'4" then). There is definitely a genetic component and an environmental component.
 
A corollary question to the OP is why are the Montenegrins so tall?
 
Northener said:
I guess a combination of :
- nature, wasn't a recent paper pointing at Steppe influence and length, North Dutch and South Dutch, beneath the Rhine differentiated on average still 3 cm, above the Rhine the Steppe percentage is somewhat higher, in the outmost North (were I live) the people are tallest and that's an enduring factor;
- Dutch eat and drink indeed lots of milk and cheese and so on, but that's not a break after 1980 though, that has pretty deep roots;
- welfare state and quality of food can have a contribution, the obese percentage is relative quit low, after 1980 I guess the variety of cuisine is very enhanced;
- sexual selection so preference for tall man could have play apart, although the tendency to associatie it with dominance is not so plausible for me, already since the Dutch golden Age (17th) Dutch woman are known for their liberated attitude, not Tammy Wynette's.
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Sexual selection is not a conscious thing. That is why this is not easily explained.
 
Perhaps for Montenegrins it's a bit easier to explain by the terrain where they live, i.e. founder effect followed by drift?

I agree that diet changes things. My son is 6'3. I thought he'd never stop growing. :) However, my husband was 6' so it hasn't been a big change. Also, my father (Ed. husband) gets his height from his Calabrian grandfather, so even in Italy those genes did show up occasionally. My brother, raised here, although we didn't and don't drink milk, is one inch taller than our father, who was 5'9, and his son is only an inch or so taller.

There's a sort of ceiling on it which is genetic, though, I think. All the most recent papers find correlations between height and about 10 or so alleles related to height. Still only just slightly over 50%, however.
 
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Angela said:
Perhaps for Montenegrins it's a bit easier to explain by the terrain where they live, i.e. founder effect followed by drift?

I agree that diet changes things. My son is 6'3. I thought he'd never stop growing. :) However, my husband was 6' so it hasn't been a big change. Also, my father gets his height from his Calabrian grandfather, so even in Italy those genes did show up occasionally. My brother, raised here, although we didn't and don't drink milk, is one inch taller than our father, who was 5'9, and his son is only an inch or so taller.

There's a sort of ceiling on it which is genetic, though, I think. All the most recent papers find correlations between height and about 10 or so alleles related to height. Still only just slightly over 50%, however.
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Recently the growth is slacken, because of nutrition?
https://netherlandsinsiders.com/are-the-dutch-the-tallest-in-the-world/

and the link about the 'shrinkage':
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...llest-people-but-theyre-shrinking-study-shows
 
firetown said:
Sexual selection is not a conscious thing. That is why this is not easily explained.
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indeed and may be this comes close:

[FONT=&quot]The Dutch are so tall due to high living standards, excellent health care, and natural selection. High living standards allowed the Dutch to afford high-quality nutrition, and their superb health care prevented many childhood diseases. In addition, tall Dutch men and women have relatively more children, further increasing average heights.[/FONT]
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Northener said:
indeed and may be this comes close:
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I recently watched a video with the North Korean lady who appeared on the Joe Rogan podcast a year ago or so and she said something like "even though we are genetically the same people, South Koreans are far taller than North Koreans". She credited it to lack of food and bad living conditions.
I look at it from another angle as well:
In well-to-do societies, women tend to go for a taller man, so next-generation-height often increases. Sometimes by a lot. Since tall people tend to weigh more and require more food, they may not be as likely to be in good physical shape when in societies where food is scarce and therefore wind up having less offspring than those who are smaller and survive better with less.
 
firetown said:
I recently watched a video with the North Korean lady who appeared on the Joe Rogan podcast a year ago or so and she said something like "even though we are genetically the same people, South Koreans are far taller than North Koreans". She credited it to lack of food and bad living conditions.
I look at it from another angle as well:
In well-to-do societies, women tend to go for a taller man, so next-generation-height often increases. Sometimes by a lot. Since tall people tend to weigh more and require more food, they may not be as likely to be in good physical shape when in societies where food is scarce and therefore wind up having less offspring than those who are smaller and survive better with less.
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That contradicts this:
In addition, tall Dutch men and women have relatively more children, further increasing average heights.
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May be there is another angle, in situation in which there is a growth in general welfare, good and accessible public health, good nutrition, a spurt in tallness is a sign of it.

The reverse is also true when general welfare is in decline combined with only the happy few have good access to health, nutrition etc the length is in decline.

You see this in the US with the recession of the seventies (end of Keynesianism) Reaganomics prevailed the length became in a fall!

This has affected the Dutch in the end too, we already lost 1 cm.....

May be a few terms of Bernie Sanders in the White House would raise the length of the US again.....:bigsmile: But may be this thought is too confronting?
 
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Northener said:
Recently the growth is slacken, because of nutrition?
https://netherlandsinsiders.com/are-the-dutch-the-tallest-in-the-world/

and the link about the 'shrinkage':
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...llest-people-but-theyre-shrinking-study-shows
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Perhaps the explanation for the Dutch overtaking other countries in height over the last 70 years is that taller Dutch men have more children on average than other Dutch men. Dutch women of average height have more children than either taller or shorter Dutch women.

In contrast, in most other Western countries shorter women have more children than average or taller women, and men of average height have more children than either taller or shorter men.

The decline in Dutch height in the last 20 years could be because of the aforementioned push-and-pull battle over height between the sexes. Maybe Dutch women, who have been disadvantaged by the male-driven increase in height for decades are finally fighting back (see first link above).
 
Tamakore said:
Perhaps the explanation for the Dutch overtaking other countries in height over the last 70 years is that taller Dutch men have more children on average than other Dutch men. Dutch women of average height have more children than either taller or shorter Dutch women.

In contrast, in most other Western countries shorter women have more children than average or taller women, and men of average height have more children than either taller or shorter men.

The decline in Dutch height in the last 20 years could be because of the aforementioned push-and-pull battle over height between the sexes. Maybe Dutch women, who have been disadvantaged by the male-driven increase in height for decades are finally fighting back (see first link above).
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Would be a whiz kid challenge, because this would be a big "breed out" of the smaller man by the taller man in just few generations....there could be an effect, but I guess this can't be the only factor....
 
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Northener said:
Would be a whiz kid challenge, because this would be a big "breed out" of the smaller man by the taller man in just few generations....there could be an effect, but I guess this can't be the only factor....
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Gert Stulp, (University of Groningen), who suggested a back-and-forth loop between slightly shorter and slightly taller generations, says that nutrition can also be a big factor. When better nutrition is driving average height upwards, that could swamp his proposed "battle of the sexes" effect.

However, all other factors being equal, the battle of the sexes effect would usually preserve average height in the long run. If a population gets shorter because of short women reproducing more, everyone is moving away from the ideal height for men. That increases the evolutionary pressure for men, so that taller men reproduce more than shorter men, pushing the height of the next generation back into the average range.
 
You have a lot of immigrants that came to the Netherlands in the 60's who are now Dutch citizens and had kids who are also now Dutch citizens such as Greeks, Turks and Italians that are shorter in stature. They probably brought the average down. I think the same thing happened in the US with the influx of immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America.
 
bigsnake49 said:
You have a lot of immigrants that came to the Netherlands in the 60's who are now Dutch citizens and had kids who are also now Dutch citizens such as Greeks, Turks and Italians that are shorter in stature. They probably brought the average down. I think the same thing happened in the US with the influx of immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America.
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The Guardian article:
“But growth also stagnated in the generations in which both parents were born in the Netherlands, and in the generations in which all four grandparents were born in the Netherlands. Men without a migration background did not get any taller and women without a migration background show a downward trend.”
 
There are so mazny factors at play:
we know already: genetics, food - but others factors are at play too: social sharing or lack of sharing, religion (number of children, anti-abort...: in not religious milieux children of whealthy people are rather scarce), sportive activities and physical work, and age of these physical activities and so on...
at one time, Dutch people were rather sharing their economic success even if it was not always ydillic, maybe with immigration some conditions are changing?
The genetic input seems confirmed by the relatively stable differences between regions of the Netherlands, which surely are more marked in countryside than in big towns.
 
Also: let's keep in mind that statures differences between males and females are not always exactly the same according to pop's.
 
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